2-stage sizing process yields very low runout

[Bob 964]

I read an article by German Salazar in which he described a 2-stage sizing process that includes both neck sizing and body sizing. Salazar shows that this approach produces ammunition that has extremely low levels of runout. For unturned brass it is better to neck size first, then body size when using this method; whereas for neck turned brass, it doesn't seem to matter whether you neck size or body size first.

I starting using this 2-stage process, first using my Lee collet die to size the neck and then using my Redding body die to size the case body and bump the shoulder. I have loaded probably 100 or so rounds using this process and none of the cartridges has (total) runout above .002", measured near the case shoulder, on the neck and on the bearing surface. The overwhelming majority of the cartridges measure in the .000" - .001" range. This is a marked improvement over any single-stage sizing process I have used.

I'm sold on this and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking to reduce measured runout.

 

[RampedRaptor]

I will definitely give this a try. Thanks for posting

Although, it makes more sense to neck size last and body size first In my little brain. But I'm sure there's a reason for it to be the other way around

 

[J-ROD]

I have tried every bushing combination/steps, etc with just the redding type s, gobs of runout. Nothing gives me straighter ammo than the process you just described, lee then body. I too started doing it that way after reading his article.
Lee then bushing die without button gives me the second best runout numbers, with a little more consistent neck tension.

 

[P7id10t]

I read an article by German Salazar in which he described a 2-stage sizing process that includes both neck sizing and body sizing. Salazar shows that this approach produces ammunition that has extremely low levels of runout. For unturned brass it is better to neck size first, then body size when using this method; whereas for neck turned brass, it doesn't seem to matter whether you neck size or body size first.

I starting using this 2-stage process, first using my Lee collet die to size the neck and then using my Redding body die to size the case body and bump the shoulder. I have loaded probably 100 or so rounds using this process and none of the cartridges has (total) runout above .002", measured near the case shoulder, on the neck and on the bearing surface. The overwhelming majority of the cartridges measure in the .000" - .001" range. This is a marked improvement over any single-stage sizing process I have used.

I'm sold on this and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking to reduce measured runout.

Awesome, thanks for sharing. Is there a link to the article you can post?

 

[mkollman74]

Hmmmm.... Never heard of this before, but German Salazar knows a little sumthin' about many things related to shootin' rifles (massive understatement). Methinks I may need to give this a try...

 

[YukonRob]

I was pretty sure I had discovered that same thing, it's great to see random third party validation/collaboration!

 

[Bob 964]

Awesome, thanks for sharing. Is there a link to the article you can post?

The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Two-Step Sizing and Concentricity

 

[pinsandpitons]

Thanks for posting this Bob.

 

[427Cobra]

If you want little to no run out, without all the tricks to reduce it, like Orings under the lock rings, turning cases 15 times while seating no expander ball, start neck turning, and annealing regularly, yes it's a lot of work, yes it's time consuming, but its worth it, and doing the two together yields consistently low run out, smaller groups at any distance, brass manufacture doesn't mean shit, Lapua is better brass than Winchester, but not 2-3 times the cost of it.

 

[Tonmarchelli]

Question. Would working the brass twice like this per load have an impact on case life?

 

[KelsonAK]

I have been doing something like this for a while now, although I full length without the expander ball and then use a mandrel to expand to the final desired size. I also anneal regularly - so I've seen no issues with brass life at this point. I've used the Lee collet die as a mandrel and it does a fine job, but I've switched over to a different mandrel setup with a bit more taper and without the fingers - since i'm going from smaller to larger I don't need to squeeze the brass with a collet onto the mandrel.
I also turn necks after the first firing, but reality is that is just gratuitous and 'for fun' with the rifle I'm shooting. It doesn't seem to give a fig - but I can 'feel' a difference when I'm loading in how the bullet seats and the consistency of the effort required to seat the bullet - and you have to do something while you are watching a chick flick on TV in the evening.

 

[Former0302]

Bob 964

First, thank you for the tip. I've been having issues with run out in my .308 loads.

Second...probably a stupid question...but I'll ask anyway...I've used the Lee Collet Dies before and I know neck sizing usually means you need to use the fire formed brass only in the rifle it was fire formed to but since you're sizing the case on the 2nd step, these rounds should be good to go with any firearm chambered in that caliber, correct?

Third, if I change to a two step process, do you see any value in neck turning?

 

[918v]

Question. Would working the brass twice like this per load have an impact on case life?

You are not working the brass twice with this method. The body die only sizes the body. The neck die only sizes the neck. You are sizing each part of the case only once per reloading cycle.

 

[918v]

Second...probably a stupid question...but I'll ask anyway...I've used the Lee Collet Dies before and I know neck sizing usually means you need to use the fire formed brass only in the rifle it was fire formed to but since you're sizing the case on the 2nd step, these rounds should be good to go with any firearm chambered in that caliber, correct?

Not if you set the body die to bump the shoulder minimally, say .002" or so. This is the way we do it if we want our brass to last longer than a couple firings.

 

[Bob 964]

Third, if I change to a two step process, do you see any value in neck turning?

I think there is always value in neck turning. Where one part of the neck is thicker and another thinner, the thinner part will stretch sooner and further than the thicker part. As a result, the case will not uniformly release the bullet, and the bullet doesn't enter the rifling perfectly aligned. By turning the case necks to a more uniform thickness, you get more consistent neck wall thickness, which provides consistent neck tension and consistent release of the bullet.

 

[Former0302]

Regarding neck turning, makes sense. May or may not have an effect on run out, but more consistent neck tension should equal more consistent release...have you measured a more consistent velocity with a chrono?

If you're firing the round in the same rifle as it was fire formed in, why case size at all? Why not just use the collet die and be done with it? Not trying to be a smart ass, legitimately curious. One would think that the case, once fire formed, is now a perfect match to the chamber it was fire formed in. Does the case occasionally have problems chambering if you just use the collet die?

 

[jsthntn247]

I read an article by German Salazar in which he described a 2-stage sizing process that includes both neck sizing and body sizing. Salazar shows that this approach produces ammunition that has extremely low levels of runout. For unturned brass it is better to neck size first, then body size when using this method; whereas for neck turned brass, it doesn't seem to matter whether you neck size or body size first.

I starting using this 2-stage process, first using my Lee collet die to size the neck and then using my Redding body die to size the case body and bump the shoulder. I have loaded probably 100 or so rounds using this process and none of the cartridges has (total) runout above .002", measured near the case shoulder, on the neck and on the bearing surface. The overwhelming majority of the cartridges measure in the .000" - .001" range. This is a marked improvement over any single-stage sizing process I have used.

I'm sold on this and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking to reduce measured runout.

I've been doing this for a while myself. However, I body size first then neck size. I wonder if it makes a difference, I don't have a runout gauge to check though.

 

[Bob 964]

I've been doing this for a while myself. However, I body size first then neck size. I wonder if it makes a difference, I don't have a runout gauge to check though.

Salazar's data for unturned brass show better results when he neck sized first. When the necks are turned, there is no significant difference.

 

[bh-ltr]

Hrm. I usually do the neck sizing last because I have to lube to body size. Then I throw it into the tumbler to take the lube off. I sometimes get media in the primer pockets and neck sizing is where my de-priming step is. That then cleans the media out of the flash hole. I've not spent a lot of time checking runout but perhaps I need to get a different cleaning method or differerent media that doesn't get stuck so I can swap these operations.

~Brett

 

[BC 6.8]

I wonder what kind of runout you would get with a standard FL resizing die without the expander and then using an expander mandrel die like the ones from K&M and Sinclair?

 

[KelsonAK]

That's exactly what I've been doing, and runout for me has been similar - none to about .001ish usually. The ball is what seems to cause the out of whack with the FL resizing. This DOES work the brass more. Standard FL dies significantly undersize the neck.

 

[BC 6.8]

That's exactly what I've been doing, and runout for me has been similar - none to about .001ish usually. The ball is what seems to cause the out of whack with the FL resizing. This DOES work the brass more. Standard FL dies significantly undersize the neck.

If you use brass with the same neck thickness, you can have the FL die honed out so it doesn't undersize the neck as bad. I've heard if you buy Forester dies, they will hone them for about $10.

 

[sniperdude]

tag for ref..

 

[Hoodlum]

Is it even possible to get no run-out without turning the neck? I use LC nato cases for most of my play loading,and many of them have as much as .005 difference in the thickness of the neck...Not talking about different cases either... I have seen that much difference in one side of the case to the next.... I have made turning a part of my initial brass prep... I never even measure them anymore.... I just turn them.... Maybe I am wrong, but in my thinking, if there is for instance, .005" difference in one side of the neck to the other, then when the neck is sized, it will automatically be .0025" off center after sizing, which will in turn cause run out.... Not to mention, if you crimp, it will crimp inconsistently when some necks are thicker than others.... I turn all my necks to .015 which gives me .003 of hold after sized... It may not show up in cases with a bit closer tolerances, but you will see an increase in accuracy when the difference is as extreme as I have found in this brass....
Hoodlum

 

[Paladin2147]

You may consider this, do both, try/test both. Let the rifle and the target tell you what you need to know about run-out. You may be surprised at how much run-out really matters - or not.

 

[ziggy88]

Runout is the sum of all reloading evil ! I've spent countless hours using just about every technique mentioned in the previous posts in an effort to reduce or eliminate runout on the case neck. The ONLY tool that has consistently kept TIR .0005 or less on case necks has been a custom Warner die. While the die is very expensive, it will solve your runout issues. Here is a video of my virgin Lapua brass reloading workflow before using the Warner die. Despite all the prep work results were still not what I wanted. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkr31u7NRLY.

After fireforming brass and using the Warner die 95% of my loaded rounds yield only .0005-.00015 TIR using a 21st century runout gauge. Using a Sinclair or Neco gauge barely moves the needle. I've not found ANY runout gauge to be as sensitive as the 21 st century. Do you yourself a favor and send in a few foreformed cases to Warner tool. Warner Tool Company - Reloading Dies No need to use a 2 or 3 step sizing process, IMO. This process does not consistently reduce case neck runout, IME. Results may vary ?

 

[clmayfield]

How does a custom die reduce runout? I have a Neil Jones Custom Die, but the point is not to reduce runout. The point is to have rounds that closely fit the chamber as well as to size as little as possible, which extends case life and leads to better lockup in the chamber. That effect can't really be measured with a runout gauge.

I have been doing the 2-step process for a while. I have found this to reduce average runout slightly (based on some tests I have run). As mentioned above, I don't see cartridges with runout in excess of about .002" and I measure every cartridge. I hand turn every neck twice and anneal cases every time, so I am a nut. I recently switched over to hand-loading on a Dillon 650, but runout got unacceptable to me (often in excess of .004"), so I blew a lot of cash for nothing. I am going back to the Co-ax. Too bad, because I can crank out faster than a round a minute with the progressive, but I am just too anal. I bought a floating toolhead, Uniquetek clamping head, and everything.

 

[918v]

A custom die reduces runout by reducing the amount of sizing. The less you size, the less you stress the case, the less runout you get.

 

[clmayfield]

Going from Redding to Neil Jones Custom, I experienced no appreciable change in runout. You can, however, feel the difference when you chamber a round. It feels like a crush fit even when you leave a couple of thou of headspace. Yes, sizing a little bit at a time will help runout. That is why sizing in two steps helps.

Don't get me wrong. I use a custom die and I love it, but it is not to improve runout and in my particular case, I saw no improvement. Most sizing dies available on the open market, at least the good ones, are machined square and will not induce runout on their own. On these forums, you will find many many people who get low runout using factory dies. I believe in low runout. I chase low runout. I use custom dies, but not for runout. I use them to get rounds that fit my chamber like a glove.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Regarding neck turning, makes sense. May or may not have an effect on run out, but more consistent neck tension should equal more consistent release...have you measured a more consistent velocity with a chrono?

If you're firing the round in the same rifle as it was fire formed in, why case size at all? Why not just use the collet die and be done with it? Not trying to be a smart ass, legitimately curious. One would think that the case, once fire formed, is now a perfect match to the chamber it was fire formed in. Does the case occasionally have problems chambering if you just use the collet die?

In answer to your question, at some time you may find that the brass is no longer springing back to the smaller dimension after firing, thus causing a sticky bolt. That is why they recommend to bump the shoulders back at some time. Some folks apparently do this on a certain schedule---ie. every third firing----some folks do it when they determine the need. I adjust my die to only bump .002" or less, enough to close the bolt without any problem, and I do it every time I resize.

 

[timjoebobbradley]

Lots of good info here, I will read later. Thank you for starting this Bob.

 

[Bob 964]

In answer to your question, at some time you may find that the brass is no longer springing back to the smaller dimension after firing, thus causing a sticky bolt. That is why they recommend to bump the shoulders back at some time. Some folks apparently do this on a certain schedule---ie. every third firing----some folks do it when they determine the need. I adjust my die to only bump .002" or less, enough to close the bolt without any problem, and I do it every time I resize.

And so do I.

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Great read. Thanks

 

[Silverbullet2]

Has anyone used the Redding Carbide Sizing Button Kit? It's like a 28.00 upgrade and have often wondered if it helps run out? J

 

[Enough Said]

I stumbled upon this method a while ago and am pleased to see that someone has validated it and brought numbers to paper on it.

Read and heed.

 

[Lukas Koukal]

Salazar´s articles are top notch. I´ll try the process and see for myslef. One interesting thing to note would be where does the limited runout start bringing in any benefits; ie it may be significant in 600yds and further benchrest but at the same time it may not be noticeable for off-hand grouping at 100m or it may not be important in ammo for a tactical competition where targets are over MOA.

For those who´ve tried already - when is the extra work justified?

 

[SPAK]

If you use brass with the same neck thickness, you can have the FL die honed out so it doesn't undersize the neck as bad. I've heard if you buy Forester dies, they will hone them for about $10.

I use forster dies, honed out to exact specs for the neck tension I want. Yes it means I only use brass of the same brand, and yes I neck turn to for a clean up to take off the high spots. run out is .0005-.001" on the majority of the rounds with very, very few at the most .002" TIR.

I used the two step sizing method for a few years. Using one die, honed out saves me one more step in the process.

 

[JWV]

I use the collet every now and then on my 260AI and it sets the perfect amount of tension, around 1.5 though with low runout, but I have trouble getting it to be consistent with the press. How are you guys setting them up to make sure some don't get under-tensioned without the risk of stripping the top cap threads on the die? I did find that regular annealing really helps them size easier in the collet. Otherwise I have been using my redding FL die which works very nicely but it seems unnecessary since I never actually need to bump the shoulder being that it is an ackely.

 

[Enough Said]

Salazar´s articles are top notch. I´ll try the process and see for myslef. One interesting thing to note would be where does the limited runout start bringing in any benefits; ie it may be significant in 600yds and further benchrest but at the same time it may not be noticeable for off-hand grouping at 100m or it may not be important in ammo for a tactical competition where targets are over MOA.

For those who´ve tried already - when is the extra work justified?

Only important, Lukas, if one is seeking precision, yes. Many reload for precision, not just economy. It is important to limit all matters that produce angles in precision shooting.

 

[hondo1312]

I'm new to reloading, and all the info I've read is making my brain hurt...but I have one question:

I have the Redding competition die set with the body die, the neck size die, and the bullet seating die. Do I have the right tools to perform this 2-stage process? Run the neck size die first with the proper bushing, then use the body die to bump the shoulders back 0.002"?

 

[Bob 964]

I'm new to reloading, and all the info I've read is making my brain hurt...but I have one question:

I have the Redding competition die set with the body die, the neck size die, and the bullet seating die. Do I have the right tools to perform this 2-stage process? Run the neck size die first with the proper bushing, then use the body die to bump the shoulders back 0.002"?

That's the way I do it. Neck size first; then use the body sizing die to bump the shoulder 0.002".

 

[hondo1312]

That's the way I do it. Neck size first; then use the body sizing die to bump the shoulder 0.002".

Thanks! Is was hoping that would be the answer.

 

[Name Enough]

I am getting very nice groups with my new Custom Savage but every sixth round or so is out side the others by about 3/4 of an inch. I attribute this to runout. My question is I am using a RCBS ful length die which I orginally purchased for my M1a and and AR308. Would I benefit by getting a RCBS small base die and using the method described here or am I wasting my time and should I go up market to get a competition die set. If so which one. I am not terribly picky and if I can get them all thru one jagged hole at 100 yards I am good with it. This is my current results except for that darn flyer.

 

[SPAK]

I don't know that runout will show itself on the target that significantly at 100 yards.... 300 yards maybe. Unless its really out of wack... I'd do a test, take your rounds with low runout and separate them from your rounds with high runout. Have a buddy load your mag so you don't know which is which and shoot them. Not a perfect test with a low sample but it might reveal something....

I don't think the small base die will make a difference. The competition seating die, Forster or redding will likely result in a straighter seated bullet.

whether or not its necessary for you or whether or not your flyers are from run out or some other variable needs to be determined by your testing, or just whether or not it makes your mind shoot better. If you believe it helps it probably will. If your mind is distracted focusing on whether or not it was you or a bad round, it'll drive you nuts.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

If you should find that run-out is a contributer, I have a friend who told me he uses the Hornady Concentricity gauge, as you can correct run-out with it. He said his issue with fliers has become almost non-existent. Wish i'd known this before I bought my RCBS Case-Master Gauging Tool.

 

[RampedRaptor]

Just sized 50 260rem cases by using this method. I don't have anyway to test concentricity, wish I did though. Will see how they shoot and report back. I usually just neck size because I thought that would be best but I was defiantly proving wrong.

 

[Bob 964]

I don't have anyway to test concentricity, wish I did though. Will see how they shoot and report back.

It is worth the investment (I got my Sinclair for $100 or so) to get a good concentricity gauge. When I started handloading a few years ago, I wanted to be able to build the "perfect" bullet for my gun. I wanted to hit what I was aiming at and I wanted to be able to hit it time and again. So... I MEASURE EVERYTHING, EVERY TIME. Based on my experiences and everything I have learned from members of this forum, I take comfort knowing that every cartridge I put in my gun is damn near identical to the cartridge that preceded it. And that's the best you can do. If I see differences on paper, it's far more attributable to technique than to what I put in my gun. And that opens up a whole other factor in this equation...technique. It's one thing to be be able to build the exact same cartridge over and over again. It's another to be able to shoulder, aim and fire your weapon exactly the same way over and over again.

Oops --- I digressed. In the meantime... get a good concentricity gauge. You won't regret it.

 

[pgk]

Tag, interesting. +1 on 21st Century

 

[Name Enough]

I read once that when you get into reloading it never ends. Spending money on upgrading your equipment. For me that is turning out to be very true - so off I go to get a competition grade seating die and a concentricity gauge. Dang it all.

 

[qkieler]

Thanks for posting the link I've got 1k of 308 to load up il five it a try