.20-.22LR Super Stinger

2

.20-.22LR Super Stinger

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 29, 2014
9
0
#1
Hi rimfire enthusiast,

My name is Fred Baldwin and I am 65 years old and lived in Indianapolis Indiana for the last 45 years designing and manufacturing IndyCar racing components.
As a child my grandfather gave me a Stevens 94H, 410 shotgun and a Ruger 1022. I've bagged many squirrels, rabbit, possum, raccoon, turkeys and many wild pigs with my 22 rimfire. So I have an affection for .22 rifles. Recently I purchased a CZ 455 America .17 HMR caliber rifle with interchangeable .22 Magnum and .22 Long rifle barrels. My goal is to develop .20 caliber bullet with a .22 Long rifle CCI Stinger case. I have already developed and manufactured the .20-.22 Stinger bullet and are waiting for the .20 caliber barrel from (Green Mountain rifle barrels ) that will fit my CZ 455. I also have chamber reamers coming from Dave Kiff at( Pacific Tool and Gauge ) to do the chambering on the barrels. The bullet is 1.25 inches long so it fits perfectly in the CZ's magnum magazine. The .20 caliber bullet fits the CCI .22 Long rifle brass nickel coated case perfectly with a little bit of necking down. The .20 caliber bullet is readily available from 20 grain to 60 grains from several manufacturers. Hornady offers seven different sizes alone. The CCI Stinger bullet and a hornady 32 grain .204 Ruger bullet weighs the same and has better aerodynamic BC shape for flatter trajectories. The CCI stinger bullet is only half full of powder and has a velocity of 1640 ft./s With a little work I'm hoping that my .20-.22 Stinger can attain around 2000 ft./s. And have good knockdown power for varmint shooting up to 200 yards. I've developed my own shell holder and tooling for fixturing bullets and will be offering it to anyone who's interested. I haven't made up my mind whether or not I want to go into production of this round on a limited basis. I've talked to Green Mountain about purchasing the barrels that will fit Ruger 1022's and the CZ's rifles for you guys who want to convert over to a .20 caliber. As a new member I hope my interest will be interesting to all of you. Now if I can figure out how to do an attachment on this form I would be more than glad to send you pictures of what I'm doing?

Fred!
 
#6
.20-.22LR Super Stinger

Hi All,
It's has taken me a couple of days to figure out your website and learn how to use micro on my camera. This camera has too many menus!!! At this time I'm using the hornady Ruger .204 Cal, 24 gr NTX and the 32 gr V-max in the CCI .22LR Stinger 1640 ft./s brass. There are several custom manufactures out there producing .20 caliber bullets. I'm trying to get in touch with George Ulrich about tooling for making my own .20 caliber bullets. For now I'm using hornady .20 cal bullets. Last summer I purchased 6000 Stinger bullets so I could do my development work this summer. The tooling I've developed has made it easy and safely to pull CCI Stinger .22LR bullets and replace them with hornady .204 bullets after necking down to size. Once my development work is done I'm hoping to find a US manufacturer or European manufacture and purchase half million primed .22LR brass cases. Or maybe even manufacture my own !!!!!!
I just completed a book called " The complete book of the .22 " (a guide to the world of the most popular guns) written by Wayne Van Zwoll. He was lucky enough to get a couple of boxes of the first .17 HMR round at the Speer/CCI manufacturing facility. He stated that the CCI .22 WMR cases had been necked down by Hornady, then charged with Hodgdon's LIL'Gun propellant and capped With Hornady .17 Vmax bullet. That is why it was one of my choices for Super Stinger and Hodgdon suggested it. As I said if you have any other ideas please let me know. ????? As I am in the midst of making bullets and Just finished my CZ 455 .20 caliber Green Mountain barrel. What I do best is designed tooling and manufacturing CNC parts. I have chosen to share information with members of the FORUM and at the same time gather information to help develop this into something that we all can benefit from. I know that chamber pressures in the .17 HMR, is 27,000 PSI range. I'm looking at a handheld acoustic high speed DB meter for measuring sound levels. The higher the pressure the higher the sound level. Since my barrel length is the same for all four barrels, 17HMR, .20-.22LR SS, .22LR and .22 WMR. I can get a baseline to measure and calibrate the sound level range. With that I can determine to pressure range! What I'm trying to accomplish in this program is come up with ideas for updating the .22LR bullet similar to what Hornady and CCI did with the hypervelocity .17 Cal. bullets. Since I know what the basic .22 caliber bullet have for powder loads I can extrapolate from that and use that as my starting point without fear of over pressure. I know this is a jacketed bullet and not just copper plated lead! I've shot Over 200 Bullets with 2.6 grain loads with out any problems. When it comes to better powder choices if any of you have any ideas I would appreciate any help in that area!!!!! When it comes to priming I do know that CCI and Hornady use the same primer and that CCI actually makes the rimfire bullets for Hornady. CCI's advantages is that they put a lot of primer in the bottom of each case not just in the rim area. I have developed tooling that makes it easy and Safely to pull CCI Stinger rimfire bullet. I have pulled apart over 2000 rounds so far and my tooling works very safely and efficiently. I'm using the powder out of these rounds in the same grain weights as the original bullets to do my initial testing. I don't know what powder CCI uses in the Stinger rounds but I'm hoping to possibly match it performance in the future. After I pull the bullet from the case using a Honady .223 collet cam lock bullet puller. I removed the powder and use a " LEE " " modified " Collet neck sizing dies to size the neck of the Stinger Brass cases to fit the .204 Bullet. I load powder then use a Lee dead length bullet seater to seat the bullet to length. The system also requires the use of my extended shell holders. This shell holder puts the necking length at the same height as the Ruger .204 brass case. Thus making Lee standard collet neck sizeing dies and dead length bullet seater dies with minor modifications cost-effective. Hornady and several other die manufactures use compression swaging dies to size their brass. This puts too much load on rimfire cases from a safety standpoint. That is why I say use collet dies only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Collet's exert very little compression loads!
Here's a picture of my new CZ 455 America Test instrument. I could have bought two rifles for what this Burris Eliminate II laser range finder scope cost me. Now all I have to do is find me a squirrel a quarter-mile away and I can range him and eliminated. I like good test instruments.

Fred
 

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#10
Yep. That's officially badass!! A bit time consuming but a lot of the things we do in this sport are. Now a barrel for my Quad might be just the thing if you ever get to ammo production.
 
#12
good job! tag for performance.

on a side note if one of these rounds makes it in to a 10/22 you may have a bolt speed issue?
there was something of the sort when doing a 17mach2 in a 10/22, i vaguely remember a heavier bolt handle.
keep up the good work!
 
#13
Wow - that's a hell of a way to introduce yourself to this forum! The concept is certainly very interesting; I'm curious to see how it works out.
 
#16
.20-.22LR Super Stinger

Hi all,
In the middle of whether. Ice everywhere in Indiana. All Shooting Range available to me 50 to 100 yards or outside. So no accuracy shooting available until March / April.
Before anyone asked. Here Are a couple of Pictures of my earlier development using the CCI .22LR Velocitor and CCI .22LR Stinger Using the CZ 455 .22LR and .22 Magnum magazine. Both Chamber very well in the CZ 455.

Fred




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#17
Hi all,
Here are a few more pictures of my .20-.22LR Super Velocitor 24 grain bullet and Super Stinger 32 grain bullet.
I also have on order a MagnetoSpeed V2 barrel mounted ballistic chronograph. Seems to be a pretty good piece of test equipment. I have 500 rounds ready for testing! Can't wait till the weather breaks.
If you guys have any questions you can e-mail me at [email protected] or 317-293-6449

Fred




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#18
Fred,

I strongly doubt that measuring sound levels will tell you anything about the peak pressure. Muzzle exit pressure maybe but not chamber pressure. A strain gauge on the barrel mounted at the origin of rifling is a much better method.
 
#20
.20-.22LR Super Stinger

Hi all,

What I do best is Designed Engineering and manufacturing CNC parts. I have chosen to share information with members of the FORUM and at the same time gather information to help develop this into something that we all can benefit from. I know that when it comes to chamber pressures they can get up into the 50,000 PSI range. Maybe you can tell me how one would go about calculating or testing for those types of pressures . What I'm trying to accomplish in this program is come up with ideas for updating the .22LR bullet similar to what Hornady and CCI Did with the hypervelocity .17 Cal. bullets. Since I know what the basic .22 caliber bullet have for powder loads I can extrapolate from that and use that as my starting point without fear of over pressure . Using a bullet with an excellent BC as my starting point will also be beneficial. When it comes to better powder choices if any of you have any ideas I would appreciate any help in that area! When it comes to priming I do know that CCI and Hornady use the same primer and that CCI actually makes all of the rimfire bullets for Hornady. I've pulled apart over a thousands bullets and the primer seems to be identical . CCI's advantages is that they put a lot of primer in the bottom of each case not just in the rim area. Other than the CCI Stinger .705 Length brass case. The CCI Velocitor .610 Length brass case and all the other CCI 22 Long rifle rounds seem to Use the same Brass case and primer. With cost arising and availability on .22 ammunition I am looking for accuracy. I am not going to waste ammunition anymore. The ability to upgrade My ammunition is of interest to me. My CZ455 has Five barrels to choose from and the ability to handle .22LR,.22WMR,.17Mach2,.17HMR, And my .20-.22LR Super Singer Bullets. The last four are all full metal jacket bullets and Long rifle powder ranges from 2.1 grains to 7.5 grains. I think The CZ455 can handle my super stingers 2.1 to 3.1 Grain Powder levels Safely. I have put 200 rounds through the rifle without any problems using 2.6 grains of CCI Stinger powder.

Fred


DSC03924-1.jpg
 
#21
Hey Fred,

I'll let the experts help you with the pressure testing. I wanted to take a minute and communicate a real hole in the market that applies particularly to the shooting we like to do. Almost everyone here uses rimfire for practice of longrange shooting skills. Wind calls are a big part of what we want to practice. Here is the rub, none of these rimfire cartridges were designed for longrange, historically. The rimfire traces it's lineage to varmint extermination and knocking over beer cans at 25 yds. Companies have pushed the envelope using increased velocity ( ala 17 hmr ) to push the effective range of a rimfire out to 150-200 yds which is great for the small game hunter. But, not for someone trying to shoot 400+ yds. These higher velocity cases all push the projectiles above the sound barrier using projectiles that aren't designed for longrange velocity retention or to maintain a true flight path while going transonic. For the shooter that wants to try his hand at ever extending ranges these higher velocity cartridges have even less effective range than the 22lr they improved upon. The solution has historically been to start and finish the shot subsonic using a 22lr. Even that, though, is done using projectiles horribly suited for longrange performance. Do us a favor get with Bryan Litz and find a projectile suited for transonic flight, target subsonic shooting of 400 yds and beyond with your new cartridge and I'm sure it will be successful.
I would like to see:
- a BC as close to .4 as possible
- a jacketed heavy for caliber bullet (something that requires a 9" twist or better)
- a projectile designed to go transonic as seamlessly as possible (boat tail angle of 7-9 deg and whatever else Bryan advises)
- something that fits into existing magnum actions that far outperforms the 22lr at distance (that 20 sounds great)

Take my opinion FWIW, but if you want your 20 to earn a piece of the pie, this would do something nothing else does. In fact, this would be revolutionary.
 
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#22
Fred,

I have know idea how you'd calculate pressure but...

Here are some things to think about;

Big reloading companies like CCI typically buy large quantities of powder at a certain burn rate for a specific application. Powders vary in burn rate slightly from one batch to another so they pressure test, chronograph and test for accuracy then adjust the powder charge as necessary. I mention this because what is working now might not work the best later as you try different lot numbers of powder for different lot's of ammo. When I say work I mean the velocities and pressures will vary so you'll have to check with a chronograph and on the target. Same goes for the amount and energy in the priming. Even bullets vary to small degree which might also need to be adjusted for.

Since you don't have access to such equipment right now I suggest just experimenting by working up a 10th of a grain at a time until some sign of excessive pressure manifests itself. Things like a sticky bolt lift, cases not extracting well or split cases.

You could also try a ladder test at 150Y to try to find a barrel node. I do this method with my centerfires. Typically when too much pressure is reached the bullets will rise much higher and will be erratic and usually too much pressure results in the same signs I've already mentioned.

Creighton Audette?s Ladder Test | PrecisionRifleBlog.com

Next is seating depth. A few .001's in or out can cut groups in half sometimes.

Another thing you could check is case and bullet run out on the loaded rounds. .002" and less is what I strive for.
 
#23
Fred's Project

Fred,

This is really cool stuff you are doing. I like the concept and really liked the 20cal bullets placed on the 22WMR cases. Ever thought of resizing the the 17WSM case to 20cal? Might cut it off short enough to still fit the finished round into the 22WMR mags? or not. I think the placement of strain gauges on the bbl will be your best pressure indicator.

Maybe we should partner up and buy a set of 22 rimfire production equipment and Mfg. 22lr as a business and develop wildcat rimfires on the side with it for niche markets? There seems to be a un-met demand for rimfire ammo of most types here. If CCI and Winchester do not want to step up, why not? I have a few new shooting sports products inventions that need a good CNC/CAD designer to help define the component shapes and prototypes. One had a military application which could add some volume sales.

Irish
WARCo Engineering, LLC
 
#24
.20-.22LR Super Stinger

Hi all,
Have assembled 500 rounds of Super Stingers with various loads and powders for testing as soon as the weather breaks. My 50 and 100 yard range have two foot of snow on them. If you guys have any ideas far as testing is concerned I would appreciate them!
 
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#25
Why would you even bother with this idea when there are already a lot of good .20 cartridges? Why mess with trying to handload rimfire? I understand wanting to use minimal power, but at that rate why not neck down a .22 hornet? Or even create your own cartridge? It seems to me you are going about this project the hard way.
 
#27
.20-.22LR Super Stinger

What about your idea to measure pressure by recording sound levels? Is this something you believe will work?
 
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#28
>20-.22LR Super Stinger

Hi All,

Researching chronographs. I have been looking at a friends Chrony which works fine but when he lose sunlight in the afternoon and the Chrony starts to miss shots, and the set up is a pain. The Magnetospeed V2 looks interesting but mounting to the barrel and it's effect on POI are a deal breaker. I stumbled upon the mylabradar which is coming out in a few months and supposed to come in around the same price as the Magnetospeed so I think I will be holding out till then. Same features as the Magnetospeed not needing light, works in rain and can't shoot it, without the limitations of the Magnetospeed. With the Mylabradar you get Bullet energy's and velocity's in 10 yard increments out to 100 yards. And there or more features to interface with my computer system for generating reports. I feel the system will better generate the information we all want to see.

LabRadar - My Personal Radar

Fred
 
#30
I don't know about anybody else but this just looks awesome! Would love a savage mkII in this caliber. But even more what about a single 6 with a 6" Barrel and a scope!! Fun all day! Will be watching this..... (TAG!)
 
#31
Those little suckers look cute stuffed in the stinger case! A .20 cal in the 22 mag case or better yet wsm case would be the cats meow! If they launched a .20 cal off the 22 mag case I'll bet my first born I'd have lilja make a drop in for the CZ 455!
 
#32
This really got the potential to get legs... I do hope it takes off! Would hit a lot harder then the 17! That could be a great round! Plus being able to reload no shortage of ammo like .22 please keep this moving.
 
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