Alright guys... I have a R700 long action just sitting here begging me to build it in to something. I know I’m going to do another 300wm just because I already have a good amount of reloading supplies for it. I’m really starting to like short compact rifles especially for hunting. After throwing around my AIAX 300wm with a 26 inch varmint weight barrel I thought to myself why can’t I do a 20 inch 300wm it would be nice and compact with some ass still behind it. I am by far no gunsmith so I asked a friend of mine what he thought of it and after he explained the practicality of it it made a lot of sense why I don’t see these around. But still my curiosity is getting the better of me I figure I can’t be the only one that has thought about doing one and if so has anyone had any success with or total disaster. Or just what are your guys throughs.
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20 inch 300wm yay or nay
- Thread starter Jeepguy97
- Start date
A 20" 300WM will have more gas than a 20" 308, but the difference will be less than a 24-26" comparison of the same rounds. Have to ask what your goal is for all the flash and bang of a 20" 300WM? If it is a mid distance hunting gun probably OK, but I've never considered an AIAX to be such a thing. IMHO if I were stepping down to a 20" 300WM as a hunting gun I would be choosing a lighter overall platform.
I guess it’s not so much the weight I’m worried about it’s the length. Sitting in a hunting blind with a 26 inch barrel and a suppressor gets to be a bit of a chore to move around quickly and quietly. And I think tactical hunting rifles are fun kind of a do it all package go shoot a match and after go out and take down a nice buck at 500 yards. I know the 300wm is not really a match rifle just using it for comparison.
I think of you went with lighter bullets and a shade faster powder you might not be as hamstrung by the loss of barrel but then I imagine that you’re at a 3006 level of performance. I have no winmag experience but can anyone say what a 175 with 4350 would do in a mag? Is that too fast of a powder for that volume?
I have a 24” 3006 with can and in a blind it seems fine, just sitting in a 4x4 box. I specifically went longer with it because Im only sitting in a box.
I have a 24” 3006 with can and in a blind it seems fine, just sitting in a 4x4 box. I specifically went longer with it because Im only sitting in a box.
I have run this 21” 300WM for back country hunting for the last 2 years. Ultra 7 can, great balance and excellent game getter. 190 smk running FGMM factory @ 2810 fps. 2.5-10x32 NF Mil-r so I can dial. 1/2 moa easy out to 850. My bull this year, one shot 571 yards in his bed. Right lung, top of the heart, broke offside elbow. 10 critters last 2 years. 10 yards to 600 plus. Short barrel 300WM is like a healthy ‘06 and that works for most.
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Check to see if your suppressor is rated for that short of a barrel with that round. I know TBac lists min barrel length for the win mag. Other than that velocity loss be your only issue. 24” as short as I’ve run win mag but wouldn’t go shorter unless it was suppressed. 24” with effective brake is enough blast for me let alone guy beside me !!!
Never thought about it being to short for my suppressor. Thanks for that I’ll have to look that up
Handy rifle and I always shoot it suppressed,
Went 21” because I had my smith cut and crown to 21” time my TOMB and keep my OAL about the same as the original factory length with the can in place
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You never mentioned the suppressor in the initial post. That changes things. Given the barrel length personally I'd think a 30-06 would even be sufficient, not much difference. Much more efficient. Up above 190gr out of 21" barrel 2810fps, I run 200gr AB 2970fps from 26" barrel. Fairly significant difference. Value depends on your goals. Moderate barrel length and ranges the '06 starts to look good.
Yes, depend s on your goal.
I wanted a handy, suppressed rifle that will put down anything I need out to 800 yards. I can fit it into a horse scabbard, put the sneak on WT w/o getting hung up in the brush and still whack Elk effectively @ any reasonable range.
Seems as if those were the stated goals in the OP’s original post.
I already have an old 30-30, 26” .280 rem, an “06 and my AXMC for other hunting / shooting objectives.
I wanted a handy, suppressed rifle that will put down anything I need out to 800 yards. I can fit it into a horse scabbard, put the sneak on WT w/o getting hung up in the brush and still whack Elk effectively @ any reasonable range.
Seems as if those were the stated goals in the OP’s original post.
I already have an old 30-30, 26” .280 rem, an “06 and my AXMC for other hunting / shooting objectives.
I have a 20" 300wm in my DTA SRS. Use that barrel for hunting only but I've had good results with it. I'm only using factory ammo with it though, Hornady gmx. No brake no suppressor.
I've also got a tooley 20" 300WM barrel for my AXMC that I'm using for hunting this year. Same factory ammo as my SRS. So far so good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've also got a tooley 20" 300WM barrel for my AXMC that I'm using for hunting this year. Same factory ammo as my SRS. So far so good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Didn’t really think about any goals just thought about trying something different. I guess if I had to put a label on it I would use it manly for hunting and mid range target shooting and just for the coolness factor of it. You just don’t see anything like that around my area.
I would go 338winmag or even 458winmag in a 20" barrel 
These are better in a short suppressed barrel. The 338 are much more efficient than the 300 with the same bullet weights as long as BC is not that important for short to medium range shooting.
The 458 is a different beast that also can be totally quiet with 500gr subsonics and a lot of fun.
These are better in a short suppressed barrel. The 338 are much more efficient than the 300 with the same bullet weights as long as BC is not that important for short to medium range shooting.
The 458 is a different beast that also can be totally quiet with 500gr subsonics and a lot of fun.
Try it you'll dig it...
But what would I know
Mike R.
Tac Ops
But what would I know
Mike R.
Tac Ops
I would go 338winmag or even 458winmag in a 20" barrel
These are better in a short suppressed barrel. The 338 are much more efficient than the 300 with the same bullet weights as long as BC is not that important for short to medium range shooting.
The 458 is a different beast that also can be totally quiet with 500gr subsonics and a lot of fun.
I would have thought the 338wm would’ve been worse.
In the article referenced, in shortening a 300 WM barrel, it states " No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches". Call me extremely cynical
I feel like an ass for disagreeing with Mike R, but I am in 223's camp. All of that recoil and expense is just not worth it for what is effectively .30-06 performance. My opinion is that I want my magnums to have magnum performance, which to me means heavy bullets, slow powders, and long barrels. There is just not enough difference in terminal performance at short/medium range to justify the additional boom. Most of my magnums have 28" barrels, and one has a 26". My medium range hunting rifles (7mm-08, etc) are in the 20-22" range.
My brother in law has a ruger scout rifle in 300WM. He reasoned that it would be short and handy, and still have 30-06 performance. It is short, but still heavier than my Remington mountain rifle with a 4" longer barrel. He likes it as a "medium range gun" and for him medium range is 200y and in. I suppose that if you go in with the understanding that you are sacrificing some performance for handling, then you will probably be happy. But, for me, if I'm going to be absorbing the recoil and paying for the powder, I want all of the performance I can reasonably wring from the rifle.
So, for those that know (and I do not) what is the performance difference between a 20" barreled rifle in 308win, 30-06, and 300WM- all else being equal? My intuition says that the 300WM will lose more velocity than the 308win and 30-06 per inch of barrel shortened, but should outperform both of them when comparing equal length barrels. Is that performance difference- if it exists- enough to warrant the extra expense, blast, and recoil of the magnum caliber?
So, for those that know (and I do not) what is the performance difference between a 20" barreled rifle in 308win, 30-06, and 300WM- all else being equal? My intuition says that the 300WM will lose more velocity than the 308win and 30-06 per inch of barrel shortened, but should outperform both of them when comparing equal length barrels. Is that performance difference- if it exists- enough to warrant the extra expense, blast, and recoil of the magnum caliber?
In the article referenced, in shortening a 300 WM barrel, it states " No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches". Call me extremely cynical
My best friend and I both had 300wm built by LRI at the same time, I went with a 22" and his a 26". During load development we used the same loads. We settled on 190gr Bergers with H1000 and are velocities were withing 20fps of each other.
In the article referenced, in shortening a 300 WM barrel, it states " No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches". Call me extremely cynical
I first read that article several years ago and have spent a fair amount of time thinking about that very statement... and can only conclude that it may well be true using FGMM, but certainly can't apply to all loads/powders. The 300 WM ammo used in the article runs a 190 gr projectile, which (these days) is pretty light for that chambering... I would think that the heavier, more ballistically advantageous projectiles that are available these days would show more benefit from a longer barrel than would the 190 gr pill used in the FGMM.
All of that being said, 300 WM running a 190 gr projectile is nothing to sneeze at... it just won't have the approaching-338-LM-ballistics that the 300 WM is capable of (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...338_Rev1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1nFlGpz0LN5SRDiZGefuhl).
Still another "test".....
https://rifleshooter.com/2013/12/30...rrel-length-change-velocity-a-16-300-win-mag/
https://rifleshooter.com/2013/12/30...rrel-length-change-velocity-a-16-300-win-mag/
If you switch to 230 Bergers and Retumbo/RL25/26/33, I am guessing the difference will be greater.
Boy this is getting good. I think I’m going to do one anyone have a used 300wm take off barrel for sale cheap? Has to be at least a varmint coutour
Velocity kills, in addition to mass, shot placement and bullet design. This season my 300 wsm with 23 inch barrel used the 150 grain winchester deer season xp to take deer at 180 (neck shot)and 630(vitals) yards, both 1 shot kills. That stuff is phenomenally accurate and deadly for being as cheap as it it. The 630 yard shot was just behind the shoulder and dropped him. I've thought about this a good bit and have somewhat tested it, I think if you chopped a 300wm and used lighter bullets like say 155's you would have what you're looking for.You have less felt recoil and still have a thumper at distance out to 800. By moving to a heavier bullet you might gain BC but your not shooting steel. Past 600-800 yards the higher heavier bc bullet might be better but i think your better served launching a 150 at 3100+fps.
I disagree with this statement. If you are going to drop down to the 155 class bullets you lose the BC advantage in a 30 cal. For instance your 155 idea ( I used berger in this example since it wasn't specified) at 3100 muzzle velocity. At 800 yard ballistics it is down to about 1800 velocity and 1110 energy (DA dependent) 6000 in this case.
On the other hand go short barreled 6.5 saum with a 150 smk with it's bc advantage at 2900 muzzle velocity at 800 yards same DA you are at 2075 velocity and 1435 energy with a .3 mil flatter trajectory and .6 mil less wind.
All of this with 12-15 grains less powder, maybe more.
I think you have to stay in the 180-190 class bullet to keep BC up in a 30 cal.
I had this same argument with a guy. He was trying to say a 300WM with 160gr bullets will spank my 7 mag. I showed him the ballistic chart difference and of course his response was "Well, you shouldn't be shooting animals that far away, anyways."
Berger's various 155s have significantly higher BC than the 155 Scenar, and thinner jackets to boot. Regardless, to drive this theoretical argument home, I think a better metric than BC is BC Form Factor, which basically describes the relationship between BC and bullet weight for a given caliber (FF = SD/BC). FF tells you whether your BC is merely a function of weight (bad) versus a function of design (good). Optimizing your bullet choice around FF (lower FF is better) ensures that you are making the best tradeoff between BC and bullet weight. Consider:
155 Scenar: SD = 0.233, BC = 0.221, FF = 1.05
155 Berg Hyb: SD = 0.233, BC = 0.245, FF = 0.95
215 Berg Hyb: SD = 0.324, BC = 0.354, FF = 0.91
230 Berg Hyb: SD = 0.346, BC = 0.368, FF = 0.94
212 ELD-X: SD = 0.319, BC = 0.336, FF = 0.95
225 ELD-M: SD = 0.339, BC, = 0.391, FF = 0.86
180 Accubond: SD = 0.271, BC = 0.246, FF = 1.01
Based on FF, I chose to optimize my .30 cal around the 215 Hybrid, because not only does it have a high BC, but the BC is HIGH FOR ITS WEIGHT. The 225 ELD-M is crazy efficient, but I couldn't get them to group as well in my 9.5 twist barrel. Since the highest FF bullets just so happen to be on the heavy side, I value a long barrel paired with a slow powder.
Fellows, fellows...I am not arguing that anything is better on paper bc, sectional density, velocity transonic stability, etc.
let’s just fix this by saying I am ok with you being “right” and me being “wrong” in your eyes, I really don’t care about that...but I am still going to run what I want to run.
This is a forum and a bit of banter is fine, but my posts are not intended to oppose someone else’s post - I am addressing the OP, no one else.
I shoot 26” 300 N 230 berger OTM’s, 27” 338 Lapua with all kinds of heavy bullets and slow burning powder to garner high velocity and shoot steel out to 2K and kill game out to 900 or so if the conditions warrant a certain clean death.
I also have a 1954 model ‘94 30-30, different firearms for different purposes or just for fun!
The post began about the possibility of a shorty 300 WM, I run one and like it for it’s intended purpose...Short/handy/lethal hunting rifle.
I also haul around my AXMC for miles and shoot critters with it.
BTW, not one of the 50-60 deer, antelope and elk I have killed in the last 10 years have any idea whether they were hit with my 338 lapua, 300 Norma or the shorty 300 WM - proper bullet placement rules the day.
let’s just fix this by saying I am ok with you being “right” and me being “wrong” in your eyes, I really don’t care about that...but I am still going to run what I want to run.
This is a forum and a bit of banter is fine, but my posts are not intended to oppose someone else’s post - I am addressing the OP, no one else.
I shoot 26” 300 N 230 berger OTM’s, 27” 338 Lapua with all kinds of heavy bullets and slow burning powder to garner high velocity and shoot steel out to 2K and kill game out to 900 or so if the conditions warrant a certain clean death.
I also have a 1954 model ‘94 30-30, different firearms for different purposes or just for fun!
The post began about the possibility of a shorty 300 WM, I run one and like it for it’s intended purpose...Short/handy/lethal hunting rifle.
I also haul around my AXMC for miles and shoot critters with it.
BTW, not one of the 50-60 deer, antelope and elk I have killed in the last 10 years have any idea whether they were hit with my 338 lapua, 300 Norma or the shorty 300 WM - proper bullet placement rules the day.
I really appreciate everyone chiming in on this matter. I knew I would get both sides of the spectrum and I’ve got a lot of good information to put to use. Thanks again guys
I didn't expect to stir the discussion as i did, but i think today more so than yesterday we have options in bullets, Hornady now has 155gr ELD-m .461 (G1), 178gr ELD-X .552 (G1). Since jeepguy is talking about a short barrel I am only positing that a heavyweight high BC bullet may not marry up with the right powder for a short barrel. Yes, heavy high bc's deserve long barrel's and slow burning powders. Regardless of choice I would agree that it always comes down to shot placement and that the animal cannot tell the difference between at 155 and 190 grain bullet.
Well I went back and researched this and found the white paper courtesy of Berger: I was wrong, higher velocity / lighter bullets get passed at 250 meters or so. [Since A191 is the lightest bullet, it starts out with the highest velocity. However the heavier 220 and 230 grain bullets quickly catch and surpass the 190 grain bullet in retained velocity. It only takes 162 meters for the 230 bullet to match the retained velocity (2585 fps) of the 220 grain bullet. The 220 grain bullet meets the 190 at 372 meters with a retained velocity of 2260 fps. At 262 meters, the 230 surpasses the 190 grain bullet in retained velocity (2456 fps). In summary, beyond 262 meters, the 230 grain OTM retains more velocity than both the A191 and MK248Mod1.]
Here is the white paper: http://www.bergerbullets.com/images/articles/WEZ_300_Win_Mag.pdf
Here is the white paper: http://www.bergerbullets.com/images/articles/WEZ_300_Win_Mag.pdf
If you’re gonna go 20” I’d suggest using H4831 or IMR4831 and at least a 178 eld-x.
I’ve had great results with that
I’ve had great results with that
