20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

J

jneher

Private
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2010
12
0
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#1
I'm new to this but I'd like to shoot .22LR long range
(but also short range). I have a Bushnell 3200 10x40 mil-dot
scope. I've heard that at 200 yds I might expect
to need something like 24 MOA elevation and if i were to
shoot 300 yds, 48 MOA. The specs on the scope say the
adjustable range is 80 inches at 100 yds which seems like
it would cover the elevation needed without a
20 MOA rail. I'm I right in thinking this or
is there some reason that I'd need one?

Any information or opinions on this would be
welcome.

Thanks,

Jon
 
#2
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

Hi Jon,

Yes, at about 300 yds, you're looking at over 40 inches of drop.

However, when the scope lists adjustment range, it is both above and below the centerline of the scopes turret range.

SO, the 80 MOA of adjustment is actually 40 MOA up and 40 MOA down. Since you need 48 in one direction, it won't quite make it. For 300 yds, either use hypervelocity ammo or get the canted base.
 
#3
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

So, with the 20 MOA rail, if I wanted to shoot all distances
between 50 - 300 yds, how/where might I zero it?

Sorry to be so naive about this stuff.

Thanks,

Jon
 
#4
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

PS,

Why are the scope specs in inches at 100 yds instead of MOA?
The turrets have 4 clicks per unit. I know MOA at 100 yds
is more than one inch.

Thanks,

Jon
 
#5
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

Some scopes are actually calibrated in Inches Per Hundred Yards (IPHY), I think USOs can be had that way, but I doubt that the Bushy is. I'm going to assume that they are saying you have 80MOA of adjustment, in any case it doesn't really matter for this discussion.

Your scope will probably zero somewhere near the center of the erector at 50 yards giving you about 40 up and 40 down. You need that 40 down like you need a hole in your head. The 20MOA base just moves the 50 yd zero lower in the adjustment range and buys you an extra 20 MOA of up adjustment.

I'd go with the 20MOA rail.

<span style="font-style: italic">Edit: it's your rifle and you can shoot it how you want, but I gotta ask, why get a CZ military trainer and scope it. The point of that rifle is iron sights. I've really been considering one with no intention of ever scoping it.</span>
 
#6
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

Simple answer, get the 20MOA base.

As the others already said, 80MOA adjustment is only half of that available to you for drop assuming you get a perfect mechanical zero (i.e. the scope ends up perfectly in the middle of the adjustment range when you zero) I think that rarely happens so you could even endup with <40MOA elevation adjustment to deal with drop if zero already puts you on the low end of the adjustment range.

I have a cz452 varmint in .22lr with a Mueller APT on top with a DIP 20MOA picatinny base. It's currently zeroed at 60 yards. At 200 yards, my holdover is around 5mil. Works very well.

I go with full picatinny bases on all my firearms so that I can switch optics around as needed without touching any ring torque.
 
#7
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

even simplier answer: get a 30moa rail. like XTR said, you need that down elevation like you need an extra hole in your head. You're just wasting half of your scopes capabilities.

My setup had a 20 moa rail on it. I was unable to reach 300yds and had 13 moa left on the down elevation (from a 50yd zero). So I got a 30 moa rail and it did TWO fantastic things: one, it gave me an extra 10moa of elevation, but an added side benefit that I think I like even more, it gave me a poor boys zero stop. To explain that, now, no matter where I am in the 3 rotations it takes to get max elevation, if I forget where I am, I crank the knob all the way down till it stops, than back off 3moa and I am back to my 50yd zero. Very very nice.

Just search, I think TOP Predator had a thread where you can buy rails for many different manufactures.

Regards,
DT
 
#9
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

20 MOA.

But I have to ask, why almost everyone is set on 50 yard zero? I mean, if one can't shoot 1/4" at 50 and 3/4" at 100, what makes one think he can hit something at 300? If you are shooting tiny groups at 50, why don't you zero your .22lr at 75 or 100 yards???
That way you don't need to worry about 25 or 35MOA bases...
Just a thought.
 
#10
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

That's an interesting thought VYD. I went ahead and
bought the 20 MOA rail (ordered it anyway) but
I maybe try zeroing at 100 yds instead of 50 and
see how it goes. The main reason I have been zeroing
at 50 is that that is as far as I can shoot in a
more or less level and safe direction and I can
shoot whenever I want there. I could still leave enough
to back my scope off to 50 yds when I wanted that.

Thanks for all the advice.

Jon
 
#11
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

Here is what I did, Jon. My Savage TR shoots 3/4" at 100 yards with Wolf Match Extra ammo. So this is my zero. But, I sighted it in indoors. Then a 20MOA Murphy Precision base comes to play for 200+ yards shooting. Works for me.
 
#12
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">20 MOA.

But I have to ask, why almost everyone is set on 50 yard zero? I mean, if one can't shoot 1/4" at 50 and 3/4" at 100, what makes one think he can hit something at 300? If you are shooting tiny groups at 50, why don't you zero your .22lr at 75 or 100 yards???
That way you don't need to worry about 25 or 35MOA bases...
Just a thought. </div></div>


Simple. It's fun to ring a 200 or 250 or longer.
 
#13
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

I've thought about dropping my 50 yard zero in favor of the 100 yard zero, then continue on out to 150, 200, and 250 yards, but since I have the dope all figured for 50, 100, 150, 200, & 250 yards, there's really no reason to change it. Right now my long range rifle is setting on a 100 yard zero atop an EGW 20 MOA base. All I need to do is crank it up 19 minutes to get back to 200 yards.
 
#14
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple. It's fun to ring a 200 or 250 or longer. </div></div>

Ahh...my issue is with 30+++MOA bases when 20 is all you need with a 100 yards zero. And yes, it is fun to ring at 250+ yards, I never had a problem with that, lol.
 
#16
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...But I have to ask, why almost everyone is set on 50 yard zero? I mean, if one can't shoot 1/4" at 50 and 3/4" at 100, what makes one think he can hit something at 300? If you are shooting tiny groups at 50, why don't you zero your .22lr at 75 or 100 yards???
That way you don't need to worry about 25 or 35MOA bases...
Just a thought. </div></div>

Where you 'zero" your scope doesn't have any effect on the total elevation. If you zero it at 50, and dial it in for 100 then you've re-zeroed. Where you "zero" has no effect on your need or not for a rail with additional elevation.

As it turns out most scopes come with the erector centered in such a way that whether they are mounted on a 300 win mag or a 22 lr about 1/2 or more of their elevation capability is rendered useless.

Fifty for 22s is like 100 for centerfires, it's a convenient place from which to start.
 
#17
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

You need to re-read what I said and stop making assumptions. I said if you group 1/4" at 50 or better why concentrate on something that is easy and obvious like wasting time punching paper at 50 while you can do the same at 100. If you are over 1" at 50 then perhaps you need to stay at 50. What makes you think you going to hit anything at 300 then???

As far 100 for centerfires, I don't know, my .308 zero is at 200, now that IS convenient point from which to start.
 
#18
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

So did you shoot at 200 yards to establish your zero? Or did you shoot at 100 to zero your scope and then dial up to 200 and just leave it there?
 
#19
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

I too am new to this long range .22 shooting. I finally found a 20 MOA mount for my Savage FV, I also own the Bushnell 3200 Elite 10X.

I have two questions, what height rings should I get to mate up with the 20 MOA base? My second one is, because it is a mil dot scope, if I were to run out of elevation adjustment with or without the new base, couldn't you just use one of your mil dots to extend your range out to 300 yards or longer?

I'm thinking of using Burris Tactical rings.

Thanks for any input. Good luck Jon
FIREDOG
 
#20
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FIREDOG421</div><div class="ubbcode-body">couldn't you just use one of your mil dots to extend your range out to 300 yards or longer?</div></div>Yes, you could hold over for more elevation.

Look here for ring height.
 
#21
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

Using the mils seems to be a whole new shooting experience to learn. The 20MOA base was a good idea. The link provided by Oodin should be all you need to figure out rings! Let us see is all when it is completed =D
 
#23
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need to re-read what I said and stop making assumptions. I said if you group 1/4" at 50 or better why concentrate on something that is easy and obvious like wasting time punching paper at 50 while you can do the same at 100. If you are over 1" at 50 then perhaps you need to stay at 50. What makes you think you going to hit anything at 300 then???

As far 100 for centerfires, I don't know, my .308 zero is at 200, now that IS convenient point from which to start. </div></div>

Regardless of you ability to hit targets at 300 +/-, my personal best for a prarie dog kill is 342 yds lrf confirmed, if you dont max out the elevation on your scope, you are essentially "wasting" half of your scopes ability. I like 50 yd zero and might go with a 25 yd zero, not because of group size, but due to the fact you may need to shoot at something close range. Comps and prarie dogs are not always at one yardage and 22's are very yardage effected (8 moa diff from 50 to 100 yds for my gun, thats a clean miss on a prarie dog).

If you have to buy a base anyways, why not get one that allows you to shoot further (not limiting the scope) when your shooting ability increases? eventually getting limited because someone said its impossible to get hits at long range cause your rifle does not group decent at close range is silly in my opinion. Even a moa gun can get hits at 300 if you learn to read the wind and it is very educational experience. Take into account ur abilities now, and plan for your abilities tomorrow.

Regards,
DT
 
#24
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple. It's fun to ring a 200 or 250 or longer. </div></div>

Ahh...my issue is with 30+++MOA bases when 20 is all you need with a 100 yards zero. And yes, it is fun to ring at 250+ yards, I never had a problem with that, lol. </div></div>

just what would be your issues with added elevation ability?
with having a zero stop?
with using your scops to its full intended ability?
with still being able to zero from 50 yds and dial in targets up to 300 yards on a 22!?!?

I gues I am really missing something here. Especially if the 30 moa +++++++++++ base cost exactly the same as a 20 moa base???

Regards,
DT
 
#25
Re: 20 MOA vs 0 MOA Rail (for my CZ 452 Trainer)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D_TROS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple. It's fun to ring a 200 or 250 or longer. </div></div>

Ahh...my issue is with 30+++MOA bases when 20 is all you need with a 100 yards zero. And yes, it is fun to ring at 250+ yards, I never had a problem with that, lol. </div></div>

just what would be your issues with added elevation ability?
with having a zero stop?
with using your scops to its full intended ability?
with still being able to zero from 50 yds and dial in targets up to 300 yards on a 22!?!?

I gues I am really missing something here. Especially if the 30 moa +++++++++++ base cost exactly the same as a 20 moa base???

Regards,
DT </div></div>
DT,
When a man has a Savage TR that shoots 3/4" groups at 100yds he doesn't need all that poofery that comes with a 30MOA rail.
sarcasm off.
 
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