200 yards with rimfire

[justin amateur]

I've been sending 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 200 yards with rimfire for a while now.
I'm not particularly skilled, or using a competition quality rifle off a high end rest.
I shoot a home tweaked CZ 455 Varmint with a couple of Lilja barrels and a Sinclair F-Class bipod off a wood bench.
I'd like to see what can be accomplished with a better quality rifle and rest
by someone who actually knows what they're doing, for 50 shots, at 200 yards, with rimfire.
I don't care what your setup is or rimfire ammunition used.
All that's important is to send 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 200 yards with rimfire.
22lr, 22wmr, 17wsm, 17hmr, 17hm2 or even 5mm if it makes you happy.
Spring is on the way and I figure now is the time to get y'alls attention.
Take some pics of y'er rifle/setup, looking downrange, ammo used and of the target results with a ruler next to the group.
My results have ranged from 24 inches of spread with really crappy ammo to just over 3.5 inches for 50 shots.
I'd like to see how tight rimfire can be made to shoot at 200 yards.
If you use a chronograph, add those numbers to y'er results. I like hard data.

 

[justin amateur]

Here's a sample of what my results look like

Let's see what someone with the necessary knowledge and skills can do
with a decent rifle and rimfire ammo can produce for 50 shots at 200 yards.

Judging wind has been kicking my butt.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

count me in for providing some data to this project. looking forward to seeing everyone's setup's and data as well

 

[L8N137]

this is an awesome idea! I don't have pics or anything, but ive been able to consistently hit soda cans at 200yds using a savage 93r17 17hmr with a BSA sweet 17 scope.

 

[Topstrap]

I've been watching the same thing over on Rimfire Central and been kinda interesting. I've not participated mainly because I'm tight and don't like sending 50 rounds downrange at the same target. I usually do 10 rounds on a plate at 197 (I don't have room for 200) and if it does decent there then I use it in a match.

I do limit ammo costs for my matches to no more than $8.00/50 so I mainly use Wolf MT. Last year I started experimenting with cheaper stuff just to see how low I could go and still be competitive. I shot these 10 shots but my Son Chris (in the photo) mainly uses it for the matches, it's his favorite gun even though we have others.

This is 10 shots on a target the exact size of a real clay pigeon at 197 yards. Shot with my infamous Ugly Beddy Winchester 52-C in a 2x4 wooden stock with a poweraide bottle for a cheek rest. Put together as an experiment but it shoots so well I've left it alone just to keep getting WTF is that looks. Still amazes me how well it shoots, makes you wonder just what makes a gun a shooter or not?

First shot high and a bit left was the first shot, next 9 were with a slight hold adjustment. I always feel if a shooter can put 10 in a nice group then the gun/shooter combo is fine and the dropped rounds are unknowns to frustrate you.

Shooting midpriced ammo I do accept the fact that I'll get 2 to 3 dropped rounds in each box of 50, that translates to 4 to 5 possible dropped shots at my 85 to 100 round match. Hope they happen on a larger target but it keeps everyone on more of an even playing field and keeps the high dollar benchrest guys at their own game where they can all be equal.

 

[justin amateur]

Soda cans are a decent target at 200 yards with rimfire.
If you can do that consistently you ought to have no trouble
producing worthwhile results
with 50 consecutive shots at a single aimpoint.
Give it a try, let's see what you can do.

 

[acudaowner]

so you want to see 50 shots in a target at 200 yards and pics of the gear? is there a time limit on this ?

 

[justin amateur]

If the cost dissuades you top, then no worries.
I'm going to be sending 100 to 200 shots every trip to the range.
Might as well make it interesting.
50 and 100 yards got boring so I make use of the 200 yard facilities.
Don't want any rimfire boredom killing the fun factor.
Watching what wind and cartridge defects do to the trajectories
keeps me out there box after box.

 

[justin amateur]

No time limit.
I'm interested in just how well a rimfire can do at 200 yards.
Waiting out the gusts is just smart shooting.
50 shots at a single aimpoint.
Even if it takes you a month to get the job done.

Makes you wonder what the new vudoo can do too, eh?

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

@Topstrap

damn i'm jealous of that range. is that your private range or a facility near you?

 

[Topstrap]

@Topstrap

damn i'm jealous of that range. is that your private range or a facility near you?

Mine, eastern Ohio

 

[Booner1334]

Mine, eastern Ohio

I like the range, and I think the rifle is just over the top! I like the thinking behind it.

I believe I'll take the 50-200 challenge, but it'll have to wait until the weather improves here, (central Missouri). Normally when I shoot, it's five rounds at the target, but I also mark the hits, 1 through 5, in my range book then transfer that over to the targets. It's kind of amusing because sometimes you begin to notice patterns emerge. I use a 25 round mag, and noticed that targets 3 and 4 normally gave me the tightest groups; I'm thinking that may be due to the spring pressure in the mag? And from a new mag, the first shot was normally high and left, shot no. 2 was lower and to the right.
i wonder if I could do something like this in the 50-200? The biggest problem may be in keeping track of the bullet strikes. But if that was possible, imagine numbering the bullet strikes along with the chronograph value of each strike? Now, that would get interesting!

 

[Centuriator]

"I've not participated mainly because I'm tight and don't like sending 50 rounds downrange at the same target."

That's just dumb. 50 rounds is $2.50.

 

[acudaowner]

if 200 yards makes you jealous you should read some of the post a few weeks back with pics of people shooting on blm land with mobile shooting pads towed by trucks that had 3000 yards on one side and 6000 yards on the other , pretty pics. I could do nothing but drool and dream , It would be nice one day. I have a dream I could have a mud hut surrounded by berms and or moutian ranges to shoot at right outside my front cut out window with thousands of acres of land by which to hunt , shoot and frolic on . my luck dictates that i would die the very next morning i still love the idea.just need to find the land and an american indian who could cry a single tear while standing beside a clean clear stream while i make the video. lol

 

[Topstrap]

I guess I used a bit of sarcasm about being tight. I go thru quite a few thousand rounds and see no need for 50 rounds at one target since I shoot long-range rimfire matches nearly every weekend and numerous times with quite a variety of rimfire rifles and pistols in practice.

I know what the different ammos I use will do from match results. Yes, I've tried the higher priced ammo and it's quite a bit more consistent at the farther distances but I don't use it at my matches mainly just to show you can be competitive without spending a lot.

Even out to 500 yards I still only use Wolf MT, there are plans this Summer for some ELR rimfire matches locally so I may step up a bit to have less dropped rounds when they count.

Gotta keep the fun in it....

 

[Topstrap]

you

 

[justin amateur]

Spring here in Northeast Florida.
Southwest winds at 6 to 8 mph put the breeze up the back of my neck.
Roof over the line was spitting turbulence that made if difficult to time the squeeze.

CZ 455 Varmint with set trigger, Lilja sporter barrel, 25 moa rail
Mueller 8-32x Target scope, Sinclair bipod, wind flags

Ballistic calculator shows there should be about 4,5 inches of vertical spread
Those strays are caused by misjudging the flags and the timing of the squeeze.
Tailwinds and the vortices shed by the roof keep things interesting.
Box labeled 1058 fps, but chronied a bit higher.

 

[justin amateur]

Here's the CZ 455 Son Of Fuglie with the Feddersen "Stubby" 16.5 inch 22wmr barrel locked in.
The muzzle is 1/8" clear of the fore end. Looks ridiculous but does the job.
Mueller 8-32x44 Target scope, another set trigger, Sinclair bipod and bag

Label says Browning Precision but it's made on the Winchester machines.
That might explain the dropper that showed up.

 

[straightshooter1]

Ballistic calculator shows there should be about 4,5 inches of vertical spread
Those strays are caused by misjudging the flags and the timing of the squeeze.
Tailwinds and the vortices shed by the roof keep things interesting.
Box labeled 1058 fps, but chronied a bit higher.

Hmmm??? Apparently that 1058 MV on the box is a misprint. Eley's website show that is should be 1085. And the numbers you've got tells me that 1085 is correct for your box of Tenex.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley made a labeling mistake?
Is having the rated MV wrong
the same as using the word match on the label,
when the chrony and results say otherwise?

Thanks for the information, straight.

 

[straightshooter1]

Label says Browning Precision but it's made on the Winchester machines.
That might explain the dropper that showed up.

Yes it does explain that.

When I did some testing of Browning's Performance Rimfire 22LR with a published MV of 1435 is was exactly the same as Winchester's Hyper Speed cartridges that I also tested, not only in performance but in looks and quality. I concluded that Browning's LR cartridges were really no more than Winchester's that's simply rebranded.

 

[straightshooter1]

Eley made a labeling mistake?

Nahh . . . I think the Printer reversed the "8" and "5" and someone at Eley didn't do the proof reading well .
. . . or someone is dyslexic.

Is having the rated MV wrong the same as using the word match on the label, when the chrony and results say otherwise?

I think they have the proper rating, just the wrong Printer or wrong proof reader.

 

[justin amateur]

If you look carefully, printed on the side of the Browning box
is the Winchester manufacturers date code.
Same components, different head stamp and labels.

 

[sinister]

If you use the NRA/military 200-yard highpower rifle target with a .22 LR you are shooting Mini-Palma -- a 1,000-yard training discipline.

.22 LR at 200 can shoot into the X-10 ring, and the wind-reading skills you need for 40-grain bullets very closely aligns with those needed for a 308 at 1,000.

 

[straightshooter1]

If you use the NRA/military 200-yard highpower rifle target with a .22 LR you are shooting Mini-Palma -- a 1,000-yard training discipline.

.22 LR at 200 can shoot into the X-10 ring, and the wind-reading skills you need for 40-grain bullets very closely aligns with those needed for a 308 at 1,000.

Like this one?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-yard-slow-and-rapid-fire-paper-package-of-50

 

[sinister]

Yup. Cheaper if you order the repair center rather than the full-size target.

Here's a youtube:

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Ballistic calculator shows there should be about 4,5 inches of vertical spread
Those strays are caused by misjudging the flags and the timing of the squeeze.
Tailwinds and the vortices shed by the roof keep things interesting.
Box labeled 1058 fps, but chronied a bit higher.

Does that 4.5 inch vertical spread correlate to the difference in MV?

I'll do this eventually with my 40X. I'm really interested in looking at each shot and its MV to see how they link up. I'll need a spotter to do that, or maybe do that at 100 where I could use 50 dots.

 

[justin amateur]

At 200 yards with SV ammo 1 fps difference in MV produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread.
Only time target results don't match the calculator
is when I have to deal with turbulence.
The vertical shifts mess with the trajectories.


Or when the ammo has defects.
In which case the trajectory goes anywhere it wants.
Asymmetric projectiles have their own agenda.

 

[Prebanpaul]

@Topstrap where are you in east Ohio

 

[Topstrap]

Just West of St. Clairsville. Right beside Jamboree in the Hills site.

Topstrap

 

[JG26_Irish]

At 200 yards with SV ammo 1 fps difference in MV produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread.
Only time target results don't match the calculator
is when I have to deal with turbulence.
The vertical shifts mess with the trajectories.


Or when the ammo has defects.
In which case the trajectory goes anywhere it wants.
Asymmetric projectiles have their own agenda.

Don't forget that side to side winds also generate vertical dispersion of the shot. If wind is blowing from right to left, the shot will drift left and up and if wind is blowing from left to right the shot will drift right and down. When you get subtle head winds and tail winds those will also affect POI. These are noticeable at 50y. They can be huge at 200y. Toss in rolling vortices from the roof of the firing line and it gets really fun.

 

[anon]

I'm glad I saw this. It prompted me to take my Compass Lake 22lr Service Rifle practice upper to a 200yd casual prone match.

I had never really shot it at anything but paper plates at 50 offhand in the 15 or so years that I have owned it, not to mention 200. It now has a Leupold 3-9 EFR along with some National Match quarters for scope adjustments. The best 20 round relay was 187-3 on the A21 target with Eley Club from a Harris bipod.

Good fun, but not 50 on the same target.

 

[justin amateur]

Aye, Irish. Y'er absolutely right.
If I was shooting for score I'd have to compensate.
But when shooting for group size as long as the wind is steady
I can send five, dial to center of group
Then send 50 at an aimpoint and have consistent results.
With wind flags strung out the length of the range
I've become pretty good at waiting for the best moments to squeeze.
It has been very good practice/warmup for my 223 F-Class.
Why waste handloads for warmup?

 

[1Paladin]

I did s series of 50 at 200 tests for various brands and flavors of ammo through my RPRR. I shot off a stout bench with a bipod and rear bag using a 16x scope.

I don't have photos because I'm not that patient. However, here is a summary of my results. The cost is in cents, wind in mph, AV in FPS and the height and width measurements are in inches. The chrono data is for the entire batch. However, I usually picked up only 43-47 of the rounds. YMMV.

�

50 Rounds at 200 Yards from Bench
Date	Ammo Brand	Model	Grains	Bullet Material	Bullet Profile	Cost per Round	Wind	Ave. Velocity	ES	Ave SD	Height	Width
12/19/2018	CCI	Standard Velocity	40	Lead	Round Nose	7	5	1033	32	9.22	9.0	6.6
12/19/2018	CCI	Blazer	40	Lead	Round Nose	7	5	1233	60	19.73	10.5	7.5
12/24/2018	CCI	AR Tactical	36	Lead	Round Nose	7	0	1172	74	16.70	6.1	5.7
12/28/2018	SK	Rifle Match	40	Lead	Round Nose	16	7	1018	47	8.74	8.0	5.4
12/29/2018	SK	Pistol Match	40	Lead	Round Nose	13	7	1024	60	10.35	8.6	6.4
12/30/2018	Lapua	Center X	40	Lead	Round Nose	22	8	1030	40	6.75	7.2	7.7
12/31/2018	Lapua	Polar Biatholon	40	Lead	Round Nose	29	8	1058	61	8.43	7.0	5.9
1/1/2019	Eley	Target	40	Lead	Round Nose	13	8	1042	63	12.87	12.0	7.1
1/10/2019	CCI	Standard Velocity	40	Lead	Round Nose	7	8	1033	32	9.22	7.8	8.3
1/10/2019	CCI	Mini-Mag	36	Copper	Plated HP	7	8	?	?	?	15.5	15.8

 

[justin amateur]

Thanks for the post paladin. Looks like I need to try a box of the CCI Tactical.
It is running the supersonic transition, yet it's vertical spread is better than many of the subsonic rounds.

 

[justin amateur]

This is the best results from the 17hmr at 200 yards

CZ 455 SOF barrel block Lilja, Mueller 8-32x44 target scope, Sinclair bipod and bag

This was as good as I could get from a barrel block 17wsm rig.
Savage heavy barrel bmag locked into a fuglie on a Sinclair bipod

 

[Topstrap]

Ugly Beddy has a cousin!!!!!!!! Yours is more refined, Beddy is from South of the tracks.

 

[justin amateur]

I remember when Beddy was first introduced.
Do you remember her uncle? The original Fuglie?

 

[Topstrap]

LOL, they do get the eye rolls and Snickers. Can't argue with the way they shoot though. Makes you wonder ..........

Topstrap

 

[justin amateur]

...wonder? Not at all. I figured out right quick how it improves results.
No wobbly round bottom stock with a skinny butt and oversized inletting
allowing the receiver and barrel to hummm anywhere they feel like.
Lock that barrel down, let the receiver float and the results aren't a surprise.
Then there's the added weight. Inertia has a quality all it's own.

 

[justin amateur]

CCI Select 40 grain 22lr rated 1200 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod

CCI Pistol Match 40 grain 22lr rated 1070 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair

Hmmmmm....interesting....same bullet, same brass, same lube all from CCI.
Yet the supersonic rated cartridge did better from the same rifle.
Where's that much blamed supersonic transition I read about?

I'm thinking someone needs to do some serious research on the effects of the transition
on short stubby round nosed projectiles. No yaw, no pitch, no tumbling there.
It most definitely doesn't show what the SMK BTHP did in the much referred to study.

 

[straightshooter1]

CCI Select 40 grain 22lr rated 1200 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod

CCI Pistol Match 40 grain 22lr rated 1070 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair

View attachment 7039940


Hmmmmm....interesting....same bullet, same brass, same lube all from CCI.
Yet the supersonic rated cartridge did better from the same rifle.
Where's that much blamed supersonic transition I read about?

I'm thinking someone needs to do some serious research on the effects of the transition
on short stubby round nosed projectiles. No yaw, no pitch, no tumbling there.
It most definitely doesn't show what the SMK BTHP did in the much referred to study.

I don't think that when people talk about the effect of the transition that they're suggesting any kind of yaw, pitch or tumbling is imparted onto the bullet. I've always understood it to mean that the transition simply imparts a random deflection of the bullet due to a sudden change in the pressure wave . . .??? You'd think that with the technology we have today, this was be easy enough to find out . . . if one has or can afford the right equipment.

Looking at the two dispersion patters, it's kind of what I would expect as the horizontal dispersion for the Select cartridges is substantially more than the Pistol Match cartridges. And the vertical dispersion for Select seems normal to me for a bullet traveling that distance with more velocity. So . . . how would one explain the wider dispersion of the higher velocity bullets?

I guess one would select the type of cartridge depending on which type of target one is aiming at to take advantage of the particular dispersion pattern???

 

[justin amateur]

I see 6 inches by 7 inches on the Select,
and 6 inches by 10 inches on the Pistol Match.
Comparing MV spread and wind effects
I'd say the hi v did better.
Cartridge defects and wind effects
are a better explanation for pattern dispersion than transition.
Both show visibly asymmetric bullets,
canted bullets, irregular brass dimensions
along with varying seating depths.
The transition is not causing as much of a deflection as many claim.
Not with a stubby round nose bullet.
I've produced other 50 shot patterns
that don't support the transition claims.

 

[straightshooter1]

I see 6 inches by 7 inches on the Select, and 6 inches by 10 inches on the Pistol Match.

Rather than looking at the absolute, I like to look at it more like a statistical mean.

Comparing MV spread and wind effects I'd say the hi v did better.

As far as those two samples, I tend to agree . . .

particular if shooting at a bulls-eye type target.

Cartridge defects and wind effects are a better explanation for pattern dispersion than transition.
Both show visibly asymmetric bullets, canted bullets, irregular brass dimensions along with varying seating depths.

No doubt in my mind as to how those things can affect dispersion. And it makes it all pretty complicated.

The transition is not causing as much of a deflection as many claim. Not with a stubby round nose bullet. I've produced other 50 shot patterns that don't support the transition claims.

Sounds like you're on the right road. But as you mentioned, it'd be nice to find a good detailed study that one could point to definitively.


BTW: I'm really not trying to argue with you, but am simply trying to understand the issue and its nuances.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' straight.
I wouldn't mind an argument.
Especially if it was from someone who had access to a research facility.
I'm not seeing the accuracy problems that I expected
after reading about supersonic transition as being the cause
in so many forum posts on rimfire websites.
An explanation based on actual research
done with a round nosed projectile
is what is needed, not the bthp study.

 

[BillOH]

Does anybody make premium high velocity 22LR ammo?

 

[DetroitRearView]

Not exactly same class as you guys, but I love to shoot my SW M&P 15-22 iron sights at range. Went out the other day and hit a 10 inch plate 20 out of 25 rds @ 237 yards 7-10 mph wind using el-cheapo federal bulk ammo. I need the first 3-5 to determine hold over and wind then it is ping ping. Fun stuff! You all have some amazing groups!

 

[justin amateur]

Topic of discussion at the local range, yesterday morning.
How would you test transonic ballistics with a round nose projectile?
Another old coot offered the 30 cal carbine as the test cartridge.
It can be reloaded, from subsonic to supersonic, easy to verify bullet symmetry
same basic shape as the 22lr and 22wmr. No need for a special run of rimfire.

.30 carbine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[justin amateur]

Even with wind flags I still can't time it right.
Right to left at 2-6 mph and those puffs coming over the side berm get me.

Federal UltraMatch at 200 yards across a chronograph
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja sporter barrel, Mueller 8-32x44 target scope, set trigger, Sinclair bipod

label says Federal, date code on the end flap is RWS
It's RWS R50 with the Fed headstamp

The vertical spread fits the ES
That horizontal is those puffs catching me mid-squeeze.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Don't forget that side to side winds also generate vertical dispersion of the shot. If wind is blowing from right to left, the shot will drift left and up and if wind is blowing from left to right the shot will drift right and down. When you get subtle head winds and tail winds those will also affect POI. These are noticeable at 50y. They can be huge at 200y. Toss in rolling vortices from the roof of the firing line and it gets really fun.

Here's a chart that has been around a long time that shows what you just said.