2000yrd SA round?

[FUNCTIONAL]

Googling isn't giving me much, or im not searching the right words. To my suprise ive been given the opportunity to have frequent fun at 2000yrds. I mainly shoot 308 and 6mm and am looking for a caliber to reach to 2k.

Im trying to accomplish this using my AI short action with standard bolt face. Ive looked at 284 shehane but i really don't know crap. Is it feasable to do a 260AI with like a 28" bbl? What other calibers could fit this bill?

Worse case scenario i have a rem 700 sa i could throw a magnum bolt in but wound really like to get this done on the AI. If this becomes an obsession like the rest of shooting ill eventually splurge for a proper ELR rig but not ready to hit the wallet hard yet.

any help from you guys is appreciated!

 

[Longshot85]

6.5cm with 122 grain Flatline bullets

 

[fdkay]

I believe you would have to modify a magazine or two to feed the .260AI.
A standard 24" barrel should work just fine, though 26" wouldn't hurt.
You might be able to get there with a 7-08 and the new 150 ELD-X bullets

 

[sandwarrior]

Any 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm with a heavy for caliber bullet and a tight twist. The 6mm's shoot flatter, the 6.5's give less wind drift, and the 7mm's the lowest wind drift of all. But, they give the most drop out to 1k Beyond that, the higher BC gives them a slight advantage.

So, this would be any of the three calibers with the heaviest highest BC's in a X 47, Creed, XC or .308 based case., 6mm: 105 Ber, 107 SMK, 115 VLD/DTAC's etc. /6.5mm: 140/142 class of bullet (VLD/Hybrid/SMK/ELD) 7mm: 175SMK/VLD/Hybrid, 180 VLD Hybrid/SMK, 183 SMK and 197 SMK and 195 Ber.

Any of these case/bullet combinations will get you to 2k. The trick is having a tight enough twist to keep the bullet stable through the transonic range.

 

[IanHusaberg]

Like the post above says. It can be done? I have seen a Youtube video were a guy was shooting his 6.5 creedmor at 1900 Yards uphill, so that makes the shot a little shorter. I don't think that you will get to 2K supersonic with any short action round, that I know of in existence.

 

[CharlieNC]

I shot my 6.5x47 at one mile with the 140 eldm. It handled the transonic transition well, grouping ok. The main problem is I ran out of clicks and reticle, and was winging the hold beyond the mil hashes.

 

[2c1fr]

Op my question is do you have enough scope to get it there or are you going to hold over?

 

[delfuego]

The answer is no. Do you want the bullet to fly 2000 yards? Or do you actually want to hit something? 10% hit ratio is not shooting, it is artillery. So much BS in this thread it is ridiculous. You want to really shoot to 2k yards you will have to step up to a big-boy gun.

 

[dirtking]

What about the 6.5 saum with a 147 Eld-M?

 

[Bryan W M]

Could always try 260 and the flatlines.

 

[Supersubes]

I dont think you should bother with this. Sure, you can sling a few that way in the name of science, but you'll be shooting a whole lot of dirt. Speaking of that, whats the terrain like? Unless youre using a forward observer, you'll likely not see most of your misses.

 

[Mj1995]

6.5-284 can fit in a short action (if you load the bullets long you may have to single feed) though it isn't ideal. I'm building one on a long action. It might be able to get some hits at 2k with the right bullet but like stated before probably not very effective.

 

[NotMalware]

When I want shoot out to 2k yards I usually drive forward about 1k yards and shoot from there. But I'm not very good, so someone else may have a better method.

 

[Supersubes]

When I want shoot out to 2k yards I usually drive forward about 1k yards and shoot from there. But I'm not very good, so someone else may have a better method.

I think your method is wise, and should be encouraged in this thread! Lol

 

[dannySH]

I think your method is wise, and should be encouraged in this thread! Lol

When I want shoot out to 2k yards I usually drive forward about 1k yards and shoot from there. But I'm not very good, so someone else may have a better method.

Lol. This is for sure one of the best methods I ever heard!

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

When I want shoot out to 2k yards I usually drive forward about 1k yards and shoot from there. But I'm not very good, so someone else may have a better method.

hahahahaha. This may happen depending on how it goes!

I have no problem stepping up to a "big boy gun" . Was just hoping to dip a foot in the pool before I tried to be Michael Phelps. Scope wise I'm running a 4.5-27 Razor 2. I know I have at least 20mils of travel available but I'll check the actual once I get back to my rifle. Running some quick drop charts it seems any 7mm or 6.5mm at short action std bolt face caliber velocities is going to run out of steam about 1500 to 1600yrds. Might as well stick with my 6creedmoor and try for 1600yrds until I build up a proper ELR rifle. Was hoping to rebarrel a Remington into a 223 but may throw a magnum bolt face in it and go 300WSM.

Terrain is red-ish clay and rock, fairly flat lands. I have no idea how they set up their spotting/range yet...was just trying to do some research leg work and know how deep ill have to dig into my pockets before I get hooked.

 

[mi223]

Check out the thread on here about the 6.5 addiction. They are getting some incredible velocity in a short action.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[sandwarrior]

I get tired of heaing from the "been there, done that crowd (who haven't) that it can't be done. We do it all the time.

It is true that a "big boy" rifle will beat this class of cartridges. But, the SA class that I mentioned above will get out there no problem.

 

[delfuego]

Running some quick drop charts it seems any 7mm or 6.5mm at short action std bolt face caliber velocities is going to run out of steam about 1500 to 1600yrds. Might as well stick with my 6creedmoor and try for 1600yrds until I build up a proper ELR rifle.

It is a very big jump from 1600y to 2000y and is not easy to overcome. Even the 7saum really runs out of gas after 1600-1700y. Also the biggest thing to consider is wind. While bullets may theoretically make it to 2k yards, a 1mph wind could blow them 3 feet left or right of your target. If you really want to make consistent impacts you will want a bigger caliber. If you just want to take a poke once or twice, it doesn't matter, it's just for shits and giggles. Save your cash and build a long action, or better yet a really big action. Cheers!

I get tired of heaing from the "been there, done that crowd (who haven't) that it can't be done. We do it all the time.

All day long? If you do your part?

 

[sandwarrior]

Delfuego,

It clearly shows you don't know what you think you know.
First, it"s not theoretical, it's been done a number of times, so it's fact.

Second, taking what has been said out of context (not including my whole quote) and then mocking it is ignoring the fact that 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm bullets that are heavy for caliber and formed specifically for long range shooting can get to 2k accurately. Notice how I did not include .25 and .27. They don't have the bullets or rifling twists to stabilize long range bullets.

Thirdly, your sarcasm about this ignored the fact that I said a larger caliber with an efficient bullet will beat it. Part of long range shooting no matter what you shoot is calling the wind correctly. A lot of. "big boy" misses occur because they failed to correctly identify the proper wind call.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Maybe the .284 Win.

Greg

 

[sandwarrior]

Maybe the .284 Win.

Greg

Another good one, but requires single feeding in SA with the heavy, high BC projectiles.

 

[psinclair]

6.5 4S will do it....that's not a guess. 140 JLK's at 3200fps. Will be trying out the new 135 JLK's at that distance in a couple weeks at my shoot. Pointed these are .655G1, un pointed, .620G1

 

[NotMalware]

I thought about an extreme long range barrel for my AX308 a while back, and I looked at the options a little bit. Since it's limited to the 308 bolt face I figured that it was fine to single feed for this special purpose barrel, and when I swap the 6.5creed back I could use the magazine and such. So assuming that we are single feeding in an accuracy international I thought the 280AI with berger 195 elite hunting bullets would be a a good option or a 6.5mm-06 with the hornady ELD match 147 gr. I would have preferred a 6.5 saum or something like that, but the bolt face precludes that. In the end I dropped the project. To me, it seem like the best option for this kind of thing is to build a rifle for the purpose, but it's certainly cheaper to just buy a "special" barrel for the AI and have a ELR option. I can appreciate that kind of thinking. It might be a good idea to look at the monolithic high BC bullets and work backward from there. Good luck!

 

[sandwarrior]

6.5 4S will do it....that's not a guess. 140 JLK's at 3200fps. Will be trying out the new 135 JLK's at that distance in a couple weeks at my shoot. Pointed these are .655G1, un pointed, .620G1

Hey! Long Time no hear from. How ya been? What is the 6.5 45? Anything like a short action mag reduced in length to 45 mm? If so that case would fit perfect for what the OP wants. How is it for getting a DBM?

 

[Derek200]

The answer is no. Do you want the bullet to fly 2000 yards? Or do you actually want to hit something? 10% hit ratio is not shooting, it is artillery. So much BS in this thread it is ridiculous. You want to really shoot to 2k yards you will have to step up to a big-boy gun.

As a former redleg I am greatly offended by your statement. 10% hit ratio would not be acceptable. 1st round fire for effect sir!


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[hohlspitz]

Hey! Long Time no hear from. How ya been? What is the 6.5 45? Anything like a short action mag reduced in length to 45 mm? If so that case would fit perfect for what the OP wants. How is it for getting a DBM?

Sandwarrior,

The 6.5 4S is the 6.5 GAP 4-S from GA Precision. It's the 6.5 RSAUM by any other name.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

So what does the 4s offer over a 260 or 260ai? Are the walls just blown out more for more case capacity? Been reading with how fat the cases are it can lower mag capacity in standard AI mags (not an issue) but couldn't find how they feed out of a AW mag.

 

[Bacarrat]

The 4S/6.5SUAM can push a 140gr bullet 3100-3200 FPS easily. You are not going to do that with a 260/260AI/6.5x47/ or 6.5 CM. As a short magnum round, none of those would feed out of a AW magazine. You would have to use AICS mags instead. I'm still waiting for someone to push the Warner Flatline 121 gr bullets out of 6.5SAUM. It should do every bit of 3400-3500 FPS, with a .670 G1 BC, that would get you out to 2K easy and be supersonic.

 

[sandwarrior]

So what does the 4s offer over a 260 or 260ai? Are the walls just blown out more for more case capacity? Been reading with how fat the cases are it can lower mag capacity in standard AI mags (not an issue) but couldn't find how they feed out of a AW mag.

The case is magnum size diameter, but .308 case length. I forgot the RSAUM cases are shorter than the WSM's. This would be an excellent choice.

Also, reading this on my phone (without my readers on) I didn't see the last digit was an s, not a 5.

If there is a workable magazine system, this would rock.

 

[steve123]

Just a side note.

A friend and I were shooting my 30-375R and his 6.5 4s yesterday at 2055Y. His load is 140 hybrids at 3060 fps and mine was approx the same speed with 208 eldm. We were shooting at a light colored rock on a cinder hill with 10 mph winds coming from behind us and mirage. We could make out impacts in the cinders making dust with my 30 cal but only "thought" we saw a occasional dust splash with his 6.5. Friend was quite frustrated. I hit the rock on the 4th shot but the first two shots were "no calls" because they had landed in the sagebrush a couple mils to the right.

At those distances conditions have to be optimal for seeing dust signature with lighter bullets. Target cam is the best idea I think.

Next time we plan on picking a calm morning and going early before mirage kicks up to see if we can pick up his shots at the same location.

I'd still like to try those Warner 122's in my 6.5 Saum though! Mine has a 29" barrel and wouldn't be surprised if I got 3600 fps with the appropriate powder. R-26???

 

[308220]

I just dont see a 6.5 anything as a legit 2k hard option. As previously stated, spotting your misses is extremely difficult. Sure, some of the big 6.5's can get there, but are you going to hit the target first shot? No. Good luck walking that bullet in.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

One key factor we haven't touched on is altitude. I live in high desert at 4800ft ASL.

Calculating a .260 Rem trajectory using the Hornady standard ballistics calculator and the G7 BC of .315, results get a bit optimistic. I estimate an MV or 2850 for the 143 ELD-X, which is an observed rough velocity for the 140 V-Max and 142SMK in my 28" barrel. Current (8am) values of 72F, 15% humidity, and 29.82" are real numbers.

The cheat sheet shows the bullet entering transsonic at around 1500yd and reaching 1119fps at 1800yd. 2000yd come-up is indicated as 82MOA. That's falling short, but maybe not by enough to totally disqualify the attempt. I can't say, and I'm in no position currently to put it to a real world test.

Greg

 

[308220]

Sure, if you want to live on a mountain top, it shouldnt be an issue. But for the majority of the population, who doesnt live on a mountain top, 2k yards with a 6.5 just isnt feasable. I wont be moving to the mountains so I can shoot steel targets at 2k yards with my 6.5-284.

If a 6.5 is a legit 2k yard caliber, then my 308 win is a legit 1500 yard gun. Besides measuring the 6.5 wind drift at 2k yards in mil/moa, we'll just call it in bus lengths instead.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Haha. Good but mixed info in here. I really think my next step is to just go out and see what range/spotting setups they have and try my luck stretching my 6creed until i decide if i want to go big bore setup. Had i known i had this range like a month ago i would have gotten the long action AX haha. But hey...legit excuse for a new rifle!

altitude might as well be sea level...i think the highest is like 350ft. So no alt. Advantage.

 

[sandwarrior]

I'd say at this point just get your 6Creed out there and see what it will do. You might be very surprised.

.308
The .308 would be a legitimate 1500 yd. round if there were bullets and twists made for them. The first step in the right direction is to get some Flatline bullets and see how well they do. The next is to get a tighter twist than 1-10".

FWIW, 338's and big .30's drift in the wind bad enough to make you miss too. Their rate of success isn't much better than the little rounds either for first round hits at 2k. You have to know the ballistics no matter what you shoot.

 

[delfuego]

One key factor we haven't touched on is altitude. I live in high desert at 4800ft ASL.

We shoot at 9-10k DA regularly. Even at this altitude a 7 SAUM it a 1600-1 mile gun.

As a former redleg I am greatly offended by your statement. 10% hit ratio would not be acceptable. 1st round fire for effect sir!

I apologize for my statement. Wrong analogy. On target, fire for effect!

 

[308220]

.308
The .308 would be a legitimate 1500 yd. round if there were bullets and twists made for them. The first step in the right direction is to get some Flatline bullets and see how well they do. The next is to get a tighter twist than 10

I do love my 18" barreled 308, but I do know its limitations, and I dont really take it seriously much past 800 yards shooting 178 bthp. It is certainly capable of reaching further, but drop/drift make it a chore to make reliable hits. Imo

 

[darth_ritis]

I mainly shoot 308 and 6mm and am looking for a caliber to reach to 2k.

Which 6mm? 6mm Rem? I don't think a 308 can be pushed that far without needing a crazy optics setup.

I'd look into either a 243 AI or 260 AI chambering. A fast enough twist in the barrel to stabilize heavy bullets like the 110 SMK or 147 ELD-M might do it if your density altitude is high enough. Or, the 260 AI might do better with the standard 8" twist and the new Flatline solid bullets. A longer barrel with slower powder might help get enough velocity.

Should be fun to try, as long as you don't expect cold bore head shots. Good luck spotting hits at that distance! ;-)

 

[darth_ritis]

Sorry just noticed the additional info - 6mm Creedmoor, near sea level. I don't think anything in a short action will reach that far at sea level and still be supersonic.

There are some crazy people out there shooting extreme ELR distances where supersonic -> transsonic -> subsonic all happens before reaching the target. Most of these aren't first round hits, but sometimes they can get consistent, repeatable hits if the wind is steady. You might search ELR info for recommended bullets and spotting setups for this type of shooting.

 

[SMTGWKD]

I'd say at this point just get your 6Creed out there and see what it will do. You might be very surprised.

.308
The .308 would be a legitimate 1500 yd. round if there were bullets and twists made for them. The first step in the right direction is to get some Flatline bullets and see how well they do. The next is to get a tighter twist than 1-10".

FWIW, 338's and big .30's drift in the wind bad enough to make you miss too. Their rate of success isn't much better than the little rounds either for first round hits at 2k. You have to know the ballistics no matter what you shoot.

Just a quick observation - I am by no means an accomplished shooter, but really enjoy the challenge of long range shooting. I really appreciate the sandwarrior's insight in this thread. At the encouragement of many on this forum (including sandwarrior in another thread) I skipped the "big boy" calibers for now to enjoy extended shooting sessions at distances of up to 1800 yards. I posted a thread in this section of my results with a 26" DTA in 6.5 Creedmoor at 1,768 yards a week or so ago with 7/10 hits on a 30" plate with Hornady 147 ELD-M FACTORY ammunition moving just 2600 or so feet per second. Only one bullet key-holed the target and the drop called by BallisticsARC was dead on at 1768 yards at 22.3 Mils after truing velocity at 1000 yards. I easily spotted all 3 of my misses just off the right edge of the target and could spot every hit but the key-hole on light steel at that distance through a Vortex Razor AMG.

I just finished a ladder test of RL 17 which tightened from .25" CTC factory groups to one-hole, .023" CTC results that pushes the 143 ELD-X (have had a hard time tracking down the 147s until yesterday) at 2820-2875 fps and should hopefully reduce the vertical spread quite a bit and tighten the group at a mile. With similar velocity (expected to get about 2800 fps) and the 147s (which I'll have this Wednesday) BallisticsARC calls for 19.0 Mils at 1800 yards and 23.3 Mils at 2000 yards and still traveling at 1104 fps at 2000 yards. Granted, my DA is about 5500-6500 depending on conditions in my shooting areas.

I'd wager that some may think that what I did my first trip out to a mile was either impossible or a lie - but it's neither. While my rifle isn't the best tool for this particular application it seems that every caliber is a compromise in velocity, drift, recoil, barrel life, accuracy, etc - the list goes on and on. For me, I've settled on a 6.5 as a wonderfully capable compromise for ranges out to 2000 yards that I can enjoy shooting all day long. That said, I'll absolutely be adding either a 7mm or .300 magnum iteration in the future for all the reasons listed above - a better tool for the job, but at the possible premium of recoil and extended shooting sessions.

In short, I really enjoy doing things that other say I shouldn't be able to do. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't - but I'll post a video of my results at a mile with my new loads with evidence to either result. Try it and you might be surprised how consistent your results may be.

 

[SMTGWKD]

Sorry just noticed the additional info - 6mm Creedmoor, near sea level. I don't think anything in a short action will reach that far at sea level and still be supersonic.

There are some crazy people out there shooting extreme ELR distances where supersonic -> transsonic -> subsonic all happens before reaching the target. Most of these aren't first round hits, but sometimes they can get consistent, repeatable hits if the wind is steady. You might search ELR info for recommended bullets and spotting setups for this type of shooting.

I just noticed this as well - however, the heavy for caliber bullets seem to make that transition pretty effectively. I would be interested to see the results with 6 creedmoor as my first trip to these types of distances used all super to sub rounds and they actually seemed to fare well. As you say, my wind was steady though...

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

The answer is no. Do you want the bullet to fly 2000 yards? Or do you actually want to hit something? 10% hit ratio is not shooting, it is artillery. So much BS in this thread it is ridiculous. You want to really shoot to 2k yards you will have to step up to a big-boy gun.

Tell that to a friend who was shooting one of my rifles in the URSA competitions at 2050y. It's documented. His rifle is chambered in 7 WSM shooting 180 Bergers at 3000 fps. In the final he went 7 out of 10 for the win that day. I'd say that's more than a 10% hit ratio. Conditions were optimum with a 5mph wind @3500 elevation. I agree the larger calibers are much more ideal, but It can be done.

 

[sandwarrior]

I thought I'd get this thread moving again with a question to the OP. Are you considering a SA in standard cartridges or would the 6.5-4S be an option. Some are considering the SA for low recoil, while others want the SA for a faster bolt cycle. Are there any specific considerations you have?

Added: I thought I would add that one big consideration for me would be a good DBM system with available 10-20 rd. mags. SA's have the best options followed by the "big boy" magnums. Someone posted previously that the 6.5-4S has a workable system available.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Only reason I was trying to get the job done in a SA standard bolt face is I have a AX short action as my primary rifle . My highest mag/best optic (razor2 4.5-27)is on this rifle also so I was trying to keep the initial cost down and just spin up a barrel in a cal that would potentially get me closer to the 2k than my 6creedmoor would. Seems 6.5creedmoor may get me closer with a long barrel.

like all lr/elr shooting I know wind will mean 90% or more of this. Im not fooled into thinking some fancy cal will make me better but I do want something that will give me enough gas to get me there. This isnt going to be packed through the woods so barrel length up to 30" is fine if that's what it takes, not using for competition so no velocity limits, barrel life I don't care about...i do all my own machine work so its just barrel blank cost to me.

 

[sandwarrior]

Only reason I was trying to get the job done in a SA standard bolt face is I have a AX short action as my primary rifle . My highest mag/best optic (razor2 4.5-27)is on this rifle also so I was trying to keep the initial cost down and just spin up a barrel in a cal that would potentially get me closer to the 2k than my 6creedmoor would. Seems 6.5creedmoor may get me closer with a long barrel.

like all lr/elr shooting I know wind will mean 90% or more of this. Im not fooled into thinking some fancy cal will make me better but I do want something that will give me enough gas to get me there. This isnt going to be packed through the woods so barrel length up to 30" is fine if that's what it takes, not using for competition so no velocity limits, barrel life I don't care about...i do all my own machine work so its just barrel blank cost to me.

As noted, several of the SA options listed in this thread will give you enough gas to get there.

 

[Supersubes]

Tell that to a friend who was shooting one of my rifles in the URSA competitions at 2050y. It's documented. His rifle is chambered in 7 WSM shooting 180 Bergers at 3000 fps. In the final he went 7 out of 10 for the win that day. I'd say that's more than a 10% hit ratio. Conditions were optimum with a 5mph wind @3500 elevation. I agree the larger calibers are much more ideal, but It can be done.

If you read the OP's post, he's using a short AI and youre talking about a short mag, something he can't use. One good day with anything will happen from time to time, we all shoot screamer groups now and again. We have to be honest with ourselves about day in and day out performance, and 10% is probably a pretty good estimation.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

If you read the OP's post, he's using a short AI and youre talking about a short mag, something he can't use. One good day with anything will happen from time to time, we all shoot screamer groups now and again. We have to be honest with ourselves about day in and day out performance, and 10% is probably a pretty good estimation.

Roger that.

 

[shamir]

Spin up a 30" barrel in the largest case capacity 6.5 that can work in an AI short action- 6.5 SLR/6.5 addiction/.260 AI. Then use the new Warner flatline 122 grain solid bullets with a G1 BC over .65. Lowlight could get them going at 3100 out of a 23" barrel 6.5 Creedmoor so with longer barrel and more case capacity, you should be able to get them going 3200 fps+. Another option would be a 7mm-08 with a 30" barrel running the 151 flatlines at 2900+ fps. The last option is to just go with a 1:9 twist .308, load the 198 flatlines, and see if you can get them above 2600 fps with a 30". You'll have to single-feed, since the 198s in .308 will never fit in a short action magazine. All of these should be supersonic till 2000 yards. The higher BC bullets will have lower wind drift and more hit % at that range, but with more recoil.

 

[orkan]

Short action cartridges are not often thought to be acceptable at 2000yds. The magnum variants such as 7WSM/SAUM and 300WSM type cartridges are the only types which can have reasonable success. Though it is worth mentioning that those cartridges are not setup favorably when stuffed down to function adequately in a short action magazine system. Having been to quite a few "ELR shoots" over the years, you just don't see short action cartridges being competitive by any definition. Therein lies the problem; the definition by which people use to describe capabilities differs greatly from person to person. The word "accurate" means something different to everyone, it seems, as does the word "capable."

I put questions like this into two categories of people:

1) Those that define success by what happens the vast majority of the time with the first round from the rifle. While it is sure that you can land bullets from small cartridges at great distances, doing it on the first shot on a reasonably sized target is another matter. I have a number of extremely expensive rifle systems using large and capable chamberings and struggle to make 1st round hits at 2000yds on reasonably sized targets in anything but the best conditions. A reasonably sized target is 1MOA. At a mile, a full size IPSC serves well. Even in the best of conditions there are usually more misses than hits at 2000yds with that first round. Even with cartridges such as 7LRM and 375CT and the best support equipment money can buy, it is quite difficult.

2) Those that define success by making a hit, any hit, with any number of rounds. Target sized used by this group of folks is usually gigantic. Measured in feet rather than inches. They lay down behind their rifles and walk rounds in like an artillery crew. Enough bullets down range, and some of them eventually land on the gargantuan targets. 'Tis true, they did hit it, and it is indeed however far away.

Bottom line is that you aren't going to read your way to 2000yd competence. Find yourself some open spaces and start trying to do the thing you're asking about. You'll soon see for yourself what is truth from what is fiction. I spend the majority of my time with smaller, more efficient cartridges these days. There's only a certain amount of recoil that can be properly managed in field positions. The answer to hits isn't always bigger cartridges. Wisdom and experience... that is the answer. You won't get either behind your keyboard.