2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can we preview the paperwork that we will be signing at the Event.</div></div>I answered this very clearly in my last post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Utah law as I read it, looks like I can Cary</div></div>Well, you can't carry a loaded pistol during this match. The rules state:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The entire competition area is a "cold range."
- No firearms may be loaded at the match site except under the direct command of a RO. </div></div>
I would recommend that competitors use a belt holster, kydex, leather, or flap-style. None of these would reasonably be considered "hidden or secreted."

My other comments about this are in the last paragraph of my prior post.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I'll be out of town scouting stage locations this weekend and at SHOT Show next week, and probably unable to respond to questions during those times.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be out of town scouting stage locations this weekend and at SHOT Show next week, and probably unable to respond to questions during those times.
</div></div>

Can we get 6 digit grids on the scout locs?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Even if I did, it wouldn't help.

 

[SRSDriver]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Is the scoring such that the time it takes to complete the land nav (and overall event) helps fast moving teams? Or is it everyone covering the same terrain, with a cutoff time, and accumulating points for the special challenges only?

I've inferred it's the former, but thought I'd check...

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Faster teams will be able to score better.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

A bunch of apps came in the mail today-- I'll update the "who's in" thread when I get back from my trips.

 

[Jong]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Are you coming close to the limit? Just curious because my partner should have sent in an app and it might be one of those.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

We're around 20 teams now and have room for at least 20 more.

 

[Not_A_Llama]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

So there's some indication of what equipment will need to be purchased/financed/packed:

-Would you expect the [winning] team to sleep/make camp at some point, or will the event be through the night?
-Will an illuminated reticle be a requirement?
-Will camouflage and/or a ghillie suit be required?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Ray, Cody, and I scouted almost the entire property on Saturday. It's big; we could easily get a 60 mile land nav on the property. We are still aiming for around 30 miles baseline, with extra control points for extra points. In case it's not obvious from the topo, there are <span style="text-decoration: underline">serious</span> changes in elevation on the terrain features. Make sure you are in shape to hike at altitude.

Answers to questions:

You can stop all you want but you can earn more points the faster you go and there will be distance/time cutoff points, e.g. if you don't make it to station 7 by 0130 you have to quit for safety. We might allow bypassing at an appropriate point penalty at some bypasses, but no guarantees. I expect the winning team to go straight through, just stopping for food, water, the challenges, and personal maintenance.

There is no rule requiring an illuminated reticle. You may be required to shoot in the dark, however. Your call.

Camo is not required and there will be no "stealth" challenges/tests (no stalk). It is better for safety if you wear bright colors that stand out in this environment.

We will get a short "required safety equipment" list out to look at and plan to after we get back from SHOT Show.

 

[6.5x47]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Concerning the CC or OC questions. Utah is an extremely gun friendly state. One does not need any permit to OC. The firearms needs to be "not" chambered unless you have a CC permit. The standard Federal premises (post office) and private property rules apply to where if a property owner/manager asks you to leave you need to comply. If you refuse, it's a trespassing charge and not gun related. To CC, of course you need to have a CC permit.

Hope this helps. Then again, Zak's responses should be sufficient for the competition itself.

6.5x47

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

We just got back from SHOT Show promoting this match (and the other CD matches). There is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">lot</span> of interest in the 24HSAC, we've signed on a lot of major sponsors, and we have some great leads for potential TV coverage.

 

[Graham]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Has it been decided how the Range Officers will be split up for their work? Will there be one assigned to each team, or a group of observers with binos along high-points the route, or officials manning checkpoints?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Part of this challenge is operating with less than full information and managing unknowns-- some things you won't know until you get the task briefing right before you have to do something.

I can tell you that: definitely all shooting stages will be manned for safety and scoring; and you will not be escorted through the race by an RO.

We have already zeroed in on all the major match parameters at this point, but we're giving out only certain bits of information for preplanning.

hope this helps
Zak

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I'm back from SHOT Show and caught up to date processing applications. If you've send in an app, check the forum link on the match web site to make sure I've received it. Thanks.

Also, let me draw your attention to some clarification. Ballistic computers were never prohibited. GPS's, electronic maps, two-way communications devices, and active night vision optics/goggles are prohibited. I've added to the rules page to clarify this since there was some confusion.

 

[Zenon4060]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Under the map tab on the website, are the blue lines that outline the area we will be in for the challenge accurate? It just doesn't seem big enough to possibly get 60 miles of land nav out of.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

The google map outline is just the general area, not the actual property boundaries.

The map at the MyTopo link includes the entire area.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Woohoo, looks like our application made it in!

 

[jbailey]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak-

Any update on the required first aid packing list? thanks,

-James

 

[Graham]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You aren't going to have loaded firearms unless you are at a control point/stage under the direction of an RO; if you choose to carry one or more of them in a pack or otherwise contained they won't be loaded; and finally at a shooting match one can reasonably expect that the competitors have the required firearms and they are not "hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence"</div></div>Will there be anything in the competition rules that require the pistol to be worn on the person at all times instead of being carried within a pack and will the pistol stages require draw and fire from the holster?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Graham,

Already there. Check out what is currently rule Equipment-3.2

James,

We're working hard on the required safety/equipment list. I should have something ready next week. In the mean time, I can tell you it will include (<span style="text-decoration: underline">this is a partial list only</span>):

Per team
6 4-foot lengths of 1 inch tubular nylon
1 military style duffel bag
1 shovel (will not be carried during race, but you will need it)
1 pen type flare launcher with 6 flares ,* tru-flare recommended
1 GPS with batteries (will be sealed by staff along with cell phones)

Per person
1 Hydration system, 3 liters total
1 White strobe light (emergency use only)
1 Red flashing strobe bike-type light (to be worn in the hours of darkness)
1 Reflective belt to be worn on around the rucksack
1 emergency space blanket
1 Whistle
1 Compass (not digital or a wrist compass)
1 Firesteel type fire starter or magnesium block
1 Survival mirror
1 Whistle on outside of pack
1 ID packet including your full contact info, your partner's info and any other trip companions, and at least two emergency contacts, and any relevant personal medical information

* first aid kit contents TBD

 

[Jong]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Damn, are you a retired Sergeant Major? Do boots have to be shined also?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Believe me, we're trying to keep it as non-prescriptive as possible but still make sure the right equipment is out there if a team gets themselves in trouble.

 

[melody]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I have never been to Wyoming. I look forward to this!

 

[melody]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I have never been to Wyoming. I look forward to this!

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melody</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never been to Wyoming. I look forward to this! </div></div> Might want to recheck your map on that one...

 

[jbailey]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak-
copy. thanks!

 

[Graham]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,
Already there. Check out what is currently rule Equipment-3.2</div></div>Saw that. Still not sure if there will be draw and fire stages (At R.O. we have to carry the pistol at all times but stages never require a draw). Can I asume that 3.2 means the holster must be worn outside the pack and can be secured to the molle of the waist belt of the pack?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Sorry- Yes, you will have to draw a loaded pistol. Prior to a stage you will get a load-and-make-ready (LAMR) after receiving a stage briefing.

I will issue a clarification about where the holster may be mounted.

 

[Devils_Emissary]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I have a drop holster...will that suffice?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

That would be fine.

 

[6.5x47]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Have never used a drop holster on the leg. How comfortable or uncomfortable would they be on a longish hike such as this?

6.5x47

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Here's the holster ruling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holster may be "mounted" to your person or to your pack only. If it is mounted to the pack, it may only be mounted on a waist belt in such a manner that it can be drawn by the competitor without removing his pack. Any holster connected to the pack waist-belt must be a closed retention-style flap holster. Cross-draw configurations are not allowed regardless of where the holster is mounted. </div></div>

 

[gebhardt02]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Hi Zak. Sorry to keep beating this dead horse but where it says closed retention-style flap holster, would a Safariland type holster with rotating hood suffice? When I think "flap" the old leather cav type holsters come to mind. Thanks.

Geb

 

[Devils_Emissary]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I didn't know how comfortable the drop holster would be either but I love it. I hardly notice it's there when I walk around. I can lay prone and it still isn't in the way. It's fully adjustable so you can make it comfortable for you. Doesn't move around like you think it would when you walk/ run. Really natural and easy draw. I think it's faster and easier to draw than a waist holster. Definitely don't have to worry about retention problems when walking around or conducting activities. I have the Black hawk serpa holster.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Here you go
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(* For the purposes of this rule, a holster is a flap holster if it has a movable part that covers the rear of the pistol and physcially prevents the pistol from leaving the holster, and is held in position by some mechanism such as a hook, latch, button, etc. A retention holster without a rear flap does not quality.) </div></div>
A rotating hood would qualify because it goes behind the pistol and blocks the pistol from leaving the holster, provided that the hood is held in place by some mechanism. A detent with sufficient tension would count as a mechanism.

Hope this helps
Zak

 

[Pengy]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I'm going to have to keep an eye on this one. I know I'm not where near ready for something like this right now, but maybe another one will come up that I can make it to.

 

[Mead]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Just got in, SO EXCITED. Best competition idea ever, I'd like to see more of this type of competition, with more focus on the fieldcraft than the shooting. I can think of very few situations where the fieldcraft isn't more important than the shooting.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the holster ruling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holster may be "mounted" to your person or to your pack only. If it is mounted to the pack, it may only be mounted on a waist belt in such a manner that it can be drawn by the competitor without removing his pack. Any holster connected to the pack waist-belt must be a closed retention-style flap holster. Cross-draw configurations are not allowed regardless of where the holster is mounted. </div></div></div></div>

This is probably an obvious one, but are we permitted or expected to move the holster from the pack to our belt and back? IE, should I expect to wear the holster on the pack waist-belt while navigating, then move onto the belt for the duration of a course of fire sans pack, then back onto the pack for movement to the next station? Or are we pretty much never removing the pack at any time?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I certainly would not recommend doing that, but it is not strictly prohibited. You should be prepared to shoot and complete challenges with all your gear.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak-
Can you provide clarification on the military style duffel bag, specifically: what volume capacity it must be and must it be made of heavy duty canvas?
thanks,
-James

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Standard 36"X24" military duffel bag

 

[Graham]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6.5x47</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have never used a drop holster on the leg. How comfortable or uncomfortable would they be on a longish hike such as this?</div></div>After 30 miles it could do a very good job of wearing your leg raw. But a lot depends on your build, gait and body type.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I would strongly recommend testing out various holster/pack/carrier/rifle gear setups to find what will really work <span style="font-style: italic">for you</span>.

 

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would strongly recommend testing out various holster/pack/carrier/rifle gear setups to find what will really work <span style="font-style: italic">for you</span>.</div></div>

I'll second that! You really have to get out and try all your gear out. Wear it all day and see what you think. I learned a ton by shooting in the Team Challenge last year. My sling pack from 5.11 worked good and I'll actually end up carrying less stuff this year. But I ended up changing the sling on my carbine for something different and I ended up bumping the power of my .223 ammo way up. Making the cross over from 3-Gun was a challenge. Were I really didn't need to get hard hitting shots on steel at 500 yards and I didn't have any issues with identifying targets. Now that has all changed.

These matches are a great learning experience. I think it's a little easier for long range guys to make the cross over into this kind of match but this one looks pretty tricky to pack for.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Just an update on the required gear list. We are trying to find a vendor to produce a first aid and trauma kit that has the same stuff on our [not yet published] list. Once that's sorted out I'll post the whole thing.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Here is another detail question:

will the radio issued be around the size of a PRC-148 MBITR or will it be larger (hopefully not a PRC-77

)? I have a MOLLE MBITR pouch that I was hoping to use.

thanks again.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

The radios we are currently planning to use will fit in most M16 magazine pouches (soft, not rigid).

 

[gebhardt02]

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak,

Have you tried here: http://store.nols.edu/Store/pc/home.asp
or here: http://www.galls.com/google/product...A04E197A2D4360673652A777A7B?assort=1&cat=9553

Geb