2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

[Rich Emmons]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

All this above has been discussed thoroughly by our committee of bright minds

and our final thoughts were not to exclude matches like Rifles Only that included a few pistol events to mix of a precision rifle match.
Shoot and move , move and shoot seems to be the favor over laying down all day in a pasture. The freedom is with the MD and the shooters will choose on where they like to go, and the Series will cover those events where skill set is the strongest.

 

[cowboy_coffee]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Rich,

Just checking if you are going to answer my posts in regard to the money orders...and shipment of the Charlie Roberston Score High Action/barrel

Fermin

 

[Irrigator]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Personally I think everyone one needs to relax and see how this series pans out. Something new always has issues at first, and it is how those issues are handld and managed that will determine how successful the series becomes. There is several references about other series/competitions on what works and does not. Remember that this is new and there is a chance that the people setting this up don't want to be a cookie cutter match series.

Support the series!!! In 5 years everyone involved will be part of something to appreciate and be proud of.

 

[blklabs]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

From my perspective, I could care less if someone wants to lower their standards and try to game the system. That is probably going to happen but we will all know who it was. Personally, when I go to a match I want to win and I want to do it against the best competition I can find. If someone else wants to game it so be it, but I won't lower my standards. This series will allow me to see how I stand against the best shooters in the country over the next year. I am just hoping that I do well enough to secure the last spot in the finale!

I think it is good to have everything vetted out prior to the start, however in the end if there are legitimate issues I know they will have a committee that will render a fair and respectable decision. I want to thank Rich, Kevin and Wade and everyone else that is putting this together. I think this will be huge for the sport and no matter what our personal opinions are on certain aspects of the rules, we all need to stand behind them and support this.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

In any competitive venture where there is a significant reward (if only a title), people will optimize their behavior to maximize the potential reward payoff and minimize the costs - or to put another way, change behavior to give them the best advantage they can, within the rules set out. It's a fact of life, and it's not bad either. That's kind of the whole point of competition. But the way the system is laid out will inevitably influence competitor choices and behavior.

It's best to have as many cases as possible fully specified from the beginning, instead of a decision after the question comes up, regardless of how just the final decision is.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

The way the series is defined now, 25% of the qualifying events are held in Kingsville, TX, with another one only about 370 miles away (Frost). If you count the finale, then 44% of the entire series in is two towns (Frost and Kingsville) which are only about a half-day's drive away from each other. If you count all events, over 50% are held in TX.

Is this intended to be a Texas rifle series, or a national type series?

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way the series is defined now, 25% of the qualifying events are held in Kingsville, TX, with another one only about 370 miles away (Frost). If you count the finale, then 44% of the entire series in is two towns (Frost and Kingsville) which are only about a half-day's drive away from each other. If you count all events, over 50% are held in TX.

Is this intended to be a Texas rifle series, or a national type series?
</div></div>

I would love to see more events that are easier to get to for guys out east, like myself. I plan to travel for some of the events but cant make it to as many as I would like to.

Definitely gives guys in TX a better shot. I know that its not intentional and Im not complaining.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Give us some names of national level competitions that fit the tactical mold that would make you happy.

Dustin

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

If one wanted to produce a relatively balanced national points series, it's easy to find several established matches on the east and west coasts and in the "mid-west" region, which could keep the geographical mix of the series pretty even.

 

[blklabs]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Zak,
When I mentioned gaming I wasn't talking about someone trying to perform the best within the rules. That is simply competition. I was referring more to bending/breaking the rules to try to get an advantage.

FYI, I don't have anything to do with the series and I am not on the committee. Reading through the thread, you are the top poster in it, so I am curious to see what specific matches you think should be added to the list.

Jonathan

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Just as a matter of reference,

You have Thunder Valley which holds quite a few competitions, you can asked ASC to put ROs in place so it is not the competitor scoring it. You have the Oregon Sniper Challenge, and then once this site does its reboot in 2012 with our matches that also becomes an option.

The key is actually taking the time to reach out and talk to these people that host these events. Even if you don't feel the format fits exactly, you can see if the MD is open to adjusting it so it will fit. Basically it keeps it from being a small clique of shooters who happen to attend the same few matches running a closed circuit down the center of the country. Keeps it from being the same 50 shooters over and over.

But again, this is just me looking inside, reading the thread.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically it keeps it from being a small clique of shooters who happen to attend the same few matches running a closed circuit down the center of the country. Keeps it from being the same 50 shooters over and over. </div></div>
Agree...

 

[blklabs]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Frank I thought about the Oregon and Thunder Valley facilities but I havent attended those just read the AAR's. Also, I am curious to hear more about the 2012 matches you are planning. However, since Zak had been asked about specific matches but didn't provide answers I was asking him the question again.

As with any great idea, I don't forsee qualifying matches on the east, mid west and west coast as being issues in the near future as I would think the committee would be receptive to those matches.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

I'm discussing it privately with Rich.. there are issues when considering a match, and what mix of matches to consider, but Frank really covered those issues well in his last post that I agreed with.

 

[blklabs]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Perfect.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

+1 on adding the OR Sniper Challenge. It is a real up and comer and has been improving year to year.

After shooting it this year, I think it would be a good contender with a few refinements on the round count and courses of fire.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Mammoth is running nearly 100 competitors per outing and the match improved greatly for the last event. It could be a possibility along with the PMG offerings.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Mammoth needs to be an individual match and it will be considered.
Steel safari is being considered.
Oregon is being reconsidered.
Waiting on developing news from las Vegas and Lowligh's new match.
ASC, we'll wait and see what they're plans are, I don't want to change any MD's format but will ask to see their plans are for 2012.

Believe me guys I want a good fair selection of matches all across the country to choose from but Have to be careful and not select matches where competition is questionable.

This will all work out and hopefully we will have 10-12 nationwide matches to choose from.
I

 

[gugubica]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

It'll get there guys.

One thing to consider is asking MDs that don't have appropriate matches to start one. If a match is part of the series and run well, it will attract top knotch competitors. That alone may be enough to get some more acceptable matches in various venues.

I would love to shoot 4 matches a year in TX, but it is tough. NM, CA and AZ are out of the question for me. There have got to be some great facilities in the Midwest that could be holding good matches, but aren't.

Rich, the first Mammoth match was individually scored, but the format would have to be greatly improved to be considered. I heard that the second match was a huge improvement, but it was, in fact a team match. Might be worth considering though.

If I have to, I could run one in central Missouri.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

If folks in the Midwest and East are wanting to have matches in their area, the only way that happens is if someone (hate to sound cliche) "just does it".
Find a range or private property that's suitable, read up on some matches or get a few guys that have attended a few different ones and have a match!
They don't just grow on trees, but you don't need to be secret squirrel hi level operator to put one on-gotta start somewhere!

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

I would definitely be willing to help someone set up and run a match in MT. I wish I had the space or property to do so but I don't. However, if there is someone in MT who does or knows someone who does. I would be willing to help out and put the thing together.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Pretty certain there are already folks running one or two matches in MT. I haven't shot them and have no experience with them. I can dig up the info from email if anyone needs me to.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Hey Zak. I'd appreciate the info if you can dig it up.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

There was a team match at the end of July in Reed Point, MT. I don't know anything else about this; I asked the guy I heard about it from for a link to something. If I get anything I'll repost it here.

There is a semi-regular match near Missoula http://marbut.com/Rifle/ Gary Marbut runs this.

My understanding is that the Reed Point match was kind of similar to the old ITRC, and that Marbut's match is kind of like the Sporting Rifle Match held at NRAWC.

These might not fit into the "individual major match" criteria envisioned for the series but like Frank said, contacting existing MDs is a first step.

 

[treebasher]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

These are five matches in Montana that I know of:

Stillwater Tactical
(This is a team match shot with long rifle, carbine & pistol. Very similar to the ITRC match format.)
http://www.stillwatertactical.com/longrange/index.html

Last Chance Handgunners
(This is a short range precision match.)
http://www.lastchancehandgunners.com/
Contact Austin Hecker at [email protected] for more information.

Augustis Ranch
(More of a shooting clinic. Very informal and lots o' fun.)
http://www.precisionrifle.org/
Contact Aug at [email protected] for more information.

Potomac Rifle Match
http://www.marbut.com/rifle
Contact Gary Marbut at [email protected] for more information.

Wyoming Tactical Rifle Championship
(This is a team match shot with long rifle, carbine & pistol. It is held right on the Montana/Wyoming border. Very similar to the ITRC match format.)
http://macsgunworks.com/WyomingTacticalGeneralInformation.aspx

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

There are plenty of matches around... but you have to pick up the phone or send an email to the MD in order to inquire.

if I recall something like this was tried with Thomas and Sniper Paradise back in 2002/03 and the reason it died was lack of communication and the exclusive nature of it. (I think it was from SP)

It's your show, so you can do what ever you like. But diversity is the key to success otherwise people will look at it as something they can't get into. So while it may work well for the core group, it won't get anything beyond comments of "some day" from most others.

With a poor economy you want to make the matches as easy as possible to attend. Less travel means more participation. More participation means something more desirable to sponsors and competitors alike. Having a set of guidelines for Match Directors to use in order to meet requirements for entry is extremely helpful and not being unreasonable. If you say you need X number of points, X Number of shots past 300, X number of alternate positions... whatever the case maybe then you have an organization worth supporting. If it's just gonna be matches and people you are personally familiar with and directors who are personal friends, well then why announce, you all know each anyways. Not like these matches aren't filling up on their own. Keeping it semi exclusive based on personal relationships just makes it something "cool" for everyone else to admire from the outside.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With a poor economy you want to make the matches as easy as possible to attend. Less travel means more participation. More participation means something more desirable to sponsors and competitors alike. Having a set of guidelines for Match Directors to use in order to meet requirements for entry is extremely helpful and not being unreasonable. If you say you need X number of points, X Number of shots past 300, X number of alternate positions... whatever the case maybe then you have an organization worth supporting. If it's just gonna be matches and people you are personally familiar with and directors who are personal friends, well then why announce, you all know each anyways. Not like these matches aren't filling up on their own. Keeping it semi exclusive based on personal relationships just makes it something "cool" for everyone else to admire from the outside.</div></div>
This made me think of a few things, so I'll just throw these out there as ideas, not criticisms:

* re: the economy. Another way to do it might be to throw the net (for matches to include) even wider, but not worry so much about format or size, etc. Use your discretion based on match size/difficulty/type and simply offer invitations to the appropriate shooters. There is precedent for this in pistol shooting. If someone wins 40% of a year's worth of hard monthly matches (like Mike Kolar's Sporting Rifle Match), maybe that's good for an invite. If someone places 9th at the Bash or some other big match, maybe that's good for an invite.

[ETA: ultimately the best thing to do is to go out and shoot all the matches, but almost nobody can afford to do that.]

* Some matches actually have IPSC/USPSA-style courses of fire (similar to a Standard) that you can replicate on any flat/square range, and positions and reloads, or whatever, and prescribed by the stage briefing. Other matches are run in the field, with targets all over the place, natural terrain blocking angles, changing visibility, and adding elevation changes, etc. A stage from either format cannot be replicated at the other type of venue.

* A shoot position might simply be "whatever you want within arms-reach of this stake in the ground/rock". If some guys can get prone on a big boulder and some can't, is that an "alternate" position?

* I've shot some so-called "sniper" matches that were 95% (of round count) on paper at 100 and 200 yards, with 30 guys on the line at once, even though it was billed as a match with field stages. IMO, pounding paper at 100-200 yards is not practical long-range rifle shooting, no matter what you print on the paper or what supporting activities you have to do. As a component of a match to verify close-range precision/zero/cold-bore/whatever? Sure.

* Matches in the same regions and run by the same group or groups that know each other tend to be very similar. This is due to the geography and access to land that is available, but it's also due to what the shooters and MDs want to shoot, or what they envision as a match. This is a good argument for geographical diversity of matches considered for any series.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Frank and Zak, pretty much said everything I was thinking but the grey matter couldn't organize it efficiently enough for me to spit it out to the keyboard.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This made me think of a few things, so I'll just throw these out there as ideas, not criticisms:

* re: the economy. Another way to do it might be to throw the net (for matches to include) even wider, but not worry so much about format or size, etc. Use your discretion based on match size/difficulty/type and simply offer invitations to the appropriate shooters. There is precedent for this in pistol shooting. If someone wins 40% of a year's worth of hard monthly matches (like Mike Kolar's Sporting Rifle Match), maybe that's good for an invite. If someone places 9th at the Bash or some other big match, maybe that's good for an invite.

[ETA: ultimately the best thing to do is to go out and shoot all the matches, but almost nobody can afford to do that.]
</div></div>

+1

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

This concept <span style="text-decoration: underline">will</span> continue to remain a Points Race, not an invite match. Knowing that some excellent shooters may be limited by funds and can not make three matches there is Two other ways to get in the finale and compete against the best people who have scored the best at the best matches across the country.

1) go shoot a Series match and win it.
2) go shoot TWO series matches and place Top 10% of all the contestants.

this is the concept.

The above matches have been chosen for good reason, they simply have the best match directors who create a fair well run match that attracts the best competition, anything less only creates problems for the Series.
more matches are being considered, but I can assure you not many more.
As of right now PRSS is only considering matches that fit that criteria:

Quality over Quantity is priority.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Good talking to you again Rich.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cocadori</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would definitely be willing to help someone set up and run a match in MT. I wish I had the space or property to do so but I don't. However, if there is someone in MT who does or knows someone who does. I would be willing to help out and put the thing together. </div></div>

I'd love to come up and shoot a match in Montana, just make sure its during fishing season so I can spend an extra day doing market research. LOL

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cocadori</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would definitely be willing to help someone set up and run a match in MT. I wish I had the space or property to do so but I don't. However, if there is someone in MT who does or knows someone who does. I would be willing to help out and put the thing together. </div></div>

I'd love to come up and shoot a match in Montana, just make sure its during fishing season so I can spend an extra day doing market research. LOL </div></div>

I hear ya! We manage a ranch that boarders the Madison. Been so busy that I haven't been able to wet a line yet... what a tragedy!

Desperately wanting to see a match or 3 within a few hours of me though! Closest one is 15 hrs.

 

[ssatt68]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich Emmons</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This concept <span style="text-decoration: underline">will</span> continue to remain a Points Race, not an invite match. Knowing that some excellent shooters may be limited by funds and can not make three matches there is Two other ways to get in the finale and compete against the best people who have scored the best at the best matches across the country.

1) go shoot a Series match and win it.
2) go shoot TWO series matches and place Top 10% of all the contestants.

this is the concept.

The above matches have been chosen for good reason, they simply have the best match directors who create a fair well run match that attracts the best competition, anything less only creates problems for the Series.
more matches are being considered, but I can assure you not many more.
As of right now PRSS is only considering matches that fit that criteria:

Quality over Quantity is priority.

</div></div>
Really?
First of all the PRSS is a great concept.
What about the international sniper comp at Ft Benning?
Most of us have pretty strong opinions about essential skills of precision riflemen based on training and experience and we all have a tendancy to favor our brand. Finding common ground for a format or course of fire may be difficult. Having an MD modify his match to PRSS standards may be challenging. The possibility of adding some matches to the mix as long as they cover some basic criteria (unknown dist past 600, target size etc) may add a whole bunch of interest. Growing the sport may require a little more inclusiveness. Disrespecting all but 8 matches and match directors is the fastest way to make the PRSS a regional series only.

Having regional PRSS that lead into a national championship may very well be the evolutionary process of the PRSS. Just about every sport incorporates the regional process, but to think that 8 matches having a limited number of shooters within tight travel and time parameters draws the best shooters every time may not be the shooter demographic that produces an undisputed (national) PRSS winner. Right now the “best” match criteria are subjective. A list of match requirements would be helpful for match directors even if the MDs do not have the ability to duplicate exact requirements maybe a 90% solution would qualify as a “best” match.

Home field advantage has been beaten to death, but it exists. Perhaps finding a new venue and developing a unique course of fire for the finale may provide a format that will determine the best shooter (an away game for everyone).

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

ssatt68,
ISC, Ft. Benning? -------MIL/LEO only as far as i know not wide open to civilians.
I think your missing the point on format, PRSS does not want to make any changes to any MD's formats<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rich Emmons</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The freedom is with the MD and the shooters will choose on where they like to go, and the Series will cover those events where skill set is the strongest.</div></div>
your right about growing the sport will require more inclusiveness.--- However, this is a first year attempt, and we are going on the know and not taking chances of having this fall flat with controversy.
Regarding Regional process,----- yes this could very well be a Texas Oklahoma (SW) regional, I could even make a Texas Series with well over 10 matches to choose from. But this is not the attempt thus far.
regarding "best" match criteria being subjective,----------- I would strongly argue that is very much Objective, having been a part of nearly every major type match in the country that gets any publicity in these forums or a direct line of communication with someone who has been has been the effort in these choices.

--- the list of requirements suggestions for MD's.-----
That simply is not gonna happen. with the exception of our committee criteria agreeing that Match (A), is safe, has fair distribution of scoring, scored accurately and fairly as possible, as a considerable amount of round count that focuses on precision, accuracy, advanced shooting skills, weapon handling skills , draws competitive shooters nationwide, etc. etc.

Lastly, With no respect in not including those matches that may just be new, not well known by our committee, or just haven't had the national draw of competitors to be considered a highly competitive match.
Team Matches just won't work for this format either and there is many good ones I'd like to include.

These will be the last comments I have regarding the PRSS formats until I have more information from some more MD's.
I will continue to take discussions and suggestions offline as I intend to include some more major type matches to the series in an honest effort to get the most people I can excited about registering for the Series and about competing in or being a supporting part of this Series without devaluing the integrity of it. I'm trying real hard to listen to some good advice I've received.... take baby steps and it will grow.

feel free to reach me most any evening @ 325-201-3826 or email [email protected].

 

[banks74]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Looking forward to seeing this all come together. Sounds like it could end up being pretty awesome.

 

[The Animal]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Rich, sounds like a blast! I'm in....

 

[NOMAD]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

All RO's and Match Directors of THEIR match SHOULD NOT be eligible to shoot their match for points towards the series as well!

 

[mparry]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All RO's and Match Directors of THEIR match SHOULD NOT be eligible to shoot their match for points towards the series as well! </div></div>
I'm with you on this.

 

[Wade]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: millman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All RO's and Match Directors of THEIR match SHOULD NOT be eligible to shoot their match for points towards the series as well! </div></div>
I'm with you on this. </div></div>

All involved agree on this.

 

[Malibumick]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

I concur

 

[ghorsley]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

Whoever posted about Ft. Benning being closed to civilians is mistaken. They are having a match at the 1000 yd range next month.

 

[Lucks]

Re: 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whoever posted about Ft. Benning being closed to civilians is mistaken. They are having a match at the 1000 yd range next month. </div></div>

They were referring to the International Sniper Competition held at Benning not allowing civilian competitors...