2020 PRS Finale info

[Dthomas3523]

Unless someone can actually go get that ruger rifle without backorder. Or it was available in mass and then sold out which created the backorder.

If not, that’s not “publicly available” by any means.

They said their rules are to prevent a 1 off rifle. So, what if I made a company website, gave a rifle to a shooter, then listed them in production ion and backordered.......according to this ruling, that’s ok.

 

[B-P-UU]

difference between 'you can't order direct but here is a dealer near you that has an order' and 'these are not available'

They clearly are available to order since dealers have them on order - that was confirmed. The rules don't say the product must be in stock.

Do you know how many cogs need to be in motion for a Ruger of the world to have an orderable part number let alone pictures on a website for a product and open orders?

If people can't see the difference between joe-gun plumber posting a pic on Facebook with "new production rifle, $2499" and the arduous process of bringing a new product/ part number to market for a huge manufacturing company like Ruger, I can't help you.

 

[Dthomas3523]

They clearly are available to order since dealers have them on order - that was confirmed. The rules don't say the product must be in stock.

Do you know how many cogs need to be in motion for a Ruger of the world to have an orderable part number let alone pictures on a website for a product and open orders?

If people can't see the difference between joe-gun plumber posting a pic on Facebook with "new production rifle, $2499" and the arduous process of bringing a new product/ part number to market for a huge manufacturing company like Ruger, I can't help you.

Playing devil’s advocate.

But how is it fair to let a sponsored ruger shooter compete in a class with a rifle no one else can get that season?

I do get the ruling on the sage rifle and don’t necessarily disagree with the ruling. But.....the ruger shouldn’t be allowed either.

 

[b6graham]

They clearly are available to order since dealers have them on order - that was confirmed. The rules don't say the product must be in stock.

Do you know how many cogs need to be in motion for a Ruger of the world to have an orderable part number let alone pictures on a website for a product and open orders?

If people can't see the difference between joe-gun plumber posting a pic on Facebook with "new production rifle, $2499" and the arduous process of bringing a new product/ part number to market for a huge manufacturing company like Ruger, I can't help you.

i'm not arguing. the 18085 RPR is actually a production gun.

but...not for the 2020 Finale

 

[B-P-UU]

Playing devil’s advocate.

But how is it fair to let a sponsored ruger shooter compete in a class with a rifle no one else can get that season?

I do get the ruling on the sage rifle and don’t necessarily disagree with the ruling. But.....the ruger shouldn’t be allowed either.

I agree.. Im not on "team Ruger" in this argument, just trying to lay out the differences.

My understanding is there are 13 of these ruger rifles in the wild, in shooters hands. Is that better than a single 1-off custom being touted as a production rifle... ?? Barely.

 

[Rob01]

I agree.. Im not on "team Ruger" in this argument, just trying to lay out the differences.

My understanding is there are 13 of these ruger rifles in the wild, in shooters hands. Is that better than a single 1-off custom being touted as a production rifle... ?? Barely.

In whose hands is the question. Joe off the street or their people testing them. Big difference.

 

[B-P-UU]

I demand a re-shoot.. Matt and Doug both get bone-stock RPR's with their optic of choice. Based on what I've seen,, Matt will mop the floor with him.. haha.

Hell, Shooting USA can televise it..

 

[Pvt.Donut]

I don't have a god in this fight but it looks like more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. Obviously the PRS isn't going to nix the Production Class but I'd think the rules need to be spelled out to avoid any post-match arbitration. Companies should have to submit their production models to the PRS for verification up-front, then the PRS provides a listing of these rifles that are accepted. Pre-match these rifles need to be verified they are acceptable for Production Class. If it's not on the list, it doesn't qualify, simple as that.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t worry, production optics is now $2500

So, $2500 rifle

$2500 optic

$1k triple leg ckyepod

$1500 419 maverick

$400 spuhr


$7900 “production” rig. Sucks to be those guys.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hey new guys or guys that don’t have a big budget.....shoot production.

Say what? Ya, that guy that has a pro rating using the $8k rig.....he’s in your class.

 

[b6graham]

Hey new guys or guys that don’t have a big budget.....shoot production.

Say what? Ya, that guy that has a pro rating using the $8k rig.....he’s in your class.

base class in NRL22/NRL22x is ACTUALLY a limited/beginner class

 

[ma smith]

Require minimum production # made and sold prior to approval

 

[Dthomas3523]

base class in NRL22/NRL22x is ACTUALLY a limited/beginner class

This is why I’m a fan of skill classes based on scores. Literally requires no gear restrictions.

If a guy with a $3k vudoo shoots same as the guy with a $500 cz because the CZ shooter is good and the rifle holds him back and the vudoo shooter is terrible and can’t utilize the Vudoo.......it works itself out.

No dollar amounts, no parts lists. Nothing. Self correcting.

Good luck being good enough to sandbag an entire/matches to keep your scores low enough for a lower class, but high enough to win the class.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Require minimum production # made and sold prior to approval

They are for 2021. But the numbers are easily attainable for places like GAP and MPA.

 

[Pvt.Donut]

The main reason to have production class isn't to attract new shooters, it's to attract sponsorship dollars. Club matches attract new shooters.

 

[b6graham]

The main reason to have production class isn't to attract new shooters, it's to attract sponsorship dollars. Club matches attract new shooters.

shhhhhh

 

[samb300]

Don’t worry, production optics is now $2500

So, $2500 rifle

$2500 optic

$1k triple leg ckyepod

$1500 419 maverick

$400 spuhr


$7900 “production” rig. Sucks to be those guys.

You forgot your

$400 gamer plate and bag

$1500 RRS tripod

$4000 Swaro BTR

$75,000 Ford Raptor

 

[b6graham]

You forgot your

$400 gamer plate and bag

$1500 RRS tripod

$4000 Swaro BTR

$75,000 Ford Raptor

you forgot your
$500 pack
$100 ammo novel
$300 in weight kits
$5000 rangefinder

 

[ma smith]

base class in NRL22/NRL22x is ACTUALLY a limited/beginner class

If you ignore the bottomless pit of spending on acessories

edit: LMAO others beat me too it

 

[B-P-UU]

You forgot your

$400 gamer plate and bag

$1500 RRS tripod

$4000 Swaro BTR

$75,000 Ford Raptor

The Raptor is key.. love seeing them parked next to vans and Jetta's. The Raptor did a much better job of navigating the wet grass, I'm sure..

 

[samb300]

The "production" rules are (or WERE) so muddy, there is so much open for debate.

- No rules on availability, when do they have to be for sale to the public? Do they have to be "in stock" or is it a custom order? Do XXX number of them need to be in the hands of "production shooters" to qualify?

- How many does a company have to sell? Production ≠ custom made to order in low quantities, even if you only offer 3 calibers and one stock.

- Price limit is $2500. Does a company need to make a profit? What if my buddy builds me a $4500 rifle and sells it to me for $2500 and writes off the loss, is that a "production" rifle?

I've said it before, my AI is as much of or more of a production rifle than anything being shot in that class, other than the RPR. Better to call the class "budget" LOLOLOLOLOL rather than production.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[samb300]

The Raptor is key.. love seeing them parked next to vans and Jetta's. The Raptor did a much better job of navigating the wet grass, I'm sure..

Production class...gotta limit you to the new 2021 Ranger Raptor. Full size Raptor bumps you up to Open

 

[Dthomas3523]

I promise a guy running a $4500 stock AI-AT is at a much bigger disadvantage than an mpa or gap production rifle.

 

[Vaportrail22]

If neither rifle could have been bought and used by any other competitor shouldn’t both be disallowed?

 

[b6graham]

If neither rifle could have been bought and used by any other competitor shouldn’t both be disallowed?

don't be so logical.

one is a sponsor

 

[Mormegil87]

@samb300 is 100% right. An AI AT, AX and AXSR are all more production guns than the GAP PPR and PVA JH. The only reason that the dollar amount is $2500 is so that GAP, a major sponsor, could make a production gun to compete with the JH and the Rugers of the world while still meeting margins.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It looks like there was all of 8 shooters in Production Class. Surely is isn't difficult to pull them aside before the match and make sure everyone understands the rules and everything is legit. Have shooters work through a simple checklist. That's what the PRS should be doing as the owner of the Series / that's what your subscription should be paying for. Put one guy in charge to make it happen and square shit away before.

Yep. It’s extremely simple way to keep something so stupid from becoming a publicity nightmare. Yet it keeps happening.

Also, there’s only 8 because the mindset is “well shit, if I can/need to spend $5k on a rig to be competitive, I might as well buy exactly what I want and shoot open.”

Sponsor/money motivated disguised as “for the shooters.” Then when something like this happens to a division that shouldn’t matter, you have egg on your face.

 

[Lowlight]

Its money, plain and simple Doug brings it, Matt doesn't

Ruger has deep pockets and with a team including Doug there, they are probably investing it in comps, so the money, he isn't shooting a Ruger for free. Watch 2021 for the sponsorships to drop.

The comical part, when I got this message to me earlier before seeing the Matt post, I blindly asked if the winner was changed to the Daniel Defense shooter, I was that confident it was a company who ponies up real money, so I know Daniel Defense did, figured they needed a win for the Delta. I guess Ruger wanted it more, LOL.

the defenders never want to admit, this designed to funnel everything in one direction and one direction only. When the questions are asked, does this serve me or serve the shooters, it's always gonna be ME, that is how they want it. This was a bottom-line decision not a what's fair, how do we read the rules one. Rules are subjective in the PRS, they only serve the headmaster.

Ask Chad Dixon about this, one of the reasons there was an NRL initially. Happened very similar to him, he wasn't a favorite son, didn't back the right horse (at the time he backed Vibbert) and so every chance they got, they got taxed differently from others. It's designed to be flawed so it can be manipulated when necessary. Technicalities beget Technicalities,

 

[Rob01]

The main reason to have production class isn't to attract new shooters, it's to attract sponsorship dollars. Club matches attract new shooters.

I agree. That is the biggest "PRS has no clothes" statement around. Always touted as "getting new shooters" and it's the biggest BS. Always the argument for anyone saying anything against the PRS from 2012 to now. The sport was and is growing with or without PRS.

 

[Lowlight]

Growth is impacted,

The numbers are not what is claimed, especially when you can get someone to sign up but not shoot. There are enough people out there who will support you, so getting a couple hundred who don't shoot to pay a minor fee is easy, especially if they were prior students.

The growth is what we see on the streets, how the matches change, what investment is being put back into the product, this growth is stalled.

This was the scam that caused the last owner to fold up and give it away essentially. He was fooled by all the talk, bought the Series for 5x more money than it was worth, and then found out he bought an illusion. The non Functioning site and weak ass list of shooters, most of who won't shoot anyway. Why he gave it away, not worth the effort. The biggest growth is the sister series overseas, not in the US.

You have to invest in your company, you have to invest in what works, not just for your own range but for the series. Nascar invests in tracks they don't own too because it's about the product. Nascar manages the drivers, Nascar writes the rules and then enforces them across all, big teams don't get a pass because of their spending habits. They want the Product to be consistent and the product is the race. If a race at their track is awesome and they let the other tracks do whatever, the product will be different.

This is designed to compete with its self, Shannon wants the most matches, sponsors, and training possible at his range, the other ranges in the series are competing with him. In fact, they use it as a tactic, you dont' want to play by PRS rules, we'll put as many PRS matches on the same weekend we can to suppress your numbers. He is well known for his strong-arm tactics. In terms of business, it works by accident, if you want to call this working. No business that changes hands 5 times in as many years can be considered successful. It was musical chairs with a cost attached.

Competition Dynamics,
Riflemans Team Challenge
NRL
Border Wars
Unaffiliated Matches or local comps

There are other groups out there, ones where this kind of drama is few and far between.

 

[NiteQwill]

Maybe a way to solve this is to introduce a list of rifles approved in Production Class, updated every season. This is similar to what USPSA does in their Production class. Having said that, even an organization like USPSA is not without its drama. This story reads exactly like many USPSA/IDPA/IPSC podium changes in the past due to technicalities in the rules. At the end of the day, I don't mind paying membership fees to an organization that continues to promote the sport as a whole.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Maybe a way to solve this is to introduce a list of rifles approved in Production Class, updated every season. This is similar to what USPSA does in their Production class. Having said that, even an organization like USPSA is not without its drama. This story reads exactly like many USPSA/IDPA/IPSC podium changes in the past due to technicalities in the rules. At the end of the day, I don't mind paying membership fees to an organization that continues to promote the sport as a whole.

The way to solve it is burn it all down and start over. PRS strong arm and bullshit drama work because there is no competition.

Stronger competition will eventually rise. This shitshow that is current will either be burnt down or they will have to play ball instead of bullying MD’s and ranges.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

It would be easier for different organizations to grow if the PRS and NRL didnt play the same game of "if you hold their events, you can't hold ours." The scorched earth predicament is the problem.

 

[Rob01]

Maybe a way to solve this is to introduce a list of rifles approved in Production Class, updated every season. This is similar to what USPSA does in their Production class. Having said that, even an organization like USPSA is not without its drama. This story reads exactly like many USPSA/IDPA/IPSC podium changes in the past due to technicalities in the rules. At the end of the day, I don't mind paying membership fees to an organization that continues to promote the sport as a whole.

Then give your money up for a chance to shoot a finale and someone to keep track of your scores. I will keep mine in my pocket. LOL

 

[Dthomas3523]

It would be easier for different organizations to grow if the PRS and NRL didnt play the same game of "if you hold their events, you can't hold ours." The scorched earth predicament is the problem.

Only one side plays that game.

 

[Lowlight]

If he was smart,

he would do a reset, Covid is the perfect excuse, but they won't because in their mind it admits failure.

They know all this, they get it, but if you're signing up big sponsors, and your Gap Grind has 400+ people, they win. They don't see this the same as everyone else does because before they started addressing it, that morning they checked their bank account, PHAT, so why change.

A new series can fit right in, especially if it is mapped out ahead of time, but the issue is the match directors. You'd have to recruit a handful of locations, probably have to have some seed money to build them up too, but a different series could knock this out of the park.

Simplify it, spell it out, make great courses of fire, balance the costs for people, and build in room to grow, pretty easy model.

At the end of the day, people remember the experience more so than the journey. They will make the trip with you, especially if everyone is smiling when it's over. The world has changed, the sport has changed, the model has to change with it. People don't absorb things the same way.

When we started these matches social media was SH, you had forums and boards, no apps or phones. Now with Apps and phones things change. Information sharing changes, the matches have to change too.

 

[b6graham]

Only one side plays that game.

then shit talks the other on public media/podcasts for not wanting to coexist

i've dealt with it personally

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Only one side plays that game.

The PRS is def. the more egregious of the 2 on the matter but from what ive been told by a very prominent MD, the NRL has played that game too, to an extent. Maybe not. Either way, its a stupid problem.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The PRS is def. the more egregious of the 2 on the matter but from what ive been told by a very prominent MD, the NRL has played that game too, to an extent. Maybe not. Either way, its a stupid problem.

Agreed. PRS is definitely much more aggressive and I haven’t heard as much from nrl.

Regardless, if either organization attempts to tell ranges and MD’s how to run their business as well as stifling their business, while also claiming to be “for the shooters”.......

Fuck them. It’s unethical and flat out lies.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Let’s not mince words, if you ever insinuate or utter words that come close to it’s either my matches or their matches......while also only giving them one 2 day match a year when they could do two if they did both organizations.....

You are limiting a range and/or MD to hold matches, generate revenue, and hurting shooters opportunities.

That makes you a piece of shit. Whichever side or whoever does this.

 

[Rob01]

The funny part is some MDs think they wouldn't fill matches without the PRS/NRL. Yes some people who think they need points or finales might not come but there would still be plenty of shooters.

 

[NiteQwill]

Then give your money up for a chance to shoot a finale and someone to keep track of your scores. I will keep mine in my pocket. LOL

Do you honestly think PRS is the only organization that does this? Every major, organized shooting sport is in the same spot. Bad or good.

 

[Rob01]

Do you honestly think PRS is the only organization that does this? Every major, organized shooting sport is in the same spot. Bad or good.

The difference is some of those make you be a member to compete. Like USPSA. PRS doesn't so it's up to you to spend it or not.

 

[Lowlight]

We've all been there done that, got plenty of T-Shirts,

None of this really matters because it's not our show. We can say, like Jacob and I laugh about all the time, We handed them this on a silver platter, and all they do is fuck it up...

But if they are unwilling to address it, nothing will change. That unwillingness to be reflective of your product is a big part of the problem. When the person who was always considered the "Ambassador" to this sport, used to cross party lines all the time and people applauded him for it, @Rob01 says you have no clothes, you lost the race.

That range has so many resources, if someone had 1/3 the facility they could do to a ton. I would host a State of the Union, do a yearly AAR, lessons learned, and how they will change for 2021. If you showed a willingness to address these issues instead of working to suppress or cover them up, more people would respond.

Hey everybody welcome to a new year, last year we realized the following topics needed to be addressed as well as changed, so for 2021, we will change the following to X Y Z.

hell, even Nascar is doing that, shit changes yearly. Including mid-season, but here nothing changes mid-season it's not fair, we'll only reinterpret the rules so it fits our needs.

if the changes improve the product, who cares, the entire premise is to adapt to obstacles.

 

[NiteQwill]

The difference is some of those make you be a member to compete. Like USPSA. PRS doesn't so it's up to you to spend it or not.

USPSA doesn't require you to be a member to compete. Your classification is simply "U." I have shot both Area, State Championships, and National Matches and always encounter a few non-members. But I get what you're saying. At the end of the day, yes you do have a choice of putting your money where you want it. I guess I could spend more on other vices (overpriced primers?).

 

[Rob01]

Every USPSA match I have shot required you to be a member. They let new shooters shoot without it but you have to join later.

 

[NiteQwill]

Every USPSA match I have shot required you to be a member. They let new shooters shoot without it but you have to join later.

Are you shooting level 3 matches monthly? The only requirement for membership is for clarification, which gives you a spot for division or category finishes. Club matches do not require membership, and a requirement by the MD is on their own range terms, not USPSA.

 

[Rob01]

Shot local and area matches. Haven't shot one in about a year and a half so maybe it changed but they even said it at matches. New shooters can shoot one or two matches but then have to join.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Disclaimer--MATCH OUTSIDER.

Are you guys saying that a shooting organization can and has dictated to a privately owned range that they cannot hold another shooting organizations events??

We need every range in the USA holding as many events as possible in order to grow the shooting world as a whole rather than attempting to grow a singular crop.

What a range owner does with HIS facility should damn sure be open to whatever he wants to do with it. Why would any shooting organization think they actually control a range based off "allowing" that range to hold 1 or 2 of their sanctioned events?

Or I am completely missing something here?

Sincerely,
Theis