2021 Nightforce ELR Steel Challenge

[6.5SH]

Surprised there are no posts about this yet.

Bryan Litz won with a Barrett MRAD in .300 Norma.

Bryan Litz Wins 2021 Nightforce ELR Steel Challenge « Daily Bulletin

A major ELR match took place this past weekend in Wyoming, the Nightforce ELR Steel Challenge. A familiar name finished first -- Applied Ballistics founder Bryan Litz. Bryan had a convincing victory over some 220 other shooters.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

Good for Bryan!

I live about two hours south of the event location and hope to have the equipment to get in the game next year. This is two years in a row that the heat was brutal.

 

[M8541Reaper]

That’s awesome.

 

[northern50]

As always this was an awesome event to shoot. Scott and his crew runs an awesome match out there, can’t wait to go back next year.

 

[Carole Baskins]

I feel this year's competitors got ripped off. The wind didn't exceed 20 mph.

 

[Baron23]

That radar shown, used for personal drag tables, has to be what....$200k?

 

[brianf]

Since I’ve been on the solids kick lately, anyone there shoot solids or it’s a jacketed comp only

 

[6.5SH]

That radar shown, used for personal drag tables, has to be what....$200k?

No idea if was a guess, but $100,000 was stated in this article:

G1 BC vs G7 BC vs Bullet-Specific Drag Models

“In the past 4-5 years we’ve made quantum leaps when it comes to predicting bullet trajectories.” –...

precisionrifleblog.com

You can try contacting Infinition for a quote:

PRODUCTS - Infinition

www.infinition.com

Side note, LabRadar is their consumer product line.

 

[Baron23]

No idea if was a guess, but $100,000 was stated in this article:

G1 BC vs G7 BC vs Bullet-Specific Drag Models

“In the past 4-5 years we’ve made quantum leaps when it comes to predicting bullet trajectories.” –...

precisionrifleblog.com

You can try contacting Infinition for a quote:

PRODUCTS - Infinition

www.infinition.com

Side note, LabRadar is their consumer product line.

Hi thanks and yep...knew about LabRadar and Infinition. Looked around for prices on the Infinition gear but it seems like its quoted on a per customer basis. No list prices.

And no...I'm not going to bother them....I was just curious about price as what Lentz had in the pics doing drag tables looked like their BR-29015

 

[northern50]

Since I’ve been on the solids kick lately, anyone there shoot solids or it’s a jacketed comp only

Solid bullets are allowed at the match.

 

[Geno C.]

I know of at least 3 guys that were shooting Badlands solids there

 

[brianf]

I know of at least 3 guys that were shooting Badlands solids there

Leaving me hanging…how’s they do etc

 

[Geno C.]

I’ll figure out who the top finisher was shooting them. I know a friend of mine talked to him and said he didn’t have any trouble calling impacts. My friend is switching from atips to the solids now

 

[Geno C.]

Kendall was the top finisher using badlands solids

 

[Steel head]

Lol
John snow?

 

[Geno C.]

 

[babyguppy]

That radar shown, used for personal drag tables, has to be what....$200k?

damn, makes me want to enter, just so I can get ballistics on my load.

 

[James n TN]

Take away that multi million dollar ballistics lab Bryan showed up in, I wonder if he had won without it?
id be more interested in knowing what shooter was the closest without all the fancy gear just knowing his drop and loads?

 

[DR&M]

Take away that multi million dollar ballistics lab Bryan showed up in, I wonder if he had won without it?
id be more interested in knowing what shooter was the closest without all the fancy gear just knowing his drop and loads?

Every shooter got a chance to run their rifle through Applied Ballistics mobile lab. You'd fire 10 shots, they'd print out your information, then you got a chance to talk through the results with Bryan.

I had myself and 2 shooters I sponsored in this match. All 3 of us took advantage of this opportunity. All 3 of us ran the PDM's in the match. One of us took second place. I took 33nd.

The PDM's weren't a ton different than the data we showed up with, but it was convincing enough to run them in the match. They definitely helped.

But it's not really "that fancy" of gear anymore. It's just a Kestrel with Applied Ballistics. If you don't have one of those for this match I would have hard time believing a guy could finish top 100. It's just a basic piece of equipment you need to reliably hit targets at 1200 yards in the Wyoming wind.

Sure, the mobile lab has got a lot of toys in it, but if everyone had access to it then the playing field was definitely level.

The Applied Ballistics team is awesome. Bunch of really great people. It was the first chance I'd had to meet them. Bryan was incredibly nice. Going through 150+ shooters PDM's on the friday before the match is no easy task. We were one of the last groups through and the way were treated we might as well have been the first.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Kendall was the top finisher using badlands solidsView attachment 7651338

I shot a rimfire match w/ Jeff Odor today. He was the only one to beat me.

 

[Steel head]

What

Every shooter got a chance to run their rifle through Applied Ballistics mobile lab. You'd fire 10 shots, they'd print out your information, then you got a chance to talk through the results with Bryan.

I had myself and 2 shooters I sponsored in this match. All 3 of us took advantage of this opportunity. All 3 of us ran the PDM's in the match. One of us took second place. I took 33nd.

The PDM's weren't a ton different than the data we showed up with, but it was convincing enough to run them in the match. They definitely helped.

But it's not really "that fancy" of gear anymore. It's just a Kestrel with Applied Ballistics. If you don't have one of those for this match I would have hard time believing a guy could finish top 100. It's just a basic piece of equipment you need to reliably hit targets at 1200 yards in the Wyoming wind.

Sure, the mobile lab has got a lot of toys in it, but if everyone had access to it then the playing field was definitely level.

The Applied Ballistics team is awesome. Bunch of really great people. It was the first chance I'd had to meet them. Bryan was incredibly nice. Going through 150+ shooters PDM's on the friday before the match is no easy task. We were one of the last groups through and the way were treated we might as well have been the first.

I’ve had Some PDM’s that AB puts out work really well and others that were off.
I don’t think the ones that were troublesome were junk, just what they got with what they tested.

I am a believer in the PDM’s as long as it’s your barrel and combo.

 

[seansmd]

What

I’ve had Some PDM’s that AB puts out work really well and others that were off.
I don’t think the ones that were troublesome were junk, just what they got with what they tested.

I am a believer in the PDM’s as long as it’s your barrel and combo.

I think those are CDM for a bullet, personal drag models, are specific to your whole setup, and you shooting it.

 

[DR&M]

What

I’ve had Some PDM’s that AB puts out work really well and others that were off.
I don’t think the ones that were troublesome were junk, just what they got with what they tested.

I am a believer in the PDM’s as long as it’s your barrel and combo.

My apologies I wasn’t more clear.

Anybody attending the match could run their rifle through AB’s lab and generate their own Personal Drag Model (for free).

I, along with my 2 shooters, each ran our own rifles through the lab & generated our own PDM’s, then used them in the match.

So, it is Rifle/Load specific.

 

[Geno C.]

Every shooter got a chance to run their rifle through Applied Ballistics mobile lab. You'd fire 10 shots, they'd print out your information, then you got a chance to talk through the results with Bryan.

I had myself and 2 shooters I sponsored in this match. All 3 of us took advantage of this opportunity. All 3 of us ran the PDM's in the match. One of us took second place. I took 33nd.

The PDM's weren't a ton different than the data we showed up with, but it was convincing enough to run them in the match. They definitely helped.

But it's not really "that fancy" of gear anymore. It's just a Kestrel with Applied Ballistics. If you don't have one of those for this match I would have hard time believing a guy could finish top 100. It's just a basic piece of equipment you need to reliably hit targets at 1200 yards in the Wyoming wind.

Sure, the mobile lab has got a lot of toys in it, but if everyone had access to it then the playing field was definitely level.

The Applied Ballistics team is awesome. Bunch of really great people. It was the first chance I'd had to meet them. Bryan was incredibly nice. Going through 150+ shooters PDM's on the friday before the match is no easy task. We were one of the last groups through and the way were treated we might as well have been the first.

You don’t need a kestrel to hit past 1200

 

[Steel head]

My apologies I wasn’t more clear.

Anybody attending the match could run their rifle through AB’s lab and generate their own Personal Drag Model (for free).

I, along with my 2 shooters, each ran our own rifles through the lab & generated our own PDM’s, then used them in the match.

So, it is Rifle/Load specific.

I understood you perfectly
I was just making the point that a CDM for your particular rifle is certainly better than the generic CDM’s AB offers on a kestrel.

 

[archangel485]

Not all of us got to take advantage of the AB mobile lab, some of us showed up with a 4dof kestrel. Still worked fine but would have been interesting to see the difference. Maybe I'll end up getting an AB one eventually.

 

[DR&M]

Not all of us got to take advantage of the AB mobile lab, some of us showed up with a 4dof kestrel. Still worked fine but would have been interesting to see the difference. Maybe I'll end up getting an AB one eventually.

Even if you don't have a Kestrel with AB, run your rifle through the lab if you participate next year. The data is still of use. The Kestrel with AB just makes it more convenient.

 

[archangel485]

Even if you don't have a Kestrel with AB, run your rifle through the lab if you participate next year. The data is still of use. The Kestrel with AB just makes it more convenient.

Good advice, in hindsight I should have. Just curious how would you use it without the AB Kestrel? I should have spent a little time to talk to the AB folks about that I suppose.

 

[DR&M]

Good advice, in hindsight I should have. Just curious how would you use it without the AB Kestrel? I should have spent a little time to talk to the AB folks about that I suppose.

It gives you a personalized G7 BC for your rifle & a velocity among other things. So you’d just use those in whatever calculator or app you are running.

 

[archangel485]

It gives you a personalized G7 BC for your rifle & a velocity among other things. So you’d just use those in whatever calculator or app you are running.

Should have done it. Hopefully they'll offer it again next year. Thanks for the info.

 

[DR&M]

Should have done it. Hopefully they'll offer it again next year. Thanks for the info.

Here's a copy of one of our printouts we received from AB:

 

[Geno C.]

Here's a copy of one of our printouts we received from AB:

View attachment 7654046

2% variation?!

 

[DR&M]

2% variation?!

I know, huge. Bryan Litz told us we wanted less than 2% variation, or less than 1% with solid bullets. The other shooter in our group was shooting the same 245 gn EOL's and was at 1.9%. My 195 EOL's were 1.9%.

One thing about the way the lab is set up- you fire 10 consecutive shots, in really quick manner. As long as it takes the lab to track the bullet for 6-7K yards & reset. It's probably a little faster than the course of fire on each stage, but not by a ton but you do shoot more shots. So I was wondering how that might play a part in the results.

If you look at the G7 BC by shot number graph, shots 1-5 are really close. 6 is pretty wonky, 7 & 8 are really close again. If you were to toss out shot 6, the BC variation is probably really low. 9 & 10 start to fall off but could be included.

 

[SRPowah]

Take away that multi million dollar ballistics lab Bryan showed up in, I wonder if he had won without it?
id be more interested in knowing what shooter was the closest without all the fancy gear just knowing his drop and loads?

This is just ignorant. The only difference between the fancy gear and doing it the old fashioned way is how many shots it takes you to get reliable data. When it comes down to the comp itself, you still have to figure out the range, wind, and do your job on the trigger.

 

[Geno C.]

That’s the thing about testing, throwing out the fliers doesn’t show the whole picture. You need to see the outliers to know what the system can and can’t do

 

[THEIS]

As long as it takes the lab to track the bullet for 6-7K yards & reset.

Hi

6-7 thousand yards is what they are measuring?
The best infinition radar system is barely capable 1k.

Edited To Add:
Were you referring to them combining the acoustic systems with the Infinition system?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Geno C.]

Hi

6-7 thousand yards is what they are measuring?
The best infinition radar system is barely capable 1k.
View attachment 7654057

Edited To Add:
Were you referring to them combining the acoustic systems with the Infinition system?

Sincerely,
Theis

They couldn’t even get 1500 at Clark’s knob last year

 

[DR&M]

Hi

6-7 thousand yards is what they are measuring?
The best infinition radar system is barely capable 1k.
View attachment 7654057

Edited To Add:
Were you referring to them combining the acoustic systems with the Infinition system?

Sincerely,
Theis

I'm not an expert in this equipment. I made an assumption based on the live graph we'd watch as shots were fired- which appears incorrect.

 

[SIDS01]

I know, huge. Bryan Litz told us we wanted less than 2% variation, or less than 1% with solid bullets. The other shooter in our group was shooting the same 245 gn EOL's and was at 1.9%. My 195 EOL's were 1.9%.

If you look at the G7 BC by shot number graph, shots 1-5 are really close. 6 is pretty wonky, 7 & 8 are really close again. If you were to toss out shot 6, the BC variation is probably really low. 9 & 10 start to fall off but could be included.

Good job on that velocity spread.

Did you use the bullets as they came out of the box? Any culling, sorting, pointing, trimming,....

That 2% variation on the print out is the BC SD and not the ES. Back of the napkin, kinda, sorta, 1% BC variation has more or less the same impact on vertical spread at 2000 yards as 10 fps variation in velocity.

 

[babyguppy]

I was going to ask about shot #6.. looks like it's just an 'outlier'.
or you tossed in a different bullet

 

[DR&M]

Good job on that velocity spread.

Did you use the bullets as they came out of the box? Any culling, sorting, pointing, trimming,....

That 2% variation on the print out is the BC SD and not the ES. Back of the napkin, kinda, sorta, 1% BC variation has more or less the same impact on vertical spread at 2000 yards as 10 fps variation in velocity.

Thank you!

We ran them straight out of the box.

 

[DR&M]

I was going to ask about shot #6.. looks like it's just an 'outlier'.
or you tossed in a different bullet

I agree. It does not fit the rest of the data at all. Especially given the velocity is right in line with the rest. But to each his own.

 

[jbailey]

Hi

6-7 thousand yards is what they are measuring?
The best infinition radar system is barely capable 1k.

If you look at the picture of the AB Computer Monitor from the article, you will see the velocity plotted against time. The time series appears to be from 0.0 to about 1.9 seconds. That would give the range at somewhere in the 1200 to 1300 yd for a capable bullets pushed at 3000ish MV.
I'm not entirely sure that is the range its capable of measuring, but you are correct that 6 to 7k isn't likely.

 

[THEIS]

If you look at the picture of the AB Computer Monitor from the article, you will see the velocity plotted against time. The time series appears to be from 0.0 to about 1.9 seconds. That would give the range at somewhere in the 1200 to 1300 yd for a capable bullets pushed at 3000ish MV.
I'm not entirely sure that is the range its capable of measuring, but you are correct that 6 to 7k isn't likely.

Hi,

Yea, with a larger 30cal - 338cal that Infinition system "MIGHT" log 1300yd accurately.....

To do the 6-7k you will need something similar to this....Specifically the Weibel MFTR-2100/36-80

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[brianf]

If you look at the picture of the AB Computer Monitor from the article, you will see the velocity plotted against time. The time series appears to be from 0.0 to about 1.9 seconds. That would give the range at somewhere in the 1200 to 1300 yd for a capable bullets pushed at 3000ish MV.
I'm not entirely sure that is the range its capable of measuring, but you are correct that 6 to 7k isn't likely.

So next question(s),

Who used the AB Mobile lab and did they feel the new information was more accurate than their trued original “kestrel” which should be accurate from testing and shooting at home? (Brand new load, weapons don’t apply)

if the unit is good for 12-1400 and the KD was farther does anyone believe they got more hits than they would have at their home range?

(A new range with new wind will always create a more difficult environment so we should expect a lower hit percentage)

Do you think it’s a benefit to have them on site when you are at a new site because exterior ballistics change enough from home range to comp range?
Or
would it take you more than 10 rounds (the amount of rounds used at Mobile lab) using your original solver and dope to rectify?

thanks

 

[robb_va]

Here's a copy of one of our printouts we received from AB:

View attachment 7654046

What is going on between 2,000 FPS and 1,100 FPS? From the graph it looks like the variance is .400 to .450.

 

[tbeckstrand]

I used 4DOF on my phone and updated my environmentals every couple stages and I did ok at the match. I think 4DOF is more accurate and so much easier to use. I previously used AB for several years.

 

[Mk32784]

I asked Litz about how "far" the radar tracks. He told me on the smaller stuff it's around 1 -1.5 second of flight, and on the bigger stuff (375/416) it's a bit more due to having a large base to track onto. The software then uses this data to exprobrates the data for the curve as far as you want it to.

I shoot a 300PRC 245 EOL load over the radar and it was very close to the CDM I was using (and shot .8% bc consistency which was nice), within a tenth at a mile iirc. I used the PDM for the match and the dope wasn't the problem the weekend. Just the nut behind the gun as usual.

 

[archangel485]

I used 4DOF on my phone and updated my environmentals every couple stages and I did ok at the match. I think 4DOF is more accurate and so much easier to use. I previously used AB for several years.

Just alright eh? If I were a betting man I'd say you got 12th, and at this match that's a lot more than alright. Congrats, and good shooting! I know Cal Zant used 4DOF last year and got 4th, so that's a huge part of why I went with it. That and the fact that before I bought a Kestrel I was using 4DOF on my phone so seemed like a natural transition. My one gripe is their custom curves are fairly limited compared to AB. AB has way more bullets. I actually used the custom curve for 180VLDHs for my 180 Hybrids, worked pretty well. Anyways, I appreciate the info about your experiences since you've used both.

 

[brianf]

I asked Litz about how "far" the radar tracks. He told me on the smaller stuff it's around 1 -1.5 second of flight, and on the bigger stuff (375/416) it's a bit more due to having a large base to track onto. The software then uses this data to exprobrates the data for the curve as far as you want it to.

I shoot a 300PRC 245 EOL load over the radar and it was very close to the CDM I was using (and shot .8% bc consistency which was nice), within a tenth at a mile iirc. I used the PDM for the match and the dope wasn't the problem the weekend. Just the nut behind the gun as usual.

has anyone seen time of flight or distance in yards /meters the post-radar extrapolation program “runs out of gas”/more than .1-.2 off actual?