22 Creedmoor vs 224 Valkarie

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I didn't see a thread on this comparison.

I've found myself really enjoying the 22cal Rifles lately. I have 223 Rem & 223AI but I'm still looking to build up another.

It seems 224 Valkarie is the new thing right now but I'm still leaning towards the 22CM. I know the barrel life on the 22 CM isn't great, 1300 rounds is what I've been reading but it does get those 90gr projos moving pretty darn fast.

I intend to use it to punch paper primarily with some hinting critters here and there. No plans to shoot any comps with it just because I hear quick strings of fire are not advised.

So for those who have been down this road what way did you go and what was the determining factor for you?

 

[Codiekfx400]

I Would go 22 Creedmoor hands down. I can’t think of a single reason to buy a Valkyrie. The 223 that you already have will perform within 95% of the Valkyrie for a lot less money and headaches. If you want something in between the 223 and 22Creedmoor I would get a 22br. This is assuming we are talking bolt guns I would not attempt a 22 br semi auto rifle.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You haven't seen a comparison thread yet because there is no comparison. It's apples to oranges.
One is a high speed short action rifle cartridge, the other fits in an AR. Not enough similarities to put the two against each other.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I Would go 22 Creedmoor hands down. I can’t think of a single reason to buy a Valkyrie. The 223 that you already have will perform within 95% of the Valkyrie for a lot less money and headaches. If you want something in between the 223 and 22Creedmoor I would get a 22br. This is assuming we are talking bolt guns I would not attempt a 22 br semi auto rifle.

What other 22 cartridge has factory available ammo with 88 and 90gr?

That’s the reason to build a Valkyrie.

“A lot less money” is only a bolt/bolt head and a barrel.

 

[Mr Flannel]

You haven't seen a comparison thread yet because there is no comparison. It's apples to oranges.
One is a high speed short action rifle cartridge, the other fits in an AR. Not enough similarities to put the two against each other.

This ^^. Down here in ‘Straya, we aren’t allowed semi-auto long guns, so the fast 22s that get considered are those that are optimal for a short action bolt rifle. In this comparison, 22 creed is it. The Valkyrie won’t likely see much use without ARs to put them in.

In a side by side ballistic comparison, 22 creed also has it - but it’ll turn your barrel into a crispy critter a lot fast than the Valkyrie.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I didn't see a thread on this comparison.

I've found myself really enjoying the 22cal Rifles lately. I have 223 Rem & 223AI but I'm still looking to build up another.

It seems 224 Valkarie is the new thing right now but I'm still leaning towards the 22CM. I know the barrel life on the 22 CM isn't great, 1300 rounds is what I've been reading but it does get those 90gr projos moving pretty darn fast.

I intend to use it to punch paper primarily with some hinting critters here and there. No plans to shoot any comps with it just because I hear quick strings of fire are not advised.

So for those who have been down this road what way did you go and what was the determining factor for you?

I chose Valkyrie because I may or may not have time to load before a match. Also, the reported barrel life. I shoot 5-1500 rnds/mo and hopefully more in the future.

If I were going to build it strictly to blow animals up and not for a comp/practice build, I’d have gone 22 creed.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

https://www.primalrights.com/library/cartridge-guides/22-creedmoor

Better get a barrel nut I'll stick with the 22-250.

 

[Kevin.N]

https://www.primalrights.com/library/cartridge-guides/22-creedmoor

Better get a barrel nut I'll stick with the 22-250.

It is not actually that bad. I get 1400 to 1800 with my 22 Creed. It's my thrid barrel and I am more than happy with the wonder it can make. Just check what a 95 smk do a 3150( my match load)

 

[Codiekfx400]

What other 22 cartridge has factory available ammo with 88 and 90gr?

That’s the reason to build a Valkyrie.

“A lot less money” is only a bolt/bolt head and a barrel.

If your buying factory ammo you might as well get a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done with it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If your buying factory ammo you might as well get a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done with it.

.50/rnd practice ammo and .84/rnd for competition ammo for Valkyrie and 4k or more rounds in barrel.

No point to the 6.5 for practice and short matches.

Guys can argue all they want, when factory ammo and barrel life is considered, there isn’t anything in the Valkyrie niche at the moment with that bullet weight.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Okay so high volume shooting where the 223 factory offerings .4 ish bc is not enough. That’s where the Valkyrie makes sense. I understand that niche now that you brought it to my attention.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The OP has a 223AI and is considering a 22CM. I'd say he's handloading already so all this factory ammo talk might not mean anything.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The OP has a 223AI and is considering a 22CM. I'd say he's handloading already so all this factory ammo talk might not mean anything.

Agreed. If you’re loading, Valkyrie is kinda trivial.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Okay so high volume shooting where the 223 factory offerings .4 ish bc is not enough. That’s where the Valkyrie makes sense. I understand that niche now that you brought it to my attention.

Definitely a niche and narrow purpose, but it’s there. If reloading is main source off ammo, doesn’t make much sense though.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It is not actually that bad. I get 1400 to 1800 with my 22 Creed. It's my thrid barrel and I am more than happy with the wonder it can make. Just check what a 95 smk do a 3150( my match load)

What twist?

 

[RFutch]

Can a regular .223 (not AI) push the 90's fast enough to take advantage of the BC over 80 grain bullets?

 

[lash]

If your buying factory ammo you might as well get a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done with it.

6.5 Creedmoor will not fit in a small frame AR. It makes a bit of a difference. I like 6.5 Creed in its platform, but the Valkyrie is a great, fun cartridge for small frame AR that reaches out and hits things that the .223 typically cannot.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

You haven't seen a comparison thread yet because there is no comparison. It's apples to oranges.
One is a high speed short action rifle cartridge, the other fits in an AR. Not enough similarities to put the two against each other.

I figured that might be the case but wanted to ask anyway. Just hate to figure out I goofed after I spent the money.

I Would go 22 Creedmoor hands down. I can’t think of a single reason to buy a Valkyrie. The 223 that you already have will perform within 95% of the Valkyrie for a lot less money and headaches. If you want something in between the 223 and 22Creedmoor I would get a 22br. This is assuming we are talking bolt guns I would not attempt a 22 br semi auto rifle.

I hadn't considered 22 br but I'll take some time and read up on that.

You are correct, we are talking bolt gun.

https://www.primalrights.com/library/cartridge-guides/22-creedmoor

Better get a barrel nut I'll stick with the 22-250.

That's the article that had me thinking about 22 CM. I had considered 22-250 but they just don't take advantage of the higher BC projos. I supposed handloads negate that.

 

[Mr Flannel]

@RFutch You ‘might’ be able to but it would be on the outer margins. Quite a lot of research and effort has been put in by F/TR shooters testing the 90SMK out of 223s in 6.5” and 7” twist 30”+ barrels. Consensus seemed to be that fine accuracy was hard to achieve and things could turn surreal/rubbery at longer ranges. I seem to recall MVs being published as low as 2500-2600FPS, which was where the trouble lay for anything past 800yds, especially if it was windy. Some others could get them up to 2900FPS by having longer freebore and packing a Lapua case with a really hefty load of varget or similar, using a small magnum primer.

I used to shoot the 80s out of a 223 with 26.2gr of Varget using the same methodology, for about 3050FPS MV. You could give the 90s a crack but there are better 22 options out there for it.

 

[RFutch]

That's kind of what I figured. I have a 223 now that I am shooting 80's with. I am wanting a Valkyrie bolt gun to shoot the 90's without having to do a 223AI. Barrel life is also a big consideration for me so 22BR/CM is out. Factory ammo in a pinch is always nice too.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Is there a V caliber bolt rifle?

 

[Codiekfx400]

MPA makes one I believe

 

[sandwarrior]

Is there a V caliber bolt rifle?

Savage, and I believe now Howa. Remington has the action when based on the 6.8 SPC. Howa also has the mini actions. If looking for a Grendel based bolt CZ and Zastava (M85) have those actions based on the 7.62x39.

As to the original post, I agree with Tony, this is an apples to oranges comparison. The .22 Creed has to be done in a standard action, while the .224 Valkyrie can be put in a standard or mini, as well as fit in a standard AR platform. The whole thing is being able to reach a mile in a small platform, bolt or semi.

I will say, as mentioned above, the .22 Creed will eat the Valkryie's lunch in ballistics...right up until it eats the barrel first. This has the same capacity as the .220 Swift. Which, was a NOTORIOUS barrel eater. The .224 Val is about the perfect size for long range performance and not overboring the cartridge to the neck so you can get a lot more performance over time with it.

When I hear people talking about their third barrel, I'm thinking you simply have too much money to throw down the drain. If all you give a hoot about is winning, then go for it. Most of us want a barrel that's going to last us a long time. The Val. and .22GR/.22Rus are a step above the .223 and it's improved versions without burning barrels at a horrendous rate. With the added bonus you can put longer bullets in them and feed them from magazines.

 

[Lowlight]

Caliber matrix it, the Valkyrie is a better bang for your buck with a great potential and the best barrel life of anything out there that has any chance at competing

Barrel is expected around 6000 to 8000 rounds, Jim Gilliand is already beyond 5000+ still shooting 1/2 MOA.

We shot a bolt gun variant from MHSA using an Origin. Action and 26”. Barrel.

2880fps with 88s and 3120fps with 80s

What we saw with the cartridge is great results with no recoil, long barrel life, good velocity

The rest is empty speculation as we pushed it hard and far

 

[Lowlight]

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If you’ve already got 223 and 223AI bolt guns then Valkyrie isn’t going to give you anything you don’t already have.

If you want something to bridge the gap you might want to look into 22BR.

 

[Mormegil87]

The appeal of the 22 Creedmoor for me is being able to run it out of my AXMC. I can have 3-4 barrels spun up before I reach the cost of another gun. Ideally I'd like to run 90s or 95s out of a 20-22" barrel pushing 3k but I need to do some more research to see if it's possible. 18" would be even better but I might be dreaming there.

 

[Dthomas3523]

6.5 Creedmoor will not fit in a small frame AR. It makes a bit of a difference. I like 6.5 Creed in its platform, but the Valkyrie is a great, fun cartridge for small frame AR that reaches out and hits things that the .223 typically cannot.

Think we are talking bolt rifles only on this one.

 

[Bender]

Caliber matrix it, the Valkyrie is a better bang for your buck with a great potential and the best barrel life of anything out there that has any chance at competing

Barrel is expected around 6000 to 8000 rounds, Jim Gilliand is already beyond 5000+ still shooting 1/2 MOA.

We shot a bolt gun variant from MHSA using an Origin. Action and 26”. Barrel.

2880fps with 88s and 3120fps with 80s

What we saw with the cartridge is great results with no recoil, long barrel life, good velocity

The rest is empty speculation as we pushed it hard and far

That is impressive barrel life. This might be what I’m looking for in my next bolt gun.

 

[Bradu]

The 22 br makes more sense than the grendel or valkyrie. I know we will hear more on the barrel burning but it's all of what

If you’ve already got 223 and 223AI bolt guns then Valkyrie isn’t going to give you anything you don’t already have.

If you want something to bridge the gap you might want to look into 22BR.

The 22 br has my interest and have been thinking about trying it in my AIAE. I know I have to get the bolt bushed but it looks like a great caliber.

 

[Kevin.N]

What twist?

I run a gain twist 1-7 to 1-6.25

 

[Codiekfx400]

Looking at Sierra load data 80 grain bullet and Varget for a Valkyrie 22 br comparison. The 22 br at 28.3 gr of varget is 3000 FPS. The Valkyrie at 24.8 varget is 2800 FPS. Also note 22 br barrel length is 26” vs the Valkyrie at 24”.

 

[Kevin.N]

What I've always liked with my 22 creed is that I can run slow powder such H1000 and low nodes to preserve the troat and still get great speeds.

H4831SC /H1000/ RL23.

If I'd run a gas gun I'd probably run a 22 grendel wildcat.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Yeah, but how many rounds will the BR last on the barrel. The V appears to be approaching 308 barrel life. It is not acting like an overbore. Taking a parent cartridge that is between the 5.56 NATO and 7.62 Soviet and necking down to .224 was genius.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It is not acting like an overbore.

Because it’s not. Charge weights are very close to what you’d use in 223 with the same bullet, my experience has been that it’s less than you’d run in 223AI.

22BR runs 4-5gr more powder. You can expect to see some reduction in barrel life but it won’t be anywhere near as bad as the hot rods like 22 Creed, 22x47, 22-250, 22-250AI and so forth.

When it’s normal for a 6 Creed to cook a barrel in 1200-1500 rounds, no way in hell would I neck it down to the next smaller caliber and run it. I guess some guys just like keeping their gunsmiths family fed.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

So where does the 22 Nosler weigh in for this discussion?

Greg

 

[TonyTheTiger]

So where does the 22 Nosler weigh in for this discussion?

Greg

Apparently dead, probably killed by garbage brass.
Which is unfortunate because its probably a better fit in a bolt gun than 224V. Standard bolt face, a good bit more powder capacity and not restricted by AR mag lengths so you might be able to push the heavies noticeably faster.

 

[sandwarrior]

So where does the 22 Nosler weigh in for this discussion?

Greg

Basically the same case as the .224V, but not shortened 1mm in the neck (43mm to 42mm overall), with the rebated rim so as to take a standard bolt face (added: AND, stuff a really long bullet in it to fire from an AR).

I like the cartridge, but for various marketing reasons it failed. No. 1 reason is people who like to load hot smash rebated rims down and they won't fit in the shell holder. I suspect this is where the "garbage brass" thought comes in. It's not garbage brass. I did the same thing with Lapua 6-284 and 6.5-284. Both of which are rebated rims. Push a rebated rim above it's intended pressures and that's what happens. You open up primer pockets just as fast when overloading. I think reloaders in general seem to have to find this out for themselves. Quit trying for more power and just take advantage of the great bullets we have now.

No. 2 reason for marketing failure compared to the .224V is Noslers big thing was pushing a 55 gr. faster. In the end, so what? You can hit gophers/PD's as far out as the bullet remains stable with a .223. so why change? The .224V on the other hand set out from the get-go to make a super long range .224" cal bullet. They succeeded mightily in this endeavor. Not only is it VERY competitive at 1k it's consistent out to a mile. Nosler didn't even really set their .22 Nosler up to be successful at 1k.

That's why I think it's dead. It never got optimized to the buying market for what they want. The .224V did.

 

[Geno C.]

Looking at Sierra load data 80 grain bullet and Varget for a Valkyrie 22 br comparison. The 22 br at 28.3 gr of varget is 3000 FPS. The Valkyrie at 24.8 varget is 2800 FPS. Also note 22 br barrel length is 26” vs the Valkyrie at 24”.

I get over 2800 from my 223ai in a 20” barrel...

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I like the cartridge, but for various marketing reasons it failed. No. 1 reason is people who like to load hot smash rebated rims down and they won't fit in the shell holder. I suspect this is where the "garbage brass" thought comes in. It's not garbage brass.

Then why were people unable to load once fired brass from factory ammo? For the very brief period that 22N was a big deal there were tons of threads about brass being a one and done affair.

 

[Bradu]

I get over 2800 from my 223ai in a 20” barrel...

I'm at 2850 in a 16" 223 ai and an 80 grain amax.

 

[sandwarrior]

Then why were people unable to load once fired brass from factory ammo? For the very brief period that 22N was a big deal there were tons of threads about brass being a one and done affair.

I couldn't tell you. I know people who got some brass and reloaded it. They had the same problem as anyone with a rebated rim. There probably could be a bunch of bad brass out there.

FWIW, all Nosler brass in contracted. Norma who made a bunch of it in different calibers for them, was one of the main contractors. They are known for having soft case heads. The brass itself might be really good, just not hardened correctly.

If the Nosler brass was doing that, I would also have expected a recall.

Still though, I think the biggest fail was not to optimize for long range. Added: a prime example of a big company not in touch with their market. Kinda like Remington hanging on to the 1-12" twist in their .223's for 20 extra years.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Still though, I think the biggest fail was not to optimize for long range. Added: a prime example of a big company not in touch with their market. Kinda like Remington hanging on to the 1-12" twist in their .223's for 20 extra years.

Yeah the day it came out I was excited right up until I saw the case specs and realized it was no more optimized for heavy bullets in an AR than 223 is. But in a bolt gun...

 

[Deleted member 10043]

My definition of overbore is necked down from a parent cartridge. Since the V is actually the grandchild of the .30 Rem I would define it as overbore.

 

[sandwarrior]

Yeah the day it came out I was excited right up until I saw the case specs and realized it was no more optimized for heavy bullets in an AR than 223 is. But in a bolt gun...

...Cuz I wanna push 55's as hard as I can...NOT!

I'd have to go back and see what other people think of the cases. I do know I've had problems with both issues, rebated rim and Norma softness.

 

[Geno C.]

I don’t see the 224 getting any better barrel life than a regular 223. 22creed is not in the same league. Closer to my 22-250ai

 

[steve123]

With the little 22 centerfires some things will stretch out the velocities which we all want for long range. 1- using a longer freebore. 2- using a longer barrel, and of course finding the best powder and brass.

My 223AI gets 2813 fps with a low pressure load using 88's in a 28" barrel, but the OACL is 2.614. Too my knowledge there's no mags available for 223 with long enough internal latitude to work for that long of a OACL. Of course forming is a extra step so that's a downside. I can get 2900 fps + in the high node though with 26 grains of Varget. My current load does surprisingly well at 1000Y.

BTW my 223AI load above totally crushes a load I tried yesterday at longer distances in 6mmBR, which is a 90gr TGK/.49BC at 3045fps! by 933Y the 6br load was faltering. That .545BC the 88's have makes a huge difference farther out!

If I were to guess, those loading for a bolt rifle with 224V are already loading longer, etc, so velocities are up around 2900 fps with heavies.

22BR, it's no problem getting 3000 fps with heavies, but as I'm now learning with 6br, feeding and ejection problems can be a hassle, tuning mags and extractor are next on my list of things to do, oh joy...

 

[Geno C.]

With the little 22 centerfires some things will stretch out the velocities which we all want for long range. 1- using a longer freebore. 2- using a longer barrel, and of course finding the best powder and brass.

My 223AI gets 2813 fps with a low pressure load using 88's in a 28" barrel, but the OACL is 2.614. Too my knowledge there's no mags available for 223 with long enough internal latitude to work for that long of a OACL. Of course forming is a extra step so that's a downside. I can get 2900 fps + in the high node though with 26 grains of Varget. My current load does surprisingly well at 1000Y.

BTW my 223AI load above totally crushes a load I tried yesterday at longer distances in 6mmBR, which is a 90gr TGK/.49BC at 3045fps! by 933Y the 6br load was faltering. That .545BC the 88's have makes a huge difference farther out!

If I were to guess, those loading for a bolt rifle with 224V are already loading longer, etc, so velocities are up around 2900 fps with heavies.

22BR, it's no problem getting 3000 fps with heavies, but as I'm now learning with 6br, feeding and ejection problems can be a hassle, tuning mags and extractor are next on my list of things to do, oh joy...

Stepping up to a dasher or brx will make the feeding an ejection a little easier to work with

 

[sandwarrior]

Stepping up to a dasher or brx will make the feeding an ejection a little easier to work with

I know this thread is in bolt guns, but BR's/BRX's don't last long in the -15 platform. The duality of the cartridge is why I say it. A BR will beat a .224V otherwise.

Also, FWIW, I was getting 36 gr. out of my 6.8 SPC necked down to 6mm. I can't see total capacity of the .224V case only being .32 gr. The body is just way bigger.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

So where does the 22 Nosler weigh in for this discussion?

Greg

22 Nosler is like the weird transgender cousin that hates their family and their family dislikes them, but they show up for family events anyway with green hair and one side of their head shaved.

Best to just quietly ignore it until it goes away.