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F T/R Competition .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
- Thread starter THT-9
- Start date
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Laurie Holland has written some excellent articles on his results with the 223.
Laurie Holland has written some excellent articles on his results with the 223.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
There are some who use the 223, I seem to recall that a record was set with one over in England recently but I have not met anyone using one.
There are some who use the 223, I seem to recall that a record was set with one over in England recently but I have not met anyone using one.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
In a long barreled bolt gun (like the one shown above), 223 is very competitive with 308 out to 600 yards. At 800, 900, 1000, the 308 has an edge over the 223. On a very windy day at 600 yards, the 308 has a small edge over the 223. I enjoy shooting my ARs in F-class but found myself wanting a 30" barrel and a bolt action to be more competitive. I just received an extra bolt in 223 and a 32" krieger barrel just for mid-range F-TR. 223 is really fun to shoot. I'll stick with my 308 beyond 600 yards.
In a long barreled bolt gun (like the one shown above), 223 is very competitive with 308 out to 600 yards. At 800, 900, 1000, the 308 has an edge over the 223. On a very windy day at 600 yards, the 308 has a small edge over the 223. I enjoy shooting my ARs in F-class but found myself wanting a 30" barrel and a bolt action to be more competitive. I just received an extra bolt in 223 and a 32" krieger barrel just for mid-range F-TR. 223 is really fun to shoot. I'll stick with my 308 beyond 600 yards.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Nice rifle - is that what they call a "tube gun"?
From what I've read so far the .223 can compete - I wonder what the pro's and con's are - the .308 with 185 to 210 Bergers would be more up my alley, but the .223 makes me curious.
I have an M4 (a true M4 14" barrel, 1-7 twist, chrome lined military barrel) that I can hit a 24" x 18" at 500 yards consistantly with regular M16 open sites and 62gr FMJ's. I know it can be done, but it seems the environmentals would effect it more than the .308....
Nice rifle - is that what they call a "tube gun"?
From what I've read so far the .223 can compete - I wonder what the pro's and con's are - the .308 with 185 to 210 Bergers would be more up my alley, but the .223 makes me curious.
I have an M4 (a true M4 14" barrel, 1-7 twist, chrome lined military barrel) that I can hit a 24" x 18" at 500 yards consistantly with regular M16 open sites and 62gr FMJ's. I know it can be done, but it seems the environmentals would effect it more than the .308....
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a long barreled bolt gun (like the one shown above), 223 is very competitive with 308 out to 600 yards. At 800, 900, 1000, the 308 has an edge over the 223. On a very windy day at 600 yards, the 308 has a small edge over the 223. I enjoy shooting my ARs in F-class but found myself wanting a 30" barrel and a bolt action to be more competitive. I just received an extra bolt in 223 and a 32" krieger barrel just for mid-range F-TR. 223 is really fun to shoot. I'll stick with my 308 beyond 600 yards.</div></div>
32" barrel for a .223?! Wouldn't the bullet slow down in the barrel before it exited because of powder burn off?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a long barreled bolt gun (like the one shown above), 223 is very competitive with 308 out to 600 yards. At 800, 900, 1000, the 308 has an edge over the 223. On a very windy day at 600 yards, the 308 has a small edge over the 223. I enjoy shooting my ARs in F-class but found myself wanting a 30" barrel and a bolt action to be more competitive. I just received an extra bolt in 223 and a 32" krieger barrel just for mid-range F-TR. 223 is really fun to shoot. I'll stick with my 308 beyond 600 yards.</div></div>
32" barrel for a .223?! Wouldn't the bullet slow down in the barrel before it exited because of powder burn off?
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
eliseo RTS tube gun chassis
It's fun inside 600. It's more like work any further, but that's me.
I had the 6.5 twist krieger cut for Berger 90 VLDs with a 1k yd fantasy in my head. Turns out I can't get then to moove fast enough.
It likes the 75 A-maxs at 3150
I may bump it out to ackley later just to show the 90s who's boss.
eliseo RTS tube gun chassis
It's fun inside 600. It's more like work any further, but that's me.
I had the 6.5 twist krieger cut for Berger 90 VLDs with a 1k yd fantasy in my head. Turns out I can't get then to moove fast enough.
It likes the 75 A-maxs at 3150
I may bump it out to ackley later just to show the 90s who's boss.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
It's certainly *possible* to shoot a .223 competitively at 1000, as has been mentioned, Laurie Holland out of the UK is an excellent example. He is very competitive running 90 grain Bergers, even out to 1200+ yards.
That said, it is VASTLY easier to get a .308 load that works at 1000 than a .223 one. A chimpanzee can make a good competitive 1000 yard load with some combination of a 155 grain bullet, Varget, and either Winchester or Lapua cases. Unless you are a master reloader with a custom .223 chamber, a .308 will most likely run rings around the .223 at 1000.
Jerry Tierney (who I would consider in the master class of reloading) reportedly went through multiple barrels getting the 90 grain .223 bullets to perform.
From 600 meters and in, the .223 is VERY competitive with the .308.
Hope this helps,
Darrell
It's certainly *possible* to shoot a .223 competitively at 1000, as has been mentioned, Laurie Holland out of the UK is an excellent example. He is very competitive running 90 grain Bergers, even out to 1200+ yards.
That said, it is VASTLY easier to get a .308 load that works at 1000 than a .223 one. A chimpanzee can make a good competitive 1000 yard load with some combination of a 155 grain bullet, Varget, and either Winchester or Lapua cases. Unless you are a master reloader with a custom .223 chamber, a .308 will most likely run rings around the .223 at 1000.
Jerry Tierney (who I would consider in the master class of reloading) reportedly went through multiple barrels getting the 90 grain .223 bullets to perform.
From 600 meters and in, the .223 is VERY competitive with the .308.
Hope this helps,
Darrell
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Thanks for the info - I'm really interested in shooting the 1k, and I'm always up for a challenge. I'm going to call Berger tomorrow and see what they reccomend for barrel twist for their 90's and 80's. I'm very familiar with hand loading so I think I can work this out, the 30"-32" barrel length has got me thinking. Obviously a slower powber would be in order, but how much slower - 4350 slow or 7828 slow? I shoot 7828 in my 30" barreled 300 RUM, and it burns most of the powder. I wonder....
Thanks for the info - I'm really interested in shooting the 1k, and I'm always up for a challenge. I'm going to call Berger tomorrow and see what they reccomend for barrel twist for their 90's and 80's. I'm very familiar with hand loading so I think I can work this out, the 30"-32" barrel length has got me thinking. Obviously a slower powber would be in order, but how much slower - 4350 slow or 7828 slow? I shoot 7828 in my 30" barreled 300 RUM, and it burns most of the powder. I wonder....
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
2010 @ the BCRA Int'l Rifle Championships (4 days of 300, 400, 500 & 600 metes) 1st F/TR was running a stock Savage 12 F/TR 30" 1-7" tw, B82BTs over N150, Lapua cases, Rem 7-1/2 primers at a MV of about 2850fps. 2nd F/TR was running S80MKs at a similar speed.
When people say slower powders for a .223 Rem, they are usually talking RE-15, N150, N540, N550. I've heard *rumors* of one person running RE-17 - maybe. This is considered 'slow' in comparison to stuff like BLC2, H4895, Varget (depending on lot), N135, TAC, etc. Not much of a spread, but then its a pretty dinky cartridge...
One of the tricky parts is getting a long throated chamber to allow you to seat the bullets waaay out there. Sadly the gun I have has more of a gas-gun (Wylde) chamber - a good compromise for say, NRA High Power XTC where you may alternate mag-fed on one stage for Rapids and single load on another for Slow-fire Prone. Not so good for a single-load only bolt gun - the long 80+ and 90gn bullets end up seated too deep in the case.
2010 @ the BCRA Int'l Rifle Championships (4 days of 300, 400, 500 & 600 metes) 1st F/TR was running a stock Savage 12 F/TR 30" 1-7" tw, B82BTs over N150, Lapua cases, Rem 7-1/2 primers at a MV of about 2850fps. 2nd F/TR was running S80MKs at a similar speed.
When people say slower powders for a .223 Rem, they are usually talking RE-15, N150, N540, N550. I've heard *rumors* of one person running RE-17 - maybe. This is considered 'slow' in comparison to stuff like BLC2, H4895, Varget (depending on lot), N135, TAC, etc. Not much of a spread, but then its a pretty dinky cartridge...
One of the tricky parts is getting a long throated chamber to allow you to seat the bullets waaay out there. Sadly the gun I have has more of a gas-gun (Wylde) chamber - a good compromise for say, NRA High Power XTC where you may alternate mag-fed on one stage for Rapids and single load on another for Slow-fire Prone. Not so good for a single-load only bolt gun - the long 80+ and 90gn bullets end up seated too deep in the case.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2010 @ the BCRA Int'l Rifle Championships (4 days of 300, 400, 500 & 600 metes) 1st F/TR was running a stock Savage 12 F/TR 30" 1-7" tw, B82BTs over N150, Lapua cases, Rem 7-1/2 primers at a MV of about 2850fps. 2nd F/TR was running S80MKs at a similar speed.
When people say slower powders for a .223 Rem, they are usually talking RE-15, N150, N540, N550. I've heard *rumors* of one person running RE-17 - maybe. This is considered 'slow' in comparison to stuff like BLC2, H4895, Varget (depending on lot), N135, TAC, etc. Not much of a spread, but then its a pretty dinky cartridge...
One of the tricky parts is getting a long throated chamber to allow you to seat the bullets waaay out there. Sadly the gun I have has more of a gas-gun (Wylde) chamber - a good compromise for say, NRA High Power XTC where you may alternate mag-fed on one stage for Rapids and single load on another for Slow-fire Prone. Not so good for a single-load only bolt gun - the long 80+ and 90gn bullets end up seated too deep in the case. </div></div>
N150 is around 4350 burn rate - that's slower than most would ever run (in a normal situation). I'm going to have to look at my .223 reamer tomorrow and measure the throat on it. On my 300 RUM I ran the standard reamer in and then a throating reamer in a little further (I forget the exact numbers) so I could fit the longer Bergers - My load for that gun is 15 of the lands and fits in the magazine box (extended). I should be able to do the same thing for the 223.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2010 @ the BCRA Int'l Rifle Championships (4 days of 300, 400, 500 & 600 metes) 1st F/TR was running a stock Savage 12 F/TR 30" 1-7" tw, B82BTs over N150, Lapua cases, Rem 7-1/2 primers at a MV of about 2850fps. 2nd F/TR was running S80MKs at a similar speed.
When people say slower powders for a .223 Rem, they are usually talking RE-15, N150, N540, N550. I've heard *rumors* of one person running RE-17 - maybe. This is considered 'slow' in comparison to stuff like BLC2, H4895, Varget (depending on lot), N135, TAC, etc. Not much of a spread, but then its a pretty dinky cartridge...
One of the tricky parts is getting a long throated chamber to allow you to seat the bullets waaay out there. Sadly the gun I have has more of a gas-gun (Wylde) chamber - a good compromise for say, NRA High Power XTC where you may alternate mag-fed on one stage for Rapids and single load on another for Slow-fire Prone. Not so good for a single-load only bolt gun - the long 80+ and 90gn bullets end up seated too deep in the case. </div></div>
N150 is around 4350 burn rate - that's slower than most would ever run (in a normal situation). I'm going to have to look at my .223 reamer tomorrow and measure the throat on it. On my 300 RUM I ran the standard reamer in and then a throating reamer in a little further (I forget the exact numbers) so I could fit the longer Bergers - My load for that gun is 15 of the lands and fits in the magazine box (extended). I should be able to do the same thing for the 223.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Lots of great shooters have tried the 90 grain bullets and very few shoot them. That should tell you something. What I've been told is the 223 case just doesn't have enough capacity to push the 90 gr bullets fast enough to be better than the 80 gr bullets. 80 grain is the sweet spot for 223 and 600 yards or less is the sweet spot. Go outside these boundaries if you like pain and suffering.
Lots of great shooters have tried the 90 grain bullets and very few shoot them. That should tell you something. What I've been told is the 223 case just doesn't have enough capacity to push the 90 gr bullets fast enough to be better than the 80 gr bullets. 80 grain is the sweet spot for 223 and 600 yards or less is the sweet spot. Go outside these boundaries if you like pain and suffering.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THT-9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">N150 is around 4350 burn rate - that's slower than most would ever run (in a normal situation).</div></div>
According to the burn rate charts, yes. In reality... not so much. I started using N150 on the recommendation of several Canadian TR and F-Class shooters. They use it in .223 Rem (80-90gn bullets), .308 Win (155gn bullets) and 6mm BR/ Dasher (105-107gn bullets). I've used about 30lbs of the stuff over the last couple years starting when Varget became unobtainium after Obama got elected. For the most part, I've ended up using a similar amount (some times literally the same charge weight) as I did with Varget. Yes I know even Vihtavouri's charts put N150 right between H414/W760/H4350, and Varget more up in the N135-N140 range... but all I can say is that it works like Varget, or maybe RE-15, for me in a .223 Rem or .308 Win.
A word of caution about N550, if you haven't messed with that stuff before... watch the temperature changes. Double-based powder, *very* touchy about heat. You can go from shooting 'eh' to shooting great to blowing up bullets in fairly short order - especially with the fast twist required to spin the heavy .224 cal bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THT-9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">N150 is around 4350 burn rate - that's slower than most would ever run (in a normal situation).</div></div>
According to the burn rate charts, yes. In reality... not so much. I started using N150 on the recommendation of several Canadian TR and F-Class shooters. They use it in .223 Rem (80-90gn bullets), .308 Win (155gn bullets) and 6mm BR/ Dasher (105-107gn bullets). I've used about 30lbs of the stuff over the last couple years starting when Varget became unobtainium after Obama got elected. For the most part, I've ended up using a similar amount (some times literally the same charge weight) as I did with Varget. Yes I know even Vihtavouri's charts put N150 right between H414/W760/H4350, and Varget more up in the N135-N140 range... but all I can say is that it works like Varget, or maybe RE-15, for me in a .223 Rem or .308 Win.
A word of caution about N550, if you haven't messed with that stuff before... watch the temperature changes. Double-based powder, *very* touchy about heat. You can go from shooting 'eh' to shooting great to blowing up bullets in fairly short order - especially with the fast twist required to spin the heavy .224 cal bullets.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
I will give this one caveat. There are several 223 shooters up here that are competitive against the 308 at all distances. The 90gn pills have a higher BC and are more efficient recoil wise; you can really lock down your aiming and shooting. These guns barely move when shot. On a good day you can see your trace there is that little recoil.
Here is the caveat I have not been to a match yet where someone’s target hasn’t come up blank during the string (not at the start)because the target pullers could not find the bullet hole. It seems time after time these small bullets get lost in the noise of the bigger 308s. I am not sure if it has to do with the lack of splash on the back stop or the lack of noise in addition to the small diameter .223 caliber hole. But more times then I care to count we have seen or been apart of relays where the individual has called down after their target has come up a miss. And a good percentage when rechecked still show as miss only to be followed up by the next shot with nothing changed on the scope to be scored a V (an X for you).
Something to think about
Trevor
I will give this one caveat. There are several 223 shooters up here that are competitive against the 308 at all distances. The 90gn pills have a higher BC and are more efficient recoil wise; you can really lock down your aiming and shooting. These guns barely move when shot. On a good day you can see your trace there is that little recoil.
Here is the caveat I have not been to a match yet where someone’s target hasn’t come up blank during the string (not at the start)because the target pullers could not find the bullet hole. It seems time after time these small bullets get lost in the noise of the bigger 308s. I am not sure if it has to do with the lack of splash on the back stop or the lack of noise in addition to the small diameter .223 caliber hole. But more times then I care to count we have seen or been apart of relays where the individual has called down after their target has come up a miss. And a good percentage when rechecked still show as miss only to be followed up by the next shot with nothing changed on the scope to be scored a V (an X for you).
Something to think about
Trevor
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
I'm no where near the shooter Laurie or others may be but I have been down the road with the .223 in F/TR and 90 grain VLD's. As Darrell said, if you are not a master reloader, and I'm not, the .223 with 90's can be a nightmare. I have shot some excellent scores at 600 with the 90's but I have found it to be FAR more finicky about any changes in the loading procedures than .308. I never tried to run them fast at 600 and my best loads with a stock Savage LRVP were using 8208 XBR at about 2560 fps.
Having said all that, you often hear top notch shooters say "...the .223 can be very competitive with the .308..." but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that it is better at any distance.
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the reigning National F-class champion, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris
I'm no where near the shooter Laurie or others may be but I have been down the road with the .223 in F/TR and 90 grain VLD's. As Darrell said, if you are not a master reloader, and I'm not, the .223 with 90's can be a nightmare. I have shot some excellent scores at 600 with the 90's but I have found it to be FAR more finicky about any changes in the loading procedures than .308. I never tried to run them fast at 600 and my best loads with a stock Savage LRVP were using 8208 XBR at about 2560 fps.
Having said all that, you often hear top notch shooters say "...the .223 can be very competitive with the .308..." but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that it is better at any distance.
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the reigning National F-class champion, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nora23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the <span style="font-weight: bold">reigning National F-class champion</span>, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris </div></div>
The driver is more important than the gun. With that in mind I'll take all the advantages I can legally get.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nora23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the <span style="font-weight: bold">reigning National F-class champion</span>, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris </div></div>
The driver is more important than the gun. With that in mind I'll take all the advantages I can legally get.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nora23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the <span style="font-weight: bold">reigning National F-class champion</span>, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris </div></div>
The driver is more important than the gun. With that in mind I'll take all the advantages I can legally get. </div></div>
Very true! If it is Jim Murphy with a lever action against most, my money would be on Jim! LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nora23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At the recent Tennessee State Championships the <span style="font-weight: bold">reigning National F-class champion</span>, Jim Murphy, shot in F/TR with a .223 and did very well.
Chris </div></div>
The driver is more important than the gun. With that in mind I'll take all the advantages I can legally get. </div></div>
Very true! If it is Jim Murphy with a lever action against most, my money would be on Jim! LOL
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">N150 seems to be a favorite with the .223 F T/R shooters. Not having seen it before, what kind of powder is it, round, flake, cylinder? </div></div>
short/medium extruded like Varget. There can be some notable variations from kernel to kernel in size/weight - one might be tiny/short but weigh 2-3x what a kernel 4x as long does. More apparent (and aggravating) when using a lab scale that really shows these differences.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">N150 seems to be a favorite with the .223 F T/R shooters. Not having seen it before, what kind of powder is it, round, flake, cylinder? </div></div>
short/medium extruded like Varget. There can be some notable variations from kernel to kernel in size/weight - one might be tiny/short but weigh 2-3x what a kernel 4x as long does. More apparent (and aggravating) when using a lab scale that really shows these differences.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
I have not seen N150 very much. N140 is the most common: very similar to Varget.
I have not seen N150 very much. N140 is the most common: very similar to Varget.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
i'm new to f class shooting only shot in 2 matches this year i used both my 223 and my 308 in f t/r and in open class i shot better with the 223 (374 8x and 377 8 x) could have done better but made dumb mistakes .this year i have rebarreled my 223 with a mcgowen 1-8 twist and the 308 with a shilen match 1-10 twist can already see better grouping @ 300 yds (300 is as far as we can shoot).hoping to place better this coming season and be able to shoot at other places and distances.
i'm new to f class shooting only shot in 2 matches this year i used both my 223 and my 308 in f t/r and in open class i shot better with the 223 (374 8x and 377 8 x) could have done better but made dumb mistakes .this year i have rebarreled my 223 with a mcgowen 1-8 twist and the 308 with a shilen match 1-10 twist can already see better grouping @ 300 yds (300 is as far as we can shoot).hoping to place better this coming season and be able to shoot at other places and distances.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
I bought 3 Savage comp rifles last year .2 f/tr one in 223 and one in 308. I also bought a 12f in 6br. The only one that doesnt have its barrel off waiting for new barrel is my 223 f/tr. It shot better then my 6br.
I bought 3 Savage comp rifles last year .2 f/tr one in 223 and one in 308. I also bought a 12f in 6br. The only one that doesnt have its barrel off waiting for new barrel is my 223 f/tr. It shot better then my 6br.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
If have seen plenty of good scores out of .223. You may want to stick with a the heaviest bullet you can shoot
If have seen plenty of good scores out of .223. You may want to stick with a the heaviest bullet you can shoot
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
I shoot a 223 in F/TR. (bolt gun) I am competitive against 308s in calm conditions but fade to the bottom of the squad when it blows. Don't care because it's more fun to shoot
I shoot a 223 in F/TR. (bolt gun) I am competitive against 308s in calm conditions but fade to the bottom of the squad when it blows. Don't care because it's more fun to shoot
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a 223 in F/TR. (bolt gun) I am competitive against 308s in calm conditions but fade to the bottom of the squad when it blows. Don't care because it's more fun to shoot </div></div>
As you learn to read the wind better, this will change. Although I usually have to make larger changes to accommodate the wind than the .308's, I still usually finish in the top 3.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a 223 in F/TR. (bolt gun) I am competitive against 308s in calm conditions but fade to the bottom of the squad when it blows. Don't care because it's more fun to shoot </div></div>
As you learn to read the wind better, this will change. Although I usually have to make larger changes to accommodate the wind than the .308's, I still usually finish in the top 3.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Due to recoil sensitivity on my part, I,m keen on trying a 223. Does anyone know if Berger will be bringing out a Hybrid 80-90gn bullet? Others mentioned N550 is very temperature sensitive, is N540 and RE17 sensitive as well?
Due to recoil sensitivity on my part, I,m keen on trying a 223. Does anyone know if Berger will be bringing out a Hybrid 80-90gn bullet? Others mentioned N550 is very temperature sensitive, is N540 and RE17 sensitive as well?
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
At 600 or less I feel like I can compete with any 308 at my local range with my savage 223 f/tr 30" unless Lane B or Jerry T are shooting f/tr
At 600 or less I feel like I can compete with any 308 at my local range with my savage 223 f/tr 30" unless Lane B or Jerry T are shooting f/tr
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
Hey Folks... new to this forum, but not new to the 90gr .223 VLD in F Class. I use it in a Savage platform with a 28 inch Shilen Select Match barrel. I get 3050 fps and can hold a 2 1/2 10 shot group at 500 yards. Many .308's have fallen and will continue to fall to this setup. But, my signature statement holds true.....
KS
Hey Folks... new to this forum, but not new to the 90gr .223 VLD in F Class. I use it in a Savage platform with a 28 inch Shilen Select Match barrel. I get 3050 fps and can hold a 2 1/2 10 shot group at 500 yards. Many .308's have fallen and will continue to fall to this setup. But, my signature statement holds true.....
KS
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
As of right now, my testing with the 90's has been good, Rock Creek 7.2 twist 30" long. 24.5 grs of Varget, muzzle is 2850. First time out with at 1K, after getting it zeroed, elevation report from the pits.. 4".
As of right now, my testing with the 90's has been good, Rock Creek 7.2 twist 30" long. 24.5 grs of Varget, muzzle is 2850. First time out with at 1K, after getting it zeroed, elevation report from the pits.. 4".
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
For me, the 80.5 berger and the 82 berger work very well in a bolt gun and a spacegun out to 600 yds. At Capitan, NM, one of the ranges I shoot, the wind is always blowing, so you learn to use wind flage. There was a big to-do awhile back about 90gr bergers and a 6.5 twist barrel being the cat's meow. Long 90gr bullets do not usually do very well in 7.7 or 8 twist barrels. I don't think many people use a 90gr anymore. We have some world class high-power shooters there, and they could probably clean almost all targets with about anything. Now 1000 yds may be the difference. A 223 versus a 185 or 210 might be a contest. Just my opinion
For me, the 80.5 berger and the 82 berger work very well in a bolt gun and a spacegun out to 600 yds. At Capitan, NM, one of the ranges I shoot, the wind is always blowing, so you learn to use wind flage. There was a big to-do awhile back about 90gr bergers and a 6.5 twist barrel being the cat's meow. Long 90gr bullets do not usually do very well in 7.7 or 8 twist barrels. I don't think many people use a 90gr anymore. We have some world class high-power shooters there, and they could probably clean almost all targets with about anything. Now 1000 yds may be the difference. A 223 versus a 185 or 210 might be a contest. Just my opinion
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
The 90's and the 6.5 teist had to do with sevice rifles and the Sierra 90 gr pills. That bullet is a long one. The problem with it is as Sierra has stated in the past, the bullet is not designed to pushed faster than 2650. But on the other hand, the Berger 90 is a different horse. We have found that a 7 or 7.2 twist to be very optimum for that bullet, as long as the barrel is throated correctly for it. My barrel is using a Wylde chamber throaded for the Berger bullet, whereby the bullet will be out the danger area of donunts. It is about ten thou into the lands. Laurie Holland has done a lot of research with the Berger 9p's as well as Jerry Tiernery (spelling?). In fact it was Jerry that proved that you in fact can shoot the Berger 90's well in the 7.7 twist. Also through testing, it is found that the Berger 90's seem to respond better to odd grooved barrels than even numbered grooved barrels. Think that the bad rep on early results with those trying to get the Sierra bullets to go fast in longer barrels has held many back from trying them. Also, your case prep has to be more diligent, as to case weight distripution has to be held to closer tolerences. You can not go at it with the thought that you have with the bigger cases. Everything with the .223 is uber critical.
The 90's and the 6.5 teist had to do with sevice rifles and the Sierra 90 gr pills. That bullet is a long one. The problem with it is as Sierra has stated in the past, the bullet is not designed to pushed faster than 2650. But on the other hand, the Berger 90 is a different horse. We have found that a 7 or 7.2 twist to be very optimum for that bullet, as long as the barrel is throated correctly for it. My barrel is using a Wylde chamber throaded for the Berger bullet, whereby the bullet will be out the danger area of donunts. It is about ten thou into the lands. Laurie Holland has done a lot of research with the Berger 9p's as well as Jerry Tiernery (spelling?). In fact it was Jerry that proved that you in fact can shoot the Berger 90's well in the 7.7 twist. Also through testing, it is found that the Berger 90's seem to respond better to odd grooved barrels than even numbered grooved barrels. Think that the bad rep on early results with those trying to get the Sierra bullets to go fast in longer barrels has held many back from trying them. Also, your case prep has to be more diligent, as to case weight distripution has to be held to closer tolerences. You can not go at it with the thought that you have with the bigger cases. Everything with the .223 is uber critical.
Re: .223/5.56 for F T/R class?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...I've used about 30lbs of the stuff over the last couple years starting when Varget became unobtainium after Obama got elected. For the most part, I've ended up using a similar amount (some times literally the same charge weight) as I did with Varget. Yes I know even Vihtavouri's charts put N150 right between H414/W760/H4350, and Varget more up in the N135-N140 range... but all I can say is that it works like Varget, or maybe RE-15, for me in a .223 Rem or .308 Win....
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I'm definitely no fan of the 'Fresh Prince of Hot Air' or his gun grabbing Atty Gen, Eric Holder, but I haven't seen any shortage of Varget online or in Houston. VV140 is a different matter. I have only found one store in all of Houston that even carries Vihtavouri anymore.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...I've used about 30lbs of the stuff over the last couple years starting when Varget became unobtainium after Obama got elected. For the most part, I've ended up using a similar amount (some times literally the same charge weight) as I did with Varget. Yes I know even Vihtavouri's charts put N150 right between H414/W760/H4350, and Varget more up in the N135-N140 range... but all I can say is that it works like Varget, or maybe RE-15, for me in a .223 Rem or .308 Win....
</div></div>
I'm definitely no fan of the 'Fresh Prince of Hot Air' or his gun grabbing Atty Gen, Eric Holder, but I haven't seen any shortage of Varget online or in Houston. VV140 is a different matter. I have only found one store in all of Houston that even carries Vihtavouri anymore.
I'm pretty sure you posted just to see how many more people will get tricked into posting, thinking it's relevant... Although, half the powder used could be worthwhile if the panic last two years like it did after Obama's election in '08
There is little that is more fun that shooting a 223 with 90VLDs at mid range. I've fired thousands upon thousands of 308s and I enjoy long range, the lack of recoil in the 223 just makes it fun, and on top of that it's competitive.
I've shot my 700 at mid range and 1000yd - hit paper at 1000! It does work well at mid range and as stated 223 is a ball to shoot....and conserve powder.
This has a Shilen 1:8 heavy barrel, trued action, and I just put a Burris 5-25 XTR II, mil scope on her. According to the stability calculator I am limited to about 80gr or less - currently loading Lapua 77 Scenars with 22.8gr Varget to get 2816fps. Not real crazy about the Magpul stock but it's OK.
This has a Shilen 1:8 heavy barrel, trued action, and I just put a Burris 5-25 XTR II, mil scope on her. According to the stability calculator I am limited to about 80gr or less - currently loading Lapua 77 Scenars with 22.8gr Varget to get 2816fps. Not real crazy about the Magpul stock but it's OK.
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