223 ackley feeding issues

[SanSooShooter7]

Hello
I have an origin action in an MDT ACC chassis with Mdt metal 223 mags. The bolt can be felt dragging across the plastic insert with an empty mag. I can feed slowly with just 223 ammo, but not normal or fast speed. when it comes to the improved case it jams and a slight mark can be seen on the case. The ammo is loaded to mag length. Has anyone had this issue and solved it?

 

[RogueTanker]

I had to open up the lips on my accurate mags for my 223ai. Then they sit higher for the bolt to catch.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

And.........I believe Zermatt/ Bighorn recommends the use of the push feed bolt head for the .223 AI cartridges ( instead of the CRF head ) for improved feeding.

 

[JBoomhauer]

And.........I believe Zermatt/ Bighorn recommends the use of the push feed bolt head for the .223 AI cartridges ( instead of the CRF head ) for improved feeding.

I believe you are correct. Push feed on mine and it works well.

 

[SanSooShooter7]

oooohhh I did not know they had 2 different style bolt heads. I will be calling them in the morning. Thank you!!!

 

[patscrazy]

I just ordered everything from Northland to do a 223 Ackley on a bighorn origin ! Hopefully this isn’t an issue for me. I just emailed James from Northland about this to inquire. It sounds like it’s more the exception than the rule. But I guess we shall see once I get it all together and up and running.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

If I recall correctly, it was Zermatt / Bighorn that recommended the push feed head for the .223 AI.

 

[BWB]

As already stated, you will need to call Ray at Zermatt and get a Push Feed bolt head. 223AI and 204 both need the push feed to work reliably

 

[JJ3]

Any updates on this?

I’m having the same issue with formed cases although vanilla 223 feeds smooth as butter.

Reached out to Zermatt awaiting a response.

Pic for reference….mark on case body.

 

[patscrazy]

When I called them to ask last week, it was suggested to “try” with the control feed bolt head first and if it doesn’t work, call them back to swap out for the push feed head.

He also told me I should try with metal mags like the accurate mags because you can tweak them as opposed to the polymer mags.

 

[cjgemm]

Hmm, never had an issue. Using old ai magazines.

 

[patscrazy]

3 of those were up for sale recently too on arf.com for $100 and I missed out because I waited. I didn’t think they wouldn’t be any better than the mdt ones I already have. Hopefully they work great.

 

[JJ3]

I tried metal 223 and 350 legend aics (diff length feed lips), modified 223 aics metal and polymer mdt mags. No dice.

Tried KRG bravo and a modified bergara HMR stock with all combinations. No dice.

Tried beveling the chamber 60*x .45 no dice.

If the push feed head won’t fix it I quit.

 

[JJ3]

3 of those were up for sale recently too on arf.com for $100 and I missed out because I waited. I didn’t think they wouldn’t be any better than the mdt ones I already have. Hopefully they work great.

I’m my experience MDTs run better and are easier to load. I want a short 5 rd so run the modified aics 223 and 350 legend.

 

[BWB]

The push feed bolt face will likely solve this entire issue. The CRF bolt face causes the AI shoulders to get "stuck" going into the chamber because the CRF is trying to grab the back of the case and the sharp shoulders prevent the movement needed. The push feed just pushes the case out of the mag and loosely pushes it into the chamber.

 

[SanSooShooter7]

Hello

To answer your questions, I am not sure I have solved the problem. It is solved in testing on the floor and off the tripod.

Here is what I did:

I dremeled the feed lips on the metal MDT mag. I did not dremel the metal but the plastic. Under close scrutiny the front of the round started to enter the chamber but the back was held down by the feed lips too and it bound up.

I also was seating the bullets too close or over max magazine length. I shortened them to about 2.25”.

I did find that if I ran the bolt with determination they would feed into the controlled round feed head. If I run the bolt slowly they do not feed as well.

I have ordered and received 2 MDT polymer mags but not run dummy rounds through them yet.

If I can help let me know. I will repost when I run the dummy rounds through the polymer magazines, later this week.

 

[JJ3]

I called Zermatt today and spoke with Ray…he is sending a push feed head to try. He said if it works send back the control feed head.

I will update when received.

 

[Mordamer]

I have gotten the control round head to feed well by modifying the extractor. I have done this on multiple rifles. I take the extractor out and grind a small amount of the bottom to allow the rim of the case to pop up a little higher before it starts to slide under the extractor. I have used accurate metal mags and old AICS polymer mags with success after this mod.

 

[JJ3]

I have gotten the control round head to feed well by modifying the extractor. I have done this on multiple rifles. I take the extractor out and grind a small amount of the bottom to allow the rim of the case to pop up a little higher before it starts to slide under the extractor. I have used accurate metal mags and old AICS polymer mags with success after this mod.

Specifically on the Zermatt bolt head? Any pics? Would this be more reliable that a push feed head?

Thanks

 

[Mordamer]

Specifically on the Zermatt bolt head? Any pics? Would this be more reliable that a push feed head?

Thanks

Feast your eyes. Has worked on at least 3 .223 AI bighorns. The extractor still holds the case and functions normally as control round feed even with this mod.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Not a terrible way to fix the issue. Cheap part to replace if it doesn’t work out… I like it.

 

[Mordamer]

Not a terrible way to fix the issue. Cheap part to replace if it doesn’t work out… I like it.

Exactly.

 

[Aftermath]

I'm glad I found this thread because I was seriously thinking the CRF actions would be an improvement.

Mine is a tuned up Remington 700 action, so push feed. I have zero issues with feeding IF I operate the action with authority or at least rapidly. When the bolt is started forward, I do it forcefully and quickly. I was worried that maybe I was just jamming shit up but I loaded and ejected 60 rounds (10 rounds in 6 different mags) and those rounds were pretty much exactly as they were when I made them.

It will occasionally have a feed issue if I try to load slowly (quietly). If I have to load quietly, I just single load a round.

I'm just saying to maybe try being assertive as you load a round and see what happens.

 

[patscrazy]

Feast your eyes. Has worked on at least 3 .223 AI bighorns. The extractor still holds the case and functions normally as control round feed even with this mod.

So what do I use to grind it, if I need to go this route? File or dremel? Doesn’t look like you need to take much. Thanks

 

[Mordamer]

So what do I use to grind it, if I need to go this route? File or dremel? Doesn’t look like you need to take much. Thanks

That's up to you. I fixed one for a guy at a match one time by holding it in my fingers and rubbing it on a piece of concrete until it looked like mine.

 

[JJ3]

We’ll that’s worth the price of admission!! I’ll be trying this asap. THANK YOU

Feast your eyes. Has worked on at least 3 .223 AI bighorns. The extractor still holds the case and functions normally as control round feed even with this mod.

 

[JJ3]

I'm glad I found this thread because I was seriously thinking the CRF actions would be an improvement.

Mine is a tuned up Remington 700 action, so push feed. I have zero issues with feeding IF I operate the action with authority or at least rapidly. When the bolt is started forward, I do it forcefully and quickly. I was worried that maybe I was just jamming shit up but I loaded and ejected 60 rounds (10 rounds in 6 different mags) and those rounds were pretty much exactly as they were when I made them.

It will occasionally have a feed issue if I try to load slowly (quietly). If I have to load quietly, I just single load a round.

I'm just saying to maybe try being assertive as you load a round and see what happens.

I understand that thought pattern.

With mine when it jambs and I try to show my athoriti it will dent the case so bad it won’t chamber.

I also had a rem 700 223ai in the past and I did not have issues with it feeding. Never considered the push vs control feed till now.

 

[BWB]

I'm glad I found this thread because I was seriously thinking the CRF actions would be an improvement.

Mine is a tuned up Remington 700 action, so push feed. I have zero issues with feeding IF I operate the action with authority or at least rapidly. When the bolt is started forward, I do it forcefully and quickly. I was worried that maybe I was just jamming shit up but I loaded and ejected 60 rounds (10 rounds in 6 different mags) and those rounds were pretty much exactly as they were when I made them.

It will occasionally have a feed issue if I try to load slowly (quietly). If I have to load quietly, I just single load a round.

I'm just saying to maybe try being assertive as you load a round and see what happens.

The push feed bolt face will fix this issue. It really only causes issues with the 223 bolt face with the 204 and 223AI. The mod to the bolt face above appears to be an easy fix but you can't count out CRF actions as a whole because there are mods needed to run a very limited number of cartridges...

 

[Aftermath]

I'm glad I found this thread because I was seriously thinking the CRF actions would be an improvement.

Mine is a tuned up Remington 700 action, so push feed. I have zero issues with feeding IF I operate the action with authority or at least rapidly. When the bolt is started forward, I do it forcefully and quickly. I was worried that maybe I was just jamming shit up but I loaded and ejected 60 rounds (10 rounds in 6 different mags) and those rounds were pretty much exactly as they were when I made them.

It will occasionally have a feed issue if I try to load slowly (quietly). If I have to load quietly, I just single load a round.

I'm just saying to maybe try being assertive as you load a round and see what happens.

The push feed bolt face will fix this issue. It really only causes issues with the 223 bolt face with the 204 and 223AI. The mod to the bolt face above appears to be an easy fix but you can't count out CRF actions as a whole because there are mods needed to run a very limited number of cartridges...

The push feed bolt face will fix which issue?

 

[BWB]

The feeding issue in Zermatt actions for certain calibers with sharp shoulders. The push feed option fixes that issue and you can still have a CRF bolt face for, basically, every other cartridge to then have the CRF perks available to you.

 

[JJ3]

Joyful update….

Modified extractor works! Manually cycled several different rounds through several different mags. MDT poly and aics 350 legend mags work best for me. Have one 10rd aics 10rd that appears to have a weak spring allowing nose dives but other thank that it’s running!

Pics of everything….

 

[Mordamer]

Joyful update….

Modified extractor works! Manually cycled several different rounds through several different mags. MDT poly and aics 350 legend mags work best for me. Have one 10rd aics 10rd that appears to have a weak spring allowing nose dives but other thank that it’s running!

Pics of everything….

I'm such a freaking genius.

 

[JJ3]

I'm such a freaking genius.

Absolutely! Thank you.

I will update when the push feed head comes in for comparison also.

 

[JJ3]

Update…I’m learning more everyday.

First off big thanks to Zermatt for sending out push feed head. In my mailbox in 48hrs at no charge. That’s impressive and has earned my business moving forward.

Downside is the push feed head does not run as smoothly or consistent at the modified extractor control feed head. As the name implies I have more control with the CF head. I’ll be sending the PF head back to Ray.

Comparison pic of all three heads below. I will also update when I have time to go live with it. Maybe Friday if I can brave the 15* high we will have here in TN!

 

[patscrazy]

What did you use to take off the corner of extractor? And how much do I need to takeoff? Thanks

 

[JJ3]

I marked it with a sharpie matching the angle just below the extractor itself. Removed it, put it in vise and flat filed it down till it looked like Mordamers picture above. Took about 10min start to finish.

Looking at it again I could Prol take a little more off

 

[BWB]

Update…I’m learning more everyday.

First off big thanks to Zermatt for sending out push feed head. In my mailbox in 48hrs at no charge. That’s impressive and has earned my business moving forward.

Downside is the push feed head does not run as smoothly or consistent at the modified extractor control feed head. As the name implies I have more control with the CF head. I’ll be sending the PF head back to Ray.

Comparison pic of all three heads below. I will also update when I have time to go live with it. Maybe Friday if I can brave the 15* high we will have here in TN!

This is great comparison information!! Thanks for your testing with both and giving great feedback.

 

[JJ3]

Well got it out this am in the 8* weather. It runs but is clunky. It requires some authority and speed to run smoothly but it will if you do so. Shooting off a bench with bipod and rear bag i kept pushing the whole rifle forward while trying to chamber, very iritating. I did pick up 200fps over my mk262 clone loads while keeping the same accuracy and minimal POI shift. That is with zero load work up just took some interweb data on varget/80gr eld-m and rolled with it.

I will have to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Also Ray at Zermatt is sending me a extractor kit out to modify and send back so they can review to try and help solve the problem with these specific cartridges....pretty cool.

 

[patscrazy]

Well got it out this am in the 8* weather. It runs but is clunky. It requires some authority and speed to run smoothly but it will if you do so. Shooting off a bench with bipod and rear bag i kept pushing the whole rifle forward while trying to chamber, very iritating. I did pick up 200fps over my mk262 clone loads while keeping the same accuracy and minimal POI shift. That is with zero load work up just took some interweb data on varget/80gr eld-m and rolled with it.

I will have to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Also Ray at Zermatt is sending me a extractor kit out to modify and send back so they can review to try and help solve the problem with these specific cartridges....pretty cool.

Sucks to hear that still not 100% perfect. Really hoping that extractor fix was going to be the solution. Sounds like it’s hit or miss. I’m gonna be in the same boat as you.

Is the juice worth the squeeze to go with the 223 AI cartridge? Definitely struggling with that question now. Probably should’ve done more research before I jumped right in to do the AI variant.

Seriously considering, calling up shilen before they chamber my barrel, and just going with the straight 223 throated long for the heavies.

 

[JJ3]

I enjoy running my regular 223. I don’t enjoy the AI even with an extra 200fps…it’s been a pain but I’ve learned a lot.

My goal was to gain fps equivalent to a longer barrel and it does achieve that.

 

[patscrazy]

I enjoy running my regular 223. I don’t enjoy the AI even with an extra 200fps…it’s been a pain but I’ve learned a lot.

My goal was to gain fps equivalent to a longer barrel and it does achieve that.

That was my goal too. I wanted to run a long barrel 223AI for PRS type shooting. Just some local, one day match stuff. Just to get my feet wet, but to be able to hang with the 6BR crowd with that extra velocity, shooting 88s or 85.5s. I have all the once fired Lake City brass I could ever want for free. Low recoiling cartridge. Good 22 bullets are relatively cheap. And It uses less powder, so in my mind it was a good cost effective cartridge for competition in my area. But if it doesn’t function smoothly, then it defeats the whole purpose.

 

[JJ3]

Your experience maybe different than mine. I’ll Prol pull my barrel and run the 223 though.

 

[cjgemm]

run vanilla .223 though my AI all the time. Shoots great.

 

[patscrazy]

Your experience maybe different than mine. I’ll Prol pull my barrel and run the 223 though.

Did you try the push feed head as well? Both clunky?

 

[JJ3]

Did you try the push feed head as well? Both clunky?

Only with dummy rounds. Once the case leaves the mag it flops around in the chamber before it settles in enough to click under the extractor allowing the shoulder to hang up. It will feed but again clunky.

I may try it live fire next time I get a chance.

 

[JJ3]

run vanilla .223 though my AI all the time. Shoots great.

Agreed. Mine shoots 75 bthp in .3s consistency….if I do my part.

 

[Mordamer]

Try taking a little more off the extractor.

 

[JJ3]

Try taking a little more off the extractor.

Well I took some more off of the extractor and it cured the last bit of feeding issues! It does feel a little different on extraction now.....somewhat weak. I can still control how far empties fly for the most part just feels a little loose. Last round from mag wants to stay in action if I try to let it dribble out the side into the pile rather than send it sailing. Bottom line though is it does work and Ill be keeping it for load development. Thank you for the input.

Also I ran a arbitrary charge weight of TAC in formed FC cases under a 75 BTHP-M that this barrel shoots particularly well and got 3030FPS, 34ES, 15SD at 31* keeping 1moa and no wild pressure signs, barrel is 18" finish. I wont run this load without work up but I was not expecting that speed as I typically get 2675-2700 with that bullet as a standard load. Impressive.