223 factory precision ammo for Trainer?

[southerngolfer]

I think I’m going to pull the trigger and get a trainer built. I don’t reload so I’m limited to factory offerings. Im looking for accurate but cheap. I know cheap doesn’t belong in the same sentence as PRS but it’s worth a shot. Let me know what barrel length, twist, and factory ammo weight your using. Much appreciated hide

 

[Sticks]

I would run a 1:8 twist with at least a 18" and shoot IMI 77 Grain (5.56mm not .223!). Since you are making a trainer, you may want to think of going the same length as your match rifle.

 

[southerngolfer]

I would run a 1:8 twist with at least a 18" and shoot IMI 77 Grain (5.56mm not .223!). Since you are making a trainer, you may want to think of going the same length as your match rifle.

I think your right, keeping it as close to a match rifle would be ideal. Thank u for the teply

 

[Lionsbreath]

I’m gonna do the same thing, and I don’t hand-load either, but I’m going .308 trainer. If you’re buying match ammo or whatever practice rd, it’s not that much cheaper to shoot a .308.. plus you get better at managing recoil, spotting impacts- this is just my .02 and I also miss having a .308

 

[bunsen27]

In addition to the IMI ammo previously mentioned you may want to try:

5.56 Target/Practice

Brass: Offered in new brass only. *IMPORTANT: Though both cartridges look identical, 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure than .223, which is why rifles chambered for a 5.56 cartridge can fire .223, but it is not recommended that 5.56 cartridges are fired out of a rifle chambered for .223 Did you...

www.defenderammunition.com

or

Norma USA 223 Remington Ammo Match 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT - Ammo Deals

Norma USA 223 Remington Ammo Match 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 223 Remington ammo

www.targetsportsusa.com

 

[mmlook]

Fiocchi Exacta 77gr SMK are good as well

Fiocchi Exacta 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP - Ammo Deals

Fiocchi Exacta 223 Remington Ammo 77 Grain SMKHP for sale at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy great deals on 223 Remington ammo f

www.targetsportsusa.com

If you plan to shoot a lot, you should look at running a progressive setup like a 550 or 650
should pay for itself after 1500 rounds or so.

match grade(<1moa) 223 stuff is not cheap like the 55-62gr stuff

 

[southerngolfer]

Fiocchi Exacta 77gr SMK are good as well

Fiocchi Exacta 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP - Ammo Deals

Fiocchi Exacta 223 Remington Ammo 77 Grain SMKHP for sale at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy great deals on 223 Remington ammo f

www.targetsportsusa.com

If you plan to shoot a lot, you should look at running a progressive setup like a 550 or 650
should pay for itself after 1500 rounds or so.

match grade(<1moa) 223 stuff is not cheap like the 55-62gr stuff

Ok, that might very well be a viable option. I’ve never priced reloading equipment so I’m clueless

 

[mmlook]

progressive reloading equipment for 223/pistol is cheap

550's are $500 new + dies

650's are $600 new + dies

dont expect to produce 0.5moa 308/6.5cm ammo
but for training 223 stuff, it'll rival most off the shelf match stuff.
and you should be able to load for half the price or less, due to once fired 223 being so cheap

I load my match ammo for about $0.35-0.40 per round

 

[southerngolfer]

progressive reloading equipment for 223/pistol is cheap

550's are $500 new + dies

650's are $600 new + dies

dont expect to produce 0.5moa 308/6.5cm ammo
but for training 223 stuff, it'll rival most off the shelf match stuff.
and you should be able to load for half the price or less, due to once fired 223 being so cheap

I load my match ammo for about $0.35-0.40 per round

Wow, this is all very promising but I’m assuming your a seasoned reloader. Newbie here

 

[mmlook]

sort of, not really.

I started reloading pistol ammo for USPSA about 8 months ago.

Just started reloading rifle stuff a couple months ago for PRS.

Currently use:
650
Lyman Turret
Lee Single Stage

it's not that hard, it's just a lot of work and attention to detail.

definitely worth it in the end though, and it pays for itself if you research and do it properly
- i.e. order all your components on sale and in bulk
- buy once, cry once on your dies and prep equipment

 

[southerngolfer]

That’s my motto these days, BOCO. Lol

 

[Sixfivesavage]

progressive reloading equipment for 223/pistol is cheap

550's are $500 new + dies

650's are $600 new + dies

dont expect to produce 0.5moa 308/6.5cm ammo
but for training 223 stuff, it'll rival most off the shelf match stuff.
and you should be able to load for half the price or less, due to once fired 223 being so cheap

I load my match ammo for about $0.35-0.40 per round

There's many around here that load 223, 6.5 and 308 and other stuff for precision on a 650. I do it, there's quite a few here that do....quite a bit more accurate than .5 moa ammo too.

 

[beretta_man11]

I've been shooting the hornady 73gr eld factory loads, and they're doing quite well. Ballistically, it gives the slightly heavier 77smk loads from federal / backhills / norma / etc a run for their money. Sometimes, I'll find it for around $16 per box.

 

[southerngolfer]

Much appreciated guys

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Don’t build anything higher than a 1/7.5 twist and I would stick to a 1/7 twist. Eventually you’ll want to shoot the heavier 88-90 grain bullets. Mine is a 1/7.7 and I have to stick with 75/77 grain. I can make it to 1000 but not near as easy as with my 224 Valkyrie shooting 90 grain in a 1/6.5 twist.

 

[mmlook]

There's many around here that load 223, 6.5 and 308 and other stuff for precision on a 650. I do it, there's quite a few here that do....quite a bit more accurate than .5 moa ammo too.

good to know, I just bought the 223 conversion and case feeder plate.

I was debating giving it a try for larger caliber stuff.

what powder throw do you use?

 

[southerngolfer]

Don’t build anything higher than a 1/7.5 twist and I would stick to a 1/7 twist. Eventually you’ll want to shoot the heavier 88-90 grain bullets. Mine is a 1/7.7 and I have to stick with 75/77 grain. I can make it to 1000 but not near as easy as with my 224 Valkyrie shooting 90 grain in a 1/6.5 twist.

appreciate the advice .

 

[Sixfivesavage]

good to know, I just bought the 223 conversion and case feeder plate.

I was debating giving it a try for larger caliber stuff.

what powder throw do you use?

If you're gonna go down the road of loading precision stuff on it, there's a few threads worth reading on here about just that. The short answer is you will need the clamped heads, or at the very least the machined heads and you will also want to weigh each charge off the press and use the area 419 funnel kit to charge the cases, not the powder dropper. For semiautomatic stuff I use the dillon dropper and 8208 with the micrometer modification and heavy polishing.

 

[DOA]

My profile pic is 5 shots, 4 in one hole with one called dropped shot. White circle is 1". That was with 1 in 8" Bartlein barrel. 69 grain .223 ammo with Varget powder. Unless you are shooting anything over 77, a 1 in 8 twist is fine.

 

[southerngolfer]

If you're gonna go down the road of loading precision stuff on it, there's a few threads worth reading on here about just that. The short answer is you will need the clamped heads, or at the very least the machined heads and you will also want to weigh each charge off the press and use the area 419 funnel kit to charge the cases, not the powder dropper. For semiautomatic stuff I use the dillon dropper and 8208 with the micrometer modification and heavy polishing.

yeah, I'll need to do a lot of reading and asking questions if I decided to go down this avenue.

 

[southerngolfer]

My profile pic is 5 shots, 4 in one hole with one called dropped shot. White circle is 1". That was with 1 in 8" Bartlein barrel. 69 grain .223 ammo with Varget powder. Unless you are shooting anything over 77, a 1 in 8 twist is fine.

is there any reason to shoot anything over 77gr? looks like a lot of offerings in the 68 through 77gr?

 

[PracticalTactical]

If you are training for PRS, the upper bullet weight limit for 223 in Tactical Division is 77 grains at a max speed of 2800 FPS.

F-Class has no limit, so you can use whatever bullet you like at whatever speed you can hit... safely.

If you base the action on the Rem 700 then it's best to set it up to feed from AI format mags. That way if you decide to hand load you can take advantage of the longer seating depth and increase the case capacity by seating the bullets out farther than factory ammo and feed from a magazine.

Or find an RPR or Tikka CTR in 223 which can already do that.

FWIW, my PRS practice load uses Hornady 75 grain ELDs seated to 2.500" OAL. For F-Class I use 80 grain SMKs seated to 2.555 OAL, but in a different rifle with a longer throat. Running right around 2900 FPS.

 

[mmlook]

is there any reason to shoot anything over 77gr? looks like a lot of offerings in the 68 through 77gr?

normally the higher the bullet weight, the higher the BC

kind of why the 224 valkyrie has a lot of appeal to the AR guys. it allows them to run the 80-90gr bullets at AR mag length, and no lose case capacity

 

[bschneiderheinze]

If you want to shoot past 700 you will want something heavier than the 77 grain eventually

 

[bschneiderheinze]

If you are training for PRS, the upper bullet weight limit for 223 in Tactical Division is 77 grains at a max speed of 2800 FPS.

F-Class has no limit, so you can use whatever bullet you like at whatever speed you can hit... safely.

If you base the action on the Rem 700 then it's best to set it up to feed from AI format mags. That way if you decide to hand load you can take advantage of the longer seating depth and increase the case capacity by seating the bullets out farther than factory ammo and feed from a magazine.

Or find an RPR or Tikka CTR in 223 which can already do that.

FWIW, my PRS practice load uses Hornady 75 grain ELDs seated to 2.500" OAL. For F-Class I use 80 grain SMKs seated to 2.555 OAL, but in a different rifle with a longer throat. Running right around 2900 FPS.

Its 3000 fps not 2800 fps

 

[spife7980]

Its 3000 fps not 2800 fps

 

[PracticalTactical]

Sorry you are correct, 2800 FPS is for 308.

Brain fart

 

[bschneiderheinze]

There is no reason to run to a 8 twist it limits you to 77 grain and lower where a 7-7.5 twist can let you run 55 up to 90 grain.

 

[southerngolfer]

There is no reason to run to a 8 twist it limits you to 77 grain and lower where a 7-7.5 twist can let you run 55 up to 90 grain.

interesting. I'll have to ask my smith to see what he says about this.

 

[deersniper]

If you are only shooting to 1-300 yards lighter bullets like 50-60 grain are fine.

I always lean towards black hills or hornady.
I also bought a pile of 50 grain AE tipped varmint when it was on sale it shoots well enough especially for the price.

Handloadint is a no go for me. I don't have enough time to shoot let alone screw around with making ammo.

Has anyone tried this ammo? Decent price and bullet

Ammunition - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

[

 

[deersniper]

There is no reason to run to a 8 twist it limits you to 77 grain and lower where a 7-7.5 twist can let you run 55 up to 90 grain.

How often does any one shoot >77s? Don't 90s require single loading.

 

[southerngolfer]

If you are only shooting to 1-300 yards lighter bullets like 50-60 grain are fine.

I always lean towards black hills or hornady.
I also bought a pile of 50 grain AE tipped varmint when it was on sale it shoots well enough especially for the price.

Handloadint is a no go for me. I don't have enough time to shoot let alone screw around with making ammo.

Has anyone tried this ammo? Decent price and bullet

Ammunition - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

perfect. I think training and working on mechanics inside 300 is my main goal. what twist are you using?

 

[deersniper]

I have a 1:8 in my SAC DT conversion and either 1:7 or 1:8 in my ARs I would have to look.

I do have a Reminngton 700 223 done up by AWC in the 90s. It is a 1:12 twist and I have killed more groundhogs than you would believe from 50-550 with Black Hills 60 grain vmax. It really falls off after 550 though.

53 grain super performance my Hornay is no slouch for long range either. I am not the best shot anymore due to time but used that load to kill a groundhog at 680 with the 18" SAC

 

[308pirate]

shoot IMI 77 Grain (5.56mm not .223!).

That shit is not match-grade ammunition. Nor is anything loaded to NATO specs.

 

[308pirate]

Don't 90s require single loading.

Only if your magazine is 223 SAAMI length. The MDT 223 AICS mag is long as fuck and I bet you can run 80s through it. Maybe even 90s though I don't have any to try.

 

[308pirate]

I think I’m going to pull the trigger and get a trainer built. I don’t reload so I’m limited to factory offerings. Im looking for accurate but cheap. I know cheap doesn’t belong in the same sentence as PRS but it’s worth a shot. Let me know what barrel length, twist, and factory ammo weight your using. Much appreciated hide

You do know that bullet weight is an almost irrelevant factor in bullet accuracy, right?

Instead of focusing on bullet weight why don't you order a selection of match and premium varmint ammo with bullet weights between 50 and 77 grains and then do the equivalent of load development?

There's no way to predict what your particular rifle will like and asking others is not going to yield useful information as far as a specific ammo.

If you want the closest to a sure thing either Hornady Match or Federal Gold Medal.

If you get 22 - 24" 1-7 barrel you will be able to stabilize any load out of the range I recommended.

 

[Sticks]

That shit is not match-grade ammunition. Nor is anything loaded to NATO specs.

Kept me at .5 MOA out of a Compass Lake MK12 barrel by Centurion, single digit ES/SD. Velocities in the 3100 range (Been over 2 years since I shot 5.56). Also the fastest of the 4 flavors (Federal Gold, Norma, Remington and one other that I can not remember all under 2800). Kept under MOA at 300, and did just fine for me at the SRM Match that I shot....so the accuracy did not go to crap past 300.

More importantly this is a TRAINER RIFLE and the ammo can be had for .66 per now, and I have seen it on deal for .50 per - what I bought my 500 round case at. Match ammo is not necessarily what is needed, but better than bulk M193 or M262 bulk.

But hey, if the OP want's to build this up to a comp rifle, then yeah, gotta start loading because you are not going to get MATCH ammo at decent velocities to play at the long range - Have not shot Prime or Australian either so I can't speak to velocities and consistancy on them.

 

[Crang]

The whole point of my trainer is so I dont have to handload for it. Sometimes Bonefroggunclub.com has wicked cheap Hornady steel case 75gr 5.56 practice ammo I will buy up. As much as I like my good rifles to be .25MOA I really dont need them much better than 1 MOA for practice anyway. The windy ranges I go to and positions I work on more than hide the difference at my mediocre skill level anyway. I rather be out shooting for $.35 to $.40/round

 

[themightytimmah]

The ADI is pretty good - last time I sighted in my AR at 50 yards with ADI, the group was all touching. Maybe a .9 MOA group with a scope that doesn’t help any for precision shooting.

I also had two rounds of it almost touch (not shooting for groups) at 450 yds with the same AR.

 

[PracticalTactical]

What I like about fast twist barrels especially with 223 is the extra rotational speed cranks up more explosive terminal performance.... If you use a hollow point anyway...

Fast twist wont help if you're using FMJs or green tips though... In that case the slow twist helps it tumble sooner.

 

[southerngolfer]

I appreciate the helps guys. my smith talked me into a 1:7 twist. says I should be able to shoot anything from 55-80+ grains. after I get it back, I'll try and bunch out. I figured I could use anything inside of 200 yards to work on trigger time, follow though, and staying on target. if I shoot out to distance, I'll try something something heavier

 

[southerngolfer]

You do know that bullet weight is an almost irrelevant factor in bullet accuracy, right?

Instead of focusing on bullet weight why don't you order a selection of match and premium varmint ammo with bullet weights between 50 and 77 grains and then do the equivalent of load development?

There's no way to predict what your particular rifle will like and asking others is not going to yield useful information as far as a specific ammo.

If you want the closest to a sure thing either Hornady Match or Federal Gold Medal.

If you get 22 - 24" 1-7 barrel you will be able to stabilize any load out of the range I recommended.

yes, this all makes sense. appreciate the advice @308pirate

 

[PracticalTactical]

Regarding the comment above that there is no way to predict what a particular rifle will like....

Not exactly true

I've been shooting F-Class for the past roughly 20 years or so here in Canada and I've gotten somewhat spoiled when it comes to load development in a single shot environment.

What I mean to say is that I can throat the barrel to suit the seating depth (As far out as possible) so the throat is perfect for how I want to configure the high BC round of my choosing.

That's all well and fine in a single shot environment and the only real complication comes from attempting to extract a live round that may be longer than the rifle is capable of extracting... Try extracting a .308 win 185 grain Berger Jug seated forward of the donut from a Rem 700 short action for example. You'll need to pull the bolt to get a loaded round out.

So this brings me to the point with regard to PRS rifle which is invariably a repeater... Now the cartridge overall length needs to be short enough to feed from a mag.

So we cant just go off willie nillie and seat any old bullet to jam the lands... Which is usually about where best accuracy will come from.

So in a repeater environment we need to find bullets that have a profile that coincidentally happens to fit in the mag while at the same time having a tip profile that allows the bullet to almost touch the lands. If we seat the above mentioned 185 Jug back far enough to fit into an AI mag, the bearing surface will begin somewhere inside the neck of the case because the tip profile is too long and slender.

On the other hand, as an example, we could go with a 155 SMK with a stubbier nose profile. In this case for some mysterious reason the bullet just happens to shoot well in most factory chambers.

When you think about it, it is not mysterious at all and happens to shoot well because the short nose allows the round to fit in the case with the bearing surface close to the lands.

Even the 155.5 Berger has a longer nose profile and is therefore forced to jump to the lands and is likely not going to shoot as well as the good old SMK.... But that does depend on your chamber... or amount of throat wear.

So the moral of the story is really about having some insight into how far the ammunition of choice will jump to the lands in your particular rifle.

If you are not a hand loader and not familiar with the challenges I mentioned here, then ammunition selection can be a bit of a guessing game.

If you are not a hand loader then all I can suggest is that you disassemble a round and determine how far it needs to jump to touch the lands. 95 percent chance the one that is closest to the lands will be what shoots best.

And so I will end by stating that it is much more difficult to load for a repeater than for a single shot rifle. And even more difficult if you want over the counter ammo to work well in your rifle.

 

[308pirate]

Regarding the comment above that there is no way to predict what a particular rifle will like....

Not exactly true

I've been shooting F-Class for the past roughly 20 years or so here in Canada and I've gotten somewhat spoiled when it comes to load development in a single shot environment.

What I mean to say is that I can throat the barrel to suit the seating depth (As far out as possible) so the throat is perfect for how I want to configure the high BC round of my choosing.

That's all well and fine in a single shot environment and the only real complication comes from attempting to extract a live round that may be longer than the rifle is capable of extracting... Try extracting a .308 win 185 grain Berger Jug seated forward of the donut from a Rem 700 short action for example. You'll need to pull the bolt to get a loaded round out.

So this brings me to the point with regard to PRS rifle which is invariably a repeater... Now the cartridge overall length needs to be short enough to feed from a mag.

So we cant just go off willie nillie and seat any old bullet to jam the lands... Which is usually about where best accuracy will come from.

So in a repeater environment we need to find bullets that have a profile that coincidentally happens to fit in the mag while at the same time having a tip profile that allows the bullet to almost touch the lands. If we seat the above mentioned 185 Jug back far enough to fit into an AI mag, the bearing surface will begin somewhere inside the neck of the case because the tip profile is too long and slender.

On the other hand, as an example, we could go with a 155 SMK with a stubbier nose profile. In this case for some mysterious reason the bullet just happens to shoot well in most factory chambers.

When you think about it, it is not mysterious at all and happens to shoot well because the short nose allows the round to fit in the case with the bearing surface close to the lands.

Even the 155.5 Berger has a longer nose profile and is therefore forced to jump to the lands and is likely not going to shoot as well as the good old SMK.... But that does depend on your chamber... or amount of throat wear.

So the moral of the story is really about having some insight into how far the ammunition of choice will jump to the lands in your particular rifle.

If you are not a hand loader and not familiar with the challenges I mentioned here, then ammunition selection can be a bit of a guessing game.

If you are not a hand loader then all I can suggest is that you disassemble a round and determine how far it needs to jump to touch the lands. 95 percent chance the one that is closest to the lands will be what shoots best.

And so I will end by stating that it is much more difficult to load for a repeater than for a single shot rifle. And even more difficult if you want over the counter ammo to work well in your rifle.

TLDR

You're overcomplicating the shit out of a simple problem. Not surprisingly, you're an F class shooter.

 

[Jay Ell Gee]

Maybe I’m out of the loop, but do people regularly fire 5.56 ammo in 223 precision rifles?

 

[trob_205]

CBC/Magtech makes a 77gr OTM load they sell by the 50 round box. It’s never shot worse than MK262 but has shot better than 262 for me in some ARs. If you havnt settled on anything yet I’d at least give it a shot. It’s plenty cheap in comparison to some match ammo.

 

[southerngolfer]

CBC/Magtech makes a 77gr OTM load they sell by the 50 round box. It’s never shot worse than MK262 but has shot better than 262 for me in some ARs. If you havnt settled on anything yet I’d at least give it a shot. It’s plenty cheap in comparison to some match ammo.

Perfect, exactly what I’m looking for. Thank you I’ll give them a try

 

[deersniper]

CBC/Magtech makes a 77gr OTM load they sell by the 50 round box. It’s never shot worse than MK262 but has shot better than 262 for me in some ARs. If you havnt settled on anything yet I’d at least give it a shot. It’s plenty cheap in comparison to some match ammo.

Thanks for the info. Don't know how I missed that. All the reviews say it's great stuff

 

[trob_205]

Thanks for the info. Don't know how I missed that. All the reviews say it's great stuff

It really is. I had a 18” noveske build that would shoot little tiny knot holes with it. BH was still 3/4” out of it but the CBC was always lights out.

 

[reich10]

I’m currently “building” a 223 on an Origin. I went with 1-7 and plan to shoot fiocchi and Hornady black 62 grain for practice and if I want to shoot a match with it I will just buy hornady match or federal match.

I have had good luck with Hornady Black ammo. It’s not breaking any records but I can hit anything 600 in with it. At academy and online it runs 55 cents a round. Fiocchi runs like 36 cents if you buy 1000.

Here’s a link

I reload for anything other than 223. You would be hard pressed to reload for under .36 a round if you consider your time and not just components.