.223 neck tension; what am I doing soooo wrong? (RESOLVED, READ ORIGINAL POST)

[ThingsThatGoBang]

UPDATE 2-5-22:
Thank you everyone. Truly excellent professional responses and I very much appreciate everyone’s efforts.
Here’s the resolution.
I purchased Sierra 77 Matchking‘s, a redding small base sizing die with .243 and .244 bushings (and some Varget powder that was in stock which made me very happy).
I first tried the Redding sizing die with the berger bullets using the .244 bushing and there is no difference, they still slipped. I then tried the .243 bushing, again bullet slips. Dang, I really want these Bergers to work!
I then seated the Sierra Matchking with the .243 bushing, also getting .005 neck tension, and the bullet is solid. No slip! Success!
I conclude that the problem is that once the pressure ring of the Berger bullet clears the neck it becomes a slippery bullet (if that is the correct technical term). Berger technical support tells me these bullets are for AR15 use, and I’m not convinced. In order to seat it at 2.26 to fit the magazine the pressure ring clears the neck and this is when my problems begin. I suppose crimping the bullet at the neck could be a solution but then I would have variable neck tension which defeats my intent of a precise load.
In comparison, the Sierra bullets have a consistent .224 for the entire bearing surface, unlike the Berger which is just above the boat tail.
Again great suggestions, thank you everyone.

ORIGINAL POST:
My new venture into reloading .223 isn’t off to a very good start. Help! SOS!
My own once fired Lake City brass, ultrasonic cleaned with Bore Tech, primer crimp removed, AMP annealed, Hornady One Shot case lube, Forster full length sized, trimmed, VLD deburred, sinclair carbide turning mandrel, ultrasonic cleaned a second time:
OD .244
ID .221
a theoretical .003 neck tension with a .224 bullet.
Seating A (see photo) was like a hot knife through warm butter, and with little pressing on bullet against a wall, it recessed into the case.
Guess the turning mandrel was a wasted step, so I resized the same brass with these results, .003 less as expected.
OD .241
ID .218
Seated OD is now .246. .005 neck tension, right? .005 should be plenty, right? See photo of Seating B. This was more force than A, but I’m an old weakling, and it still moved, so it’s unlikely I’m exerting too much force.
Reloading for semi automatic MK12, so “slippery bullets” aren’t going to lead to success.
Is there an option to make the neck tighter?
Interestingly, the Berger bullets are measuring .223, despite advertised as .224 (see photo).
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Rathmatik]

Is the problem not that you’re seating too far? If you simply seat it very high, are you able to push it through with just your fingers? If you really need to squeeze the necks more, Type S die or a Lee Collet would help.

 

[winniedonkey]

What seating die are you using?

 

[whatsupdoc]

The sizing die, is it a bushing die?
Your caliper or whatever you are using is off, NO way are those bullets .223

Try resizing using the expander ball that comes with the die.

No way should you be able to push the bullets into the case by pushing them into a wall.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Is the problem not that you’re seating too far? If you simply seat it very high, are you able to push it through with just your fingers? If you really need to squeeze the necks more, Type S die or a Lee Collet would help.

Thanks. The photo sure makes it look like Im going overboard with seating depth, but I’m not. Seated OAL is 2.26 prior to my press against a wall test.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

What seating die are you using?

Short Action Customs “The “Seating Die with the Model 1 Stem to an overall 2.26 overall length.

 

[Rathmatik]

Thanks. The photo sure makes it look like Im going overboard with seating depth, but I’m not. Seated OAL is 2.26 prior to my press against a wall test.

Oh sorry, missed the part about pushing against a wall. Hmm, guess I’ve never tried that with any round before.

 

[HousePlant]

Gotta be the boolats unless your measuring device AND your sizing die is off.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

The sizing die, is it a bushing die?
Your caliper or whatever you are using is off, NO way are those bullets .223

Try resizing using the expander ball that comes with the die.

No way should you be able to push the bullets into the case by pushing them into a wall.

Die is a Forster full length sizing die with decapper and expander ball removed. I’ll look into bushing dies. I also see Forster offers custom neck tension dies, so maybe that’s a solution.
I don’t see how using the expander ball can help when I need tighter, not looser.
I agree, pushing against a wall must not budge the bullet.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Gotta be the boolats unless your measuring device AND your sizing die is off.

The bullets are Bergers, should be good stuff, right?
It’s a Mitutoyo caliper, so I trust it is accurate.
Sizing die is new, I’ll contact Forster to see if they have thoughts.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Is the problem not that you’re seating too far? If you simply seat it very high, are you able to push it through with just your fingers? If you really need to squeeze the necks more, Type S die or a Lee Collet would help.

Seating overall length is 2.26, so not too deep. I’ll look into those suggestion, thanks.

 

[Dave62677]

Measure your loaded round neck diameter, then measure your sized brass neck diameter. You should see what’s going on.

If you can’t figure out, do the following

Measure your bullet diameter
Measure your brass neck thickness
Measure your sized brass neck diameter.

You should able to see where is the problem

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

What seating die are you using?

Short Action Customs “The “Seating Die with the Model 1 Stem to an 2.26 overall length.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Measure your loaded round neck diameter, then measure your sized brass neck diameter. You should see what’s going on.

.241 and .246, .005 neck tension, right?

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Is the problem not that you’re seating too far? If you simply seat it very high, are you able to push it through with just your fingers? If you really need to squeeze the necks more, Type S die or a Lee Collet would help.

Can‘t move with my fingers, need to press against firm surface. Being semi automatic, can’t have bullets moving in or out. Good suggestions, I’ll look into them.

 

[HousePlant]

The bullets are Bergers, should be good stuff, right?
It’s a Mitutoyo caliper, so I trust it is accurate.
Sizing die is new, I’ll contact Forster to see if they have thoughts.

Yeah, sure, but in 2021 and thus far in 2022 almost everything I've bought with a reputation for quality has failed. Shit is happening more now!

 

[winniedonkey]

Short Action Customs “The “Seating Die with the Model 1 Stem to an 2.26 overall length.

I don't have that die however I had results like you are getting once. It was a small difference in setting the die up between that and a properly seated round. Kind of a vague response by myself but didn't want to had make shit worse.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

What seating die are you using?

Short Action Customs “The “Seating Die with the Model 1 Stem to a 2.26 overall length.

 

[918v]

I think you over annealed the necks and now they are too soft to hold a bullet.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

I think you over annealed the necks and now they are too soft to hold a bullet.

Interesting! Since a friend annealed them for me it’s great that I get to give him crap. LOL. Given it’s an AMP (the best, right?) I’m not so sure that’s the problem. Any idea how to test to see if it’s over annealed?

 

[918v]

Can you collapse the case mouth with your thumb nail?

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Can you collapse the case mouth with your thumb nail?

No, and I have a sturdy thumbnail. I also tried to pinch the opening between two fingers, no movement. I pressed it against the workbench, and it bent, as would be expected.

 

[918v]

Then they’re not too soft. Any lube inside the neck?

 

[Bacarrat]

You need to zero out your calipers and back out your seating die by a lot. You are seating way too deep. B looks way shorter then 2.26. I have loaded the 77gr Bergers before and I load thousands of 77gr SMK a year and they are not even close to being that short.

 

[Dave62677]

.241 and .246, .005 neck tension, right?

.241 and .246, .005 neck tension, right?

My loaded round measure .250 with starline brass / smk 69gr

Your brass neck is really thin at 0.011. But your neck tension seem right.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Then they’re not too soft. Any lube inside the neck?

I ultrasonic cleaned with bore tech for five minutes at 140 degrees, rinsed in distilled water, compressed air dried, dried at room temp 24 hours too, so the lube should be gone, I would guess.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

My loaded round measure .250 with starline brass / smk 69gr

Your brass neck is really thin at 0.011. But your neck tension seem right.

Good stuff thanks. I have 9 different makes of range brass, like IMI, PMC, and so on. so I’ll measure something other than Lake City…

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

You need to zero out your calipers and back out your seating die by a lot. You are seating way too deep. B looks way shorter then 2.26. I have loaded the 77gr Bergers before and I load thousands of 77gr SMK a year and they are not even close to being that short.

Those pictures are after I pushed the bullets against a wall. They were 2.26 after seating, and before I trashed them.

 

[Dave62677]

Just get the starline 223 brass, I do get .5 moa with it. Go for Lapua if you have extra coins.

 

[Snuby642]

I think you have a bad measurement somehow.

Are you sure your calipers are zeroed out?

The possibility of getting bad bullets from Berger is small but exists I suppose. Verify with other bullets or calipers.

I run 0.002 nt in ar's and no problems found. Using a Sinclair mandrell. It improved groups considerably.

You can shove by hand against wood and not move them.

At 0.005 it should take a hammer to move them, (dummy round no powder or primer)

You are annealing before sizing right?

Take one case don't anneal, prime or drop powder and see what happens.

A lee collet crimper might fix the problem with a slight crimp.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Measurements aren’t lining up, unless you turned your necks down to .010-.011.

A .012 neck wall (might be more. Lapua is usually in the .013 area for example) = .024

.024 + .224 = .0248 should be the minimum OD of a loaded round.

Calipers are not the tool for things like this. You need:

- Outside micrometer for bullet diameter and loaded round neck OD

- Inside ball micrometer for neck wall

- pin gauge for neck ID


Those tools will give you an actual measurement you can trust. Calipers have too many issues when trying to measure things like this.

 

[TheGerman]

Either your sizing die mandrel/button are way off, the sizing die is for the wrong caliber or your seating die is set up to seat them like 2 inches too deep.

Or what the guy above me said.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

I think you have a bad measurement somehow.

Are you sure your calipers are zeroed out?

The possibility of getting bad bullets from Berger is small but exists I suppose. Verify with other bullets or calipers.

I run 0.002 nt in ar's and no problems found. Using a Sinclair mandrell. It improved groups considerably.

You can shove by hand against wood and not move them.

At 0.005 it should take a hammer to move them, (dummy round no powder or primer)

You are annealing before sizing right?

Take one case don't anneal, prime or drop powder and see what happens.

A lee collet crimper might fix the problem with a slight crimp.

Great info on your experience with the force required. Thanks, I needed that.

I’m confident the calipers are accurate, but perplexed why the bullets are .223, so will contact Berger for their advice.

My plan for today is to do as you suggest; skip annealing.

Thanks again!

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Measurements aren’t lining up, unless you turned your necks down to .010-.011.

A .012 neck wall (might be more. Lapua is usually in the .013 area for example) = .024

.024 + .224 = .0248 should be the minimum OD of a loaded round.

Calipers are not the tool for things like this. You need:

- Outside micrometer for bullet diameter and loaded round neck OD

- Inside ball micrometer for neck wall

- pin gauge for neck ID


Those tools will give you an actual measurement you can trust. Calipers have too many issues when trying to measure things like this.

Cool. More tools to buy! Thank you.

 

[spife7980]

Those pictures are after I pushed the bullets against a wall. They were 2.26 after seating, and before I trashed them.

You dont need to trash them, just pull the bullet back out a bit. I used to load my 3006 with zero neck tension holding bullets after not annealing many times and thus stopped sizing appropriately. You just need to pull them back out a bit and they will go boom just fine.

Id like to see one seated to 2.26 but before you push on it. Whats its COAL and CBTO measurements? Then compare a spare bullet to the side of it and see where its actually located within the case. 2.260 sure does seem awfully short to me with a good heavy bullet, like most of the bearing surface is probably below the neck. I know thats saami ar mag length but saami is for suckers.


Your .246 outside loaded round diameter sounds alright to me. So its either your calipers are wrong or you dont have enough of the bullet getting acted on by the neck and you are able to easily overcome any resistence.

Also, how hard are you pushing on them? You can move any bullet with enough force.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

You dont need to trash them, just pull the bullet back out a bit. I used to load my 3006 with zero neck tension holding bullets after not annealing many times and thus stopped sizing appropriately. You just need to pull them back out a bit and they will go boom just fine.

Id like to see one seated to 2.26 but before you push on it. Whats its COAL and CBTO measurements? Then compare a spare bullet to the side of it and see where its actually located within the case. 2.260 sure does seem awfully short to me with a good heavy bullet, like most of the bearing surface is probably below the neck. I know thats saami ar mag length but saami is for suckers.


Your .246 outside loaded round diameter sounds alright to me. So its either your calipers are wrong or you dont have enough of the bullet getting acted on by the neck and you are able to easily overcome any resistence.

Also, how hard are you pushing on them? You can move any bullet with enough force.

The Berger 22101 77gr OTM was designed for AR15's with a magazine length of 2.26". I think this is an annealing issue and OP needs to try some different brass. I'm guessing his calipers aren't calibrated and are giving him some erroneous measurements for bullet OD, brass ID, and brass OD. Bullet to case mouth interference does not equal neck tension.

 

[Shoots 700's]

reloaded round on the left, and factory Lapua on the right. .250 neck on factory and .248 on the reload. My COAL on the reload in 2.255 or 1.851BTO. I do not crimp, bullets do not move at all.

 

[Snuby642]

I dont have any Berger 77's but those 77's are the tactical ment for ar's.

They make a VLD line in 70, 75, 80 grain. The ogive for those is not ment for ar's magazine length.

Is it remotely possible something got labled wrong ?

The Bergers I have used always weigh +/- 0.1gr on my modest scales at the very most. (For a refrance only)

So if your bullets weigh something other than 77 +/- 0.1gr that would be worth looking into.

 

[Mudflap621]

Since your using a Forster FL die with its guts removed I would size a piece of brass and than measure the neck, it should be undersized at this point. Next I would measure your expander mandrel it might also expanding your neck too much.

Edit: Saw that you ran without the expander mandrel but did you put the expander button back into the sizing die? If you didn't it seems like maybe the neck diameter on your full length die might be too large if its only sizing down to .005" neck tension without some type of expander.

Did you buy this die new or was it used? Its pretty popular on here to have the full length die honed for specific brass.

 

[Shoots 700's]

On another note, I wouldn't turn necks either. Not for a gasser.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

View attachment 7800639
reloaded round on the left, and factory Lapua on the right. .250 neck on factory and .248 on the reload. My COAL on the reload in 2.255 or 1.851BTO. I do not crimp, bullets do not move at all.

Excellent, you have the same box and part number I have. With further testing today what I have discovered is the bearing surface is .223 and flares near the boat tail to .224. this is known as the pressure ring and is intentional according to Berger support. If I seat long, thus the pressure ring is in the neck I have no problem other than the length of the bullet far exceeds the magazine size, so that’s no good.
Annealed or not makes no difference.
If I properly seat at 2.26 OAL, and load the dummy round in the rifle and send the bolt the home, the bullet creeps forward, so clearly not going to work.
bullet weighs 77 grains.
bullet length is 1.024
Thanks!

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

I dont have any Berger 77's but those 77's are the tactical ment for ar's.

They make a VLD line in 70, 75, 80 grain. The ogive for those is not ment for ar's magazine length.

Is it remotely possible something got labled wrong ?

The Bergers I have used always weigh +/- 0.1gr on my modest scales at the very most. (For a refrance only)

So if your bullets weigh something other than 77 +/- 0.1gr that would be worth looking into.

Thanks. I worked with Berger technical support today and everything checks out. 77 grain indeed. The problem is the bearing surface is. 223, and just before the boattail is the pressure ring which is. 224. If I seat it long, thus keeping the pressure ring in the neck of the brass no problem, bullet stays put, other than the OAL is way too long to fit in a magazine.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Since your using a Forster FL die with its guts removed I would size a piece of brass and than measure the neck, it should be undersized at this point. Next I would measure your expander mandrel it might also expanding your neck too much.

Edit: Saw that you ran without the expander mandrel but did you put the expander button back into the sizing die? If you didn't it seems like maybe the neck diameter on your full length die might be too large if its only sizing down to .005" neck tension without some type of expander.

Did you buy this die new or was it used? Its pretty popular on here to have the full length die honed for specific brass.

Thank you. It is a brand new sizing die. I’m going to write Forster technical support today. And, no I am not using the expander ball at all. I’ve added some other updates today. Here’s the summary of my learnings. Whether annealed or not I still have the same problem. Lake City or other brands still the same problem. I’ve discovered that the bearing surface of the bullet is .223 and only the pressure ring near the vote tale is .224. If I seat the bullet long keeping the pressure ring in the neck my neck tension problem is solved but I create a new problem that the bullet is too long to fit in the magazine. Even with the turning mantle, if I keep the pressure ring in the neck the bullet is solid.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

You dont need to trash them, just pull the bullet back out a bit. I used to load my 3006 with zero neck tension holding bullets after not annealing many times and thus stopped sizing appropriately. You just need to pull them back out a bit and they will go boom just fine.

Id like to see one seated to 2.26 but before you push on it. Whats its COAL and CBTO measurements? Then compare a spare bullet to the side of it and see where its actually located within the case. 2.260 sure does seem awfully short to me with a good heavy bullet, like most of the bearing surface is probably below the neck. I know thats saami ar mag length but saami is for suckers.


Your .246 outside loaded round diameter sounds alright to me. So its either your calipers are wrong or you dont have enough of the bullet getting acted on by the neck and you are able to easily overcome any resistence.

Also, how hard are you pushing on them? You can move any bullet with enough force.

I was able to extract the bullets. Here‘s the photo you requested. Left to right.
An unseated bullet. This gives you the visual of how deeply seated the bearing surface is in the case. The bearing surface measures .223. Just before the boat tail it flares to the pressure ring which is .224. More on that in a moment.
Next is a bullet seated at an overall length of 2.260. if I push on it, it retracts much like a turtle pulls its head into the shell.
The third is a factory black hills ammunition MK262 Mod 1-C with an overall length of 2.242.
Finally, a turning mandrel shell (looser!), with bullet seated long such that the bearing ring is in the neck. I can push on this one all I want and the bullet isn’t budging. And, of course it is so long, it will not fit in the magazine. OD measures .248.
Your how hard question… I am exerting reasonable force, not hulking it, and not being a wimp. Perhaps another testament is if I chamber a round seated at 2.26 and send the bolt home the bullet moves several thousands each time, so clearly the neck tension is too loose.
I think at this point I need to get some bullets other than Berger, and I ain’t happy about that!, and see what my experience is but I’m becoming quite confident the problem with their design that flares to the pressure ring isn’t going to work.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Personally I think you turned the necks to thin. I get very good neck tension at mag length seating I am reloading Remington brass and its not as thick as factory Lapua.

Take a few cases that have been fired, size them and seat a bullet. Don't use any that you have turned necks on your premed any other way.

 

[Shoots 700's]

BTW I took a fired round and just sized it.

ID was .219
OD was .243

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

I have ben turning my 223 and 5.56mm cases recently to clean them up. All the manufacturers I have, Remington, Winchester, Lake City, IMI, and IVI, have the same lopsided neck thickness. I just measured a few new Remington commercial cases and obtained around 0.0104” to 0.011” on the low end and 0.0123” to 0.129” on the high end. I have been cleaning up the necks by turning them down to 0.011”. I have not had any issues with neck tension. The three cases on the left are once fired Remington 223 cases that show the part of the neck that is below 0.011”. Next to them is another Remington case that has been turned to 0.011”. The case on the far right is a new unfired Remington 223 case that has not been turned.

 

[Snuby642]

Well that's a bummer on those 77g bullets. I was under the impression that they were for magazine lenght applications.

 

[ThingsThatGoBang]

Well that's a bummer on those 77g bullets. I was under the impression that they were for magazine lenght applications.

I spoke with Berger bullets a second time today just to verify that I am using the correct bullet and I was assured 100% that the bullet box shown early on in my post is indeed meant for AR15 magazine fed applications. It’s a mystery, and yet one more reason on my list of reasons why I drink. .
My next step is to get some 77 gr SMKs and see what happens.

 

[Shoots 700's]

I am trying to wrap my head around your issue. Are you saying that at 2.260 your bullet just falls into the case or under pressure?

A sierra 77 isn't going to be any different. I shoot both and have never had this issue.