So i am in the market for a new rifle and i have decided on the Remington 700 MilSpec 5R with 24" barrel and a Leupold Mark 4 on top. (Unless i find some serious information that changes my mind on the scope.) Now the only decision i have to make is do i want it in .223 or .308? I am building this gun to teach myself how to shoot long range. I have shot offhand at up to 300 + yards with a .270 Browning A-Bolt with a Leupold VX2 3x9x40 with good success and now i am looking to do some precision shooting at 500 to 1000 yards. I am thinking the .308 so i can have rifle to shoot 300 to 1000, however ive heard the .223 at 700 yards is a tougher shot! Any input would be great on the different calibers just keep in mind this is a learning gun for me i am really trying to get a solid technique, and teach myself windage and elevation. Thanks
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.223 or .308 that is the question!!!
- Thread starter Mr.B13
- Start date
Considering you have a 270, you probably hunt. Nothing like validating your skill at long range than to harvest game in the fall. The 308 will allow you to reach out and touch steel and animals as you see fit. Steel in the summer, game in the fall.
The 223 is fun, dont get me wrong, but you wont outgrow the 308 as quickly.
The 223 is fun, dont get me wrong, but you wont outgrow the 308 as quickly.
No comparison. The .223/5.56 is a much smaller lighter weight bullet. It can be a lot of fun to shoot and a real challenge. It can be shot to longer ranges with the right barrel and loads. In some states you cannot hunt large game with it. I have killed many a coyote with it though. It is a great round to 400 yards for most of us. I have a hard time going beyond 500 yards with wind. And where I live it is always windy. 5000 ft, high desert and surrounded by mountains and more desert = windy conditions every day.
The .308 is the most developed round for distance. All the data will support you. It will have much less problems in the wind.
You need both!
What do I know? I started reading here and went with a 6.5 x 06, I am going to try a wildcat for the first time. Barrel came in, gun is in the shop.
The .308 is the most developed round for distance. All the data will support you. It will have much less problems in the wind.
You need both!
What do I know? I started reading here and went with a 6.5 x 06, I am going to try a wildcat for the first time. Barrel came in, gun is in the shop.
yea, .308 for more than 600, unless the 223 has a faster twist, and it's a 1-9 in the 5r, which stinks.
If you are just wanting to learn how to shoot long range, I would get the 223 to nail down your technique, its a heck of a lot cheaper than learning with 308 ammo. Once you learn how to shoot the 223 out to 600+ really well, you can go up to a 308 and use same skills. If you want to just shoot out to 500 - 1000 yards then go with a 308.
Agreed, 223 out to 600 yards, 308 beyond. I used to shoot at Quantico Marine base (late 90's) and once a year they held a match that was the old NRA long range cross the course, 200, 300, 600, 1000 all with the same gun. I shot my match AR-15 there. The AR did fine at 600 but the best I could ever shoot at 1000 with it was a 180 (out of 200)
If the bulk of your shooting is <600yd, a 223 will be cheaper to feed and have way less recoil, allowing you to develop fundamentals and wind-reading skills. Plus, when you make a hit on a 1000yd plate (which plenty of folks do with 1:9 223s and 77gr bullets) almost nobody will believe you, since many folks seem to think the 223 simply stops moving after 300 yards or so.
And when you're ready to move beyond the 223, you can get something in a 6.5mm flavor for your long-range endeavors.
And when you're ready to move beyond the 223, you can get something in a 6.5mm flavor for your long-range endeavors.
+1 for the .308
If you have a place where you can shoot out to 1000 yards, go with the 308. You'll want to use every inch of the range sooner rather than later. Additionally, there's a lot more quality match grade ammo out there for the 308 than the 223.
As far as the scope goes, I'm a new found believer in first focal plane scopes with a "horus-like" reticle (H-58, H-59, G2DMR). IMHO, using holds instead of dialing up a new DOPE allows for much quicker follow up shots at different ranges and making corrections off of previous shots.
That's my $0.02. Good luck and good shooting.
If you have a place where you can shoot out to 1000 yards, go with the 308. You'll want to use every inch of the range sooner rather than later. Additionally, there's a lot more quality match grade ammo out there for the 308 than the 223.
As far as the scope goes, I'm a new found believer in first focal plane scopes with a "horus-like" reticle (H-58, H-59, G2DMR). IMHO, using holds instead of dialing up a new DOPE allows for much quicker follow up shots at different ranges and making corrections off of previous shots.
That's my $0.02. Good luck and good shooting.
No contest. For your stated purpose OF THE TWO .308.
Honestly, I'd recommend something in the 260-264 / 6.0 / 6.5mm range. Flatter shooting, and a little cheaper, as long as you reload.
And def a FFP scope.
Honestly, I'd recommend something in the 260-264 / 6.0 / 6.5mm range. Flatter shooting, and a little cheaper, as long as you reload.
And def a FFP scope.
I'll vote for the 223, one with a fast barrel, say 1:7. You'll be able to shoot more, much more and the slugs you can pop out the 1:7, 90 gr. Bergers for instance, will do 1000 yds.
I have both, and it is an obsession. The .308 is a tough shot @ 1000 yards if there is any wind. It can and is done all the time, but I would say that more than likely you will find yourself inside of 1000 yards and not going home frustrated. Also, you will NOT be $200.00 lighter in the wallet while winging .308 lead out to 1000 yards and having it get pushed all over the place. It has taken me a year of shooting every other weekend to hit the 1000 yard steel target at my range 3 times in a row for a verified 18" group in 15 mile an hour winds and an 11 degree uphill angled shot. I have hit the target many times, but never was able to back up the shot. last weekend during a 5 shot string, I hit the first shot, missed the 2nd and hit the next 3 in a row. 4 shots, 1000 yards, uphill and just under 18" group on a 36" steel target. It was a really good day for me. I have been shooting long range (beyond 400 yards) with a bolt gun for almost exactly a year. I don't hunt.
If you do it in steps, I would suggest going with the .308 at first, and NOT spending the extra money on a 5R, but rather getting one of the more affordable flavors with a 24" barrel, honing your skills between 600 and 800 yards, then send the barreled action off to Chad and John @ Long Rifles and having it trued up and hang a 6CM barrel on it and start shooting beyond 800, 1000, and even 1200 yards. The 6CM is a .243 parent case so no need for a new action, and if you get a barrel vise and action wrench, you can do a switch barrel set up and swap it back out to .308 right in the parking lot at the range. Yes the 6CM is a "wildcat" cartridge from what I gather, but it is reported to be a laser pointer when properly set up.
My next barrel purchase will be a 6CM and I plan on using one of my .308's as a donor.
Good luck with your decision brother. I am a newb, and NOT a guy with a crap load of experience, but I have spent a crap load of money going after the 1000 yard game, and this is what I have learned so far. My mission is to shrink that 1000 yard group down under 10" before the summer is out. I shoot Hornady 178 AMAX, 178 BTHP and Nosler 175 BTHP. I also have hit the 1000 yard steel with 155 Scenars a few times. I can pepper ALL of the steel 800 yards and in with 155 Matchkings (and all of the bullets listed) at will. It truly is an obsession.......... for me.
If you do it in steps, I would suggest going with the .308 at first, and NOT spending the extra money on a 5R, but rather getting one of the more affordable flavors with a 24" barrel, honing your skills between 600 and 800 yards, then send the barreled action off to Chad and John @ Long Rifles and having it trued up and hang a 6CM barrel on it and start shooting beyond 800, 1000, and even 1200 yards. The 6CM is a .243 parent case so no need for a new action, and if you get a barrel vise and action wrench, you can do a switch barrel set up and swap it back out to .308 right in the parking lot at the range. Yes the 6CM is a "wildcat" cartridge from what I gather, but it is reported to be a laser pointer when properly set up.
My next barrel purchase will be a 6CM and I plan on using one of my .308's as a donor.
Good luck with your decision brother. I am a newb, and NOT a guy with a crap load of experience, but I have spent a crap load of money going after the 1000 yard game, and this is what I have learned so far. My mission is to shrink that 1000 yard group down under 10" before the summer is out. I shoot Hornady 178 AMAX, 178 BTHP and Nosler 175 BTHP. I also have hit the 1000 yard steel with 155 Scenars a few times. I can pepper ALL of the steel 800 yards and in with 155 Matchkings (and all of the bullets listed) at will. It truly is an obsession.......... for me.
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Thanks guys for your all the input! My decision hasn't gotten any easier to say the least!!! But let me reiterate that this rifle decision is purely a training gun. I am buying this to teach myself technique and to learn windage. i know the 1/9 twist sucks in most peoples opinion but in my opinion if I become skillful with what some think is inadaquate equipment then imagine what i will be able to accomplish with a custom rifle. My choice on a Remington is simple because its cheap enough that im not scared to chuck it up in the lathe and mill and true it up myself and if i screw it up i can find a replacement part simple!
I dont reload myself so i am at the mercy of a man i know who is willing to reload my brass for me thus the .308 or .223 bc he has those dies already. But i do appreciate the mention of other calibers i will definatly research them for the future. i live in arkansas and east texas so yes i do have some windy days but most of the time there are pine trees blocking it. also humidity is in the 70-90% range here depending on the time of year how much role will that play on accuracy?
As i stated earlier thank you for all the input please keep it coming bc i love hearing peoples opinions.
I dont reload myself so i am at the mercy of a man i know who is willing to reload my brass for me thus the .308 or .223 bc he has those dies already. But i do appreciate the mention of other calibers i will definatly research them for the future. i live in arkansas and east texas so yes i do have some windy days but most of the time there are pine trees blocking it. also humidity is in the 70-90% range here depending on the time of year how much role will that play on accuracy?
As i stated earlier thank you for all the input please keep it coming bc i love hearing peoples opinions.
Jamie Dodson, Wolf Precision, is a champion long range shooter and precision gunmaker, swears by .223. The bullet selection nowadays is amazing. As mentioned above 90 gr Bergers just to name one excellent bullet. Did I mention no recoil. I have a .223 based on a 700 action with a Krieger medium palma barrel strapped on to an AICS and this thing has zero recoil. I mean my 8 year old girl routinely hits 4 inch steel targets at 200 yards with no difficulty whatsoever.
As far as the .223 goes, yes they're fun to shoot, less expensive ammo, and little recoil. However, getting one to shoot anything over a 77 gr SMK is going to require a faster twist barrel (ranging from 8-twist down to as fast as 6.5-twist depending on the projectile) and a much longer chamber. Sure, you can set a rifle up to shoot 90s, but that rifle will be unlikely to shoot anything else very well. If you really want to shoot that far with a .223, you could go with a setup that will handle the 80/80.5/82 gr Bergers and still do ok with the 77 gr factory ammo for everyday plinking. Loaded properly, those projectiles will get you to 1000 yd, although wind resistance will be less than with the 90s.
For the rifle you mentioned, that means a fair amount of modification (new barrel and chamber). If you're unwilling to go that route, the .308 is the better choice. You'll have a much better selection of commercial ammo or reloading components to choose from, and you can reach out to 1000 yd without a doubt. Yes, the ammo will be more expensive and the recoil stronger, but that is the price of shooting a .308 out to that distance. As others have mentioned, there are different calibers you could choose from that would be a better blend of low recoil and distance, but you specifically stated .223 or .308, so that's where you're at with those two. Best of luck with your choice.
For the rifle you mentioned, that means a fair amount of modification (new barrel and chamber). If you're unwilling to go that route, the .308 is the better choice. You'll have a much better selection of commercial ammo or reloading components to choose from, and you can reach out to 1000 yd without a doubt. Yes, the ammo will be more expensive and the recoil stronger, but that is the price of shooting a .308 out to that distance. As others have mentioned, there are different calibers you could choose from that would be a better blend of low recoil and distance, but you specifically stated .223 or .308, so that's where you're at with those two. Best of luck with your choice.
You will need a knowledgeable mentor. It will be an incredibly frustrating row to hoe if you try to do this by yourself.
You don't need a custom rifle. But you do need an accurate rifle. Otherwise, your already steep learning curve will get impossibly hard when you have no clue if the shot you "shanked" was really you, the gun, or the ammo.
Budget for and make plans to learn to do this.
You have far bigger (and more basic) things to worry about now than the effect of humidity on a bullet's trajectory.
A 1:9 twist 223 at 1000 yards is very unreliable as far as hits are concerned. It takes at least a 1:8 twist and a 75amax to make reliable hits at 1k and even then they can be hard to spot and hear if you're shooting steel. A 308 even with a 155-168gr rocks steel pretty good at 1k and beyond.
IMO 308 is the ideal cartridge to get started in long range shooting if you plan to shoot much beyond 600 yards. If you reload there are other good choices as well but you're almost forced to reload due to cost and availability of ammo for the others (6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm). If you doubt you'll shoot much beyond 600 yards 223 isn't a bad choice but it runs out of steam really quick passed the 600 mark with bullets like the 77SMK and if you don't load quality match ammo costs basically the same as it does for 308 for some reason.
IMO 308 is the ideal cartridge to get started in long range shooting if you plan to shoot much beyond 600 yards. If you reload there are other good choices as well but you're almost forced to reload due to cost and availability of ammo for the others (6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm). If you doubt you'll shoot much beyond 600 yards 223 isn't a bad choice but it runs out of steam really quick passed the 600 mark with bullets like the 77SMK and if you don't load quality match ammo costs basically the same as it does for 308 for some reason.
Mr.B13 I was reading above post by gstaylorg, and I have to say it makes lots of sense. The rifles Jamie rents for his classes are .223. I think I remember him telling me they are 26 inch barrel with 1/7 twist and shoot a 75 gr bullet (?Amax vs BTHP). The twist rate on my rifle is 1/7.7. I shoot 75 gr Amax. I only go out to 600 yards. It is an almost exact replica of a rifle one of the local shooting gurus says he routinely hits the 1000 yard targets with. To me, if you're new to shooting you want a rifle that is relatively less expensive to shoot, with low recoil. Learn to hit targets at 500, then move out to 600. give Jamie a call: Wolf Precision - Home
i have a 5r .308 w/ a 24" barrel. it looks nothing like what it did when i first got it. as i developed as a shooter, i replaced the bolt knob, timney trigger, mcmillan stock, leather shooters sling, ffp scope. i love the 5r and would buy again in a sec. from a business perspective, i could take that 5r and sell it in 24 hours here on the hide and recoup most of my money. win win all around, they have some of the best resell value of all the guns out there. i think if you are trying to learn long range, .308 is the golden honey to learn with. you learn recoil managment, wind, trigger control, body position, and you can do it in a round that has a LOT of data to go with it.
good luck and put a lock on your wallet, as this hobby is freakin way too expensive
night eagle
good luck and put a lock on your wallet, as this hobby is freakin way too expensive
night eagle
Night eagle I bet that's a sweet gun however I'm not big into interchanging parts on any o my toys. I give the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt they build every part of that gun exactly for that gun so that's good enough for me. No disrespect to you sir that's just the way I was raised. Also my reseach has shown the mil spec 5r is just the civilian version of the m24 that the military uses so I guess if it works for them it works for me! I'm really looking forward to getting into this sport I'm ready for the day I start punching paper at 1000 but I know it's a long way from here to there!
Yes sir I hunt! I've been in the woods since age 4 and have actually killed atleaste one deer a year since then. I love my .270 I can consistently touch 3 shot groups at 300 yards with it and have no bipod and a leupold vx2 scope with federal premium ammo. But now I'm into bow hunting for game and just like to shoot for the hell of it and its getting old shooting through the mouth of a coke bottle and spent 22 hulls and ars are just Boreing to me. I mean anybody can hit a target with 30 shots not many ppl can touch 3 shots at 1000
Having worked in manufacturing for nearly 20 years now, I don't share your confidence.
There are many, many good reasons why factory built products are not optimized. Assuming they are is a big mistake.
But to each his own.
You’re going to want the 308 version for 1000y shooting.
I have the 223 5r and while it is a great gun its difficult to see and also hear impacts at anything over 700y. As has already been posted the 1-9 twist is not fast enough to take the rifle to 1000 with any consistency. While I have had luck on a few occasions in the more generous chamber of my 223 tactical running 75 berger vld’s to 1000, this gun is a no go. It does shoot well with 69 and 77 grain SMK’s and CC’s and pointing those helps if you are wanting to ride the edge of the distance envelope... I wish Remington would have used the same chamber reamer as the tactical and spun this one at a 1-7 twist... it would be perfect in my eye’s but they didn’t... Oh well.
Don’t get sucked into believing this is the civilian M24, it shares the same factory name, land/groove design and twist rate in the bore and that’s it. If you want a M24 you can purchase one... and I believe you may even be able to build one for about the same cost as a Remington while being a step ahead of their quality control.
You can also save some cash and start with a SPS model titled Varmint, Tactical or AAC in 308, drop it in a stock that you like and head to the range. They shot too.
With favorable winds...
same load at 900
Note, those are my best to date with that rifle... not what I can pull off on demand.
See my thread
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...846-308-remington-tactical-work-progress.html
I have the 223 5r and while it is a great gun its difficult to see and also hear impacts at anything over 700y. As has already been posted the 1-9 twist is not fast enough to take the rifle to 1000 with any consistency. While I have had luck on a few occasions in the more generous chamber of my 223 tactical running 75 berger vld’s to 1000, this gun is a no go. It does shoot well with 69 and 77 grain SMK’s and CC’s and pointing those helps if you are wanting to ride the edge of the distance envelope... I wish Remington would have used the same chamber reamer as the tactical and spun this one at a 1-7 twist... it would be perfect in my eye’s but they didn’t... Oh well.
Don’t get sucked into believing this is the civilian M24, it shares the same factory name, land/groove design and twist rate in the bore and that’s it. If you want a M24 you can purchase one... and I believe you may even be able to build one for about the same cost as a Remington while being a step ahead of their quality control.
You can also save some cash and start with a SPS model titled Varmint, Tactical or AAC in 308, drop it in a stock that you like and head to the range. They shot too.
With favorable winds...
same load at 900
Note, those are my best to date with that rifle... not what I can pull off on demand.
See my thread
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...846-308-remington-tactical-work-progress.html
One option to consider is a 223 (light recoil and less expensive ammo means more shots downrange), and re-scope your 270 for extended distances. A 135 smk at 3000 fps MV will still be moving ~1400 fps at 1k yards. A $300 fixed-power SWFA SS scope would make your 270 a viable long-range tool.
If you shoot your .270 at 300yds. as you say then you appear as one who has the basic marksmanship skill to extend that range. The only difference being more wind effect at distance. as far as a trainer rifle, a lot of folks use .22's for training. Most people today have an AR platform already ( don't know if you do or not, didn't say). But considering your ability with the .270, If it were me I would go with the .308 as you will probably be getting into competitions in the near future and even tho' a .223 will get you to 1k you will want to be competitive and I can promise you 95% of the field will be using .308's at 1k. Just dwell on it or, what the heck buy both!!!
everybody is entitled to their opinion. i can only say that my 5r gave me plenety of room to learn on, and as i developed as a shooter, i put better parts in it. that remmy trigger is ok, however if you want consistant .5-.75 moa groupings, xmark is not consistant enough for that. can it be done...sure absoultly it can be done...but not consistantly. when i found that i was shooting better than the trigger would let me shoot, i switched to timney and overall its way more consistant. same with the stock, as i grew as a shooter, it was only natural for me to switch stocks...mcmillin is WAY more comfy and fits me as a shooter much better.
oh and fyi, the only thing close to mil spec on the 5r is the barrel, rest is just civy parts and pieces.
night eagle
oh and fyi, the only thing close to mil spec on the 5r is the barrel, rest is just civy parts and pieces.
night eagle
If your current rifle will touch 3 shots at 300 yards, why not sink the money for a new rifle into ammunition for your current rifle, or a new scope for your current rifle, or a reloading setup, etc? Add to that the current lack of availability of 308 and 223 ammunition (while the shelves are packed with 270win) and it is a no-brainer to me what I would do.
Buy the Rem 700 AAC-SD that comes in the flimsy Hogue stock and try hitting steel out to 1000. You'd have a better chance of throwing the bullet. Anything that is mass produced will never be as accurate as something that is made by hand. It's fine to start out on a stock rifle but if you want to get to the next level in shooting, upgrades are a necessity. I'm not saying that statement hold true for everybody and every stock gun but if any important component of a rifle is out of speck, your chances of learning how to do things correctly will be limited because you will be constantly faced with problems that you just can't learn how to do better at. If your barrel is off your learning curve is fucked until you get that barrel straightened. If your stock is always hitting the barrel during every shot your learning curve is fucked until you get that barrel free floated and so on... Nobody needs a $5000 gun to be good in this sport but you absolutely need an accurate gun.
The stock can be quite important. Remington has used HS Precision stocks for a long time and you can drop a new rifle, without the stock, into one too. Just like they do.
Massave improvement.
Massave improvement.
Drifter i would but my .270 holds close to my heart the way it is. My dad gave it to me and set it up like that so thats how its going to stay and that will be the gun i teach my kids to hunt with unit i buy them their own rifle. even though id love to i would kick myself in the ass for doing anything to that gun.
How about a 22-250 using the 90gr Berger bullet? This bullet has a high G1 BC=.551. The 22-250 has the case capacity to drive the bullet fast. I used ballistic calculator. If you can get bullet to go 3000 fps. It'll drop about 26 MOA (200 yd zero) at 1000 yards. If you introduce a 10 mph, 90 degree cross wind, it'll drift about 6.8 MOA at 1000 yards as compared to 175 Berger long range match at 2700 fps that will give you a drop of 34 MOA and drift of 88 MOA respectively under same circumstances. This is all arm-chair ballistics, but I introduce it because I am a recoil wimp and I intuitively believe a long, skinny bullet with low recoil cartridge is the way to go.
I like the .223 if it is set up to shoot the heavier bullets like the 75 or 80 A-max. We use them at the school as our issued rifle and have great success. The last class this past weekend was hitting everything out to 700with pretty good ease and made some really nice hits at 900 and 1000. If you relaod I would go .223
Good luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision
Bat Tactical Actions
All Hogs Go to Heaven
Good luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision
Bat Tactical Actions
All Hogs Go to Heaven
For the price of a 5R Milspec you can get two Savage 11 Series Hog Hunters, one in .223 and the other in .308. The stocks are crap but they both have 20" Target barrels with factory threads for a comp and the Accutrigger. Both are identical in every way except caliber. Put matching mid range optics on both and train away. I picked up a .308 HH as my base rifle online for $500. You can restock both rifles for another $500. Best part is the Savages are very accurate right out of the box and and upgrading them is easy. A barrel swap out is simple on a Savage so if you later decide to switch to .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmore on the .308 or .204 Ruger or 6.5 Grendel on the .223 all you need is a barrel swap. My HH shot sub MOA at 100 out of the box with the cheap tupperware stock. My B&C Medalist Tactical I got from Stocky's for $240 will be here tomorrow. I have hopes of .5 or better with the new stock. I like it so much I'm thinking of getting the .223 version to do just this. I have a Seekins Precision long range AR that is lights out but I'm limited to mag lenth loading so I can't shoot the really good heavies like the Berger and Sierra 80's. For under 1K I can set up a nice rifle for this.
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