.223 Rounds for AR15

[KM1]

Ammunition is becoming VERY difficult to find...in most calibers. I have a new PWS MK116 Mod 2 rifle. I have yet to take it to the range and test it out let alone zero the optics on it...so I thought I might post here about ammunition.

If someone here has the same rifle...or another PWS rifle of similar length and build....I would like to know what ammo you have found works best with this rifle. Main purpose is self defense....and am looking for most failure free, reliable ammo with the best accuracy I can get out of a round like that.

I have purchased 200 rnds of Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 223 Rem. 62gr GDSP (24445SP) and wanted to know if anyone has used this in their AR, especially a PWS AR and how well it worked. Right now this round is OUT OF STOCK everywhere.

I have also come across another well known, quality round that I might be able to get a hold of....the Federal LE Tactical 223 Rem. 62gr bonded soft point (LE223T3) and wanted to know the same....how well this ammo worked in AR's.

Comparing the two rounds with each other would also be helpful...especially with how they work in the PWS rifles (reliability and accuracy combined)

Plus, if I zero my optics with one of these rounds.....can I expect it to hold the same zero with the other? That is one of the reasons I am hesitating on buying a number of different rounds for self defense....would like to stay consistent, and with the best round for the rifle.

HOWEVER, ammo is becoming so scarce....I am not sure it is a good idea to wait. Thus, my questions.

Thanks for any information you might give.

​

 

[Molon]

The terminal ballistic properties of the 62 grain Gold Dot are the same as the 64 grain Gold Dot.



Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Speer has expanded its line of Gold Dot ammunition to include rifle ammunition in 223 Remington. The ammunition examined for this post is loaded with a 64 grain bonded soft point bullet that has less exposed lead at the meplat than Federal’s 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet that is used in their LE223T2 load.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a boat-tail and a cannelure. This load is charged with a ball powder that according to Speer is a “flash suppressed propellant.” The primers are sealed and crimped in place, however, there is no sealant at the case mouth.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a nominal length of 0.825” and a specific gravity of 10.0. A barrel with a 1:9” twist should stabilize it quite well.

The 64 grain Gold Dot load was chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel, a 16” Colt light-weight barrel and a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. All of the barrels have chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7” twists. 10-shot strings of the load were fired over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.

Accuracy testing was conducted following my usual protocol of firing 10-shot groups from a concrete bench at a distance of 100 yards using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15. This barrel has a 1:7.7” twist. The free-float rail of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest and the PRS stock was stabilized in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. Sighting was performed using a Leupold Competition Series scope with a mirage shade. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.

Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:

1.11”
0.91”
1.30”

for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”. I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.

Velocity Update for the 64 grain Gold Dot

Manufacturers typically use bolt-action “test barrels” to obtain their advertised velocities for their ammunition. These test barrels are usually 24” long and often have minimum spec SAAMI chambers. These factors combine to give ammunition higher advertised velocities than the velocities that we actually obtain from our AR-15s. Also, due to its gas operating system, the AR-15 looses 20 fps or more of velocity compared to an equivalent barrel without a gas system.

As an example, Hornady advertises the velocity of their 55 grain TAP load as 3240 fps. When fired from an AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel with a 5.56 Match Chamber (and of course a gas operating system) the muzzle velocity of the 55 grain TAP load was 3167 fps, for a difference of 73 fps from the advertised velocity.

Speer’s website reports the muzzle velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot load as 3000 fps. When fired from my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15, the 64 grain Gold Dot load had a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps, for a difference of 88 fps from the advertised velocity.

Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot

Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.

62 grain TBBC versus 64 grain Gold Dot

Federal Tactical 62 grain Bonded SP, LE223T3

The Federal Tactical 62 grain load uses a bonded soft point bullet with a cannelure (62 grain TBBC). (All the better to shoot your auto-glass with, my dear!) There is a scant amount of lacquer sealant at the case mouth (mostly in the cannelure.) The primers are also sealed and crimped. As you can see from the picture above, the components come loaded in a shiny nickel plated Lake City case.

This load had a muzzle velocity of 2978 fps. The smallest 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 2.13” and a mean radius of 0.54”.

....



Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot

The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.

Atmospheric Conditions

Temperature: 73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure: 29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity: 62%
Altitude: 950 feet above sea level



Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.

Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.

10-shot groups were fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist. The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.

....

 

[SBRSarge]

Molon, as always, has sage advice and has wrung out the loads in proper fashion. Heed his imput.

The LE223T3 has consistantly been one of the top two or so performers in the FBI ballistic testing. It is used exclusively at both my current and former departments.

Bear in mind they are designed for optimum terminal performance, not for precision match-grade accuracy. In my testing, they don’t group as well as the match stuff. But that isn’t what they are meant for.

At the distances I shoot (typically 200 yds or less) there has not been enough difference in POI with these loads to cause a miss at a combat-type target. I don’t have the targets anymore to refer to, but I think these impacted within 1-1.5 MOA of each other.

Lay in as much of either/both you can afford and be confident that the round will do its job.

Edit to add: Include the Ranger 64 gr load in your searches. It is the second FBI tested, approved and purchased load along with the LE223T3.

 

[KM1]

The terminal ballistic properties of the 62 grain Gold Dot are the same as the 64 grain Gold Dot.



Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Speer has expanded its line of Gold Dot ammunition to include rifle ammunition in 223 Remington. The ammunition examined for this post is loaded with a 64 grain bonded soft point bullet that has less exposed lead at the meplat than Federal’s 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet that is used in their LE223T2 load.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a boat-tail and a cannelure. This load is charged with a ball powder that according to Speer is a “flash suppressed propellant.” The primers are sealed and crimped in place, however, there is no sealant at the case mouth.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a nominal length of 0.825” and a specific gravity of 10.0. A barrel with a 1:9” twist should stabilize it quite well.

The 64 grain Gold Dot load was chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel, a 16” Colt light-weight barrel and a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. All of the barrels have chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7” twists. 10-shot strings of the load were fired over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.

Accuracy testing was conducted following my usual protocol of firing 10-shot groups from a concrete bench at a distance of 100 yards using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15. This barrel has a 1:7.7” twist. The free-float rail of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest and the PRS stock was stabilized in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. Sighting was performed using a Leupold Competition Series scope with a mirage shade. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.

Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:

1.11”
0.91”
1.30”

for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”. I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.

Velocity Update for the 64 grain Gold Dot

Manufacturers typically use bolt-action “test barrels” to obtain their advertised velocities for their ammunition. These test barrels are usually 24” long and often have minimum spec SAAMI chambers. These factors combine to give ammunition higher advertised velocities than the velocities that we actually obtain from our AR-15s. Also, due to its gas operating system, the AR-15 looses 20 fps or more of velocity compared to an equivalent barrel without a gas system.

As an example, Hornady advertises the velocity of their 55 grain TAP load as 3240 fps. When fired from an AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel with a 5.56 Match Chamber (and of course a gas operating system) the muzzle velocity of the 55 grain TAP load was 3167 fps, for a difference of 73 fps from the advertised velocity.

Speer’s website reports the muzzle velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot load as 3000 fps. When fired from my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15, the 64 grain Gold Dot load had a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps, for a difference of 88 fps from the advertised velocity.

Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot

Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.

62 grain TBBC versus 64 grain Gold Dot

Federal Tactical 62 grain Bonded SP, LE223T3

The Federal Tactical 62 grain load uses a bonded soft point bullet with a cannelure (62 grain TBBC). (All the better to shoot your auto-glass with, my dear!) There is a scant amount of lacquer sealant at the case mouth (mostly in the cannelure.) The primers are also sealed and crimped. As you can see from the picture above, the components come loaded in a shiny nickel plated Lake City case.

This load had a muzzle velocity of 2978 fps. The smallest 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 2.13” and a mean radius of 0.54”.

....



Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot

The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.

Atmospheric Conditions

Temperature: 73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure: 29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity: 62%
Altitude: 950 feet above sea level



Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.

Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.

10-shot groups were fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist. The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.

....

Thanks Molon....I had seen this some time ago and had forgotten about it. VERY HELPFUL!!!

 

[Molon]

Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B Ammunition

Today, we have a wider selection of quality self-defense ammunition for our AR-15s to choose from than ever before. The construction and function of these modern self-defense loads is not limited by the archaic confines proffered by the Hague Conventions and far surpasses the consistency of terminal ballistic properties of “old school” loads such as M193 and M855.

There are two modern schools of thought regarding the selection of the type of projectile to use in a self-defense load; the first preferring a fragmenting, heavy (75-77 grain) OTM type bullet and the second opting for an expanding “blind-to-barriers” bullet. The top performers in the fragmenting, heavy OTM type category are Hornady’s 5.56mm 75 grain TAP T2, the Nosler 77 grain Custom Competition and the new Black Hills Ammunition load utilizing the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing.


A plethora of 5.56mm/223 Remington loads utilizing expanding barrier-blind projectiles have come to the market in the last several years. One of the top performing loads in this category is currently issued by the FBI; the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B. Terminal ballistic testing conducted by Dr. G.K. Roberts using the scientific standard of properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin has shown that this load has an average penetration depth of 17.1” in bare gelatin with a recovered diameter of 0.46” (when fired from a 16" barrel.) After passing through an intermediate barrier of automobile safety glass, the load has an average penetration depth of 13.6” with a recovered diameter of 0.35” (again from a 16” barrel.)

The Winchester RA556B load is topped with the Nosler 64 grain Bonded Solid Base projectile. This bullet has a copper base that comprises almost one-third of the length of the projectile. Obviously, the lead core is bonded to the copper jacket. The bullet has a cannelure and a “Protected Point” design for reliable feeding in AR-15s

Winchester’s RA556B ammunition is loaded in WCC 5.56mm brass that has the annealing iris still visible. The primers are crimped and sealed. The case mouth has a heavy collet crimp and “black Lucas” sealant. The cartridge is charged with “ball” powder.

A ballistic table on the back of the RA556B ammunition box claims that this load has a muzzle velocity of 2935 FPS, but unfortunately there is no mention of the barrel length used for this figure. The standard barrel length for assessing the velocity of 5.56mm ammunition is a 20” barrel. A review of Winchester’s law enforcement ammunition catalog revealed that the above figure was indeed derived from a 20” barrel with a NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.

Speed is fine . . .

I chronographed the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B ammunition from a semi-automatic AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a 1:7” twist.

Chronographing was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. The Oehler 35P chronograph is actually two chronographs in one package that takes two separate chronograph readings for each shot and then has its onboard computer analyze the data to determine if there is any statistically significant difference between the two readings. If there is, the chronograph “flags” the shot to let you know that the data is invalid. There was no invalid data flagged during this testing.

The velocity stated below is the muzzle velocity as calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. The string of fire consisted of 10 rounds over the chronograph.

Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of “chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.

Atmospheric conditions

Temperature: 76 degrees F
Humidity: 45%
Barometric pressure: 29.96 inches of Hg
Elevation: 950 feet above sea level


The muzzle velocity for the 10-shot string of the Winchester RA556B ammunition fired from the 20” Colt barrel was 2976 FPS with a standard deviation of 20 FPS and a coefficient of variation of 0.67%.

For those of you who might not be familiar with the coefficient of variation (CV), it is the standard deviation, divided by the mean (average) muzzle velocity and then multiplied by 100 and expressed as a percentage. It allows for the comparison of the uniformity of velocity between loads in different velocity spectrums; e.g. 77 grain loads running around 2,650 fps compared to 55 grain loads running around 3,250 fps.

For comparison, the mil-spec for M193 allows for a coefficient of variation of approximately 1.2%, while one of my best 77 grain OTM hand-loads, with a muzzle velocity of 2639 PFS and a standard deviation of 4 FPS, has a coefficient of variation of 0.15%.

Accuracy is final . . .

I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B ammunition following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any group-reduction techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots).

The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a control group was fired from the test-rifle used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel. Pictures of shot-groups are posted for documentation.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.

The Wind Probe.

The test vehicle for this evaluation was one of my semi-automatic precision AR-15s with a 20” stainless-steel Lothar Walther barrel. The barrel has a 223 Wylde chamber with a 1:8” twist. Prior to firing the Winchester RA556B ammunition, I fired a 10-shot control group using match-grade hand-loads topped with the Sierra 55 grain BlitzKing. That group had an extreme spread of 0.635”.

Next, three 10-shot groups of the Winchester RA556B load were fired in a row with the resulting extreme spreads:

2.03”
1.77”
1.90”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.90”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 30-shot composite group was 0.66”.




The smallest 10-shot group . . .

The 30-shot composite group . . .

No canines were harmed during the testing of this ammunition.

…..

 

[KM1]

Molon, as always, has sage advice and has wrung out the loads in proper fashion.Heed his imput.

The LE223T3 has consistantly been one of ther top two or so performers in the FBI ballistic testing. It is used exclusively at both my current and former departments.

Bear in mind they are designed for optimum terminal performance, nit for precision match-grade accuracy. In my testing, they don’t group as well as the match stuff. But that isn’t what they are meant for.

At the distances I shoot (typically 200 yds or less) there has not been enough difference in POI with these loads to cause a miss at a combat-type target. I don’t have the targets anymore to refer to, but I think these impacted within 1-1.5 MOA of each other.

Lay in as much of either/both you can afford and be confident that the round will do its job.

Edit to add: Include the Ranger 64 gr load in your searches. It is the second FBI tested, approved and purchased load along with the LE223T3.

Thanks....that is what I needed. BOTH comments helped. Will go ahead and purchase the Federal rounds knowing that the differences are so minimal, with self defense in mind, they would be negligible for my purpose.

One other thing SBRSarge....have you used the Speer Gold Dot??? Did you like the round yourself....or, if you HAD to choose between the two....would you pick the Federal as a first choice? Or is it six of one, half a dozen of the other...basically, doesn't matter.

 

[Jigstick]

A shitty bullet well placed will perform better than a good bullet shot poorly

 

[SBRSarge]

Thanks....that is what I needed. BOTH comments helped. Will go ahead and purchase the Federal rounds knowing that the differences are so minimal, with self defense in mind, they would be negligible for my purpose.

One other thing SBRSarge....have you used the Speer Gold Dot??? Did you like the round yourself....or, if you HAD to choose between the two....would you pick the Federal as a first choice? Or is it six of one, half a dozen of the other...basically, doesn't matter.

I’ve not used the Gold Dot loads, but they seem to be quite popular. I’ve used the LE223T3 for 15 years or so.

Years ago, (2006, 2007 I think) I spoke with a company rep from Federal/Speer inquiring about the Gold Dot rifle load since we use the Gold Dot pistol load. Back then he told me that the LE223T3 bonded was made to be barrier blind, to hold together, retain weight, expand reliably and penetrate the desired amount. He said the Gold Dot was made for less penetration and more violent, rapid expansion. I’ve no idea if that is still the case. From Molon’s first post it seems that the Gold Dots penetrate well now, so maybe it changed or maybe I got bad info back then.

Were I to switch rounds, it would be to get some tighter grouping for a Designated Marksman application. To that end, I have shot a good deal of Barnes bullets loaded by Asym, Barnes and Black Hills. The Asym (a 70 gr Barnes bullet load) didn’t seem to group as well as the 62 gr or 50 gr Barnes or Black Hills loads in my rifles, but still were tighter on average than the T3. Some time in the future, I may well recommend one of these, probably either the 62gr Barnes from Barnes or Black Hills, or the Black Hills Optimized 50 gr load. Right now, we have a good stock of the T3 and simply can’t get any of the Barnes rounds so no change is in sight!

The rifles I have used for comparing the loads are my 16” 1:7 Wilson barreled build, a 10.5” 1:7 Noveske SBR and our department’s 16” overall (10” or so of barrel, the balance suppressor) Suppressed Weapon Systems rifles.

Another plus for the T3 load is the nickel plated case. It is readily apparent whether a magazine is loaded with the duty round with the nickel case or a practice load with the brass colored case.

Jigstick hit the nail on the head. It is mostly about putting the bullet where it needs to be and letting it do its job. And maybe sending a few of the bullets buddies to help would never hurt either!

I think you are spot on with your plan to lay in a stock of the T3 to compliment your stock of Gold Dots. Shoot both and see how the POIs compare. For 100-200 yards, you should be close. You can always choose one for your base-line zero and make notes on scope changes for the other load if there is much difference, or if you want to reach out a bit longer.

 

[KM1]

I’ve not used the Gold Dot loads, but they seem to be quite popular. I’ve used the LE223T3 for 15 years or so.

Years ago, (2006, 2007 I think) I spoke with a company rep from Federal/Speer inquiring about the Gold Dot rifle load since we use the Gold Dot pistol load. Back then he told me that the LE223T3 bonded was made to be barrier blind, to hold together, retain weight, expand reliably and penetrate the desired amount. He said the Gold Dot was made for less penetration and more violent, rapid expansion. I’ve no idea if that is still the case. From Molon’s first post it seems that the Gold Dots penetrate well now, so maybe it changed or maybe I got bad info back then.

Were I to switch rounds, it would be to get some tighter grouping for a Designated Marksman application. To that end, I have shot a good deal of Barnes bullets loaded by Asym, Barnes and Black Hills. The Asym (a 70 gr Barnes bullet load) didn’t seem to group as well as the 62 gr or 50 gr Barnes or Black Hills loads in my rifles, but still were tighter on average than the T3. Some time in the future, I may well recommend one of these, probably either the 62gr Barnes from Barnes or Black Hills, or the Black Hills Optimized 50 gr load. Right now, we have a good stock of the T3 and simply can’t get any of the Barnes rounds so no change is in sight!

The rifles I have used for comparing the loads are my 16” 1:7 Wilson barreled build, a 10.5” 1:7 Noveske SBR and our department’s 16” overall (10” or so of barrel, the balance suppressor) Suppressed Weapon Systems rifles.

Another plus for the T3 load is the nickel plated case. It is readily apparent whether a magazine is loaded with the duty round with the nickel case or a practice load with the brass colored case.

Jigstick hit the nail on the head. It is mostly about putting the bullet where it needs to be and letting it do its job. And maybe sending a few of the bullets buddies to help would never hurt either!

I think you are spot on with your plan to lay in a stock of the T3 to compliment your stock of Gold Dots. Shoot both and see how the POIs compare. For 100-200 yards, you should be close. You can always choose one for your base-line zero and make notes on scope changes for the other load if there is much difference, or if you want to reach out a bit longer.

Thanks so much for the additional information. VERY HELPFUL. I have ordered more rounds and will do as you suggest.

My rifle is 1:8 twist Wylde...PWS MK116 Mod 2. It is SAID, by PWS, and guaranteed by them, to have 1MOA capability with Match Grade Ammo. I have no idea whether this will hold up to scrutiny or not...but I was told by them that if that does not hold up with my rifle they want it back to see why. Me, personally, I just want the round to go exactly where I point it (with normal deviations one might expect).

I have yet to even test fire the rifle...this pandemic thing is putting a real damper on range time. Might not get out until Spring....sadly. I am hoping at that time to zero my optics and had decided on the two rounds, for self defense, that I mentioned above after all the reading I had done. At the time, in October, the Gold Dot was all I could get....now that's gone and I found a place that had some Federal....thus, all my questions above.

Thanks for all the information.....GREAT HELP!!!

 

[SBRSarge]

Glad to help you spend your money!

Spending money vicariously is easier on the checkbook, and on spousal relations!

WIFE- acronym for Woman Irritated by Financial Expenditures

ETA: Don’t expect match ammo accuracy with the Gold Dot, T3 nor Ranger. If you get 1.5 moa call it a victory, but expect 2moa-ish. Still well under MOM, ‘Minute of Mope’. I might be dating myself. Does anyone call crooks ‘mopes’ anymore?

 

[KM1]

Glad to help you spend your money!

Spending money vicariously is easier on the checkbook, and on spousal relations!

WIFE- acronym for Woman Irritated by Financial Expenditures

ETA: Don’t expect match ammo accuracy with the Gold Dot, T3 nor Ranger. If you get 1.5 moa call it a victory, but expect 2moa-ish. Still well under MOM, ‘Minute of Mope’. I might be dating myself. Does anyone call crooks ‘mopes’ anymore?

LOL....You'll have to define "Minute of Mope" for me....I know MOA, but that is it!!!

 

[Im2bent]

Saw the title of the thread and came in to see where this was headed. The question asked was whether the ammo called out would be suitable for self defense. To me self defense scenarios would be a home invasion scenario. Range to perp room distance. Do we really need to know the molecular weight of the copper in the jacketing? Does it have to be .25 moa ammo? I mean realistically speaking how many people have been killed in the history of firearms with muskets? If it goes boom and the guy is at self defense distance are we concerned with differences in poi for a 61gn vs 64 gn bullet? Do you even need to worry about sights to hit a guy 5 feet away? And if he is 200yards away is it still self defense? Look at that kid in Wisconsin he was face to face with his aggressors and is facing murder charges. Not trying to be a dick just trying to keep it real. Am I off base? Give me a sec to don my lvl 4 vest before you open fire.

 

[KM1]

Saw the title of the thread and came in to see where this was headed. The question asked was whether the ammo called out would be suitable for self defense. To me self defense scenarios would be a home invasion scenario. Range to perp room distance. Do we really need to know the molecular weight of the copper in the jacketing? Does it have to be .25 moa ammo? I mean realistically speaking how many people have been killed in the history of firearms with muskets? If it goes boom and the guy is at self defense distance are we concerned with differences in poi for a 61gn vs 64 gn bullet? Do you even need to worry about sights to hit a guy 5 feet away? And if he is 200yards away is it still self defense? Look at that kid in Wisconsin he was face to face with his aggressors and is facing murder charges. Not trying to be a dick just trying to keep it real. Am I off base? Give me a sec to don my lvl 4 vest before you open fire.

Actually....my question was in reference to which of these two rounds would be best....or is the differences negligible (which seems to be the case). Additionally, whether zeroing my rifle for one of these rounds....would the difference with the other round be negligible also (which also seems to be the case), or would each round have to be zeroed separately. Me, personally, just want to know that the bullet will go exactly (within reasonable deviations) where the barrel is pointed. I actually already knew both rounds were solid for my purposes...but didn't want to spend lots of $$$$ on a round that might not work well in my rifle.

Where certainly, with most self defense situations within a home, my questions above don't really hold a lot of relevance (depending on the circumstance...there are cases it might make a significant difference). Typically...I'd probably reach for my handgun inside a home anyway before my rifle. However, in today's times, I'm not sure it is a good idea to simply limit ones definition of self-defense to just distances that occur inside a house....keeping in mind that one would certainly NEED sound justification for self-defense beyond those distances. I would agree...it's going oing to be a very rare circumstance that one will be trying to defend oneself, or their home from like 50yds away...LOL

 

[81STFACP]

Those Sierra 77 TMKs I handloaded pushed by 25.0 grains of N540 are devastating. Shot a deer, it went in, no bone hit, entrance is a 22 hole, it fragmented as it went through the lungs. The cup and left over core embedded on the other side. No exit hole.

Buck dropped, no twitch. But, you never know how animals react to devastating wounds.

Just one data point. I have seen some gel test on the errornet that sort of mimics what I saw inside the deer.

Rifle is 18 inch MK12 Mod0 suppressed, range 100 yards.

 

[SBRSarge]

LOL....You'll have to define "Minute of Mope" for me....I know MOA, but that is it!!!

You can substitute ‘Minute of Felon’ for ’Minute of Mope’

Mope is a term used years ago (like, when I was in the academy) to describe a crook.

 

[momo1344]

I know I’m coming in way late to the conversation, but I had this exact same question a few days ago and I did a ton of digging and I was more interested in ballistic performance between the 2 rounds than accuracy.

For anybody still wondering here are the results from the FBI gel testing of the .223 Federal and Speer loads. Federal loads covered are the LE223T3 and LE223T1 as well as the Tactical TRU, Speer loads covered are the Gold Dots in 55, 62, and 75gr. States testing was done with a 16” AR with a 1:7 twist.

FBI Test Data

 

[jevan126]

I have been using Underwood Ammo for many years now, it is consistent, reliable and accurate. I buy by the Case but have never once been unhappy with this Ammo.