223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

[Northman]

Say.. in a SHTF, Zombie Invasion or 3WW... for tactical shooting out to 600 yards, wich would you prefer?

I know the 308 usually is king here.. but out to 600yards what would you prefer, and why?

Pros and cons of the 223?

 

[MAX100]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Are the Zombies Mini Me size Zombies or are they big Zombies.


GC

 

[rijndael]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

I suppose it depends on the platform you're looking at, AR or bolt?

I've had a .223 w/ pointed 90 grain JLKs keep up with my .308 out to 1K.

 

[scullti]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

You can get a .223 0ut to 1K? That's pretty impressive.

 

[Snow Dog]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

The trouble with your question is that each of the 3 scenarios you mention presents a different tactical problem requiring a unique solution.

For instance, everyone knows that real Zombies can be put to their final final resting place with a well placed head shot. All that is needed for this is a 10/22 with lots of ammo and preloaded mags.

For "3WW" a nuke proof bunker and a ten year supply of tuna is your best bet. Don't forget the can opener.

For SHTF you just need a pack of moist towelettes

Having said all that, I like a 12GA for household pests and 223 to control the critters in the yard.

 

[Guest]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Zombies????????

I echo the following sentiments on zombies:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1053237&page=1

Personally, I can't give you a clear answer without more information.

How much opposition/how many targets?

Are the targets armored and use cover?

Is this an LEO type situation where I am responsible for ALL of my rounds, or a Mil type where we chalk it up to collateral damage?

 

[dmg308]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Remember train hard fight easy keep in practice.

http://www.freegames14.com/The-Last-Stand-2.game6192.html

 

[Northman]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Hehehe... you guys really took my question literaly

A easier scenario ( 600 yards ):

The russkies are attacking in mass, and you got a bolt rifle.. 223 or 308.

Or.. same scenario:

BUT this time in urban envirorment? 223 or 308


Great replies this far though

 

[Snow Dog]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

AR10 w/16in barrel, S&B Short Dot
More worried about the in-close russkies than those at 600

 

[Pat M]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

OK, i'll play
Zombies have to be hit in the head only, .223 is fine (load weight and avalability)

Russkies any hit and possible armor, .308 (penetration factor)

Suppressor = must have

Shotgun or 10/22 for Zombies trying to climb the tree i'm in

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Going toe-to-toe with an organized military force attacking in mass? Take your pick, you'll be dead rather soon either way, urban or rural.

Best survival tactic will be to AVOID gunfights whenever possible.

For a survival/foraging/personal defensive weapon, either would work. A decent .22 would be most useful.

 

[TresMon]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Would you like a straight answer now?

in your scenario, give me an AR in .223 any day. Here's why:

1. Unless your Bill Gates, etc. you only have a limited budget to stock up on ammo. Compare prices on 100 each bullets; 75 or 77 grain bullets in .224's Verses 168 or 175 .308's. It's a no brainer. +1 for .223

2. According to my loads, my ballistic programs etc. .223 long range loads drop & drift the same as, or actually a little less than .308 long range loads. [EDIT: that is actually when running 80g VLD bullets, which will not mag feed]

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">+2 for the .223</span>

3. recoil: generally speaking, the lesser recoil, the more fluid the follow up shot or the engaging of the next target.

+3 for .223

4. as mentioned previously, you can carry a whole lot more .223 ammo over .308, ounce for ounce.

+4 for the .223

5. rate of fire coupled with economy:
A nice AR will shoot sub .5 moa. A really nice AR will shoot .3 moa. Sure the same can be said for .308 repeaters, but .308 repeaters are ridiculously more expensive.

+5 for the .223

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing the .308 has over the .223 is down range energy. In terms of on target energy, the little .223 runs out of gas before the heavier .308. But, in your 600 or less yard scenario, the .223 still has sufficient energy to get the job done.

somewhere (approximatly) around the 750 - 800 yard mark and beyond, a guy would be better off with the .308...

{according to current real world operators, as spoke of in the book "TriggerMen" -A lot of guys are carrying AR's for engagments inside 800 yds. now that they have the Black Hills 77grn loads and leaving their m24's behind.}

Understand my views/statments are with the (.223)Hornady 75bthp, or Sierra & Berger 77grn. bullets. Lesser/lighter .224's don't cut it.

FWIW.
T

 

[Northman]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

TresMon: very good answer!


Now, in my case it would be bolt rifle. But shooting out to 600 yards.. or shooting in an urban setting, a 223 seems ( with 60-80 grain bullets ) like a better option.

 

[Guest]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Answer these questions, an choose for yourself.
(1) Is your target in the open all the time?
(2) Will your round have enough ass to punch threw an tag your enemy, behind a 12" tree, or threw a Buick?
(3) Can your round of choice be had with other than hunting or FMJBT bullets.

 

[Northman]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Valid questions Gunfighter!

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

If you put aside the "scenarios", I'll take the 308 over the 223 every time for a 600 bolt action battle rifle. There's no comparison in regards to killing power and barrier penetration.

 

[TresMon]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Well to put aside scenarios would be outside the scope of the original authors question.

and true, a .223 does not compare "in killing power and penetration"

But that's quite narrow. If I only gots $400 to stock up on ammo, and can get three times as many .223 rounds as I can .308, I'd sure give up some killing power and penetration in favor of having a lot more ammuniton to keep me in the fight longer, etc. If I'm 67 years old when it hits, I can haul more .223 ammo and deal with the overall firing/recoil impulse better. It's a big can of worms.

But, don't take me wrong, a .308 would be a fine choice as well, these views are just the way this man slices up the original proposed situation. And my last name is not Cooper, Ayoob, Wheeler, or Schwarzkopf.

 

[ker2222]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

check out the leupold m3 knobs for the 308 168gr and the 223 77gr.........stunningly similair out to 600.

We all worry about zombies and each man must prepare to defend his hearth and home however best he can.

But, besides zombies.......I have accurate rigs in both 223 and 308. 90% of my shooting is some type of longer range hunting (open prairie varmints/game) and is within the 600yrd margin outlined.

For prairie dogs I shoot 223....................just as accurate, just as much (or little) elevation and windage expertise needed as 308, less costly, and more devestating on the smaller game especially inside 200yrds.

For deer/antelope I shoot the 308...........need the knock down power.

for zombies.........I would go with 223.....but really only cause i have more 223 ammo and I like the rifle a bit better!

 

[Guest]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

If I was limited to 400 bucks I'd be looking at a Russian 91/30 or M44 with lots of 7.62X54R. She has as much ass as the .308 an std ball, plus very, very,. very,... special ammo, is out there as well.

Got to love the Russian thinking when it comes to their speciality ammo

.
Check the great selection----> http://www.mosinnagant.net/t3p.asp

 

[Mike]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was limited to 400 bucks I'd be looking at a Russian 91/30 or M44 with lots of 7.62X54R. She has as much ass as the .308 an std ball, plus very, very,. very,... special ammo, is out there as well.

Got to love the Russian thinking when it comes to their speciality ammo

. </div></div>

This is a smart man here.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

600 yards tactical shooting-223

600 yards strategic shooting-308

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well to put aside scenarios would be outside the scope of the original authors question.

</div></div>

True. But if pitted against the russian army, I couldn't recommend one over the other, at least not with a straight face.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Going toe-to-toe with an organized military force attacking in mass? Take your pick, you'll be dead rather soon either way, urban or rural.

Best survival tactic will be to AVOID gunfights whenever possible.

For a survival/foraging/personal defensive weapon, either would work. A decent .22 would be most useful. </div></div>

Good reply and I agree.

But if I had to picking one over the other I'd go 308, because it can do anything the 223 can and then some.

 

[deliciouspizza]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

TresMon hit the nail on the head. Out to 600 yards, you should be using an AR in .223. For a higher volume of targets in closer proximity the higher rate of fire and smaller cartridge allow for controlled rapid fire. 75-77 grain projectiles are plenty to do the job out to 600 yards and if you miss on the first shot you can immediately send a follow up.

I read Trigger Men too and I was surprised how they relied on their ARs for the majority of their engagements. When you look at the nature of sniping in an urban combat area though the answer why becomes pretty obvious. At least 8 out of 10 of their engagements involve surprise attacking clusters of 3-4+ militants within a few hundred yards of their position and they need to take them down quickly because the urban landscape has so much immediate cover available they risk losing their targets or worse, letting them get dug in and counter-attack.

Of course, past 600 yards the .308 is king.

 

[sinister]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

This is among the Army's small arms hot topics. Training and Doctrine Command just hosted a big Designated Marksman and Sniper conference last month at Benning.

The first step to solving a problem is to define it.

The American Soldier is trained to fire his rifle or carbine to 300 Meters. The basic qualification table does not require any 300 Meter kills to qualify (a trainee can qualify without hitting ANY targets past 200 yards).

His rifle has a maximum iron sight effective range of 550 Meters (500 Meters if he has an M4).

Snipers are only in Infantry and Special Forces formations (and only 38% of those in the Leg Army are school-trained and qualified) so the widespread belief is anything past 200-300 Meters has to be shot with something bigger/full automatic.

There are 80,000+ M14s ready to issue at Anniston. The M14 is not trained in the Army school system (including at the Small Arms Repairman Course). Army Materiel Command fills requests for rifles as the G3 and G4 task. Parts come from "Controlled Exchange" (cannibalization of other weapons).

The M110 Sniper Rifle has quality control problems and is only issued to snipers.

TRADOC asked for a demo comparing three systems: the AMU-modified DM M16A4 with an ACOG shooting 77s; the M14; and the M110, all at 600 yards. The two shooters were an E7 National Champion who shot the M14 since he was maybe 12 and has shot the M16 since 1994-1995, and an E5 who was the National JROTC air rifle champion who is also a national champion with the M16.

When the smoke cleared the M16 won hands down in both accuracy and rate of fire at 600. When the AMU armorers showed how quick it is to modify and maintain the DM M16 the Blinding Flash of the Obvious "Duh" light came on.

There is no question the 175-grain Match King wins the displacement and penetration argument, but that's a moot point if the Soldier can't hit his target. With a 30-shot mag the DM can adjust his point-of-aim on the fly.

There is no question the 7.62 rules when you're pointing a precision sniper rifle, expecting an 80%+ first shot hit at 800 yards.

The Army once published a manual whose title came from the quote, "Firepower isn't the number of shots fired, firepower is bullets hitting targets. Only hits count."

=================

"There are only two kinds of Soldier on the battlefield -- marksmen...and targets."

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

The accuracy and rate of fire results of two two world-class shooters, as measured on a square range, has zero correlation to the results that will happen with regular soldiers in battle.

It sounds like the Army's root problem is a training issue, not a hardware issue. You just stated that regular soldiers do not have to demonstrate marksmanship proficiency past 200 yards to be given a "go" grade. Given that standard, the headstamp is moot.

 

[sinister]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Precisely.

Does it matter if he's armed with an M4 or M14? I think not.

At the lowest common denominator whether the private is an infantryman or not he has to hit first. If he can hit his target then we get him to the ability of his technology.

A village idiot armed with a $16,000 weapons system can get lucky, but he probably won't be consistent.

Some of my older mentors shook their heads when they told me of Africans guarding airfields with rusty British-made AI sniper rifles.

 

[orkan]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

Easy.

1 AR-15 lower setup with good trigger.
1 Spikes Tactical .22LR upper, suppressed
1 Accurate .223 Upper, suppressed
1 Accurate 50 Beowulf or .458Socom upper, suppressed.
1 .50BMG upper.

A bullet for every situation.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

You left out the 6.5 Grendel upper...

 

[desertHK]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Say.. in a SHTF, Zombie Invasion or 3WW... for tactical shooting out to 600 yards, wich would you prefer?

I know the 308 usually is king here.. but out to 600yards what would you prefer, and why?

Pros and cons of the 223? </div></div>

I am going to catch some shit for this, but FWIW, I cam across this article. Thought it was interesting reading. Don't agree wit it. Just know that it can be done. Having said that, I still pick the 308 over the 223 at 600 yards at any time.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php


I'll bring the popcorn and lawn chair now.

 

[Guest]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The accuracy and rate of fire results of two two world-class shooters, as measured on a square range, has zero correlation to the results that will happen with regular soldiers in battle.

It sounds like the Army's root problem is a training issue, not a hardware issue. You just stated that regular soldiers do not have to demonstrate marksmanship proficiency past 200 yards to be given a "go" grade. Given that standard, the headstamp is moot.
</div></div>
+1

If the prime mover is lacking from the gate, it's down hill from there. Heaven forbid we spend money on training, that may lesson the 300K rds(?) per kill.
I wonder, how much does it cost to mfg. an transport that amount of ammo to the troops in the field, vs training one to shoot? Sounds like the 3rd burst mod, wasn't the answer,... either.
As for a 3+ bad guy rush on your play ground, tactics run with the weapon,... not the other way around. Speed on the follow up is great, but if you planned it right, it's not going to be a fair fight, from the get go.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get a .223 0ut to 1K? That's pretty impressive.</div></div>

Check out a 1000 yard service rifle match. ARs (223) has taken over that game.

 

[Guest]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

And, therein is the problem, what may work great on a one way, may or may not, on a two way, with the same results.

 

[TresMon]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..


Well, at least I birthed "straight answers" for the author!!!

Go me!

 

[scullti]

Re: 223 vs 308 to 600 yards..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get a .223 0ut to 1K? That's pretty impressive.</div></div>

Check out a 1000 yard service rifle match. ARs (223) has taken over that game.




</div></div>

Wow. Obviously I still have a lot to learn.