.224 Grendel vs .224 Valkyrie

[K_4c]

Big fan of the Grendel case for what it is... I've been running the 6.5 and 6 Grendel with great results. That being said, I recently picked up a .224 Grendel barrel specifically to compare to the .224 Valkyrie. However in my tests, I won't be running the 90 smks, as they require a 1:6.5 twist. Instead I'll shoot the more abundant 75 eld's with a g1 of .467. At .19 cents a bullet and the performance this cartridges offers, I'm excited to see the outcome. I don't see a problem hitting 3000 FPS out of a 20" tube running RL15 or h4895.

Certainly make for a helluva coyote cartridge...

 

[lennyo3034]

Putting the 90 SMK specs into bergers twist rate calculator says they are fully stabilized at 40 degrees and sea level with a 1-7 twist @ 2700. I've heard other stories saying a 1-6.5 is required though.

That being said, running the numbers with a 90 SMK @2700 vs a 80 ELD @ 2820, the advantage seems to be with the 80.

I went with the Valkyrie because it had a factory ammo load.

 

[K_4c]

Essentially if I can hit 3k with 75 amaxs, I've got a .223ai in a gas gun. I'll take that.

 

[Potss]

Excited for the results of your testing! I'd consider the 70gr Nosler RDF as well, G7 of .21 and can be pushed harder.

 

[Ledzep]

I run 90gr Berger vlds at 3000fps in a 1:8 twist 22-250. Stable to 1400+. I think a 1:7 would be fine for 2700-2800fps.

Berger's calculator is very conservative in my experience. I run with it if it gives me a 1.2 or better.

 

[K_4c]

I run 90gr Berger vlds at 3000fps in a 1:8 twist 22-250. Stable to 1400+. I think a 1:7 would be fine for 2700-2800fps.

Berger's calculator is very conservative in my experience. I run with it if it gives me a 1.2 or better.

I may pick up a box of the 90 smks just to see MV.

 

[bakerp30]

Ever get any results on how the 224 Grendel barrel specifically to compared to the .224 Valkyrie?

 

[K_4c]

.224 Grendel has a bit more ass. I'm driving 80 eld's at 3060 FPS with no pressure and 75 eld's to 3085.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

.224 Grendel has a bit more ass. I'm driving 80 eld's at 3060 FPS with no pressure and 75 eld's to 3085.

Is that in actually better, or on paper it looks better. It seems until we get reloaders actually running the same bullets in comparable guns/barrels we won't really know for sure. The Grendel does have more case capacity, right? It has a bigger base, so for any length it will inherently have an advantage in capacity. I know the Valkyrie uses the 6.8 bolt and mags- was this done just in the name of expediency and simplicity? I forgot what the Grendel uses.

There are no commercial Grendel loads either, are there?

Grendel is funner to say and is alot easier to spell.

 

[Potss]

Looking forward to your results OP.

 

[kombayotch]

I've been thinking about doing a 224AR T40 or 224 Fat Rat to shoot the new 95 SMKs. Got the ogive measurements from Sierra and the Valkyrie comes up about 0.02" shy (nominal - could be more depending on the lot) in an AR mag. Ogive will be below the case mouth.

 

[miawade1]

Big fan of the Grendel case for what it is... I've been running the 6.5 and 6 Grendel with great results. That being said, I recently picked up a .224 Grendel barrel specifically to compare to the .224 Valkyrie. However in my tests, I won't be running the 90 smks, as they require a 1:6.5 twist. Instead I'll shoot the more abundant 75 eld's with a g1 of .467. At .19 cents a bullet and the performance this cartridges offers, I'm excited to see the outcome. I don't see a problem hitting 3000 FPS out of a 20" tube running RL15 or h4895.

Certainly make for a helluva coyote cartridge...

Big fan of the Grendel case for what it is... I've been running the 6.5 and 6 Grendel with great results. That being said, I recently picked up a .224 Grendel barrel specifically to compare to the .224 Valkyrie. However in my tests, I won't be running the 90 smks, as they require a 1:6.5 twist. Instead I'll shoot the more abundant 75 eld's with a g1 of .467. At .19 cents a bullet and the performance this cartridges offers, I'm excited to see the outcome. I don't see a problem hitting 3000 FPS out of a 20" tube running RL15 or h4895.

Certainly make for a helluva coyote cartridge...

I just built one and we are running 75gr at 3040 to 3060 fps out of a 20" AR platform. We are going to play with different powders but prelims were RL15 and Varget. RL 15 was dirty and the Varget was cleaner and preformed a little better. again we are going to play with some different powders. You are right its 223AI velocity out of a gas gun I'll take it all day long.

 

[derek1s]

What else is there to report on for the .224 Grendel?

 

[flyer]

In an AR, the Grendle case isn't supported well at it's base and the bolt lugs aren't as strong due to the deep bolt face.

Valkyrie beats it there if you want to reload hot in an AR.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

For whatever reason all the bolt breakage stories have slowed way down in the last few years. I'm not sure why, perhaps people aren't hot rodding as hard or manufacturers are doing something different. Or the .125 bolt face depth is stronger than the .136, who knows, but the number of Grendel guns out there has grown disproportionately to the decrease in bolt horror stories.

 

[flyer]

Wolf started making ammo a while back...

 

[Ledzep]

I think the early bolt breakages were due to certain manufacturers making 58-60ksi ammo for a system (AR15) that can only really handle 50-55ksi consistently.

Something like F=P*A... Increase the A on the bolt face and keep the pressure the same and load on the lugs increases.

 

[brcook03]

Wolf started making ammo a while back...

For 22 Grendel?

 

[flyer]

For 6.5, probably why not so many people are breaking bolts...

 

[Unknown]

I built and used 4 different Grendels. The early bolt breakage problems were the result of a number of items. During my 3rd Grendel build I spoke with a well known builder of custom gas guns, and he said that many of the bolt breakage issues were the result of not truing up the face of the upper receiver where the barrel extension seats. His theory was that he found about 80% of the forged uppers weren't really square and true where the barrel extension mated to the upper. This put uneven pressure on bolt lugs making breakage more of a possibility. With the 5.56 round, there is enough extra material around the bolt lugs to take up the uneven pressure, but with the Grendel, it makes a difference.

So, I began facing off the upper receivers to true them up, and never had another broken bolt lug. Of course, advancement in heat treat and steel used in the bolts helped too. In my last two Grendels, I never had any more issues with cracked or broken bolt lugs. Previously, it was usually a lug closest to the extractor that would crack or break.

It takes me longer to get out the tool to face the uppers than it does to actually face them to true.

 

[Big Moose]

I think the problems with Grendel bolts was that the very early ones were made for 7.62x39s. One of my Grendel bolts failed, but the newer bolts especially from companies like JP are machined out of much better steel; there's certainly no problem with them now. I've looked at Robert Whitley's 6mm Turbo 40 Improved, and have come close to buying an upper from him, I think it would be ideal for PRS gas-gun. Does anyone make a hydroforming die or offer hydroforming services for the 6mm T40i, because fire forming is a pain. I know there's a company doing it for the Dasher.

 

[LRRPF52]

I think the early bolt breakages were due to certain manufacturers making 58-60ksi ammo for a system (AR15) that can only really handle 50-55ksi consistently.

Something like F=P*A... Increase the A on the bolt face and keep the pressure the same and load on the lugs increases.

It was mostly M&A Parts imitation bolts made from 8620, incorrectly heat-treated, didn't even take the time to figure out what an actual Grendel bolt is.

Last Bill A. was at AA before going to HK, he said their High Pressure Test rig (for destructive testing, not non-destructive testing) was still going strong after many years dating back to the start. I think he used a process similar to the Canadians on how to make AR15 bolts, as opposed to the way the US military TDP calls for them to be made (HPT non-destructive on all of them, then MPI).

He radiused the lug roots to compensate for the deeper bolt face (which is there because of extractor lip thickness and Grendel rims), added that depth to the tail of the bolt so standard firing pins won't protrude excessively from the FP aperture, and did a bunch of other little things to design a long-lasting bolt.

The material for the bolts is a very specific 9310, and heat treating has to be controlled well like any other AR15 bolt. As long as the vendor has good processes and competent engineering, with a thorough TQM process, the bolts are fine.

I'm on at least 7 personal Grendels now, with who knows how many I've helped with their own builds, and have only broken 5.56 bolts to-date.

I have bolts from:

AA regular and hard use
PF/Maxim nitrided
Group Buy Monster bolts
LaRue

JP also makes a great bolt. I have friends that own several of them and love them.

The Grendel case in the AR15 works at lower chamber pressure, while increasing propellant volume and using the 30˚ shoulder for efficient and consistent burning of the propellant. Since the case is so short, you get a lot of room to work with in the AR15 magazine that just isn't there with most other cases.

I'll have a 6mm AR soon after the group buy goes through with PF. We're doing Criterion pipes with the White Oak Armament competition extension and thread pattern for the tenon.

I would love to see an LMT Enhanced 6.5 Grendel bolt made from AerMet for that project, with the .136" depth/2.810" bolt OAL.

 

[Big Moose]

So Bill moved to HK? I wondered where he went. All of mine are JP builds, but have always been intrigued by the T40i.

 

[LRRPF52]

So Bill moved to HK? I wondered where he went. All of mine are JP builds, but have always been intrigued by the T40i.

Yes, last year at least. HK must have made him an offer he couldn't refuse, and he's doing what he really loves to do testing different weapons according to NATO, SAAMI, CIP, US DoD, and other agency requirements.

 

[Big Moose]

Don't White Oak Armament make an AR15 bolt and extension for the 6mm BRX?

 

[lennyo3034]

It was mostly M&A Parts imitation bolts made from 8620, incorrectly heat-treated, didn't even take the time to figure out what an actual Grendel bolt is.

Last Bill A. was at AA before going to HK, he said their High Pressure Test rig (for destructive testing, not non-destructive testing) was still going strong after many years dating back to the start. I think he used a process similar to the Canadians on how to make AR15 bolts, as opposed to the way the US military TDP calls for them to be made (HPT non-destructive on all of them, then MPI).

He radiused the lug roots to compensate for the deeper bolt face (which is there because of extractor lip thickness and Grendel rims), added that depth to the tail of the bolt so standard firing pins won't protrude excessively from the FP aperture, and did a bunch of other little things to design a long-lasting bolt.

The material for the bolts is a very specific 9310, and heat treating has to be controlled well like any other AR15 bolt. As long as the vendor has good processes and competent engineering, with a thorough TQM process, the bolts are fine.

I'm on at least 7 personal Grendels now, with who knows how many I've helped with their own builds, and have only broken 5.56 bolts to-date.

I have bolts from:

AA regular and hard use
PF/Maxim nitrided
Group Buy Monster bolts
LaRue

JP also makes a great bolt. I have friends that own several of them and love them.

The Grendel case in the AR15 works at lower chamber pressure, while increasing propellant volume and using the 30˚ shoulder for efficient and consistent burning of the propellant. Since the case is so short, you get a lot of room to work with in the AR15 magazine that just isn't there with most other cases.

I'll have a 6mm AR soon after the group buy goes through with PF. We're doing Criterion pipes with the White Oak Armament competition extension and thread pattern for the tenon.

I would love to see an LMT Enhanced 6.5 Grendel bolt made from AerMet for that project, with the .136" depth/2.810" bolt OAL.

Do you know which of those bolts are HP tested?

I hate 100% HP testing due to the impact to fatigue life. Unnecessary with modern manufacturing. We conduct high pressure testing but consider it a destruct test.

 

[Alaska_Guy]

3000fps with a 20" barrel should be easily obtainable. A few days ago I was able to load up to 27.4 grains of powder with RL-15 in the Valkyrie using 75 grain ELD's. I do not own a chrono, but I have heard reports that 25.8-25.9 grains is around 2900fps with 75 grain ELD's. I am pretty sure with 2 grains more of powder its well over 3000fps. I would NOT go past 27.4 as primers were flattening. COAL was 2.298-2.300, long enough to stuff them into a magazine but feed reliably. Group size from 26.2 - 27.4 grains stayed the same around 1.5-2.00 worst case using 5 shot groups and .80 MOA average. After cleaning the starline brass and putting in new primers in the 27.2 and 27.4 they are starting to get a little loose. I wouldn't recommend going above 27 grains if you plan to reload the brass more than a few times.

 

[Khavic]

For my Valkyrie I switched to Aliant Varmint powder and run 25gr behind 82gr Bergers. Much better accuracy than anything previously tested and can reliably load them on the 650. Varget, RL15 and IMR 3031 would not give even close to reliable charge weights on the 650. Going to test Accurate 2015 next. Might try H380 too, but I think it may be too dirty for a gas gun.

 

[Alaska_Guy]

As I was reloading 40 rounds on my single stage yesterday using my RCBS 1500 charge master and as I was doing it I was thinking... "Man it would be nice if I setup my dillon 550 to load these".

 

[LRRPF52]

Do you know which of those bolts are HP tested?

I hate 100% HP testing due to the impact to fatigue life. Unnecessary with modern manufacturing. We conduct high pressure testing but consider it a destruct test.

I don't think any of the AA bolts that make it to market are HP tested, only the small percentage that are tested in each batch as part of destructive testing. Canadians and KAC do the same thing, and experience far superior bolt life.

The ones that are HP tested are then ground to expose cross-sectional area, immersed in resin, and analyzed for grain structure as part of destructive testing. HPT is probably the worst thing you could do to a production bolt, for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Yondering]

3000fps with a 20" barrel should be easily obtainable. A few days ago I was able to load up to 27.4 grains of powder with RL-15 in the Valkyrie using 75 grain ELD's. I do not own a chrono, but I have heard reports that 25.8-25.9 grains is around 2900fps with 75 grain ELD's. I am pretty sure with 2 grains more of powder its well over 3000fps. I would NOT go past 27.4 as primers were flattening. COAL was 2.298-2.300, long enough to stuff them into a magazine but feed reliably. Group size from 26.2 - 27.4 grains stayed the same around 1.5-2.00 worst case using 5 shot groups and .80 MOA average. After cleaning the starline brass and putting in new primers in the 27.2 and 27.4 they are starting to get a little loose. I wouldn't recommend going above 27 grains if you plan to reload the brass more than a few times.

No offense but if you're not shooting over a chrono, none of those guesses about velocity means anything. As most here know, results can be very different than expected when you actually start measuring velocity.

 

[Khavic]

Anyone making a .224 SPC? 6.8 necked down.

 

[Alaska_Guy]

No offense but if you're not shooting over a chrono, none of those guesses about velocity means anything. As most here know, results can be very different than expected when you actually start measuring velocity.

No offense taken. I understand its the internet and you don't know me and people like to second guess everyone, so here is a thread on reloading the valkyrie on this same website. Go to post #26 and look at his 25.8gr load... It's 2900fps and he is using an 18" barrel.

I loaded the same projectile in a 20" barrel to 27.4 grains. If someone wants to send me a chronny I will be more than happy to test.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie.6874330/

And here is a group I shot with 25.9grains of RL-15 yesterday at 320 yards. So not only is it close to 3000fps, but its VERY accurate in my book.

http://www.224valkyrieforum.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1373#msg1373

 

[TonyTheTiger]

His 18" barrel may be way faster than your 20". Happens all the time.

320 yards isn't really far enough to accurately true up dope based off of estimated velocities.

Not trying to sound negative but nothing you've said really means anything till you actually know the velocity.

 

[flyer]

Anyone making a .224 SPC? 6.8 necked down.

Dude, that's what .224 Valkyrie is.

 

[Khavic]

Dude, that's what .224 Valkyrie is.

Yes and no. The 6.8SPC case is the parent case for the Valkyrie, but it's been shortened quite a bit. I'm asking if anyone makes a true 6.8 SPC necked down or if the Valkyrie is it.

I thought AR 15 Performance was making something, but didn't see anything when I went to his site. Also thought it was called the Yote or something like that.

 

[flyer]

ARP did make something like that but it wasn't exactly a success.

The reason why is that it wasn't shortened enough.

 

[Khavic]

ARP did make something like that but it wasn't exactly a success.

The reason why is that it wasn't shortened enough.

Makes sense as its hard with the 90-95gr in the Valkyrie for me to seat the base of the bullet at or above the neck junction without being in the lands. Would be even harder if the case was longer. Was mainly curious to put this in a bolt action. I'll see if I can get a reamer from ARP.

Thanks

 

[Yondering]

Yes and no. The 6.8SPC case is the parent case for the Valkyrie, but it's been shortened quite a bit. I'm asking if anyone makes a true 6.8 SPC necked down or if the Valkyrie is it.

I thought AR 15 Performance was making something, but didn't see anything when I went to his site. Also thought it was called the Yote or something like that.

Isn't that basically what the 22 Nosler is (other than the rebated rim)?

 

[Constructor]

Makes sense as its hard with the 90-95gr in the Valkyrie for me to seat the base of the bullet at or above the neck junction without being in the lands. Would be even harder if the case was longer. Was mainly curious to put this in a bolt action. I'll see if I can get a reamer from ARP.

Thanks

Some shooting the Valkyrie are pushing the 80gr eld to 3000fps(eta-24" barrel), that will beat the 88s, 90s and 95s in drop and drift at the velocity possible out of the Valkyrie. If the 80s beat the heavier bullets due to velocity then we don't need a case as short asd the Valkyrie. The 5.56x42 (Yotesmoker)is just that, a 6.8 case with the shoulder in the same place but the neck trimmed back to 42mm and will shoot 80s about 100fps faster than the Valkyrie. 28gr N540 will push 80s to 3000 out of a 20" barrel. H4895, Varget, RE15 should do it as well as CFE and other ball powders in that range.
The 224LBC/ Grendel/Predator has a little more case capacity but we can't push the pressure as high in Grendel cases as we can with the 6.8 case so both end up at apx the same velocity. 80gr at 3000 out of a 20" barrel.
I've said this before but In 2007 it wasn't as easy to get large batches of custom dies made so I was trying to make it easy(design the x42) so everyone could use 6.8 bushing dies. Now I wish I had made the x42 like I did the 30 Herrett and TAC6...a little shorter with the shoulder blown out. I don't have the x42 reamers but I am sure PTG will sell you one. If you are going to use it in a bolt gun and can use extra length you can have it made with a longer freebore to get the top of the boat tail right up to the shoulder/neck junction of the case.
22 Nosler is same length as a 223 which means using bullets like the 77SMK and shorter if loading to mag length. Sorry keep thinking of more stuff. IF you want to do this in a bolt gun you could use the 22 Nosler design you will gain another 100fps and be able to use a 223 bolt. The freebore is long enough to use 80s and take advantage of the extra SA length.

 

[Constructor]

Anyone making a .224 SPC? 6.8 necked down.

I believe BHW was making one 22/6.8 but as I understand it the cartridge has zero freebore so the bullets are going to be pushed way down in the case.

 

[jcwarrior87]

My buddy and I ran a 224 grendel and valkyrie side by side for a while. His grendel killed my valkyrie for sure. The grendel is running 80elds just under 3k. We could not get the valkyrie that fast.

 

[Constructor]

My buddy and I ran a 224 grendel and valkyrie side by side for a while. His grendel killed my valkyrie for sure. The grendel is running 80elds just under 3k. We could not get the valkyrie that fast.

Try 25gr H4895 with the elds around 2.285- 3000fps is out of a 24" barrel

 

[bjay]

I think the problems with Grendel bolts was that the very early ones were made for 7.62x39s. One of my Grendel bolts failed, but the newer bolts especially from companies like JP are machined out of much better steel; there's certainly no problem with them now. I've looked at Robert Whitley's 6mm Turbo 40 Improved, and have come close to buying an upper from him, I think it would be ideal for PRS gas-gun. Does anyone make a hydroforming die or offer hydroforming services for the 6mm T40i, because fire forming is a pain. I know there's a company doing it for the Dasher.

If you watch Robert video at 6mmar.com how easy size those grendel brass into 6mmturbo.no special dies needed and the accuracy your getting from fireforming good way to zero your scope while fireforming.i think 6mmar would kill grendel and 224val when comes to accuracy

 

[Constructor]

I think the problems with Grendel bolts was that the very early ones were made for 7.62x39s. One of my Grendel bolts failed, but the newer bolts especially from companies like JP are machined out of much better steel; there's certainly no problem with them now. I've looked at Robert Whitley's 6mm Turbo 40 Improved, and have come close to buying an upper from him, I think it would be ideal for PRS gas-gun. Does anyone make a hydroforming die or offer hydroforming services for the 6mm T40i, because fire forming is a pain. I know there's a company doing it for the Dasher.

No, They are still breaking them ---http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?17794-Broke-another-bolt-your-thoughts&p=204269#post204269

 

[K_4c]

800 rds on my 22 Grendel (running all JP internals and a +2 has system with the heaviest spring and tungsten weights). No broken bolt, excellent accuracy and great ballistics.

Settled on a moderate load (28.9 cfe223/2990 fps/75 eld’s).

Doubles as a great coyote cartridge.

 

[K_4c]

Side note. I played with 6.5, 6mm and 22 Grendel variants.

22 Grendel is by far my favorite. Zero recoil.

 

[Big Moose]

800 rds on my 22 Grendel (running all JP internals and a +2 has system with the heaviest spring and tungsten weights). No broken bolt, excellent accuracy and great ballistics.

Settled on a moderate load (28.9 cfe223/2990 fps/75 eld’s).

Doubles as a great coyote cartridge.

Very nice, who made the upper?

 

[K_4c]

Very nice, who made the upper?

I assembled it. JP upper/lower with JP internals. SLR rail and gas block.

 

[lennyo3034]

I chose .224 Valkyrie because of the availability of factory ammo. It's nice being able to just grab a box and go instead of loading. Unfortunately I just now got my barrel (ordered December) and this is my result with factory ammo.

JP barrel and internals. Mega MML receiver set. JP sent a memo about factory 90 SMK not meeting their 1 MOA Guarantee. I was under the impression it was shooting 1.5 MOA or so, not 4.