22LR Barrel Length and Twist Rate for PRS and ELR

[richthe1]

What is the ideal barrel length and twist rate for a 22 barrel? I’ve heard 18”-20”, but not is sounds like some people are running 25” barrels? Also, I’ve heard for fast twist rates such as 1:13 as opposed to 1:16.

Vid about a 25” 13 twist barrel


Vid about an argument for longer barrel length


Trying to decide if I should get a stock Vudoo (20” barrel) or a custom Vudoo barreled action (25” barrel)…

 

[King_beardsly]

I’m running a 23” 12tw and don’t have any complaints with it, I will say it performs a good bit better at distance then my “old” 20” 16tw. Unfortunately I can’t compare apples to apples since they are two different manufacturers, chambers and smiths that spun them up but can simply take what I’m personally seeing.

 

[J_D]

I don't think there's an exact answer. I have a 1:16 24" Shilen, a carbon proof 20" with an EC tuner, and have seen people compete with a 16.5" and 18" barrels that have done very well. A few guys I know went with a 12 or 13 twist, but if there was definitive proof, that would be the standard I would think. The gunsmith and attention to detail along with great ammo for that barrel spans across too many variables to state that a 20" 1:12 is the answer......or something similar.

I tested endlessly to get to my final PRS setup. Ammo is a huge factor in rimfire.

 

[Rob01]

I competed for years with an 18" 16 twist Kukri Vudoo and it did very well. Last year I got a 22" 16 twist MTU and can see a small difference with slightly lower SDs but the extra length and weight do settle the rifle down better on bags. I would say the 22" area is a safe place to be if you are looking. I had a buddy who went with a 26" and he ended up cutting it back to a 22". I will be sending my Vudoo back to Vudoo to get a 22" 1.2" straight contour barrel soon to try it out. I will be getting my 18" back so I can swap them out if need be.

For twist rate I wouldn't go faster than 12 if you wanted to try it but 16 still works just fine.

 

[Lightning8]

Barrel length may also be influenced by wanting more weight up front for balance on props

 

[J_D]

Barrel length may also be influenced by wanting more weight up front for balance on props

Very true. My 24" balances well, but still needed a few weights to get there.

 

[ECK]

I think we’re in a discovery period and at some point somebody is going to crack the code on the right combo of length and twist rate for precision rimfire. Part of me thinks that is pretty cool, but the other part of me is then worried that we’ll start to see target distances getting stretched out to 500+ yds with 1-2 MOA size targets, which then poses the issue of being able to reliably call hits. Such is the cost of innovation I guess…

This past winter I got to spend some time with the folks at VGW. I was 90% certain I was going to order at Vudoo BA, I just hadn’t settled on which barrel I was going to get. VGW gave me a choice ranging from MTU profile out to 22” to a no-taper contour as long as 24”. After talking with them I ended up with a 22” 16tw no-taper Bartlein barrel just because I was a little leery about the velocity drop with the 24” and decided to play it safe with the 22”. I dropped the Vudoo BA in a XLR Envy Pro chassis, the one with the C6 buttstock. The overall weight of the rifle came in right at 17 lbs (BA was ~8 lbs and change, chassis was 4.5 lbs, bipod is right at 1 lb, and scope/rings made up the remaining weight). I have not added any forward weight to the chassis as the heavy barrel helps the rifle balance on a bag, but seems to be more stable if I leave the bipod on there (so I might need an internal weight or two in the forearm to counter balance the C6 butt stock).

Comparing my rifle with my buddy’s Vudoo w/ 20” MTU 16tw the accuracies are about the same out to 300 yds. However I want to say my rifle settles on the bag better. Last practice session we were shooting clay pigeons at 200 and 300 yds, and both were spot on. I’d say accuracy @ 200 was easily sub MOA since we were able to hit even the small shards of clay pigeon at will, but at 300 we were both getting some vertical dispersion so probably a little over MOA at that distance. I probably should put it on paper at some point.

Back on topic of twists rates, one thing VGW told me was they’ll do a barrel change for $500. So down the road if/when somebody does come up with a new twist/length/ammo combo that proves to be deadly out to 500+ yds, it’ll be pretty straight-forward to switch out the barrels (or just get a second BA in the new twist for ELR…).

 

[Alabusa]

I have taken a 16tw to almost 500 yards with no troubles.

 

[b6graham]

i've taken a 20" 16 twist benchmark to 600y and put up a 29-2x on a 600y f-open target. average length and normal twist will do it.

but it doesn't balance super well in my stock of choice without a supercal on the front and even then it could use more weight

i'd take the potentially slightly smaller SDs and additional length/weight on my next RimX barrel. i'd probably go much tighter twist too cause i want to play with solids and don't care all that much about absolute accuracy at 50/100y

 

[Matt_3479]

I prefer a little extra length and weight to help balance the rifles off the barricades and props. As far as twist rates I’ve noticed the 16’s perform better at the closer ranges and the 12’s seem to be slightly more consistent at the longer ranges. Now this isn’t saying either won’t do the opposite as the 16 is standard and very successful at many ranges. I have 2 12’s with one that performs as well as my 16’s at closer ranges and stays consistent at distance. That said my first 16 was insanely accurate out to 300. Ammo plays a huge part, a good barrel, good smith all plays a role. Vudoo barreled actions are amazing out of the box and tough to beat. My next one is a 14 twist 26” 1.250 that I’m waiting on to play with

 

[Mr.BR]

PRS/NRL adds handling on barricades to the mix while ELR should have no reason at all to look a short barrels ,long ones are superior in both finding ammo that will preform and ES SD for said ammo

Olympic-type sling shooting had a short barrel craze in+ mid 90's , the theory driving it was that an unsupported shooter would benefit from shorter barrel time so shorter barrels would induce fewer shooter errors, and for a while short 19-20in barels were seen on all the competitions

In the end ammo just did not perform as well . Short barrels tended to be magnitudes pickier in regards to ammo they shoot well. So as folk had harder time finding match ammo that could shoot extremely well , short barrels went the way of dodo with sling shooters.

BR folks also do not like to go under 24' , and prefer 26'+ as short barrels besides being more ammo picky are also less responsive to tuner input note BR tuners are near 3x as heavy as EC tuners used on rimfire PRS rifles. While BR is weight-limited so you are not going to see barrels past 0.9 straight, folks actually like 0.875 as the more tunable of the two.BR crowd is also very anal in regards to muzzle threads , they rather have tuners clamped than ever thread the muzzle even with 5/8 or larger diameter threads let alone 1/2

My guess is that in couple of years barrels will be slightly longer ( 22-24 )than today and much skinnier if Tuners become the norm. Also, no MTU or any tappers at all as its just stupid to run a tapered contour on a rimfire. The bore dimension will always slightly mirror the contour and you want your bore straight or tapering down , having a tapered barrel you are opening it up ever so slightly.
And the centerfire-sized tenons (Bergara) go way of Dodo

Calfee reverse taper sporter barrel profile is gaming the bore dimensions with contour

 

[KnowNothing256]

Another vote for the longer/heavier end of the spectrum. I won't weigh in on improved ammo performance from a longer barrel, others have done far more research there than I have; for me it's weight for stability and balance. I have a 22" MTU-V barrel on my Vudoo and I wish it was heavier; it balances well now with 1 lb of weight at the end of the forend, but I'd rather have that weight further out. I'd happily run a true MTU or Proof Comp contour at 22" or 24", and I have no interest in going shorter or lighter at this time for PRS-esque comps.

The tunability comments of a thinner/longer barrel do make sense to me, that's food for future thought.

 

[Litzner]

I have recently listened to a couple different ballisticians talk about twist rate and group sizes and I gleamed a little bit of info from them.

A. A higher twist/faster spin rate past where the round is initially stable can increase group sizes, at least at the closer ranges, if the projectile is not perfectly balanced, getting worse and worse the more off balance the projectile is. Think about an unbalanced tire and how the vibration often gets worse and worse the faster you drive, the bullet is doing the same thing in the barrel and after exiting the barrel, although, just like a unbalanced tire, you can find islands of stability at certain speeds.

B. A faster spin rate can be worse at closer ranges for group sizes, but then help keep distant group sizes tighter. So you may have a little more "vibration" early due to the extra twist, but then further down range the round is still in the stable spin range, while the slow twist barrel may have fallen out of this by then.

 

[Emerson0311]

I’ve got a 12T 20”. Next one will be 14T 24”-ish. 9T throw flyers, probably because the faster twist magnifies out of balance bullets due to vagaries of Rimfire production. I’m hoping 14T will be a bit more stable at extended range than 16, but not exacerbate bad Rimfire projectile QC as much. No muzzle threads. Mostly for better balance, although a bit better SD seem to come with that. Slightly slower velocities are not an issue for me.

 

[obx22]

Personally I don’t feel that what I refer to as the “Goldilocks” ratio has been discovered yet, if it even exists. Discussing accuracy theory with friends, I constantly get reminded that “there’s nothing new under the sun”. Let me quantify this:
Yes, barrel manufacturers are now valuing their rimfire customers and instead of just pumping out quantities to meet mediocre demands, are generating perhaps the best bores ever.
Chambers for specific games continue to be refined, and since the late ‘70s have even been designed around specific rounds.
Pin strike’s shape and depth gets tested with lab grade consistency, but just further validates what was documented by Major Hatcher in 1935.
Tenon diameters/lengths ratios, as well as mounting type (threads, interference fit, pins, clamps, set screws, etc.) and resulting stresses have not been fully explored. One builder has postulated publicly about it, but those thoughts certainly are not reflected in current designs.
The point of this thread being twist vs length, all I can offer is it will take awhile for function to follow form. The trend has been towards longer barrels due to the type of shooting most fall on. I’m not talking the game, I’m talking how the person drives the gun. Rather than holding it with the tension that a hunter uses a hard CF kicker, since it’s rimfire the trend seems to be towards almost free-recoil, or the least amount of human influence possible after setting the rifle in bags towards the target. That’s why we see BALANCE being the focus point even more than mechanical accuracy. The accuracy improvement is almost a byproduct of this “weight forward” thinking.
As for fast twist, I’m still on the fence. I have a short 12twist, medium length 14twist, the standard 16twists, and even 16.5, but inherently the accuracy has been ammo based, and none have been tested at long range against each other under identical conditions.

 

[Williwaw]

I have recently listened to a couple different ballisticians talk about twist rate and group sizes and I gleamed a little bit of info from them.

Links please if possible. Thanks for the info.

 

[Litzner]

Links please if possible. Thanks for the info.

If I remember correctly this was one of them.

 

[Lastsaint21]

We have 16T’s 1-12T and a 9T.. evertihng is over 23”.. the 9T for us is yuck.. On a Perfect day for shooting, meaning light to no wind the 12T is probably the best..Add some wind to that though and it’s get tough..The 16’s are much more forgiving with our current skill and ability.. What you gain by the 12T at distance vs being more ammo picky and having to be better at wind doesn’t seem worth it to me.. Even on good shooting days, the 16’s hang with the 12 out to 200. Most PRS matches are won 200 and in..50 yards it’s always the 16T.
As far as barrel length, I would get the longest you think you can handle. When I got my 25” I beat it on every prop from NY to Georgia.. lol but now it’s just natural.. The extra weight helps balance the gun and saves you on adding weight, it also generally makes the gun less ammo picky. I am going to try a 26” next.

 

[Emerson0311]

We have 16T’s 1-12T and a 9T.. evertihng is over 23”.. the 9T for us is yuck.. On a Perfect day for shooting, meaning light to no wind the 12T is probably the best..Add some wind to that though and it’s get tough..The 16’s are much more forgiving with our current skill and ability.. What you gain by the 12T at distance vs being more ammo picky and having to be better at wind doesn’t seem worth it to me.. Even on good shooting days, the 16’s hang with the 12 out to 200. Most PRS matches are won 200 and in..50 yards it’s always the 16T.
As far as barrel length, I would get the longest you think you can handle. When I got my 25” I beat it on every prop from NY to Georgia.. lol but now it’s just natural.. The extra weight helps balance the gun and saves you on adding weight, it also generally makes the gun less ammo picky. I am going to try a 26” next.

Very useful breakdown. It’s rare to hear from someone who has the all options and the match experience to evaluate them well.

 

[ma smith]

Anyone want to comment on using fast twist barrels in winter months. Are they better for winter shooting becuase they are more stable?

 

[King_beardsly]

Anyone want to comment on using fast twist barrels in winter months. Are they better for winter shooting becuase they are more stable?

I don’t have a ton of experience with the winter shooting, but when I got my fast twist I did lot testing in late February and it was a tack driver. Now it’s seems to hold roughly the same degree of accuracy across the temperature range which is really nice living in the north east, and I plan on doing some more cold weather shooting to test some things out.

 

[jbell]

PRS/NRL adds handling on barricades to the mix while ELR should have no reason at all to look a short barrels ,long ones are superior in both finding ammo that will preform and ES SD for said ammo

Olympic-type sling shooting had a short barrel craze in+ mid 90's , the theory driving it was that an unsupported shooter would benefit from shorter barrel time so shorter barrels would induce fewer shooter errors, and for a while short 19-20in barels were seen on all the competitions

In the end ammo just did not perform as well . Short barrels tended to be magnitudes pickier in regards to ammo they shoot well. So as folk had harder time finding match ammo that could shoot extremely well , short barrels went the way of dodo with sling shooters.

BR folks also do not like to go under 24' , and prefer 26'+ as short barrels besides being more ammo picky are also less responsive to tuner input note BR tuners are near 3x as heavy as EC tuners used on rimfire PRS rifles. While BR is weight-limited so you are not going to see barrels past 0.9 straight, folks actually like 0.875 as the more tunable of the two.BR crowd is also very anal in regards to muzzle threads , they rather have tuners clamped than ever thread the muzzle even with 5/8 or larger diameter threads let alone 1/2

My guess is that in couple of years barrels will be slightly longer ( 22-24 )than today and much skinnier if Tuners become the norm. Also, no MTU or any tappers at all as its just stupid to run a tapered contour on a rimfire. The bore dimension will always slightly mirror the contour and you want your bore straight or tapering down , having a tapered barrel you are opening it up ever so slightly.
And the centerfire-sized tenons (Bergara) go way of Dodo

Calfee reverse taper sporter barrel profile is gaming the bore dimensions with contour

Could not have said it better. Is that rifle build by Bill? I sure would have loved to spend a few hours talking with that man about rimfire accuracy…

I have found a longer barrel will tend to be less ammo picky, and the same holds true with a slower twist (16t-15t). The longer barrels seem to have slightly better SD vs short barrels. I call 24” and up longer barrels and sub 20” short for rimfire barrels, with 21”-23” being the best blend of the two. I have per never tried a 23” for some reason, but 20”, 21”, & 22” have all been very accurate and consistent for me while still easy to handle and maneuver. To each their own, there isn’t anything set in stone about barrel lenght.
IMO the most important aspect of rimfire barrel accuracy is the internal bore diameter from chamber to muzzle. Optimally the bore will have a slight choke to it with the tightest spot being right at the crown. I have seen no taper bores shoot very good, but never have I see a barrel that opens at the muzzle (usually caused by threading the muzzle) be consistent.

 

[King_beardsly]

Could not have said it better. Is that rifle build by Bill? I sure would have loved to spend a few hours talking with that man about rimfire accuracy…

I have found a longer barrel will tend to be less ammo picky, and the same holds true with a slower twist (16t-15t). The longer barrels seem to have slightly better SD vs short barrels. I call 24” and up longer barrels and sub 20” short for rimfire barrels, with 21”-23” being the best blend of the two. I have per never tried a 23” for some reason, but 20”, 21”, & 22” have all been very accurate and consistent for me while still easy to handle and maneuver. To each their own, there isn’t anything set in stone about barrel lenght.
IMO the most important aspect of rimfire barrel accuracy is the internal bore diameter from chamber to muzzle. Optimally the bore will have a slight choke to it with the tightest spot being right at the crown. I have seen no taper bores shoot very good, but never have I see a barrel that opens at the muzzle (usually caused by threading the muzzle) be consistent.

I’ve been running a 23” all season and it’s definitely a nice length compared to my 20”. The consistency of the longer barrel across a range of ammo is nice, granted I can’t compare speeds or SD/ES since it’s apples to oranges type of deal.

 

[J_D]

18-20 was good 2-3 yrs ago. The game has changed. Fast twist hasn’t really proven itself from what I’ve seen.

As of this moment, 24-25” 1.20 with a 16 twist is the standard.

 

[J_D]

Also depending on your application the longer barrels balance better.

 

[grauhanen]

18-20 was good 2-3 yrs ago. The game has changed. Fast twist hasn’t really proven itself from what I’ve seen.

As of this moment, 24-25” 1.20 with a 16 twist is the standard.

This observation intentionally or not points to the role of what's favored or in vogue among shooters posting on rimfire forums.

While there's a great deal of anecdotal reporting, there remains no published and verifiable data to show how much, if at all, fast twist improves performance. More certain is that general disappointment with .22LR's anemic performance at long distances is linked to enthusiasm for fast twist to alleviate it.

 

[J_D]

I can’t speak to much for 22lr ELR, but for PRS, 2 friends have gone back to 16 twist.

We don’t really shoot past 400 yds though, and more often under 350.

 

[LR1845]

 

[Sblzrd65]

If the only reason for a longer barrel is better balance, can always just add some weights to the front of a chassis

 

[J_D]

If the only reason for a longer barrel is better balance, can always just add some weights to the front of a chassis

That’s not really ideal. The weights added to balance resulted in a 2-3 lb heavier rifle vs the longer barrel.

 

[ma smith]

While there's a great deal of anecdotal reporting, there remains no published and verifiable data to show how much, if at all, fast twist improves performance.

IIRC... 22LR is hyper-sensitive to bullet deformation,
so you are up against...a kind of two headed monster

spin the bullet too fast...deform the bullet unstable
spin the bullet too slow...unstable

somebody needs to figure this out,
but it doesn't have an obvious solution.

It maybe other factors involved, also.

 

[ma smith]

To adress the problem in the quote above, the problem is possibly one of experimental design. In order to measure or quantify "bullet deformation"... quickly, cost effectively, at scale etc...this maybe a challenge.