22lr twist rate advantages

[Gleedus]

As noted by a previous poster, the chamber design can be an important factor here. There are chambers made with one make or another of ammo in mind.

A Lapua-friendly chamber is one such as the "Nevius" chamber (designed by Kevin Nevius). The Vudoo V22 repeater, for example, has the "Ravage" chamber which is also designed for Lapua ammo. There are also Eley ammo-based chambers, including the Eley EPS and similar chambers, some of which are on some Lilja barrels.

Currently and in recent years, Lapua ammo has reportedly generally performed more satisfactorly than Eley.

It's worth noting that a so-called Lapua chamber is able to shoot other ammos well, because they can and do. In addition, these chambers aren't designed for any one particular variety of Lapua -- be it CX, M+, or X-Act -- because each of these all begin as the same until they are graded. Finally, it should be kept in mind that just because a chamber may be designed for a particular ammo, doesn't mean that it will shoot all lots of that make of ammo well. Lot testing must always be used to determine the best lots of any variety of ammo.

I have calfee 4 and Eley EPS chambers. In all cases Eley out performs lapua past 100 yards. In all cases Lapua is best at 100 and in. This is on average because odd lots do there own thing. So broad strokes here.
Possibly my biased towards Eley has come about because of the chambers I have. I actually dont mind as Eley is easier for me to find lol.
Also Calfee 4 do not seem to shoot high end ammo so well. EPS does well with high end. It doesnt shoot midgrade better then a calfee 4 though. (My experiance)

I have more then a few friends with vudoo and generally they prefer Lapua. But some have also had good results with Eley.

Now I'm not saying lapua shoots "bad" in the EPS chamber but Eley always is/has been better in mine.

I understand the lapua and Eleys grading. In broad strokes I find all lapua shoots simular regardless of lots at distance (Except CX had to many bad lots) and Eley tenex, match all shoot simular. There is generally only small variations. Mid-grade ammo varies more. To be expected.

So all this has lead me to the conclusion that chambers matter and small details of a chamber must matter more then I previously expected.

My 90%s in order of importance are currently I say Currently!!

1- Chamber your rifle to shoot high end ammo for me this is the EPS as it also chambers easy and extracts reliable. Very important for PRS.
2- shoot high end ammo.
3- go with a faster twist. Doesnt apply unless shooting past 200.

 

[Gleedus]

My chamber specifically? Yes 100% of the time. It doesn't like Eley Tenex from the tenex I've tested, I had 2 cases of it. No matter how much I wanted it to shoot, it just didn't shoot close to the Lapua/Ultramatch/R50

I have a Bentz chamber Green Mountain the Tenex hammers in for comparison....

Interesting. Well I can't test everything in life I'll believe you.

Does make me wish to try your chamber in the same barrel I have.... see what lapua really can do. But this is likely one of the 10% gains category.

 

[padom]

Interesting. Well I can't test everything in life I'll believe you.

Does make me wish to try your chamber in the same barrel I have.... see what lapua really can do. But this is likely one of the 10% gains category.

What barrel blank are you using?? Specs?

 

[Gleedus]

What barrel blank are you using?? Specs?

IBI 22" 1-1/16 straight no taper.

 

[padom]

IBI 22" 1-1/16 straight no taper.

Gotcha

I'm shooting both 20" Bartlein and Krieger 1:16 M24. They both have produced the lowest 10x5 AGG at 50 and 100yd during my ammo/barrel testing.

Benchmark was 3rd and Green Mountain was right there with the Benchmark.....the Lilja was a lemon, at least the 2 sent to me were anyway....

 

[padom]

I didnt do any controlled testing past 100yd like I did at 50 and 100 but I will now. Just shoot lots of groups on steel from 300-500

 

[HuskerP7M8]

No hard data and only observation/opinion, but killer lots of both Eley/Lapua don't seem to have any statistical correlation to chamber design in my experience, and many or maybe the majority of the guys who are most successful these days in RFBR have all manner of chamber dimensions and shoot both.

There's no doubt in my mind that a good chamber design is very important, but believing one is better than another regarding ammo manufacturer seems to be based on reports with very small samples and far too few lots of each to be of any help in answering the question definitively.

I will say Kevin Nevius reported to me that he'd shot nearly a case of Lapua in designing his chamber, but I didn't ask him for the data so I could analyze it when I had him build me a rifle a few years ago and he used what he called a compromise chamber for both.

This is just one subject all of us are interested in, but it's also one that's difficult, if not impossible to test.

Landy

 

[Gleedus]

Gotcha

I'm shooting both 20" Bartlein and Krieger 1:16 M24

Why 20? Thats one of the 10% I'm messing with.... have a 26" here thats doomed to die. Mostly have my base lines collected then pop it in my lathe this winter and try again.

 

[padom]

Why 20? Thats one of the 10% I'm messing with.... have a 26" here thats doomed to die. Mostly have my base lines collected then pop it in my lathe this winter and try again.

Because I tested 16", 18", 20" and 22" and found the most consistent accuracy in the 20".

 

[Gleedus]

Because I tested 16", 18", 20" and 22" and found the most consistent accuracy in the 20".

A friend of mine did the same. And says 20" as well. We shall see. He used SK, Lapua for his testing. I'm using Eley as well to see if there is a difference as Eleys velocity seems to hold up better in long barrels.

 

[padom]

A friend of mine did the same. And says 20" as well. We shall see. He used SK, Lapua for his testing. I'm using Eley as well to see if there is a difference as Eleys velocity seems to hold up better in long barrels.

I could believe that. Tenex has a higher velocity than all the other match ammo I tested with R50 being second.... everything else is in that 1050-1075 range

 

[Gleedus]

Considering what you're trying to accomplish and the conditions you're shooting in, it's probably not necessary to record the x-axis SD. However, since it's so easy to calculate/record, and you never know when it might be valuable in the future, a dataholic like me records and tracks some 50 different metrics in my custom spreadsheets.

A brief comment on Positive Compensation:
A piece of cake and so easy to do with CF at 600 yds to 1000 yds, a monkey could do it! RF is another story though and I've found it to be nearly impossible to accomplish without impractical large sample sizes at the 50yd/50M distance. I highly suspect it's doable at 100yds to ELR distances, but my ballistic tunnel isn't long enough.
I did set-up the experimental design for such testing at extended distances many years ago but it requires 2 very good rifles shot at the same time with a buddy of mine shooting the 2nd rifle, a minimum of 5 flags with 4 Beggs wind probes for a 100 yd distance, and video camera footage of the flags/probes I can edit to cut out the still images within 1/30 of a second of the trigger being pulled on both rifles.
It's actually a pretty simple test, but it requires quite a bit of time and a lot of number crunching I can't seem to find the time for. Someday maybe?

Landy

You are probably right. Many times I've looked back and wished that I would have recorded more data.

I understand the time thing all to well... I am a small business owner and ya.... on the bright side we do build buildings that are more then 200 yards long... now if it would just work out that I could use one for a bit... I would like to do that with a tuner but I'm not ready for that. I'm also not sure if I would be able to reliably find the difference with a non-BR setup.

 

[Gleedus]

For a little bit I was ready to curse the hide again and go back to my little world and just do my own thing. I really appreciate the good conversation guys.

 

[John Glidewell]

I just built my first 22lr. Got about 300 rounds on it. I did test some different stuff, but it was very windy. It shot well for conditions. I will be running lot testing again. My question is, how or what is the better method? Do you clean the barrel between lots / brands and run a bunch of 5 shot groups at 50 to average and repeat? Or do you just shoot? I have heard that the different wax / bullet compounds can influence test results. I have no idea. New to Precision 22 game. Rig is Rimx bedded in HS precision tactical with a 20" Green Mountatin 1 in 16 twist done by Keystone Accuracy I got from @padom and a MK5 7-35 on top. Great stuff posted in here.

Adding. I can get velocity data on lab radar too.

 

[barronian]

I just built my first 22lr. Got about 300 rounds on it. I did test some different stuff, but it was very windy. It shot well for conditions. I will be running lot testing again. My question is, how or what is the better method? Do you clean the barrel between lots / brands and run a bunch of 5 shot groups at 50 to average and repeat? Or do you just shoot? I have heard that the different wax / bullet compounds can influence test results. I have no idea. New to Precision 22 game. Rig is Rimx bedded in HS precision tactical with a 20" Green Mountatin 1 in 16 twist done by Keystone Accuracy I got from @padom and a MK5 7-35 on top. Great stuff posted in here.

Adding. I can get velocity data on lab radar too.

i don't clean between lots but do clean if changing brands(lube/combustion products).

For lot testing i shoot and record (velocity/SD/group MOA/CEP/etc) a 100m 6x5 for each lot, then repeat with the lots in a different order. I do this three times then a final 10 shot group for each lot. This gives me a recorded 100 shots of each lot that i can do my statistics on. I wait for completely still conditions (preferably overcast) to do this testing. I'll sometimes repeat the best 2 or 3 lots under different weather conditions.

I've found that, unless i'm in my best form, lot testing is statistical nonsense. In other words 'my' performance can make the statistical variation within a lot to be just as large as the variation between lots.

Before you do your lot testing, decide what do you mean by a good lot ? Is it the one with the smallest average group size ? or the smallest SD radius ?, smallest CEP50% ?, CEP90% ? In other words if you have two lots, one which gives a 100 shot group of 1.5" with the shots scattered evenly within the 1.5" diameter and the other 100 shot group is 2" but 90% of the shots are within 0.7" diameter - which do you consider better ?

 

[Gleedus]

I dont clean. My first 2 shots after a ammo type change often velocity is a little funny. I dont see a real difference in 50 yard group size. But I'm not BR.
I'm not not a fan of cleaning as I find the velocity changes as the barrel fouls.

 

[iceng]

1:9t 21", heavy contour (M24). I have a brake and a tuner.

Calfee2 chamber, 2.5mm of jam. Bergara B14r. Up to 150m, no real difference between my previous CZ452 or a mates stock Bergara. Up to 400m, it shines and is clearly an advantage.

SK standard plus yellow box.

 

[padom]

I dont clean between lot or ammo testing either. I always shoot a 50rd box (10x5) at 50yd and same at 100yd when testing ammo..

Yes, when going from one type of ammo to the next, that 1st and sometimes second group may be screwy but it always tightens up in that 1st or 2nd grouping.

I clean when the barrel needs cleaning which isn't all that often...maybe 500rd or more

 

[littlepod]

I dont clean between lot or ammo testing either. I always shoot a 50rd box (10x5) at 50yd and same at 100yd when testing ammo..

Yes, when going from one type of ammo to the next, that 1st and sometimes second group may be screwy but it always tightens up in that 1st or 2nd grouping.

I clean when the barrel needs cleaning which isn't all that often...maybe 500rd or more

Does anyone know the time it takes for the Carbon ring to 'harden'? My understanding / experience is that over time, usually about 500 rounds or so in my rifle, I'll start getting cold bore shifts on the first 2 rounds. This is due to the carbon ring softening on the first few rounds, and then everything is fine. For 1-day matches I haven't bothered cleaning as much as I get time to zero and soften that up before the match starts. On 2-day matches I don't get another zero period, so the first shot on the 2nd day is usually the first shot of the stage and I don't like dealing with that shift during a stage. So usually I clean my rifle before 2-day matches so it's consistent throughout the match.

I haven't had patience enough to test out how long until the hardening happens - 30min? 45min?

 

[grauhanen]

I've found that, unless i'm in my best form, lot testing is statistical nonsense. In other words 'my' performance can make the statistical variation within a lot to be just as large as the variation between lots.

Before you do your lot testing, decide what do you mean by a good lot ? Is it the one with the smallest average group size ? or the smallest SD radius ?, smallest CEP50% ?, CEP90% ? In other words if you have two lots, one which gives a 100 shot group of 1.5" with the shots scattered evenly within the 1.5" diameter and the other 100 shot group is 2" but 90% of the shots are within 0.7" diameter - which do you consider better ?

When a shooter isn't in his "best form" -- that is, shooting to his very best ability, successfully taking into account the wind, either by shooting in its absence or effectively using wind flags -- testing any ammo is fraught with problems. Is it the ammo? Is it the shooter? There's no way to know.

A good lot is one that scores well, however scoring is done. One random lot can be better or worse than another. It's a question of luck how a random lot shoots.

 

[grauhanen]

When shooters are certain of their rifle/barrel's "window of accuracy" they can take advantage of it to shoot without much concern for cleaning when using the same ammo. The window varies from barrel to barrel, perhaps with makes of ammo as well. When the window is small, cleaning must be more frequent.

Of course, it's difficult to be familiar with the size of the window of accuracy if it's never seriously measured, and that takes shooting under conditions where each and every shot can be reliably confirmed not to be the result of wind, MV variation, or shooter error.

 

[littlepod]

When shooters are certain of their rifle/barrel's "window of accuracy" they can take advantage of it to shoot without much concern for cleaning when using the same ammo. The window varies from barrel to barrel, perhaps with makes of ammo as well. When the window is small, cleaning must be more frequent.

Of course, it's difficult to be familiar with the size of the window of accuracy if it's never seriously measured, and that takes shooting under conditions where each and every shot can be reliably confirmed not to be the result of wind, MV variation, or shooter error.

Yeh I've never had to clean due to a window of accuracy yet on the Vudoo. It's only the cold bore shifts when it's dirty is when I clean. I've gone 2000 rounds and haven't noticed a drop in accuracy (not doing benchrest), but it was still holding .3" at 50yds.

 

[Hoser]

That is exactly why I clean mine (Vudoo, Anschutz, Bleiker, 40X) rimfires after each match and practice. It only takes a few minutes to clean and means I am good for the next trip to the range.

 

[Gleedus]

Because BR levels of precision are not my focus not cleaning the bore has had no recordable effect on groups.

I found my velocity increases aprox 20 fps from a perfectly clean bore over several hundred rounds. Once the velocity is stabilized it hasnt moved for me other then temp. So I dont clean the bore.

Cold bore on the other hand I dont want. I have no cold bore shot with my IBIs unless I shoot CCI sv for a brick or so. Then I just clean the chamber good to go.

I've never got a cold bore well running Eley. A good friend of mine running SK gets a cold bore in less then 20 min with his vudoo. So I thought maybe Eley is better but nope another friend is running same Eley I do and gets a cold bore every stage as well. I think he has a benchmark barrel. Anyhow its been discussed among a number of us because some of us do and some dont. No conclusions on what the difference is for sure.

 

[grauhanen]

Bores can be like people, each with its characteristics that can make them unique and behave differently than others.

Generally speaking, changes in ambient temperature can contribute to changes in a particular lot of ammo's MV. A change in temperature such as that experienced as a warm summer morning becomes midday, with temperature increases of about 10 degrees F, can increase MV's of the same lot by 20 - 30 fps. As temperatures drop, MV's will decrease.

 

[littlepod]

Because BR levels of precision are not my focus not cleaning the bore has had no recordable effect on groups.

I found my velocity increases aprox 20 fps from a perfectly clean bore over several hundred rounds. Once the velocity is stabilized it hasnt moved for me other then temp. So I dont clean the bore.

Cold bore on the other hand I dont want. I have no cold bore shot with my IBIs unless I shoot CCI sv for a brick or so. Then I just clean the chamber good to go.

I've never got a cold bore well running Eley. A good friend of mine running SK gets a cold bore in less then 20 min with his vudoo. So I thought maybe Eley is better but nope another friend is running same Eley I do and gets a cold bore every stage as well. I think he has a benchmark barrel. Anyhow its been discussed among a number of us because some of us do and some dont. No conclusions on what the difference is for sure.

My other theory is if you never clean, the carbon ring gets so hard it never softens hence you stop getting a cold bore. I just haven't tested that yet with my Vudoo.

 

[Gleedus]

Bores can be like people, each with its characteristics that can make them unique and behave differently than others.

Generally speaking, changes in ambient temperature can contribute to changes in a particular lot of ammo's MV. A change in temperature such as that experienced as a warm summer morning becomes midday, with temperature increases of about 10 degrees F, can increase MV's of the same lot by 20 - 30 fps. As temperatures drop, MV's will decrease.

Its not temp thats causein my velocity increase if thats what your wondering. I do track that as well and record my velocity vs temp.

My observation is that Eley is much more temp stable then most. A 10⁰f shift I would only expect 5 fps.

 

[grauhanen]

Its not temp thats causein my velocity increase if thats what your wondering. I do track that as well and record my velocity vs temp.

My observation is that Eley is much more temp stable then most. A 10⁰f shift I would only expect 5 fps.

Perhaps some ammo/barrels are less sensitive to how changes in temperature can affect MVs.

 

[padom]

Perhaps some ammo/barrels are less sensitive to how changes in temperature can affect MVs.

I would agree with this from my testing.

I have noticed a few different things between all the 22lr RimX blanks Ive tested.

The cut rifled barrels (Bartlein and Krieger) both shot lights out from the very first rounds out of the barrels. 1st groups were super tight and no flyers.. No break in required. I dont see any cold bore. The rounds stack right where I put them, cold rifle or warm rifle. I dont have any accuracy issues without cleaning for 1000-1500rd.... probably longest Ive gone between cleanings...

Now the button barrels Ive tested, the barrels tightened up and flyers went away after putting more rounds through the new barrels... Generally the 200-300rd mark was where I considered them broken in and those groups were fully tightened up and random flyers were gone...

I notice I need to clean more often with these barrels 500-750rd before I start seeing noticiable accuracy issues.

I will say, the button barrel comments/observations I just outlined were least observered with the Benchmark blank but it was not identical to what I see with the cut rifled barrels..

Just my observations

 

[Gleedus]

It could very well be that the barrel has as much to do with it as the ammo. My rifles have given the same results but perhaps another brand would be different.

I have only used button rifled barrel and they all require a few hundred rounds to break in. Somewhere between 500-1000 they seemed to really settle in. I looked into getting a Bartlein but the wait time and cost to get one up here made me wait for now.

Do you think that chamber design has something to do with cold bore?

 

[padom]

It could very well be that the barrel has as much to do with it as the ammo. My rifles have given the same results but perhaps another brand would be different.

I have only used button rifled barrel and they all require a few hundred rounds to break in. Somewhere between 500-1000 they seemed to really settle in. I looked into getting a Bartlein but the wait time and cost to get one up here made me wait for now.

Do you think that chamber design has something to do with cold bore?

Idk it very well could. Since I had my custom 22lr Match Eachus reamer made, all of my barrels have been chambered with it. That's across multiple custom CZ455's with Bartlein blanks, 15 or so RimX and 5 or 6 Vudoo. They all perform the same as outlined above, love the Lapua/SK/FGMM ammo the best

 

[padom]

The only other 22lr chambers I shot before I had my custom reamer made were Lilja, Lilja2, Bentz and 22LR win52

They all had their specific ammo they shot well, but I would call them picky...they didn't shoot multiple different types of ammo nearly as tight as the one ammo you found it liked.

With my reamer, I designed it around Lapua/SK and I find it shoots all the SK ammo (lot tested of course) and Lapua ammo along with FGMM (922a and UM), R50, Wolf ME all very well. I find it very consistent and forgiving.

In this day and age where it's not the easiest to go grab bricks or cases of all the top match ammo and test...its nice to have a chamber that shoots multiple different types of match ammo well

 

[Gleedus]

So in short since running your chamber across multiple barrel manufactures your experience has been no cold bore shot. Or atleast nothing outside of typical group possibility.

 

[barronian]

Im in the middle of some temperature testing - i've been running a series of tests recording velocities vs powder temp and vs barrel temp. Still early days on the testing, and it is only one gun, one barrel length, one chamber and one ammo type.
So far it is pretty clear that changing the powder temp from -10C to 25C produces about 4 - 6 fps velocity increase at any barrel temperature while changing the barrel temp from -10C to 25C produces about 18 fps velocity increase at any given powder temperature.

Neither of these correlate with the cold bore velocity changes that i've recorded.... what does appear to correlate (but i haven't worked our how to measure yet) is humidity. In my setup high humidity in the barrel will cause a cold bore 'flier'. This is easy to reproduce... shoot the gun as many times as you like to get it nice and stable then exhale down the barrel - the next shot will be a flier ....

@padom @CRPS Shooter and others would you care to reproduce this 'humidity' test and see if you get the same results ?

 

[padom]

So in short since running your chamber across multiple barrel manufactures your experience has been no cold bore shot. Or atleast nothing outside of typical group possibility.

That's is correct. Nothing on the cut rifled from the get go.. and nothing on the buttons after the 200-300rd break in I mentioned above


For example. I had about 6500rd on this RimX krieger barrel thats on my rifle now.. I put over 1500rd through it, no cleaning and threw it in the safe last fall....Rugged Oculus still on it....didn't take it off

I had an extremely busy 2021... I own an IT company so as a small business owner, you know how that goes. I got engaged last fall, fiance pregnant in March, she moved in June. One of the busiest years for my company, remodeled 3 rooms in the house this summer, built and moved into my new office....

So in short, I did the least amount of shooting in 2021 in as long as I can remember.. didnt pull a trigger from Jan till last month.

Grabbed that dirty RimX out of the safe, 1500rd+ on it, can still attached, exactly how I left it a year ago and went to the range for some R&R just to get away for an hour or so. Loaded up some CenterX. It hit exactly where I had it zero and pushed out a tiny little group cold right out the safe dirty as hell. No cold bore, nothing. Just picked up right where it left off. That I was suprised with, expected a cold bore or something. Haha. Nope, like it never missed a beat

 

[Gleedus]

Hahaha I hear you! The joys of life! Your experience as well as what we have observed in my shooting group then its not the ammo or barrels that are causing the cold bore. Must be a chamber or chambering quality related.

 

[grauhanen]

Do you think that chamber design has something to do with cold bore?

If the reference is to cold bore fliers, which typically occur after the barrel has not had a round through it for a period, is caused by the drying and hardening of the detritus in the bore after inactivity occurs. When a shot is fired, moisture is one of the results, in addition to the lube and fouling that spreads through the barrel. As the moisture leaves an inactive bore, the fouling, and perhaps the lube, dries and hardens. The result is that the first shot through the now-"cold" bore, follows a path different from those of subsequent rounds. Subsequent rounds reintroduce moisture.

Many BR shooters may continue to fire fouling shots if there is what may be a period of inactivity for some reason. This is to help preserve the consistent nature of the fouling and lube in the bore.

It's not clear if a chamber design can induce a cold bore flier.

 

[Gleedus]

I have a factory rifle that when I'm shooting everyday I get a 1 shot cold bore. If im shooting one a week a 2 shot cold bore. Its a shift up and right to 1:30 and 0.8-1 mil. Some of the vudoos and CZ around here have a cold bore every stage. 0.5 mil plus. In my core group none of the IBI barrels have a significant cold bore. Most are calfee 4 chambers so not particularly tight.

 

[HenryRed]

I have a factory rifle that when I'm shooting everyday I get a 1 shot cold bore. If im shooting one a week a 2 shot cold bore. Its a shift up and right to 1:30 and 0.8-1 mil. Some of the vudoos and CZ around here have a cold bore every stage. 0.5 mil plus. In my core group none of the IBI barrels have a significant cold bore. Most are calfee 4 chambers so not particularly tight.

One fellow shooter in PRS was having first round of day flier. Then in turned into first round of stage on his 457 MTR. After looking at barrel and carbon ring with bore scope he cleaned just the chamber and removed the carbon ring. After that the "cold bore" flier was gone.

 

[Emerson0311]

I have a factory rifle that when I'm shooting everyday I get a 1 shot cold bore. If im shooting one a week a 2 shot cold bore. Its a shift up and right to 1:30 and 0.8-1 mil. Some of the vudoos and CZ around here have a cold bore every stage. 0.5 mil plus. In my core group none of the IBI barrels have a significant cold bore. Most are calfee 4 chambers so not particularly tight.

My T1X likes to put the cold bore shot about 1 1/2” high and 1/2” left at 100. I haven’t worked hard at investigating it because the ammo and barrel are not great anyway and will be replaced by an IBI. I will expect better then.

 

[Gleedus]

One fellow shooter in PRS was having first round of day flier. Then in turned into first round of stage on his 457 MTR. After looking at barrel and carbon ring with bore scope he cleaned just the chamber and removed the carbon ring. After that the "cold bore" flier was gone.

Yes removing the carbon ring will solve the issue for a time. I'm more interested in why some never have a problem and some do. I have over 5000 rounds with no cleaning on several barrels and one over 15k since i stopped cleaning with no ill effects

 

[iceng]

We have a club 452 with 100,000+ through it. Still shoots good.

 

[Gleedus]

We have a club 452 with 100,000+ through it. Still shoots good.

Does it have a cold bore shot? Even my rifles that have a cold bore shot shoot good after.

 

[iceng]

Does it have a cold bore shot? Even my rifles that have a cold bore shot shoot good after.

I honestly don't know, however I will endeavour to find out. No one has mentioned an issue, but it sorta is the village bike.

 

[grauhanen]

Consider three basic conditions that a bore can have. One is clean and unfouled before any shots. Another is actively in use. And finally "cold" -- not in use for a period of time, a state that persists until at least one round is fired. Only one of them can deliver consistent performance -- but only as far as the particular round being shot is capable.

 

[grauhanen]

I have over 5000 rounds with no cleaning on several barrels and one over 15k since i stopped cleaning with no ill effects

There may be a practical reason for this.

Because BR levels of precision are not my focus not cleaning the bore has had no recordable effect on groups.

It makes sense that if "BR levels of precision" are not sought, cleaning or not cleaning is unlikely to have a noticable effect on results, especially at long range.

This raises a puzzling rhetorical question about a theme not uncommon in these threads concerning the level of accuracy sought in long range shooting. As such, it's not intended as disparagement or directed at anyone in particular, especially since it may unfairly characterize the words used as a seque quoted above

BR shooters strive for the best accuracy possible at 50 or 100 yards with their rifle/barrel/ammo combination.

Even though BR levels of accuracy at any distance may not be achievable without BR rigs, and unless performance at 50 is irrelevant to those at multiples of that distance, don't (or shouldn't) all shooters -- with whichever rifle/barrel/ammo used -- always shoot like they were trying for the best level of accuracy at 50 even when their bullets are travelling to 200 or beyond?

 

[Emerson0311]

There may be a practical reason for this.



It makes sense that if "BR levels of precision" are not sought, cleaning or not cleaning is unlikely to have a noticable effect on results, especially at long range.

This raises a puzzling rhetorical question about a theme not uncommon in these threads concerning the level of accuracy sought in long range shooting. As such, it's not intended as disparagement or directed at anyone in particular, especially since it may unfairly characterize the words used as a seque quoted above

BR shooters strive for the best accuracy possible at 50 or 100 yards with their rifle/barrel/ammo combination.

Even though BR levels of accuracy at any distance may not be achievable without BR rigs, and unless performance at 50 is irrelevant to those at multiples of that distance, don't (or shouldn't) all shooters -- with whichever rifle/barrel/ammo used -- always shoot like they were trying for the best level of accuracy at 50 even when their bullets are travelling to 200 or beyond?

I can’t speak for CRPSShooter, but as I age, I better understand the investment vs return calculation, probably due to resource limitations more than anything else. If my performance limitations are due to lacking gear and ammo, that is a $$ problem. The last 5% is much more costly than the first 50%. If my shortcomings are personal skills, I can address that with sweat equity. For me, if I can get my 10 rnd group average under 1 1/2” at 100, and get similar vertical to my horizontal at 200 (<3”) and so on farther out, that will meet all the raw gear requirements for what I want to do. Pursuing better than that is not much fun for me at this point. I’ve watched your successful efforts to shoot tiny 10 round groups at 100. Quite impressive. My CRPS needs are not that precise.

 

[obx22]

Just an observation over having fired many rimfire rifles in my lifetime, the only time a “cold shot” wasn’t ammo-lube based, was on poorly fitted barrels.
Winter’s effect on gun oils can contribute, but usually has a tattletale of light strikes on the case rim.