250 savage again

[sav338lapua]

finally got to work with the 250 savage some more after getting things in order. well i finally got a pound of reloader 17 to do testing with it too.
so bought a box of Berger 115 gr match hunters, at the time that's the only heavy .257 bullet out there. after a couple of weeks here is where i'm at.
Berger 115 match hunter over 40 grs of reloader 17 - results: avg velocity 3056 FPS, very surprising number for a cartridge that came out in 1915!!!
pressure signs were good still have radius on primers and no sticky cases or hard bolt handle lift. only bad thing??? this gun doesn't like these bullets
i have never had much luck with Berger bullets, but i'm going to move the load down to see if there's a sweet spot.
to the good hornady has a new .257 115gr ELD-X bullet out some i'm ordering a box of these and i have had good results with all the hornady bullets i have tried over the years. will keep things updated as i get my results.
SB

 

[jswhitesell619]

Interesting results for sure, I saw the new Blackjack bullets, they make the 131gr with a g7 of .330 I believe. Certainly makes me interested in the 25x47 for something different!

 

[D2junky]

I built a 250ai with a Rock Creek 9 twist several years ago that has languished for lack of a good bc projectile. Might be time to pull it into service

 

[jswhitesell619]

I believe the new projectiles require a 1 in 7 or 1 in 7.5 twist. What kind of speeds were you getting in your 250ai?

 

[sav338lapua]

Thanks guys, just looked at this old cartridge and thought how come no one has revisited it to see what these new powders can do for it. My thoughts to were if this works good gives everyone another factory cartridge that would also be great for newby's and beginners. Plus it's been fun to work wth. Mmm 131gr bullet wow!!! I'm pretty sure I can get 120's to 2950 FPS, but...... get a 131gr to 2850 FPS and now your talking!!!! Damn now I'm gonna half to have another barrel made!!!!! Probable a 1:8 twist.

 

[D2junky]

I believe the new projectiles require a 1 in 7 or 1 in 7.5 twist. What kind of speeds were you getting in your 250ai?

I’ve never run it through the chrony. Loaded up a max load of h4895 and a 110 TTSX to kill stuff and it worked. Formed some brass and kinda forgot about it.

 

[sav338lapua]

Mmm you should have chron'd those loads, but I would also ask you to try varget and not use h or IMR4895.
It's more stable thru all temp ranges and you'll see a lot more velocity. A load I worked up for my savage 1920 bolt gun that was manufactured in 1926 is 42grs of varget with a 75gr VMAX yields 3452 FPS avg. from a 22" barrel and yes it's a 1:14 twist as all were back then. This is a very accurate load to. It's a coyotes worst nightmare come true.

 

[MachoKing]

I'd love to see the match community grab onto the nickel bore and have some nice BC projectiles produced. A 250 Sav or a 25-06 (regular or AI) would be a sweet shooting gun if only the BC's on the bullets didn't suck. Light recoil, just a joy to shoot, and the 25 caliber can take down any North American game animal.

 

[D2junky]

I never planned on H4895 being the final propellant but I had a pound I needed to burn up. I’ll pull it out of the safe and check a few of those loads but once the brass is formed it will likely see Rl17 and/or 16 and continue with the ttsx or 110 Eld. The throat is a bit long for 75’s. It’s always been a deer gun for my daughter.

 

[CUBUFF89]

My quarter bore is a pre-64 Win Model 70 in .257 Roberts. It is strictly a hunting rifle so I haven't been held back by the lack of high bc projectiles. I've had good results with the Hornady 117gr BTSP Interlock in my rifle. I used Reloaded 19. R17 wasn't out when I developed my load.

 

[sav338lapua]

Hey Dixie rifleman, I know what you mean, the advance in powders even in the last few years has been moving at light speed. That's what got me to looking at the 250 savage. With hornady coming out with their lever evolution and superformance loads I was always a big fan of the 250 so I started looking at what would work with it.
I figured with its case dimensions it could be very efficient case. So far looking at my data it really is.
Now with some serious long bullets coming out it's really getting interesting.

 

[D2junky]

The limit will be barrels with proper twist.

 

[buffybuster]

Very few high BC bullets is currently the limiting factor. Barrels will be made if the bullets exist to shoot them.

 

[sav338lapua]

Well I agree with you guys but this is a start.
When we start asking for things is when the manufacturers take notice and feel hey we can make a buck here. Now there’s a company that’s going to make high be .257 bullets.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Black Jack bullets

 

[sav338lapua]

you got it culpeper, also hornady is making a 110gr ELD-X now too maybe it won't take to much to get them to make some heavier bullets

 

[sandwarrior]

finally got to work with the 250 savage some more after getting things in order. well i finally got a pound of reloader 17 to do testing with it too.
so bought a box of Berger 115 gr match hunters, at the time that's the only heavy .257 bullet out there. after a couple of weeks here is where i'm at.
Berger 115 match hunter over 40 grs of reloader 17 - results: avg velocity 3056 FPS, very surprising number for a cartridge that came out in 1915!!!
pressure signs were good still have radius on primers and no sticky cases or hard bolt handle lift. only bad thing??? this gun doesn't like these bullets
i have never had much luck with Berger bullets, but i'm going to move the load down to see if there's a sweet spot.
to the good hornady has a new .257 115gr ELD-X bullet out some i'm ordering a box of these and i have had good results with all the hornady bullets i have tried over the years. will keep things updated as i get my results.
SB

What rifle with what barrel are you using?

 

[sav338lapua]

Action savage 10 stagger feed, barrel is a E.R. Shaw 1:10 twist. It shoots 100gr MK's into 1/2" all day long
Oh that load is 36.5grs of varget and it avg's 3050 FPS!!!!!
This is my 3rd barrel from them and all have been damn accurate.

 

[sandwarrior]

The .250 is a pretty snappy li'l round for sure. I had a first year production Savage model 1899 .250-3000 (same thing as .250 Sav.) and with the right load it would shoot amazingly accurate. That was with 75's, 87's and 90's. I used a bunch of the 90 FMJ in it, lol. Why they thought we would ever buy the line that trappers use it all the time kills me. It was dumped experimental bullets for the military.

So, somewhere in the mists of time the .250 case was necked to .224"...that stuck, then .243 as the 6mm-250, 6.5 and 7mm as the International series. Those didn't stay around. Pervious to those, though was when Charles Newton re-designed the case to the .300 Savage. He shortened the case from 1.912 to 1.871" (47.5mm), but kept the body taper exactly the same as the .30-06 as opposed to the sharp taper of the .250. And, BTW, it's the parent case of the 7.62x51/.308 Win, not the 30-06,

This is the wildcat I liked to see stuff built on when I was a kid. The International series, since they were wildcats, were built on either the .250 case or .300 case. IMO, the .300 case is more efficient with it's wider shoulders and 30 deg. shoulder angle. And, it fits and feeds in everything with a .308 based mag, or 30-06 based mag. Yes, I have seen and shot a .250-300. It's a nice improvement over the .250 Savage. I will never go to the 40* ackley shoulder again. Pressure builds too fast in it, without enough flow of pressure out of the case during firing. It gets worse with smaller diameter calibers.

 

[sav338lapua]

nice info sandwarrior and yes all true, i have a "99" in 300 savage it is quite the equal to any 308 rifle and it is far more accurate than any other lever gun.
also as i stated above my 250 savage hunting rifle is a savage 1920 bolt action which is based on the 1903 springfield and the mauser 98, its also the first short action bolt action i might add. looking back thru savage history youll find many firsts. oh sierra has a 90gr BTHP that is very accurate with the 1:14 twist thats hell on whitetails, and i just got some 90gr hornady GMX's to try also.

 

[sandwarrior]

nice info sandwarrior and yes all true, i have a "99" in 300 savage it is quite the equal to any 308 rifle and it is far more accurate than any other lever gun.
also as i stated above my 250 savage hunting rifle is a savage 1920 bolt action which is based on the 1903 springfield and the mauser 98, its also the first short action bolt action i might add. looking back thru savage history youll find many firsts. oh sierra has a 90gr BTHP that is very accurate with the 1:14 twist thats hell on whitetails, and i just got some 90gr hornady GMX's to try also.

Ha! I never knew the Savage 1920 had a short action version. Another interesting tidbit about that action is it's all round, like the Rem 700. I should say vice-versa as the Remmy is like the Savage.

I shot a lot of Sierra 90 gr. BTHP's and flat bases out of mine too. Just that i ran across a deal a long time ago with the FMJ's.

"High pressure steel" what more do you need to say?

 

[sav338lapua]

The 1920 is a short action because it was only made to take the 250 and 300 savage, '06 won't fit.
I don't think they were thinking long or short action just made it to fit those cartridges. They came out with the model 40 super sport which is a long action and many were in '06 this took the 1920's place.
Yes the 700 was given the same tube dimensions as the 110 which came out in 1958, the 700 didn't come out until 1960. Another interesting thing about the super sport was it's rear locking lugs. Doesn't that sound familiar???
Yeah after many years they copied from savage again with their 588. Oh well.

 

[MachoKing]

Savage has often had innovative designs, but the quality was lacking.

 

[sandwarrior]

Savage has often had innovative designs, but the quality was lacking.

The marketplace consensus says the QC was lacking. But, in the end, Savages have held up every bit as well as Remmy's and Winchesters from back in the day. Meaning it was marketing hype, not that Savage didn't have good QC.

 

[sav338lapua]

yes sir sandwarrior your right, the QC on savage rifles every bit as good as any other. back in the 70's and 80's all i heard was OH the savage rifles have a barrel nut !!! OOOOOOOh we cant have that!! now what is a feature all the makers tought??? oh we have a barrel nut to guarantee the best head space.
OOOOh we pinnned in the bolt head so it can set square to the receiver!! mm savage been doing this since the 110 was sold to the public.
ill put my 1920 against any other bolt action of the time or now, its a very well done rifle

.

 

[257 Blackjack]

Very few high BC bullets is currently the limiting factor. Barrels will be made if the bullets exist to shoot them.

Bartlein, Krieger, Rock Creek, Lilja, X-Caliber, Schneider, and I'm sure a few others are able to make 1:7 - 1:8" twist blanks (think 1:7-1:7.5" for non-magnums under 3200 fps and 1:7.75-1:8" for magnums over 3200 fps).

We've ordered 175 barrels and will be ordering more, even including some carbon fiber barrel blanks.

We have a few Rock, Bart, and Krieger Barrels left. Plenty of Liljas and X-Cals which are on firesale. Even have 25x47 and 25 Creedmoor reamers.

All in all a 25x47 and 25 Creedmoor are going to make some slick low recoil match/hunting rigs. Our 26" 25x47 ran up to 2950 fps with no pressure signs at all. Creedmoor over 3000 fps in 26" but saw shiny ejectors at 3040 fps. Not to shabby with a 0.330 G7.

Can't wait to get the bullets out to those who've ordered and have 25 cal start showing up in the winner's circles.

 

[MachoKing]

Bartlein, Krieger, Rock Creek, Lilja, X-Caliber, Schneider, and I'm sure a few others are able to make 1:7 - 1:8" twist blanks (think 1:7-1:7.5" for non-magnums under 3200 fps and 1:7.75-1:8" for magnums over 3200 fps).

We've ordered 175 barrels and will be ordering more, even including some carbon fiber barrel blanks.

We have a few Rock, Bart, and Krieger Barrels left. Plenty of Liljas and X-Cals which are on firesale. Even have 25x47 and 25 Creedmoor reamers.

All in all a 25x47 and 25 Creedmoor are going to make some slick low recoil match/hunting rigs. Our 26" 25x47 ran up to 2950 fps with no pressure signs at all. Creedmoor over 3000 fps in 26" but saw shiny ejectors at 3040 fps. Not to shabby with a 0.330 G7.

Can't wait to get the bullets out to those who've ordered and have 25 cal start showing up in the winner's circles.

I'd love to see what these bullets could do in a 25-06AI or a 257 Roy.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Berger 115 match hunter over 40 grs of reloader 17 - results: avg velocity 3056 FPS, very surprising number for a cartridge that came out in 1915!!!
SB

No kidding. I was getting less than that with 50.0 IMR 4350, 117 SGK out of a .25/06.

 

[RTH1800]

1920 Was not the "first short action" The 98 Mauser was made in a "Kurtz" form from 1898. Kurtz is German for short.
I have several of the '98 Kurtz actions. Most are chambered for 250 Savage or some wildcat from it. I really like the fast twist 6.5x250. I have two of them. Shoot 140-160 grain bullets.

I would not go so far as to call the '98 the first short action. '93 and '95 Mausers were not full length but not as short as the Kurtz. Many folks called them intermediate actions. They were 7x57 M length. Others may have proceeded them but I cannot recall off the top of my head.
True Kurtz actioins were chambered in 250 Savage, 6.5x54 Kurtz, 8.15x47R and 8x51 Kurtz from the Obenrdorf Mauser Werke.

Savage bolt actions were not called cheap due to longevity issues, they were just plan looking, cheaply made from stamped parts, designed for low cost of manufacture and had ugly stocks etc.

The '99 which was a work of art in mechanical design and very well made. Many of them shot like a good bolt action target rifle. .250 Savages were really known for that. The ones I have had were no exception.

 

[sav338lapua]

rth1800 yes i miss spoke in that i meant first short action American bolt action, as the other guys were using modified military actions.
big yes for the 99, mine is very accurate, and again another first, the bolt actually locking against its rear face and the receiver or a direct lockup.
as far as looks, i haven't found a single animal that complained about the looks of savage rifles!!! LOL!!! you have to remember the times of these rifles manufacture too as the 1920's ended when the markets crashed. more so one mans garbage is anothers treasure. i think the AK-47 is a beautiful rifle in looks but more so in function.
SB

 

[sandwarrior]

I didn't realize they had built that many kurz rifles back in the day. That would've been the cats ass post WWII.

Added: corrected my post to say Did Not

 

[sav338lapua]

hey mike_in_fl, yes i was very surprised but then again i wasn't after working with varget with the lighter bullets it really peaked my interest in trying other powders. but when you look at the 250 it has to be more effecient which i think the numbers show. if i can get 2850 to 2900 with these 131 gr bullets i think the 250 would be giving the new 6mm and the 6.5mm a run for their money as a PRS cartridge, not to mention its already a well known hunting cartridge with the numbers im seeing it will be an even better cartridge for hunting too.
SB

 

[Mike_in_FL]

hey mike_in_fl, yes i was very surprised but then again i wasn't after working with varget with the lighter bullets it really peaked my interest in trying other powders. but when you look at the 250 it has to be more effecient which i think the numbers show. if i can get 2850 to 2900 with these 131 gr bullets i think the 250 would be giving the new 6mm and the 6.5mm a run for their money as a PRS cartridge, not to mention its already a well known hunting cartridge with the numbers im seeing it will be an even better cartridge for hunting too.
SB

Another place this would shine is in NRA high power sporting rifle where you have to make weight like a hunting rifle, 9.5 lb. Not much recoil with the lighter bullets when shooting the rapids in position with a sling. .223 is a good cheater but a cluster to load in a blind magazine compared to the .250.

 

[sav338lapua]

Hey mike absolutely and I was also thinking of that too, but the great part is it gives people another factory load to use. And it's plenty accurate with 100gr Sierra MK's at 3050 FPS!!!!

 

[sav338lapua]

man o man i'm really ready to get a new barrel and let this 1915 cartridge come back alive even more than i have already!!!!! i think the 250 savage would be the perfect replacement cartridge for the military!!!!
SB

 

[gemihur]

.... A little 250/3000 that is as sweet to shoot as it is to look at ....