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Advanced Marksmanship .
- Thread starter 308sako
- Start date
Re: To clean or not to clean
My rifle shoots WAY better when it has been fouled. The accuracy continues to improve the more it shoots. I let the accuracy tell me what is going on with the rifle before I do anything to it.
I printed a group target just to prove this idea out to myself. The groups got tighter as I shot, and ended up shooting my best 5-shot group of my life with a dirty bore. Good enough for me.
DK
My rifle shoots WAY better when it has been fouled. The accuracy continues to improve the more it shoots. I let the accuracy tell me what is going on with the rifle before I do anything to it.
I printed a group target just to prove this idea out to myself. The groups got tighter as I shot, and ended up shooting my best 5-shot group of my life with a dirty bore. Good enough for me.
DK
Re: To clean or not to clean
No reason to clean if the rifle doesn't need it.
My 700 with almost 3K down the factory tube shoots better when it's fouled.
So do our new LTR's.
I would say that this is an area of Knowledge rather than opinion.
No reason to clean if the rifle doesn't need it.
My 700 with almost 3K down the factory tube shoots better when it's fouled.
So do our new LTR's.
I would say that this is an area of Knowledge rather than opinion.
Re: To clean or not to clean
After shooting is done for the day I wipe down the bolt, lug area and spin a larger patch around in the chamber. I don't touch the bore until the rifle starts to not shoot well.
After shooting is done for the day I wipe down the bolt, lug area and spin a larger patch around in the chamber. I don't touch the bore until the rifle starts to not shoot well.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Don't touch it until accuracy drops off, however many rounds that may be, or until some type of environmental situation would require me to, like the rifle getting wet.
Don't touch it until accuracy drops off, however many rounds that may be, or until some type of environmental situation would require me to, like the rifle getting wet.
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I am fairly confident that this is an area of opinion rather than knowledge I would be interested in hearing opinions on cleaning a .308 Winchester's bore for the best longterm performance of the rifle.
</div></div>
Not nearly enough information about intended use , type of bullets used ( moly , naked , etc)
You clean as the use dictates a guy using a target 6m PPC in BR with naked bullets is going to clean way more often than a guy using a hunting rifle to cull vermin and using moly or TD coated bullets .
So the pole type response required is dumb.
All I can do is agree with HateCa as the best response.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I am fairly confident that this is an area of opinion rather than knowledge I would be interested in hearing opinions on cleaning a .308 Winchester's bore for the best longterm performance of the rifle.
</div></div>
Not nearly enough information about intended use , type of bullets used ( moly , naked , etc)
You clean as the use dictates a guy using a target 6m PPC in BR with naked bullets is going to clean way more often than a guy using a hunting rifle to cull vermin and using moly or TD coated bullets .
So the pole type response required is dumb.
All I can do is agree with HateCa as the best response.
Re: To clean or not to clean
This is an eye opener for me.I have a .243 700 and just took it for granted that after every range session it had to be cleaned spotless for optimum accuaracy.So after about 20 handloads I would keep cleaning it until the patches run totally clean.I'm gonna shoot it now till the accuaracy falls off.cheers.
This is an eye opener for me.I have a .243 700 and just took it for granted that after every range session it had to be cleaned spotless for optimum accuaracy.So after about 20 handloads I would keep cleaning it until the patches run totally clean.I'm gonna shoot it now till the accuaracy falls off.cheers.
Re: To clean or not to clean
I always do before I put it away for more than a week.I thought I had to because the powder was bad to leave in there. So it's not a big deal unless it's corrosive military stuff.
I always do before I put it away for more than a week.I thought I had to because the powder was bad to leave in there. So it's not a big deal unless it's corrosive military stuff.
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: michplinker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always do before I put it away for more than a week.I thought I had to because the powder was bad to leave in there. So it's not a big deal unless it's corrosive military stuff. </div></div>
The powder or carbon will attract and hold moisture. If the rifle doesn’t get wet and you can control the moisture then you should be fine. Corrosive ammo is another story.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: michplinker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always do before I put it away for more than a week.I thought I had to because the powder was bad to leave in there. So it's not a big deal unless it's corrosive military stuff. </div></div>
The powder or carbon will attract and hold moisture. If the rifle doesn’t get wet and you can control the moisture then you should be fine. Corrosive ammo is another story.
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The powder or carbon will attract and hold moisture. If the rifle doesn’t get wet and you can control the moisture then you should be fine. Corrosive ammo is another story. </div></div>
I don't clean much anymore but often worry about the long term storage (maybe 2-3 mnths) of a fouled barrel if I'm not shooting lets say during the winter, but they would be stored in a controlled safe. Summertime most rifles get shot on a weekly basis so its not a concern
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The powder or carbon will attract and hold moisture. If the rifle doesn’t get wet and you can control the moisture then you should be fine. Corrosive ammo is another story. </div></div>
I don't clean much anymore but often worry about the long term storage (maybe 2-3 mnths) of a fouled barrel if I'm not shooting lets say during the winter, but they would be stored in a controlled safe. Summertime most rifles get shot on a weekly basis so its not a concern
Re: To clean or not to clean
I learned the hard way about cleaning a rifle after every shooting trip.
Lets just say the pocket wasn't as heavy anymore.
I learned the hard way about cleaning a rifle after every shooting trip.
Lets just say the pocket wasn't as heavy anymore.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Rob01's way is good.
It really depends on the barrel because thay are all different (like poeple).
One barrel may need cleaning after 10-20rds but another could 300-500rds.
If the barrel is made by one of the better makers like Kreiger and broken in properly, then the higher number would be in order. If it a factory barrel then it's could be a crap shoot.
Rob01's way is good.
It really depends on the barrel because thay are all different (like poeple).
One barrel may need cleaning after 10-20rds but another could 300-500rds.
If the barrel is made by one of the better makers like Kreiger and broken in properly, then the higher number would be in order. If it a factory barrel then it's could be a crap shoot.
Re: To clean or not to clean
I clean with foam (Outer's, it works well, and is readily available locally) after shooting, since I'm a (sometimes) weekend shooter. No brush (maybe nylon to spread the solvent better), no abrasives. I leave some fouling in there, but get out the main crud. Always finish with a layer of oil in the bore which get single patched before resuming firing. Just trying to reduce the tendency to pit while the rifle is laid up for weeks at a time. Works out to about each 100rd or less.
Greg
I clean with foam (Outer's, it works well, and is readily available locally) after shooting, since I'm a (sometimes) weekend shooter. No brush (maybe nylon to spread the solvent better), no abrasives. I leave some fouling in there, but get out the main crud. Always finish with a layer of oil in the bore which get single patched before resuming firing. Just trying to reduce the tendency to pit while the rifle is laid up for weeks at a time. Works out to about each 100rd or less.
Greg
Re: To clean or not to clean
My last outing shooting my 223 resulted in .3's. Numerous .3's on a calm day, no wind and a slight drizzle. It was shot from a bench using bags.
At that point the rifle had at least 250 rounds down the tube and the bore hadn't been cleaned in at least one month and probably a little longer.
I really cleaned it and was lucky to get groups twice that size. I will be fouling the bore some more as soon as it warms and try it again.
Dolomite
My last outing shooting my 223 resulted in .3's. Numerous .3's on a calm day, no wind and a slight drizzle. It was shot from a bench using bags.
At that point the rifle had at least 250 rounds down the tube and the bore hadn't been cleaned in at least one month and probably a little longer.
I really cleaned it and was lucky to get groups twice that size. I will be fouling the bore some more as soon as it warms and try it again.
Dolomite
Re: To clean or not to clean
I guess I may have been doing it wrong all along. Since I was a little kid my dad put it into my head that everytime a gun is shot it is cleaned before putting it back into the safe. I will try the fouling method and see if that improves my 308
I guess I may have been doing it wrong all along. Since I was a little kid my dad put it into my head that everytime a gun is shot it is cleaned before putting it back into the safe. I will try the fouling method and see if that improves my 308
Re: To clean or not to clean
In a match, I'll shoot the entire weekend and not clean (up to 175 rounds). I try to attend a match with at least 5-10 rounds on the barrel. Between matches, I may not clean at all until a few days before the match (I'll still refoul the barrel before the match). My thoughts are that I don't want to find the "too dirty" spot in a match, so if I show up with 5-10 rounds on it, I know I'm good. In England this year, I cleaned most days because we had a blow off period in the morning. A competitor that beat me didn't clean at all for the two plus week match (he had another trick that I also now use). I find that I have the most consistency when I use something like 50BMG cleaner or something similar that works well on copper. I can kind of "feel" when the copper is removed and I know I'm done cleaning.
In a match, I'll shoot the entire weekend and not clean (up to 175 rounds). I try to attend a match with at least 5-10 rounds on the barrel. Between matches, I may not clean at all until a few days before the match (I'll still refoul the barrel before the match). My thoughts are that I don't want to find the "too dirty" spot in a match, so if I show up with 5-10 rounds on it, I know I'm good. In England this year, I cleaned most days because we had a blow off period in the morning. A competitor that beat me didn't clean at all for the two plus week match (he had another trick that I also now use). I find that I have the most consistency when I use something like 50BMG cleaner or something similar that works well on copper. I can kind of "feel" when the copper is removed and I know I'm done cleaning.
Re: To clean or not to clean
This oughta help:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486&perpage=50&pagenumber=1
(worth registering just to see the pics)
This oughta help:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486&perpage=50&pagenumber=1
(worth registering just to see the pics)
Re: To clean or not to clean
Don't fix it if its not broke. 300 rounds MINIMUM for me. (GAP TIS w/24" Mike Rock barrel)
Don't fix it if its not broke. 300 rounds MINIMUM for me. (GAP TIS w/24" Mike Rock barrel)
Re: To clean or not to clean
As someone who loves to be lazy, I find the fouling method works perfectly. The less of my time, attention and effort required, the better. Just enjoy it and put it away dirty. This method may apply to more than just rifles.
As someone who loves to be lazy, I find the fouling method works perfectly. The less of my time, attention and effort required, the better. Just enjoy it and put it away dirty. This method may apply to more than just rifles.
Re: To clean or not to clean
I've shot many thousands of rounds in all of my guns and I've never once seen any of them become more accurate after being rigorously cleaned. In fact, the cleaner the bore the more likely I have to shoot it a few times and re-foul the barrel before it becomes consistent.
When I do clean these bores, they usually just get a bore snake. If I'm in the mood, they may get an cleaning rod for a few strokes. I used to clean barrels more often as that is what everyone is told to do. But my experience has shown it to be largely a waste of time and in many cases probably counter-productive. I now clean my barrels as little as possible and the actions when they are starting to become grimy or perhaps every few hundred rounds, whichever comes first. Even then I don't go overboard with chemical cleaners and always keep in mind that guns are machines and most machines do not work better when being disassembled and put back together constantly.
I've shot many thousands of rounds in all of my guns and I've never once seen any of them become more accurate after being rigorously cleaned. In fact, the cleaner the bore the more likely I have to shoot it a few times and re-foul the barrel before it becomes consistent.
When I do clean these bores, they usually just get a bore snake. If I'm in the mood, they may get an cleaning rod for a few strokes. I used to clean barrels more often as that is what everyone is told to do. But my experience has shown it to be largely a waste of time and in many cases probably counter-productive. I now clean my barrels as little as possible and the actions when they are starting to become grimy or perhaps every few hundred rounds, whichever comes first. Even then I don't go overboard with chemical cleaners and always keep in mind that guns are machines and most machines do not work better when being disassembled and put back together constantly.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Stupid question, but how can I tell if my ammo is corrosive before the obvious occurs? I shoot a lot of surplus. LC isn't corrosive is it?
Stupid question, but how can I tell if my ammo is corrosive before the obvious occurs? I shoot a lot of surplus. LC isn't corrosive is it?
Re: To clean or not to clean
same here always thought that the clean every time was the way now patch is all never a brush
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWILLIAMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I may have been doing it wrong all along. Since I was a little kid my dad put it into my head that everytime a gun is shot it is cleaned before putting it back into the safe. I will try the fouling method and see if that improves my 308 </div></div>
This is my very first time going with the no clean method, and results so far would seem to support a greater consistency shot to shot. Accuracy is very good, so can't complain that something is missing on that end.
I am however going through Hoppe's withdrawl. </div></div>
same here always thought that the clean every time was the way now patch is all never a brush
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWILLIAMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I may have been doing it wrong all along. Since I was a little kid my dad put it into my head that everytime a gun is shot it is cleaned before putting it back into the safe. I will try the fouling method and see if that improves my 308 </div></div>
This is my very first time going with the no clean method, and results so far would seem to support a greater consistency shot to shot. Accuracy is very good, so can't complain that something is missing on that end.
I am however going through Hoppe's withdrawl. </div></div>
Re: To clean or not to clean
I have always cleaned under 50 rds and use mostly foam. After reading all the above I plan on taking my 308 to 500 rds before cleaning, this should be a eye opener one way or the other.
I have always cleaned under 50 rds and use mostly foam. After reading all the above I plan on taking my 308 to 500 rds before cleaning, this should be a eye opener one way or the other.
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A competitor that beat me didn't clean at all for the two plus week match (he had another trick that I also now use). </div></div>
And that trick is...?
I used to clean religiously after each range trip, and sometimes between stages at a match. No more! I clean when accuracy falls off, or if I'm getting close to the magic number and there's a match coming. That way I have time enough to refoul the barrel so it's back to it's Happy Place during the match.
Helps that I'm lazy.
1911fan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A competitor that beat me didn't clean at all for the two plus week match (he had another trick that I also now use). </div></div>
And that trick is...?
I used to clean religiously after each range trip, and sometimes between stages at a match. No more! I clean when accuracy falls off, or if I'm getting close to the magic number and there's a match coming. That way I have time enough to refoul the barrel so it's back to it's Happy Place during the match.
Helps that I'm lazy.
1911fan
Re: To clean or not to clean
I used to clean ever 200 rounds or so because I felt that accuracy was dropping off. I then realized that it was not the accuracy that was dropping off, but I was slipping on the necessary details to precision shooting (ie losing the bipod properly, good trigger control, and good follow through).
I now do a very light barrel cleaning after 1000 to 1500 rounds
I used to clean ever 200 rounds or so because I felt that accuracy was dropping off. I then realized that it was not the accuracy that was dropping off, but I was slipping on the necessary details to precision shooting (ie losing the bipod properly, good trigger control, and good follow through).
I now do a very light barrel cleaning after 1000 to 1500 rounds
Re: To clean or not to clean
PM sent to USFR. Hopefully he can share the trick.
Always a learning student,
Shawdowmaker
PM sent to USFR. Hopefully he can share the trick.
Always a learning student,
Shawdowmaker
Re: To clean or not to clean
Wow this post was a real eye opener.
I was always taught to clean your guns if there not going to be used regularly. Say, if not for a week. Ive gotten lazy before and noticed my accuracy was better, but i never contributed it to a dirty gun. I'm gonna have to try this out.
Does it hold true with gas guns too, something like a M4?
I imagine you would still want to wipe down the bolt because that can cause jamming, right?
Wow this post was a real eye opener.
I was always taught to clean your guns if there not going to be used regularly. Say, if not for a week. Ive gotten lazy before and noticed my accuracy was better, but i never contributed it to a dirty gun. I'm gonna have to try this out.
Does it hold true with gas guns too, something like a M4?
I imagine you would still want to wipe down the bolt because that can cause jamming, right?
Re: To clean or not to clean
Always cleaned after every training session to be ready for call out status as I was trained. One of the guys I trained with, DKSD39, never cleaned until accuracy dropped off. Learned the hard way he was correct. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Ended up buying his gap and 540 rounds later, still hav'nt cleaned it. Still a one hole wonder at a 100yds on a good shooting day. He still regrets selling that gun!
Always cleaned after every training session to be ready for call out status as I was trained. One of the guys I trained with, DKSD39, never cleaned until accuracy dropped off. Learned the hard way he was correct. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Ended up buying his gap and 540 rounds later, still hav'nt cleaned it. Still a one hole wonder at a 100yds on a good shooting day. He still regrets selling that gun!
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: viav13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow this post was a real eye opener.
I was always taught to clean your guns if there not going to be used regularly. Say, if not for a week. Ive gotten lazy before and noticed my accuracy was better, but i never contributed it to a dirty gun. I'm gonna have to try this out.
Does it hold true with gas guns too, something like a M4?
I imagine you would still want to wipe down the bolt because that can cause jamming, right? </div></div>
Here here. I can barely stomach the notion of putting my bolt action baby back in the case for storage all filthy - but maybe.. *maybe*, I'd do it.
But my AR? Yeesh. What do you all do with your gas guns?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: viav13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow this post was a real eye opener.
I was always taught to clean your guns if there not going to be used regularly. Say, if not for a week. Ive gotten lazy before and noticed my accuracy was better, but i never contributed it to a dirty gun. I'm gonna have to try this out.
Does it hold true with gas guns too, something like a M4?
I imagine you would still want to wipe down the bolt because that can cause jamming, right? </div></div>
Here here. I can barely stomach the notion of putting my bolt action baby back in the case for storage all filthy - but maybe.. *maybe*, I'd do it.
But my AR? Yeesh. What do you all do with your gas guns?
Re: To clean or not to clean
like many here i used to scrub and scrub,.17hmr > .308. i figured out the hard way and after selling many "shit shooters" that it was the over cleaning
i now NEVER use a brush only a jag and patch and sweets 7.62 solvent, i still clean it after every shoot (2 rounds or 20 rounds) but its only a light clean and i do it untill the patches come out clean, some where around 3> 5 patches in the .308 (tikka t3 supervarmint .308)
accuracy is always in the .5 MOA Area and some times comes down to the .25 mark but only when the wind is calm and i do my part.
i am tempted to not patch out the rifles (mainly .223 and .308) and see how things go but as i live right on the coast i have had huge problems with rust and if i dont clean it it rusts, so i guess im just in the habit but i still believe in dont clean it untill you need to...
like many here i used to scrub and scrub,.17hmr > .308. i figured out the hard way and after selling many "shit shooters" that it was the over cleaning
i now NEVER use a brush only a jag and patch and sweets 7.62 solvent, i still clean it after every shoot (2 rounds or 20 rounds) but its only a light clean and i do it untill the patches come out clean, some where around 3> 5 patches in the .308 (tikka t3 supervarmint .308)
accuracy is always in the .5 MOA Area and some times comes down to the .25 mark but only when the wind is calm and i do my part.
i am tempted to not patch out the rifles (mainly .223 and .308) and see how things go but as i live right on the coast i have had huge problems with rust and if i dont clean it it rusts, so i guess im just in the habit but i still believe in dont clean it untill you need to...
Re: To clean or not to clean
If you do clean, remove the carbon and copper and then fire 3-15 rounds (depends on your barrel) to put the copper back. I go typically 150 rounds before cleaning and sometimes up to 250. With a clean barrel at longer distance (600-1000 yds), I'm about 1.5 MOA low and level by about 3-4 shots. Going to a match with ~5-10 shots on the barrel will have my first shot very close to level with the following shots. Between match days, just run a DRY and CLEAN boresnake through the barrel to remove carbon only. It seems to work well for me. Just my thoughts on the issue of cleaning barrels. I used to feel like I had to clean after each string in a match. It took a while, but I found out that it was hurting my scores.
If you do clean, remove the carbon and copper and then fire 3-15 rounds (depends on your barrel) to put the copper back. I go typically 150 rounds before cleaning and sometimes up to 250. With a clean barrel at longer distance (600-1000 yds), I'm about 1.5 MOA low and level by about 3-4 shots. Going to a match with ~5-10 shots on the barrel will have my first shot very close to level with the following shots. Between match days, just run a DRY and CLEAN boresnake through the barrel to remove carbon only. It seems to work well for me. Just my thoughts on the issue of cleaning barrels. I used to feel like I had to clean after each string in a match. It took a while, but I found out that it was hurting my scores.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Still haven't heard about AR/gas gun users-
You apply the same philosophy to your ARs?
Still haven't heard about AR/gas gun users-
You apply the same philosophy to your ARs?
Re: To clean or not to clean
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still haven't heard about AR/gas gun users-
You apply the same philosophy to your ARs? </div></div>
i shoot suppressed with my AR, I just make sure and keep my bolt open asap after a shooting session but I still only clean the bore every 2-300 shots (as a precaution)
I do however take out and clean the shit out of the bolt/carrier and make sure it gets a nice oil squirt.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still haven't heard about AR/gas gun users-
You apply the same philosophy to your ARs? </div></div>
i shoot suppressed with my AR, I just make sure and keep my bolt open asap after a shooting session but I still only clean the bore every 2-300 shots (as a precaution)
I do however take out and clean the shit out of the bolt/carrier and make sure it gets a nice oil squirt.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Sniper training instruction, FM23-10:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> M24 SWS Cleaning Procedures. The M24 SWS must always be cleaned before and after firing.
(1) The SWS must always be cleaned before firing. Firing a weapon with a dirty bore or chamber will multiply and speed up any corrosive action. Oil in the bore and chamber of a SWS will cause pressures to vary and first-round accuracy will suffer. Clean and dry the bore and chamber before departure on a mission and use extreme care to keep the SWS clean and dry en route to the objective area. Firing a SWS with oil or moisture in the bore will cause smoke that can disclose the firing position.
(2) The SWS must be cleaned after firing since firing produces deposits of primer fouling, powder ashes, carbon, and metal fouling. Although ammunition has a noncorrosive primer that makes cleaning easier, the primer residue can still cause rust if not removed. Firing leaves two major types of fouling that require different solvents to remove carbon fouling and copper jacket fouling. The SWS must be cleaned within a reasonable time after firing. Use common sense when cleaning between rounds of firing. Repeated firing will not injure the weapon if it is properly cleaned before the first round is fired.
(3) Lay the SWS on a table or other flat surface with the muzzle away from the body and the sling down. Make sure not to strike the muzzle or telescopic sight on the table. The cleaning cradle is ideal for holding the SWS.
(4) Always clean the bore from the chamber toward the muzzle, attempting to keep the muzzle lower than the chamber to prevent the bore cleaner from running into the receiver or firing mechanism. Be careful not to get any type of fluid between the stock and receiver. If fluid does collect between the stock and receiver, the receiver will slide on the bedding every time the SWS recoils, thereby decreasing accuracy and increasing wear and tear on the receiver and bedding material.
(5) Always use a bore guide to keep the cleaning rod centered in the bore during the cleaning process.
(6) Push several patches saturated with carbon cleaner through the barrel to loosen the powder fouling and begin the solvent action on the copper jacket fouling.
(7) Saturate the bronze bristle brush (NEVER USE STAINLESS STEEL BORE BRUSHES-THEY WILL SCRATCH THE BARREL) with carbon cleaner (shake the bottle regularly to keep the ingredients mixed) using the medicine dropper to prevent contamination of the carbon cleaner. Run the bore brush through at least 20 times. Make sure the bore brush passes completely through the barrel before reversing its direction; otherwise, the bristles will break off.
(8) Use a pistol cleaning rod and a .45 caliber bronze bristle bore brush, clean the chamber by rotating the patch-wrapped brush 8 to 10 times. DO NOT scrub the brush in and out of the chamber.
(9) Push several patches saturated with carbon cleaner through the bore to push out the loosened powder fouling.
(10) Continue using the bore brush and patches with carbon cleaner until the patches have no traces of black/gray powder fouling and are green/blue. This indicates that the powder fouling has been removed and only copper fouling remains. Remove the carbon cleaner from the barrel with several clean patches. This is important since solvents should never be mixed in the barrel.
(11) Push several patches saturated with copper cleaner through the bore, using a scrubbing motion to work the solvent into the copper. Let the solvent work for 10 to 15 minutes (NEVER LEAVE THE COPPER CLEANER IN THE BARREL FOR MORE THAN 30 MINUTES).
(12) While waiting, scrub the bolt with the toothbrush moistened with carbon cleaner and wipe down the remainder of the weapon with a cloth.
(13) Push several patches saturated with copper cleaner through the barrel. The patches will appear dark blue at first, indicating the amount of copper fouling removed. Continue this process until the saturated patches have no traces of blue/green. If the patches continue to come out dark blue after several treatments with copper cleaner, use the bronze brush saturated with copper cleaner to increase the scrubbing action. Be sure to clean the bronze brush thoroughly afterwards with hot running water (quick scrub cleaner/degreaser is preferred) as the copper cleaner acts upon its bristles as well.
(14) When the barrel is clean, dry it with several tight fitting patches. Also, dry the chamber using the .45 caliber bronze bristle bore brush with a patch wrapped around it.
(15) Run a patch saturated with rust prevention (not CLP) down the barrel and chamber if the weapon is to be stored for any length of time. Stainless steel barrels are not immune from corrosion. Be sure to remove the preservative by running dry patches through the bore and chamber before firing.
(16) Place a small amount of rifle grease on the rear surfaces of the bolt lugs. This will prevent galling of the metal surfaces.
(17) Wipe down the exterior of the weapon (if it is not covered with camouflage paint) with a CLP-saturated cloth to protect it during storage.
d. Barrel Break-in Procedure. To increase barrel life, accuracy, and reduce cleaning requirement the following barrel break-in procedure must be used. This procedure is best accomplished when the SWS is new or newly rebarreled. The break-in period is accomplished by polishing the barrel surface under heat and pressure. This procedure should only be done by qualified personnel. The barrel must be cleaned of all fouling, both powder and copper. The barrel is dried, and one round is fired. The barrel is then cleaned again using carbon cleaner and then copper cleaner. The barrel must be cleaned again, and another round is fired. The procedure must be repeated for a total of 10 rounds. After the 10th round the SWS is then tested for groups by firing three-round shot groups, with a complete barrel cleaning between shot groups for a total of five shot groups (15 rounds total).
The barrel is now broken in, and will provide superior accuracy and a longer usable barrel life. Additionally, the barrel will be easier to clean because the surface is smoother. Again the barrel should be cleaned at least every 50 rounds to increase the barrel life.
</div></div>
When Uncle Sam changes his Doctrine, I'll change mine.
Greg
Sniper training instruction, FM23-10:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> M24 SWS Cleaning Procedures. The M24 SWS must always be cleaned before and after firing.
(1) The SWS must always be cleaned before firing. Firing a weapon with a dirty bore or chamber will multiply and speed up any corrosive action. Oil in the bore and chamber of a SWS will cause pressures to vary and first-round accuracy will suffer. Clean and dry the bore and chamber before departure on a mission and use extreme care to keep the SWS clean and dry en route to the objective area. Firing a SWS with oil or moisture in the bore will cause smoke that can disclose the firing position.
(2) The SWS must be cleaned after firing since firing produces deposits of primer fouling, powder ashes, carbon, and metal fouling. Although ammunition has a noncorrosive primer that makes cleaning easier, the primer residue can still cause rust if not removed. Firing leaves two major types of fouling that require different solvents to remove carbon fouling and copper jacket fouling. The SWS must be cleaned within a reasonable time after firing. Use common sense when cleaning between rounds of firing. Repeated firing will not injure the weapon if it is properly cleaned before the first round is fired.
(3) Lay the SWS on a table or other flat surface with the muzzle away from the body and the sling down. Make sure not to strike the muzzle or telescopic sight on the table. The cleaning cradle is ideal for holding the SWS.
(4) Always clean the bore from the chamber toward the muzzle, attempting to keep the muzzle lower than the chamber to prevent the bore cleaner from running into the receiver or firing mechanism. Be careful not to get any type of fluid between the stock and receiver. If fluid does collect between the stock and receiver, the receiver will slide on the bedding every time the SWS recoils, thereby decreasing accuracy and increasing wear and tear on the receiver and bedding material.
(5) Always use a bore guide to keep the cleaning rod centered in the bore during the cleaning process.
(6) Push several patches saturated with carbon cleaner through the barrel to loosen the powder fouling and begin the solvent action on the copper jacket fouling.
(7) Saturate the bronze bristle brush (NEVER USE STAINLESS STEEL BORE BRUSHES-THEY WILL SCRATCH THE BARREL) with carbon cleaner (shake the bottle regularly to keep the ingredients mixed) using the medicine dropper to prevent contamination of the carbon cleaner. Run the bore brush through at least 20 times. Make sure the bore brush passes completely through the barrel before reversing its direction; otherwise, the bristles will break off.
(8) Use a pistol cleaning rod and a .45 caliber bronze bristle bore brush, clean the chamber by rotating the patch-wrapped brush 8 to 10 times. DO NOT scrub the brush in and out of the chamber.
(9) Push several patches saturated with carbon cleaner through the bore to push out the loosened powder fouling.
(10) Continue using the bore brush and patches with carbon cleaner until the patches have no traces of black/gray powder fouling and are green/blue. This indicates that the powder fouling has been removed and only copper fouling remains. Remove the carbon cleaner from the barrel with several clean patches. This is important since solvents should never be mixed in the barrel.
(11) Push several patches saturated with copper cleaner through the bore, using a scrubbing motion to work the solvent into the copper. Let the solvent work for 10 to 15 minutes (NEVER LEAVE THE COPPER CLEANER IN THE BARREL FOR MORE THAN 30 MINUTES).
(12) While waiting, scrub the bolt with the toothbrush moistened with carbon cleaner and wipe down the remainder of the weapon with a cloth.
(13) Push several patches saturated with copper cleaner through the barrel. The patches will appear dark blue at first, indicating the amount of copper fouling removed. Continue this process until the saturated patches have no traces of blue/green. If the patches continue to come out dark blue after several treatments with copper cleaner, use the bronze brush saturated with copper cleaner to increase the scrubbing action. Be sure to clean the bronze brush thoroughly afterwards with hot running water (quick scrub cleaner/degreaser is preferred) as the copper cleaner acts upon its bristles as well.
(14) When the barrel is clean, dry it with several tight fitting patches. Also, dry the chamber using the .45 caliber bronze bristle bore brush with a patch wrapped around it.
(15) Run a patch saturated with rust prevention (not CLP) down the barrel and chamber if the weapon is to be stored for any length of time. Stainless steel barrels are not immune from corrosion. Be sure to remove the preservative by running dry patches through the bore and chamber before firing.
(16) Place a small amount of rifle grease on the rear surfaces of the bolt lugs. This will prevent galling of the metal surfaces.
(17) Wipe down the exterior of the weapon (if it is not covered with camouflage paint) with a CLP-saturated cloth to protect it during storage.
d. Barrel Break-in Procedure. To increase barrel life, accuracy, and reduce cleaning requirement the following barrel break-in procedure must be used. This procedure is best accomplished when the SWS is new or newly rebarreled. The break-in period is accomplished by polishing the barrel surface under heat and pressure. This procedure should only be done by qualified personnel. The barrel must be cleaned of all fouling, both powder and copper. The barrel is dried, and one round is fired. The barrel is then cleaned again using carbon cleaner and then copper cleaner. The barrel must be cleaned again, and another round is fired. The procedure must be repeated for a total of 10 rounds. After the 10th round the SWS is then tested for groups by firing three-round shot groups, with a complete barrel cleaning between shot groups for a total of five shot groups (15 rounds total).
The barrel is now broken in, and will provide superior accuracy and a longer usable barrel life. Additionally, the barrel will be easier to clean because the surface is smoother. Again the barrel should be cleaned at least every 50 rounds to increase the barrel life.
</div></div>
When Uncle Sam changes his Doctrine, I'll change mine.
Greg
Re: To clean or not to clean
Greg, I am betting you were in the military long enough to figure out that just because Uncle Sam does it, doesn't make it a good idea.
I seem to remember being taught to attack an M16 with a steel cleaning rod and to scrape the carbon off of the crown.
Greg, I am betting you were in the military long enough to figure out that just because Uncle Sam does it, doesn't make it a good idea.
I seem to remember being taught to attack an M16 with a steel cleaning rod and to scrape the carbon off of the crown.
Re: To clean or not to clean
Yeah, I'm always torn between the allure of "mil spec!" and, oh I dunno, films like Pentagon Wars and associated reports on our government's fine procurement and operating procedures
.
Yeah, I'm always torn between the allure of "mil spec!" and, oh I dunno, films like Pentagon Wars and associated reports on our government's fine procurement and operating procedures
Re: To clean or not to clean
Maybe.
I did a lot of net search and the like for the previous response, including training doctrines that are as recent as 2009 (e.g. FMFM 0-8). I omitted most of them because I figured I'd already gotten more than wordy enough.
They all stress that proper cleaning and maintenance are crucial to the reliable operation of a combatant's armaments.
I too had reservations about some of the directions I received (i.e. the use of Hoppe's #9 in the gas system of the M-14 is strictly forbidden), but have noted over time, that if a thing's dead wrong, it gets cut from the curriculum. I seriously doubt that rifle cleaning and maintenance is something that's going to be perpetuated simply for tradition's sake.
I don't intend to tell others what to do, only what I'd do.
Greg
Maybe.
I did a lot of net search and the like for the previous response, including training doctrines that are as recent as 2009 (e.g. FMFM 0-8). I omitted most of them because I figured I'd already gotten more than wordy enough.
They all stress that proper cleaning and maintenance are crucial to the reliable operation of a combatant's armaments.
I too had reservations about some of the directions I received (i.e. the use of Hoppe's #9 in the gas system of the M-14 is strictly forbidden), but have noted over time, that if a thing's dead wrong, it gets cut from the curriculum. I seriously doubt that rifle cleaning and maintenance is something that's going to be perpetuated simply for tradition's sake.
I don't intend to tell others what to do, only what I'd do.
Greg
Re: To clean or not to clean
I can't say if it helps or not but you can believe this or not. I've shot metallic silhouette since the early 80's with multiple handguns out to 220 yards and out to 1000 yards with speciality pistols and can count on my hands how many times I've cleaned my barrels and that was done way long ago when I was experimenting with cast bullets. I do oil and clean the actions when they feel sticky or act up.
Some have set in the safe for years without a round being fired thru them and when taken out and will shoot exactly where they are supposed to on the first shot just the way they were sighted in when they were shot last. Would they shoot better being cleaned? I'm not sure and don't intend on trying to find out, they will still group under an 1" and occasionally 1/2" if I do my part having never had a cleaning patch run down them.
I don't think I'm lazy for not cleaning them but just have found that it is not something that affects the accuracy of my guns. My friends kid me about it all the time but know that mine never get cleaned. From what I've read even some BR shooters have found that their guns group best with a dirty bore.
This is another of those topics that everyone has an opinion on and like everything else, if you have doubts about something then it'll affect the way you use it. I have total confidence in my guns to shoot first shot the same as the last shot and have gotten by being worried about having a dirty bore when I go to a match.
Am I wrong... maybe so but it's not a factor I worry about but if you see me at a match you can be sure that it's with a dirty bore.
Topstrap
I can't say if it helps or not but you can believe this or not. I've shot metallic silhouette since the early 80's with multiple handguns out to 220 yards and out to 1000 yards with speciality pistols and can count on my hands how many times I've cleaned my barrels and that was done way long ago when I was experimenting with cast bullets. I do oil and clean the actions when they feel sticky or act up.
Some have set in the safe for years without a round being fired thru them and when taken out and will shoot exactly where they are supposed to on the first shot just the way they were sighted in when they were shot last. Would they shoot better being cleaned? I'm not sure and don't intend on trying to find out, they will still group under an 1" and occasionally 1/2" if I do my part having never had a cleaning patch run down them.
I don't think I'm lazy for not cleaning them but just have found that it is not something that affects the accuracy of my guns. My friends kid me about it all the time but know that mine never get cleaned. From what I've read even some BR shooters have found that their guns group best with a dirty bore.
This is another of those topics that everyone has an opinion on and like everything else, if you have doubts about something then it'll affect the way you use it. I have total confidence in my guns to shoot first shot the same as the last shot and have gotten by being worried about having a dirty bore when I go to a match.
Am I wrong... maybe so but it's not a factor I worry about but if you see me at a match you can be sure that it's with a dirty bore.
Topstrap
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