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Advanced Marksmanship .

#51
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe.

I did a lot of net search and the like for the previous response, including training doctrines that are as recent as 2009 (e.g. FMFM 0-8). I omitted most of them because I figured I'd already gotten more than wordy enough.

They all stress that proper cleaning and maintenance are crucial to the reliable operation of a combatant's armaments.

I too had reservations about some of the directions I received (i.e. the use of Hoppe's #9 in the gas system of the M-14 is strictly forbidden), but have noted over time, that if a thing's dead wrong, it gets cut from the curriculum. I seriously doubt that rifle cleaning and maintenance is something that's going to be perpetuated simply for tradition's sake.

I don't intend to tell others what to do, only what I'd do.

Greg </div></div>

Oh, I hear ya- I still clean religiously after every use. Just like hearing both sides
smile.gif
 
#52
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I seem to remember being taught to attack an M16 with a steel cleaning rod and to scrape the carbon off of the crown.
</div></div>

that is a question i have thought about for a while...do you fellas with AR's and cans clean the shit off your crown? and if so, with what or how?
 
#53
Re: To clean or not to clean

If we understand what we are trying to do then it makes it a lot easier.
We clean due to dirty/crap, loss of accuracy or storage.
Any other reasons are a waste of time.


oh and bore snakes really have some issues. I wouldn't call a rifle clean if this was all I used
wink.gif
A good rod, guide, brush, solvent and patches do the job
smile.gif
 
#55
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AUJohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh and bore snakes really have some issues. I wouldn't call a rifle clean if this was all I used
wink.gif
A good rod, guide, brush, solvent and patches do the job
smile.gif
</div></div>

I don't think anyone here was suggesting that a bore snake was a good way to properly clean a barrel. If anyone misinterpreted what I said about them, I view it as a way to get the larger chunks of carbon out between cleanings. A match, stainless barrel usually can go hundreds of rounds before needing a cleaning. I would imagine a factory barrel would need cleaning a little more often if it picks up too much copper. So the bore snake can extend the time between cleanings in most cases. Long term storage is totally different. A good rod, guide, solvent, patches, etc are the proper way to really clean a rifle. I'm also not talking about cleaning the bolt, which is a different story.
 
#57
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I seem to remember being taught to attack an M16 with a steel cleaning rod and to scrape the carbon off of the crown.
</div></div>

that is a question i have thought about for a while...do you fellas with AR's and cans clean the shit off your crown? and if so, with what or how? </div></div>

The only time I clean the crown is if I have to remove the muzzle device for some reason. I am sure the muzzle under my Suppressor QD has a nice chunk of carbon stuck on there.

It's not really a big deal. The "crown" is self-cleaning. The muzzle just past the crown will collect carbon and develop a nice carbon ring. It doesn't hurt anything.

Definitely don't stick anything down there.
 
#58
Re: To clean or not to clean

Reading this topic makes me feel like a five year old that just learned that Santa Claus isn't real, or like Saul being confronted on the road to Damascus. Everything I thought I knew was wrong
frown.gif
But at least what I now know will save me a lot of time and effort in the future.
 
#59
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeeDubya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading this topic makes me feel like a five year old that just learned that Santa Claus isn't real, or like Saul being confronted on the road to Damascus. Everything I thought I knew was wrong
frown.gif
But at least what I now know will save me a lot of time and effort in the future. </div></div>


Take the online training offered here on the site. You'll really feel stupid then.
 
#61
Re: To clean or not to clean

I don't think anyones refering to a gas gun but by all means, the moving parts do need attention. I think most people are conserning themselves with the barrel alittle to much thou.
 
#62
Re: To clean or not to clean

I'll go a step farther. As a varmint hunter, I may only shoot 5 rounds in an afternoon. I don't clean the bore. Next trip out, my cold bore shots are always spot on. After 10 or more rounds, I'll clean it. If I'm at the range, I try to clean the bore while it's still warm, then fire two fouling shots and then put the gun in the case. Again, cold bore shots are now spot on, but I'll qualify that to say they're still minute-of-varmint head. Don't want the little bastards spotting my position and returning fire.

Started doing this after reading about an LE tactical shooter who did this because for them, cold bore shots were ultracritical. We've all seen vids of a well trained and capable tactical marksman shooting the gun out of the hands of a suspect or something similar.

I've even heard Los Angeles may start training up markmen to do this in bank robbery scenarios (sorry, just had to toss that in there).

I still contend more barrels are ruined with cleaning rods than fouling(**certain sane conditions apply, your results may vary).

PS:Greg - remember, your Instructions/Cleaning/SWS were created and printed by the lowest bidder
laugh.gif
 
#63
Re: To clean or not to clean

I only clean when it needs it. I prefer to know that my rifle can get a little dirty, and still work fine. I cleaned it just the other day after 27 rounds (well, 28 technically) because I had a case head separation, and I wanted to make sure that there weren't any brass fragments in there, and I also had to clean out the chamber real well since it had a lot of carbon blasted into it.

Biggest factor is me leaving my rifle dirt is the complete lack of a cold bore shot shift. It shoots right where it needs to for each shot, be it cold bore or not. CCB's are a different story, I don't have enough data to make a determination of placement.

Branden
 
#64
Re: To clean or not to clean

Here ya go. I like this guy:

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tips from Brad Sauve, 2004 F-TR Nat'l Champion</span>

With my .308, I tried A LOT of different loads in the first 600 rounds, starting with 42.0-44.5 N150 for the first 200 rounds, then moving to 44.0-45.0 Varget for the next 300 rounds. I tried different bullets (Sierra 175 MKs both moly and naked, Nosler 180gr Ballistic Tips, 175gr Bergers), different cases (Lapua, Federal), primers (Rem, CCI BR, Fed Match), and, oh yes, seating depths (on the lands to 0.10" off, and several distances in between). Even after 500 rounds of testing, I still wasn't satisfied, and frankly, I was growing weary.

I finally found my "sweetheart" load on February 14, 2000 (Valentines Day), almost seven months after getting the rifle. This is the load I still shoot today and I shot all weekend at the F-Class Nationals. The break-through came when I discovered that slower velocities produced outstanding accuracy. I found that Varget pushing a 175 SMK at about 2610 fps delivered quarter-MOA groups out to 300 yards and half-minute or better groups beyond that distance. Since developing that load, I've used Lapua cases and Russian primers, but the core elements, 43.0 grains Varget with 175 MKs seated 0.018" off the lands, has not changed.

<span style="font-style: italic">During the first few years I owned the rifle, I was crazy about cleaning. My log shows that I cleaned the barrel 80 times in the first 998 rounds. That works out to cleaning every dozen rounds! No wonder it took me so long to find the right load! Boy, have I changed my habits. <span style="font-weight: bold">I still clean the barrel, but I run a much higher round count between cleanings than before. Now, I shoot 100-200 rounds before I give the barrel a thorough cleaning. This goes with my general thinking--that some folks will benefit from added trigger time more than anything else. Spend more time shooting than loading 'perfect' ammunition or cleaning.</span> Squeezing that last quarter-minute out of your groups won't do you any good if you can't hold one MOA or you can't read wind conditions.</span>
 
#65
Re: To clean or not to clean

Hard to tell how many rounds constitute a single session/weekend for the author. Taking a SWAG, I'd say he's cleaning on the same basis as I do, and many like me; i.e., when the event is over and we're putting the rifle up for more than two to three days.

I agree, cleaning like he had been doing is not just unnecessary, it's counterproductive.

I look at cleaning as a preventive maintenance thing. I shoot, then I restore the bore and establish a deterioration preventive condition prior to moderately lengthy storage. If I'm shooting again in a half week or less, I just oil the bore. The potential for deterioration just won't justify cleaning, longer than that, I think it becomes becomes more advisable.

Greg
 
#66
Re: To clean or not to clean

Well, this thread has been a real eye opener for me. I always clean my rifles when I get home from the range, regardless of whether I've shot 10 or 200 rounds. I was always taught to clean the rifle this way. In my Police firearms training we had to clean them even if we didn't fire them ! ! !

I wonder now if I should give the 'no cleaning' route a go and see what happens. I can hear that little voice on my shoulder now though telling me to clean my rifle before it goes away. It's the same one that tells me the extra slice of cheesecake won't matter !
 
#67
Re: To clean or not to clean

I'm infantry trained, and even though they teach you to clean always, the #1 cause of wear in all our weapons is over-cleaning. I would keep the big gunk out, with a brush usually, but as long as she worked, I wouldn't do much too her, and never had a problem. (Until a sergeant saw my weapon, anyway) My home weapons get much less attention with a brush and more with rounds going downrange. My biggest fear is corrosion/rust from the carbon and any moly coating, but I just use some Tuff Cloth and high quality oil like FP-10 to keep moisture out.
 
#69
Re: To clean or not to clean

When I started shooting moly-coated 115DTACs I was told by Brand Cole, then at SSS, that I should clean every 300 rounds or so. More recently, he told me that he doesn't clean his barrels! I don't know if this is true for the naked 115DTACs or other bullets and I still clean my 308s every 80 to 100 rounds. I think Zak Smith has gone beyond 1500 rounds with naked 308s without cleaning his AI AW. I hate cleaning rifles!
 
#70
Re: To clean or not to clean

this question will never be answered because everyone will continue to do what they feel is best and one side is usually not going to be convinced by the other side. I personally have over 600 rounds and counting on my 338LM DTA barrel and over 900 on an AI 308. I will clean them when I see a noticeable change...since I have not- I will keep shooting
smile.gif
 
#74
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
AUJohn said:
I don't think anyone here was suggesting that a bore snake was a good way to properly clean a barrel. If anyone misinterpreted what I said about them, I view it as a way to get the larger chunks of carbon out between cleanings. A match, stainless barrel usually can go hundreds of rounds before needing a cleaning. I would imagine a factory barrel would need cleaning a little more often if it picks up too much copper. So the bore snake can extend the time between cleanings in most cases. Long term storage is totally different. A good rod, guide, solvent, patches, etc are the proper way to really clean a rifle. I'm also not talking about cleaning the bolt, which is a different story. </div></div>

If you have chunks of carbon like that you have pressure issues and possibly risk a blown barrel. Time for a real clean. If you are talking about fixed carbon then you are joking. That's the stuff that needs a bronze brush. snakes are good for issues like dirty when you have fallen over. Beats carrying a rod. they don't do much else.
Click to expand...
 
#75
Re: To clean or not to clean

Ok newbie here.......... the guy I shoot with alot and am learning from him cleans his barrels after every 10 shots at the range. I have a Rem 700 5R which has about 100 rds thru it. We were shooting the other day and I brought up this topic. He said sure you can keep shooting if you want to burn your barrel out. He says his gunsmith says every 10-20 rds to clean his stuff. So do yall think this is correct or a falsity?
 
#77
Re: To clean or not to clean

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiDavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He said sure you can keep shooting if you want to burn your barrel out. He says his gunsmith says every 10-20 rds to clean his stuff. So do yall think this is correct or a falsity? </div></div>

His gunsmith is one smart business man
wink.gif


I also have a 5R, my nice bore guide and cleaning rod sits in the garage for a long while now. If it shoots well, keep shooting it, like everyone else said, only clean when notice accuracy drops.
 
#78
Re: To clean or not to clean

so is the 'fouling method' calibre specific at all?? does the same apply for smaller calibres too? (.224)

i must say i have never noticed a decrease in accuracy before cleaning.. but when its getting over 100 rounds i start getting guilt trips and visions of my local gunshop owner whipping me with a cleaning rod. (is this normal?)
 
#81
Re: To clean or not to clean

Quick! blackcat13, edit your post before people start jumping at your post!!
wink.gif


If you do a quick search, this topic has been talked about way too many times.

Barrel Break in
Hope you find what you are looking for on the above link.

 
#83
Re: To clean or not to clean

AUJohn-

No, not large chunks of carbon, but yes, I get some loose carbon out with a bore snake without taking copper out. Let's just say we see things differently. You keep doing what you do and I will keep doing what I do. As dksd39 says, one side will not convince the other to change what they do. I'm confident in how and when I clean barrels.
 
#84
Re: To clean or not to clean

I tore down and cleaned every gun in my collection this past month. I don't consider myself a 'high-volume' shooter but I was absolutely amazed at how much carbon and fouling was removed. I could measure the carbon I scrubbed out in ounces if I still had it.

Some older guns passed to me (M1, M1C, 1903A3) all had gunked up, baked/dried oil on many parts and quite a few springs were rusted up good. M1 Carbine gas piston was rusted in place. PB B'laster kicked that in the ass, freed it up lovely and dissolved all that gunk. Barrels had salts in em. All kinds of different colors too, blue salts, green salts..scrubbed, re-lubed, reassembled they all feel like new now. Pistols in my collection all had large amounts of carbon behind the extractors, fire control parts had powder and carbon embedded on and underneath. Firing pin channels were pretty disgusting too.

Barrels I'm less anal about..having a clean chamber and an unobstructed bore is what I'm mainly concerned with. Copper fouling occurs a lot from hot-rodding and running these copper bullets like TSX and GMX. For field use a bore snake tucked away is all I need to ensure my bore is free of obstructions. When I get home if my accuracy has been suffering then I'll take the solvents, brushes, and patches to the barrel.
In my experiences cold, fouled bore shots are more 'true' to NPOA than my cold clean bore shots.
 
#85
Re: To clean or not to clean

Every 6 months I'll go through all of my WWII guns and clean them eventhough they don't get shot much.

I clean my .308's it I was out in nasty weather. Spring time in Indiana is horrible for shooting weather!
 
#87
Re: To clean or not to clean

Good discussion here. I am former Army, so the cleaning bug is instilled deep. Several years of comp shooting has changed that a bit. I agree with the guys who watch the accuracy level.

My duty weapons have to be cleaned, reliability, liability and accountability prevail.
 
#89
Re: To clean or not to clean

Has any of you in law enforcement had your cleaning regiment brought up as an issue in court? By regiment, I was taught to clean after every session and clean a specific way everytime.
 
#90
Re: To clean or not to clean

I clean my guns about every 3 to 400 rounds but I clean my bolt face and lugs often. ARs I clean more so due to moving parts. Once clean it takes about 4 to 6 rounds to settle in again.
I have went both ways on this. I could not tell the difference. So why do something just to take up more time.
 
#92
Re: To clean or not to clean

this is a great discussion, i have always wondered how much cleaning really affects accuracy and barrel life. so far it seems i agree with most that anything with moving parts needs to be cleaned and working smoothly, but barrels less so. thanks for the info.
 
#93
Re: To clean or not to clean

someone once said...
"cleaning your gun before you loose accuracy...is like wiping your ass before you take a shit"

LMAO

For the record I usually clean after every outing-might be 10 shots might be 200 shots. I just feel quilty about having a "dirty" gun.
 
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