Range Report 260 in a 22' gas gun
- Thread starter Jon Lester
- Start date
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I don't persoanlly run one, but have loaded for a few. You will typically see about .5 grain less powder for max pressure in a 260. The rounds typically run about 50 fps slower than a bolt gun for the 139-140 bullets. But for semi-auto, it's a great round. The 123-130 grain bullets are a pretty good choice for higher speeds and decent wind/drop amounts.
I don't persoanlly run one, but have loaded for a few. You will typically see about .5 grain less powder for max pressure in a 260. The rounds typically run about 50 fps slower than a bolt gun for the 139-140 bullets. But for semi-auto, it's a great round. The 123-130 grain bullets are a pretty good choice for higher speeds and decent wind/drop amounts.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I run it in a 24" gas gun.
Chad's right, max pressure before the brass is WHOOPED tends to be 1/2-3/4gr less.
I shoot 45.0gr H4350 under 123 Amax @ 2940 fps and 42.5gr H4350 under 140 Amax @ 2725 fps, both from Winchester 243 necked up brass.
Brass life is fine on both.
I run it in a 24" gas gun.
Chad's right, max pressure before the brass is WHOOPED tends to be 1/2-3/4gr less.
I shoot 45.0gr H4350 under 123 Amax @ 2940 fps and 42.5gr H4350 under 140 Amax @ 2725 fps, both from Winchester 243 necked up brass.
Brass life is fine on both.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">22" and even that would make me cringe.</div></div>
That is because you havent' been paying attention...
I shot the 18.5" 260 at sea level to 1000 yards, and only needed 8.8 Mils to reach 1000 yards, the guys with 28" Barrels use just over 8 Mils, which in MOA was only 3 MOA difference going from a 28" rifle to an 18.5" one...
Some spec's Chad did during the load work up for the 18.5" 260 includes a comparison with a 308 shooting a 175gr @ 2700fps, which in today's tactical world is faster than most commercially available ammo.
308 Win with a 175 SMK @ 2700
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -10.89 3.78 1871.3 1360.7
1000 -35.87 9.17 1251.6 608.7
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -3.23 1.12 1871.3 1360.7
1000-10.63 2.72 1251.6 608.7
260 Rem with 139 Scenar @ 2701
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -10.09 2.93 2025.4 1266
1000 -30.94 6.84 1463.9 661.4
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -2.99 0.87 2025.4 1266
1000-9.17 2.03 1463.9 661.4
If you look the drift is similar to a 155gr 308 going 2950fps out of a 18.5" 260...
So the idea you need longer... well some people need to step out from behind the computer and actually shoot more. My real world dope was 8.8 Mils to 1000.
22" is max I would go in a gasser, 20" is probably smarter...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">22" and even that would make me cringe.</div></div>
That is because you havent' been paying attention...
I shot the 18.5" 260 at sea level to 1000 yards, and only needed 8.8 Mils to reach 1000 yards, the guys with 28" Barrels use just over 8 Mils, which in MOA was only 3 MOA difference going from a 28" rifle to an 18.5" one...
Some spec's Chad did during the load work up for the 18.5" 260 includes a comparison with a 308 shooting a 175gr @ 2700fps, which in today's tactical world is faster than most commercially available ammo.
308 Win with a 175 SMK @ 2700
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -10.89 3.78 1871.3 1360.7
1000 -35.87 9.17 1251.6 608.7
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -3.23 1.12 1871.3 1360.7
1000-10.63 2.72 1251.6 608.7
260 Rem with 139 Scenar @ 2701
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -10.09 2.93 2025.4 1266
1000 -30.94 6.84 1463.9 661.4
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -2.99 0.87 2025.4 1266
1000-9.17 2.03 1463.9 661.4
If you look the drift is similar to a 155gr 308 going 2950fps out of a 18.5" 260...
So the idea you need longer... well some people need to step out from behind the computer and actually shoot more. My real world dope was 8.8 Mils to 1000.
22" is max I would go in a gasser, 20" is probably smarter...
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">22" and even that would make me cringe.</div></div>
That is because you havent' been paying attention...
I shot the 18.5" 260 at sea level to 1000 yards, and only needed 8.8 Mils to reach 1000 yards, the guys with 28" Barrels use just over 8 Mils, which in MOA was only 3 MOA difference going from a 28" rifle to an 18.5" one...
Some spec's Chad did during the load work up for the 18.5" 260 includes a comparison with a 308 shooting a 175gr @ 2700fps, which in today's tactical world is faster than most commercially available ammo.
308 Win with a 175 SMK @ 2700
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -10.89 3.78 1871.3 1360.7
1000 -35.87 9.17 1251.6 608.7
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -3.23 1.12 1871.3 1360.7
1000-10.63 2.72 1251.6 608.7
260 Rem with 139 Scenar @ 2701
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -10.09 2.93 2025.4 1266
1000 -30.94 6.84 1463.9 661.4
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -2.99 0.87 2025.4 1266
1000-9.17 2.03 1463.9 661.4
If you look the drift is similar to a 155gr 308 going 2950fps out of a 18.5" 260...
So the idea you need longer... well some people need to step out from behind the computer and actually shoot more. My real world dope was 8.8 Mils to 1000.
22" is max I would go in a gasser, 20" is probably smarter... </div></div>
Wow, talk about missing the point. We're not talking about stubby bolt guns.
Try your 18.5" barreled 260 at 1450yd, which, incidentally is why I don't like the SHORT BARRELED GAS GUN.
I know what your dope is, I know what the computer models say, and I've done the testing first hand. Put down the bolt gun and pick up a gas gun that's 18.5" long, take it out to a range in excess of 1000yd.
I've put my 260 with a 24" upper next to a 24" barreled bolt action and shot them back to back, same day, same conditions, etc. at 1500yd. The gas gun was subsonic for more than 250yd and the wind calls became significantly more difficult than the 24" barreled bolt gun that ran 10% faster muzzle velocities.
The gas block is situated appx. 13" from the bolt face on my gas gun that's 24" long. That rifle gives performance in a 24" platform EXACTLY what your 18.5" barreled rifle gets.
Here's my data on a 24" barreled gas gun:
140 Amax 2700-2725fps (bullet lot dependent, I had some old ones that went slower across the board)
123 Amax 2925 fps
RayDog is running 140 Bergers at 2990 from a 26" barreled bolt gun.
Sit down in front of a computer and run a 2700fps Scenar against a 2990fps Berger for Wind Deflection at 1000yd and what's the difference?
Berger @ 2990 = 5.8 MOA on a 10mph full value
Scenar @ 2701 = 7.8 MOA on a 10 mph full value
That's appx. 20" less deflection from running a 260 bolt gun at the top of the envelope; 20" of deflection on a 58" total change is over 30% less deflection.
Look at that, 30% improvement in your "danger space" for a wind call... simply by running a long barreled bolt gun instead of a long barreled gas gun or your short barreled bolt gun.
I'm not talking about a 308 with a 155 or 175, we're talking about 260's. The 260, contrary to the popular belief of those who haven't done a lot of testing, is quite different than a 308 when internal ballistics are considered. As a result, when that large difference in internal ballistics is applied to the resultant MV's of a high BC 6.5mm bullet the differences stack up very quickly. The 308 comparison is hardly applicable here, it's essentially a pointless red herring.
My advice above was based upon spec'ing an AR10 platform in 260, not a stubby bolt action. Your stubby bolt action doesn't have the inherent pressure issues that the gas system creates, and at 24" long the gas gun is much like your 18.5" barreled bolt gun.
I've hit a lot of targets up to and beyond 1000yd with a 2700fps 140gr bullet from a 260. Knowing what can be done for an equal size platform in a bolt action, the comparison is night and day.
The gas guns are fun, I enjoyed mine, but the fact that the gas system is limiting the pressure curve because of both port pressures and chamber dimensions means that it takes a big hit to a bolt gun of the same barrel length.
So how about the canned response you've given so many times:
"If you knew how to read the wind better you wouldn't need it."
Have you ever missed a shot due to a wind call being slightly off? Maybe dropped one off the edge a smidge and 2-3" of difference was a hit or miss in a match? What about the comparison I just put there? 20" of difference? That's a big "adjustment", 2 MOA; better tools for the job at hand.
Not everyone that disagrees with your sermon on short barrels lacks the real world experience of shooting the comparisons.
Perhaps I have been paying attention, I ran the tests myself, and I hold real data on the subject. Semi-autos are not bolt actions, data from one type of platform is not necessarily applicable to another.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">22" and even that would make me cringe.</div></div>
That is because you havent' been paying attention...
I shot the 18.5" 260 at sea level to 1000 yards, and only needed 8.8 Mils to reach 1000 yards, the guys with 28" Barrels use just over 8 Mils, which in MOA was only 3 MOA difference going from a 28" rifle to an 18.5" one...
Some spec's Chad did during the load work up for the 18.5" 260 includes a comparison with a 308 shooting a 175gr @ 2700fps, which in today's tactical world is faster than most commercially available ammo.
308 Win with a 175 SMK @ 2700
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -10.89 3.78 1871.3 1360.7
1000 -35.87 9.17 1251.6 608.7
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2700 2832.6
500 -3.23 1.12 1871.3 1360.7
1000-10.63 2.72 1251.6 608.7
260 Rem with 139 Scenar @ 2701
MOA
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (moa) (moa) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -10.09 2.93 2025.4 1266
1000 -30.94 6.84 1463.9 661.4
MILS
Range Elev Wind Velocity Energy
(yards) (mil) (mil) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 --- --- 2708.4 2264
500 -2.99 0.87 2025.4 1266
1000-9.17 2.03 1463.9 661.4
If you look the drift is similar to a 155gr 308 going 2950fps out of a 18.5" 260...
So the idea you need longer... well some people need to step out from behind the computer and actually shoot more. My real world dope was 8.8 Mils to 1000.
22" is max I would go in a gasser, 20" is probably smarter... </div></div>
Wow, talk about missing the point. We're not talking about stubby bolt guns.
Try your 18.5" barreled 260 at 1450yd, which, incidentally is why I don't like the SHORT BARRELED GAS GUN.
I know what your dope is, I know what the computer models say, and I've done the testing first hand. Put down the bolt gun and pick up a gas gun that's 18.5" long, take it out to a range in excess of 1000yd.
I've put my 260 with a 24" upper next to a 24" barreled bolt action and shot them back to back, same day, same conditions, etc. at 1500yd. The gas gun was subsonic for more than 250yd and the wind calls became significantly more difficult than the 24" barreled bolt gun that ran 10% faster muzzle velocities.
The gas block is situated appx. 13" from the bolt face on my gas gun that's 24" long. That rifle gives performance in a 24" platform EXACTLY what your 18.5" barreled rifle gets.
Here's my data on a 24" barreled gas gun:
140 Amax 2700-2725fps (bullet lot dependent, I had some old ones that went slower across the board)
123 Amax 2925 fps
RayDog is running 140 Bergers at 2990 from a 26" barreled bolt gun.
Sit down in front of a computer and run a 2700fps Scenar against a 2990fps Berger for Wind Deflection at 1000yd and what's the difference?
Berger @ 2990 = 5.8 MOA on a 10mph full value
Scenar @ 2701 = 7.8 MOA on a 10 mph full value
That's appx. 20" less deflection from running a 260 bolt gun at the top of the envelope; 20" of deflection on a 58" total change is over 30% less deflection.
Look at that, 30% improvement in your "danger space" for a wind call... simply by running a long barreled bolt gun instead of a long barreled gas gun or your short barreled bolt gun.
I'm not talking about a 308 with a 155 or 175, we're talking about 260's. The 260, contrary to the popular belief of those who haven't done a lot of testing, is quite different than a 308 when internal ballistics are considered. As a result, when that large difference in internal ballistics is applied to the resultant MV's of a high BC 6.5mm bullet the differences stack up very quickly. The 308 comparison is hardly applicable here, it's essentially a pointless red herring.
My advice above was based upon spec'ing an AR10 platform in 260, not a stubby bolt action. Your stubby bolt action doesn't have the inherent pressure issues that the gas system creates, and at 24" long the gas gun is much like your 18.5" barreled bolt gun.
I've hit a lot of targets up to and beyond 1000yd with a 2700fps 140gr bullet from a 260. Knowing what can be done for an equal size platform in a bolt action, the comparison is night and day.
The gas guns are fun, I enjoyed mine, but the fact that the gas system is limiting the pressure curve because of both port pressures and chamber dimensions means that it takes a big hit to a bolt gun of the same barrel length.
So how about the canned response you've given so many times:
"If you knew how to read the wind better you wouldn't need it."
Have you ever missed a shot due to a wind call being slightly off? Maybe dropped one off the edge a smidge and 2-3" of difference was a hit or miss in a match? What about the comparison I just put there? 20" of difference? That's a big "adjustment", 2 MOA; better tools for the job at hand.
Not everyone that disagrees with your sermon on short barrels lacks the real world experience of shooting the comparisons.
Perhaps I have been paying attention, I ran the tests myself, and I hold real data on the subject. Semi-autos are not bolt actions, data from one type of platform is not necessarily applicable to another.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
What idiot builds a gasser for 1450yd shots ?
If I want to shoot that far I have a 7WSM...
You can plug in all kinds of numbers, but most people aren't shooting beyond 1000 yards...
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, you can put up any numbers you like you still have to have access to that range and be able to shoot.
Guys have been successfully doing 260 gassers, and in fact I had em... since 2003, Medic Jim was shooting a Gasser in 260 @ ASC since the very first match, SSGT Kay same thing, GAP was doing them years ago... and I have had a 260 since 2001... so tell me something I don't know. In fact my AW at home is a 260 and has been.
So, spare me... a 260 gasser shooting a 123gr to 1450 yards .. please spare us all your out of context objection.
Just like when the 6.5CM came out and Kevin Drake of Team Blaster raced to tower at RO to put it against my 308... I first round hit, he didn't.
2MOA at 1000 us a 2MPH wind call, big deal, a call is a call like elevation is elevation. Who cares if you need 8 Mils or 8.8 Mils to hit the target it still takes a person to hit the target. One dope is not "better" than the other, if it was, people with 260s would always beat people with 308s and that ain't life Hot Shot.
If I want to shoot beyond a 1000 I have a 7WSM, 300WM, 338LM... not to mention a bunch of 308s. Hell I have a SHR in 260 from 2003, ah, 24" bbl. It's a laser...
Numbers aren't the story, people are...
What idiot builds a gasser for 1450yd shots ?
If I want to shoot that far I have a 7WSM...
You can plug in all kinds of numbers, but most people aren't shooting beyond 1000 yards...
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, you can put up any numbers you like you still have to have access to that range and be able to shoot.
Guys have been successfully doing 260 gassers, and in fact I had em... since 2003, Medic Jim was shooting a Gasser in 260 @ ASC since the very first match, SSGT Kay same thing, GAP was doing them years ago... and I have had a 260 since 2001... so tell me something I don't know. In fact my AW at home is a 260 and has been.
So, spare me... a 260 gasser shooting a 123gr to 1450 yards .. please spare us all your out of context objection.
Just like when the 6.5CM came out and Kevin Drake of Team Blaster raced to tower at RO to put it against my 308... I first round hit, he didn't.
2MOA at 1000 us a 2MPH wind call, big deal, a call is a call like elevation is elevation. Who cares if you need 8 Mils or 8.8 Mils to hit the target it still takes a person to hit the target. One dope is not "better" than the other, if it was, people with 260s would always beat people with 308s and that ain't life Hot Shot.
If I want to shoot beyond a 1000 I have a 7WSM, 300WM, 338LM... not to mention a bunch of 308s. Hell I have a SHR in 260 from 2003, ah, 24" bbl. It's a laser...
Numbers aren't the story, people are...
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
The 140's were the example you gave, I provided the comparison with 140's. The 123's are just another speed that I get.
Yet again, you didn't address the short barreled gas gun and you fixated on only 1 thing, past 1000yd.
Even at 1000yd the long barreled gas gun is equal to a short barreled bolt gun. What happens when you shoot the gas gun with another 5.5" chopped from it? Yet again, more loss in ground.
I agree, the person shooting it is the test. You can put a 7 WSM in my hands against your 308 on your range my first time there. The chances of me outshooting you across 10 targets is practically nil. New weapon, new range against years of experience in that specific place.
I just sat down with some QL work and it looks like the 18.5" 260 should be around 2525fps with a 140 Amax and restricting gas port pressure to 13ksi or less (which is the ballpark pressure limit for the gas system of the DPMS LR-xxx). That's a believable velocity from the rest of the data I've gathered. I don't own an 18" upper on a 260, but if someone does, I would like to see what they're getting from Chad's ammo out of it.
How does that stack up against your 18.5" barreled bolt gun or your 24" 'Hide build from 2003?
ETA: 140 Amax @ 2525fps = 8.3 MOA for 10mph full value, 1000yd. Another 5" of drift. We're approaching 308 wind calls now.
Why shoot a 260 and shoulder the cost of ownership if it's not going to buy you anything beyond the 308 that is being replaced by it?
Gas guns aren't directly comparable to bolt guns for ballistic performance. No "blah blah blah" about who shot what and when will over ride the basic physics of that.
And 2 MOA @ 1000yd with the long barreled bolt gun data is a lot more than a 2 MPH difference.
The 140's were the example you gave, I provided the comparison with 140's. The 123's are just another speed that I get.
Yet again, you didn't address the short barreled gas gun and you fixated on only 1 thing, past 1000yd.
Even at 1000yd the long barreled gas gun is equal to a short barreled bolt gun. What happens when you shoot the gas gun with another 5.5" chopped from it? Yet again, more loss in ground.
I agree, the person shooting it is the test. You can put a 7 WSM in my hands against your 308 on your range my first time there. The chances of me outshooting you across 10 targets is practically nil. New weapon, new range against years of experience in that specific place.
I just sat down with some QL work and it looks like the 18.5" 260 should be around 2525fps with a 140 Amax and restricting gas port pressure to 13ksi or less (which is the ballpark pressure limit for the gas system of the DPMS LR-xxx). That's a believable velocity from the rest of the data I've gathered. I don't own an 18" upper on a 260, but if someone does, I would like to see what they're getting from Chad's ammo out of it.
How does that stack up against your 18.5" barreled bolt gun or your 24" 'Hide build from 2003?
ETA: 140 Amax @ 2525fps = 8.3 MOA for 10mph full value, 1000yd. Another 5" of drift. We're approaching 308 wind calls now.
Why shoot a 260 and shoulder the cost of ownership if it's not going to buy you anything beyond the 308 that is being replaced by it?
Gas guns aren't directly comparable to bolt guns for ballistic performance. No "blah blah blah" about who shot what and when will over ride the basic physics of that.
And 2 MOA @ 1000yd with the long barreled bolt gun data is a lot more than a 2 MPH difference.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Doesn't matter, I am not any more successful inside the working ranges of one rifle over another... The dope is what it is, its dependent on me to make the hit. If you want to play computers, if the computer says you need 10 mils to hit target with one rifle and 2 Mils of wind, yet the other rifle needs 9 Mils of elevation and 1.5 Mils of wind, its absolutely the same, within the working range.
My tight bore 308 in a 16" GAP AR10 only needs 39MOA to a 1000 yards, its not great but hits, however at 800 yards it hits a 1 MOA target shot after shot.
You can manipulate any numbers to look better, but really are they... no. Guys have shot the Cup with 260s, 7WSMs 243s and Terry Cross was a Top 10 with an 18" 308, they were not. In fact If you look up the Stats you'll see Garcia was 4th place with a borrowed AW shooting 168grs, in an open match against 243s, 260s, etc. That is the fact of life, not what QL says because it reads better...
Once you reach a certain level yes, you can glean an advantage, but only once you start approaches the edges of the working space... at 600 yards is it better, no, but 1200 yards it is... so if you know that is where you are playing they you account for that, but 90% of the ranges in the US are not to 1000 yards or beyond.
There is no advantage in that context, it is all shooter. If the dope is right, the dope is right, then the miss is on the shooter, end of story.
Run the numbers to show my 16" 308s going to 1lk... what does QL say about my Gasser doing that ? At sea level...
Doesn't matter, I am not any more successful inside the working ranges of one rifle over another... The dope is what it is, its dependent on me to make the hit. If you want to play computers, if the computer says you need 10 mils to hit target with one rifle and 2 Mils of wind, yet the other rifle needs 9 Mils of elevation and 1.5 Mils of wind, its absolutely the same, within the working range.
My tight bore 308 in a 16" GAP AR10 only needs 39MOA to a 1000 yards, its not great but hits, however at 800 yards it hits a 1 MOA target shot after shot.
You can manipulate any numbers to look better, but really are they... no. Guys have shot the Cup with 260s, 7WSMs 243s and Terry Cross was a Top 10 with an 18" 308, they were not. In fact If you look up the Stats you'll see Garcia was 4th place with a borrowed AW shooting 168grs, in an open match against 243s, 260s, etc. That is the fact of life, not what QL says because it reads better...
Once you reach a certain level yes, you can glean an advantage, but only once you start approaches the edges of the working space... at 600 yards is it better, no, but 1200 yards it is... so if you know that is where you are playing they you account for that, but 90% of the ranges in the US are not to 1000 yards or beyond.
There is no advantage in that context, it is all shooter. If the dope is right, the dope is right, then the miss is on the shooter, end of story.
Run the numbers to show my 16" 308s going to 1lk... what does QL say about my Gasser doing that ? At sea level...
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Run the numbers to show my 16" 308s going to 1lk... what does QL say about my Gasser doing that ? At sea level... </div></div>
QL was used only get a reasonable speed number for the MV of a short gas gun in 260 since I don't have an actual test data on it and you didn't provide one to refute the number so I'm assuming you don't either.
FYI, all those numbers I provided in trajectory are from JBM, not QL, and they're all run at standard ICAO conditions; 59F, Sea Level, etc etc.
The question posed above by the guy wanting a 260 gas gun is barrel length. Your shorty bolt gun data is not applicable. If you want to run a comparison of trajectory/drift for the 16" upper at 1k then give me the data and I'll run the calculation for it and compare it to known 20-24" data on bolt actions.
Of course the miss is on the shooter, I said that above. The point I made was, if the shooter gets close on the dope estimate, is the error margin for the 260 bigger than the 308? Why put the expense into building something that negates the benefits of running the higher performance, higher consumable cost platform?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Run the numbers to show my 16" 308s going to 1lk... what does QL say about my Gasser doing that ? At sea level... </div></div>
QL was used only get a reasonable speed number for the MV of a short gas gun in 260 since I don't have an actual test data on it and you didn't provide one to refute the number so I'm assuming you don't either.
FYI, all those numbers I provided in trajectory are from JBM, not QL, and they're all run at standard ICAO conditions; 59F, Sea Level, etc etc.
The question posed above by the guy wanting a 260 gas gun is barrel length. Your shorty bolt gun data is not applicable. If you want to run a comparison of trajectory/drift for the 16" upper at 1k then give me the data and I'll run the calculation for it and compare it to known 20-24" data on bolt actions.
Of course the miss is on the shooter, I said that above. The point I made was, if the shooter gets close on the dope estimate, is the error margin for the 260 bigger than the 308? Why put the expense into building something that negates the benefits of running the higher performance, higher consumable cost platform?
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
It doesn't work that way... the 260 doesn't Fudge the error at distance. I have never see a lesser shooter beat a better one because the "dope error is less" ...
If you blow it, you blow it, the only place there is a difference is the edge of transonic for any given round. Sure a 260 at 1000 is easier to shoot than a 308 because it is more consistent but at 800 it is identical. As long as it is consistent the Dope is the Dope... That whole, a blown call is idea is utter bullshit in the real world. Most people don't "blow" the call or combination call and shot within the small space you are talking about. Generally 308, 260, etc all miss the same, there is never a 20" miss difference, it's usually just off the plate either way.
First Sporting Rifle Match in Raton with my 7WSM I shot a 56 out of 60, the second I was off all day and shot a 49, which a lot of people shot better. My bad calls where not minimized because I had a 7WSM, I still missed. And Mike Kolar beat my 56 with a 260, which technically my 7WSM at 2900 shouldn't have lost according to your logic.
This is the falsehood promoted by you guys crunching numbers... that your miss is less, sorry not in real life. I have hopped on many a students rifles who were "missing" and hit, why because I have more experience. Not because the bullet was better for me. Even with me giving them calls, people still miss, yet with the same call I can hit. We see people can have more than 2 MIls of variation in calls on the same targets at the same time... That is the reality of things... 2 MIls at 1000 yard of variation between people is not in your computer.
It doesn't work that way... the 260 doesn't Fudge the error at distance. I have never see a lesser shooter beat a better one because the "dope error is less" ...
If you blow it, you blow it, the only place there is a difference is the edge of transonic for any given round. Sure a 260 at 1000 is easier to shoot than a 308 because it is more consistent but at 800 it is identical. As long as it is consistent the Dope is the Dope... That whole, a blown call is idea is utter bullshit in the real world. Most people don't "blow" the call or combination call and shot within the small space you are talking about. Generally 308, 260, etc all miss the same, there is never a 20" miss difference, it's usually just off the plate either way.
First Sporting Rifle Match in Raton with my 7WSM I shot a 56 out of 60, the second I was off all day and shot a 49, which a lot of people shot better. My bad calls where not minimized because I had a 7WSM, I still missed. And Mike Kolar beat my 56 with a 260, which technically my 7WSM at 2900 shouldn't have lost according to your logic.
This is the falsehood promoted by you guys crunching numbers... that your miss is less, sorry not in real life. I have hopped on many a students rifles who were "missing" and hit, why because I have more experience. Not because the bullet was better for me. Even with me giving them calls, people still miss, yet with the same call I can hit. We see people can have more than 2 MIls of variation in calls on the same targets at the same time... That is the reality of things... 2 MIls at 1000 yard of variation between people is not in your computer.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
What you guys fail to understand is:
The computer assumes, the wind is constant from the muzzle to the target, no change in velocity, no change in angle of attack on the bullet.
That the atmospheric conditions are perfect and modeled in a vacuum to recreate the air density and there is no error in gathering
That the bullet is being shot from a fixture with no shooter influence. No influence from recoil, or fundamentals..
This is why none of this holds true beyond a reference point and even then, as long as it is above supersonic, usually around 1250fps, the results are the same. If my short 308 is weak at 1000, a long 155gr going 2950 can mimic the results until you drop below 1250 then who ever is above will have more consistency.
I see a variety of weapons, ammo, and shooters and I base my observations on a very large cross section of people and results, we obsess over the results as that is our only metric on success, can you hit or not. Not want the computer model says should happen, but what really happens, and not once, or by just me, but by what we see in training and in competition. How many hit at 1000 yards, on demand... the fact it never plays out the same in real life as on the internet is a clue.
What you guys fail to understand is:
The computer assumes, the wind is constant from the muzzle to the target, no change in velocity, no change in angle of attack on the bullet.
That the atmospheric conditions are perfect and modeled in a vacuum to recreate the air density and there is no error in gathering
That the bullet is being shot from a fixture with no shooter influence. No influence from recoil, or fundamentals..
This is why none of this holds true beyond a reference point and even then, as long as it is above supersonic, usually around 1250fps, the results are the same. If my short 308 is weak at 1000, a long 155gr going 2950 can mimic the results until you drop below 1250 then who ever is above will have more consistency.
I see a variety of weapons, ammo, and shooters and I base my observations on a very large cross section of people and results, we obsess over the results as that is our only metric on success, can you hit or not. Not want the computer model says should happen, but what really happens, and not once, or by just me, but by what we see in training and in competition. How many hit at 1000 yards, on demand... the fact it never plays out the same in real life as on the internet is a clue.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Then according to you logic there's absolutely no reason to shoot anything other than a 308 in any conditions for shots inside of 800yd. The shooter is the shooter, yet the top level guys who switch from 308 to 7 WSM start putting up higher hit percentages in situations like you describe below.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The computer assumes, the wind is constant from the muzzle to the target, no change in velocity, no change in angle of attack on the bullet.
That the atmospheric conditions are perfect and modeled in a vacuum to recreate the air density and there is no error in gathering </div></div>
This is exactly why my logic and approach to the problem makes more sense and actually works better. A shooter that takes into account the ground change, a valley that is coming in at an angle, the treeline, a slight surge in wind, etc. but has a bullet that is more "forgiving" in the wind means that small errors in reading each little piece is less likely to be off the target completely because they had a small issue in wind call.
If someone can't read the wind or can't get a range on the target for gross error reasons then they could shoot a 22LR or a 338 LM with heavy turned solids, the chances of hitting at long ranges are still substantially low. That's not what we're talking about.
The quote I pulled above is testimony from your experience to exactly mine as well. Wind flags at the 1000yd burm says "10-12mph full value, right to left". But the mirage, the land layout, and the fact that I am shooting across 2 ravines and along the midline of a 3rd shields that wind. I hit the 1165yd shot on round 1 for a 12" square but instead of a 6.5 MOA correction, I gave it 2.25 MOA because I took all those little factors into play.
I did it with a substantially higher performance round than a 308 though, those same conditions for the guys shooting with me dictated "calculator conditions" of 14+ MOA, yet with 5 rounds each 2 very good shooters were just off the right, then just off the left, then just back off the right.
That experience supports my explanation of "larger error margin helps the shooter".
Then according to you logic there's absolutely no reason to shoot anything other than a 308 in any conditions for shots inside of 800yd. The shooter is the shooter, yet the top level guys who switch from 308 to 7 WSM start putting up higher hit percentages in situations like you describe below.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The computer assumes, the wind is constant from the muzzle to the target, no change in velocity, no change in angle of attack on the bullet.
That the atmospheric conditions are perfect and modeled in a vacuum to recreate the air density and there is no error in gathering </div></div>
This is exactly why my logic and approach to the problem makes more sense and actually works better. A shooter that takes into account the ground change, a valley that is coming in at an angle, the treeline, a slight surge in wind, etc. but has a bullet that is more "forgiving" in the wind means that small errors in reading each little piece is less likely to be off the target completely because they had a small issue in wind call.
If someone can't read the wind or can't get a range on the target for gross error reasons then they could shoot a 22LR or a 338 LM with heavy turned solids, the chances of hitting at long ranges are still substantially low. That's not what we're talking about.
The quote I pulled above is testimony from your experience to exactly mine as well. Wind flags at the 1000yd burm says "10-12mph full value, right to left". But the mirage, the land layout, and the fact that I am shooting across 2 ravines and along the midline of a 3rd shields that wind. I hit the 1165yd shot on round 1 for a 12" square but instead of a 6.5 MOA correction, I gave it 2.25 MOA because I took all those little factors into play.
I did it with a substantially higher performance round than a 308 though, those same conditions for the guys shooting with me dictated "calculator conditions" of 14+ MOA, yet with 5 rounds each 2 very good shooters were just off the right, then just off the left, then just back off the right.
That experience supports my explanation of "larger error margin helps the shooter".
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Sorry, anyone going Left then Right, on a target is shooter... You just know one dope better than the other.
I would go against any caliber inside 800m with my 308, because I know it without fail... just because you think one is better doesn't make it.
Experience with what, playing with your self... show me the stats from any Competition that supports your "experience" that simply having a ballistically better caliber means more than someone without ? Doesn't hold true and so much so, I would give you a free slot to Fall Shooter's Bash to prove it... and we can shoot targets together inside 800 to show you that driving a rifle is more important.
Working ranges is the key, a 22LR at 50 yards versus a 338LM at 50 yields no advantage to the 338.
Consistent is just that, Consistent, whether you are consistent with a 260 or 308 yields the same results inside the working ranges, and doesnt change until you approach the outside edge of one versus another.
ASC the 600yard Group Shot, I won it, 12MPH wind, with a 308, I shot against ballistically better bullets. George, Jeff and I all shot the 7WSM the last time I was there, George and Jeff the 180VLD at 3050fps, versus me shooting a 175gr 2900fps, it was George, Me than Jeff... what you are saying is, experience is that Jeff should have beat me... The shooters are all doping it the same, a 260 shooter dopes for a 260, a 308 shooter for a 308, the errors are the same because they are each doping it differently, so it becomes about the shooter not the bullet.
Sorry, anyone going Left then Right, on a target is shooter... You just know one dope better than the other.
I would go against any caliber inside 800m with my 308, because I know it without fail... just because you think one is better doesn't make it.
Experience with what, playing with your self... show me the stats from any Competition that supports your "experience" that simply having a ballistically better caliber means more than someone without ? Doesn't hold true and so much so, I would give you a free slot to Fall Shooter's Bash to prove it... and we can shoot targets together inside 800 to show you that driving a rifle is more important.
Working ranges is the key, a 22LR at 50 yards versus a 338LM at 50 yields no advantage to the 338.
Consistent is just that, Consistent, whether you are consistent with a 260 or 308 yields the same results inside the working ranges, and doesnt change until you approach the outside edge of one versus another.
ASC the 600yard Group Shot, I won it, 12MPH wind, with a 308, I shot against ballistically better bullets. George, Jeff and I all shot the 7WSM the last time I was there, George and Jeff the 180VLD at 3050fps, versus me shooting a 175gr 2900fps, it was George, Me than Jeff... what you are saying is, experience is that Jeff should have beat me... The shooters are all doping it the same, a 260 shooter dopes for a 260, a 308 shooter for a 308, the errors are the same because they are each doping it differently, so it becomes about the shooter not the bullet.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, anyone going Left then Right, on a target is shooter... You just know one dope better than the other.
I would go against any caliber inside 800m with my 308, because I know it without fail... just because you think one is better doesn't make it.
Experience with what, playing with your self... show me the stats from any Competition that supports your "experience" that simply having a ballistically better caliber means more than someone without ? Doesn't hold true and so much so, I would give you a free slot to Fall Shooter's Bash to prove it... and we can shoot targets together inside 800 to show you that driving a rifle is more important.
Working ranges is the key, a 22LR at 50 yards versus a 338LM at 50 yields no advantage to the 338.
Consistent is just that, Consistent, whether you are consistent with a 260 or 308 yields the same results inside the working ranges, and doesnt change until you approach the outside edge of one versus another.
ASC the 600yard Group Shot, I won it, 12MPH wind, with a 308, I shot against ballistically better bullets. George, Jeff and I all shot the 7WSM the last time I was there, George and Jeff the 180VLD at 3050fps, versus me shooting a 175gr 2900fps, it was George, Me than Jeff... what you are saying is, experience is that Jeff should have beat me... The shooters are all doping it the same, a 260 shooter dopes for a 260, a 308 shooter for a 308, the errors are the same because they are each doping it differently, so it becomes about the shooter not the bullet. </div></div>
What happens if you hand the same shooter those 3 different 7's and hand them the dope card?
How far apart were the 3 scores on that comparison? I've never discounted the shooter in the equation, I'm going with the same shooter over and over and over again. You keep missing that. I've never said you shooting vs. me shooting a superior caliber that I'd win. In fact, up above, I said just the opposite.
Give the same shooter varying degrees of performance in the same conditions and the scores go up as the caliber performance goes up. This is not opinion but rather, it is fact. Look at the records set in F class and long range bench rest. In F open nobody shoots a 308, even at 600yd. Everyone shoots 6.5's and 7's as fast as they can possibly push that bullet. The target scores of nationally and world ranked shooters don't lie.
You keep coming back to me vs. you vs. someone else but that has never been the point at all. In fact, I've agreed with you regarding knowledge of the DOPE inside the usual parameters of a rifle that the higher skill level will trump the cartridge performance level. The higher skill set tends to win, on rare occasions there's an upset, but that's a statistical anomaly, not a general trend.
Equal shooter skill sets under equal conditions are won through performance upgrade to reduce the human error plain and simple. It works that way in fighter jets, it works that way in auto racing, it works that way in shooting.
Again, we're back to you redirecting into a fool's argument of "which is more important, the shooter or the rifle?" We both know that answer, we're both in agreement on that answer. The point of the thread was performance payout on a cartridge in a gas gun for a barrel length choice. Cripple the weapon platform (in this particular case a gas gun that is handicapped already due to the gas system) and there will be an advantage to be had for the same shooter on the higher performing platform. Remember that comparison, your 18.5" bolt action shoots an almost identical bullet at the same speed as my 24" gas gun does, that's the crippling effect of the gas system that I'm referring to.
I can't believe you're going to honestly tell me that if I park you on the tower at RO with a 7 WSM and a shorty gas gun in 308 you're going to have less dispersion in the impact points at 800yd under all conditions using the 308 vs. the 7 WSM?
If that's the case, I'll put up a case of Redbull delivered to your address of choice that says you will tend (over 20 shots) to print a smaller group with the very high performance 7 WSM than you will with the standard fare 308. Same shooter, 2 known rifles, 2 known sets of dope, same range (800yd or as close to that as possible at the given range), same paper targets for group.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, anyone going Left then Right, on a target is shooter... You just know one dope better than the other.
I would go against any caliber inside 800m with my 308, because I know it without fail... just because you think one is better doesn't make it.
Experience with what, playing with your self... show me the stats from any Competition that supports your "experience" that simply having a ballistically better caliber means more than someone without ? Doesn't hold true and so much so, I would give you a free slot to Fall Shooter's Bash to prove it... and we can shoot targets together inside 800 to show you that driving a rifle is more important.
Working ranges is the key, a 22LR at 50 yards versus a 338LM at 50 yields no advantage to the 338.
Consistent is just that, Consistent, whether you are consistent with a 260 or 308 yields the same results inside the working ranges, and doesnt change until you approach the outside edge of one versus another.
ASC the 600yard Group Shot, I won it, 12MPH wind, with a 308, I shot against ballistically better bullets. George, Jeff and I all shot the 7WSM the last time I was there, George and Jeff the 180VLD at 3050fps, versus me shooting a 175gr 2900fps, it was George, Me than Jeff... what you are saying is, experience is that Jeff should have beat me... The shooters are all doping it the same, a 260 shooter dopes for a 260, a 308 shooter for a 308, the errors are the same because they are each doping it differently, so it becomes about the shooter not the bullet. </div></div>
What happens if you hand the same shooter those 3 different 7's and hand them the dope card?
How far apart were the 3 scores on that comparison? I've never discounted the shooter in the equation, I'm going with the same shooter over and over and over again. You keep missing that. I've never said you shooting vs. me shooting a superior caliber that I'd win. In fact, up above, I said just the opposite.
Give the same shooter varying degrees of performance in the same conditions and the scores go up as the caliber performance goes up. This is not opinion but rather, it is fact. Look at the records set in F class and long range bench rest. In F open nobody shoots a 308, even at 600yd. Everyone shoots 6.5's and 7's as fast as they can possibly push that bullet. The target scores of nationally and world ranked shooters don't lie.
You keep coming back to me vs. you vs. someone else but that has never been the point at all. In fact, I've agreed with you regarding knowledge of the DOPE inside the usual parameters of a rifle that the higher skill level will trump the cartridge performance level. The higher skill set tends to win, on rare occasions there's an upset, but that's a statistical anomaly, not a general trend.
Equal shooter skill sets under equal conditions are won through performance upgrade to reduce the human error plain and simple. It works that way in fighter jets, it works that way in auto racing, it works that way in shooting.
Again, we're back to you redirecting into a fool's argument of "which is more important, the shooter or the rifle?" We both know that answer, we're both in agreement on that answer. The point of the thread was performance payout on a cartridge in a gas gun for a barrel length choice. Cripple the weapon platform (in this particular case a gas gun that is handicapped already due to the gas system) and there will be an advantage to be had for the same shooter on the higher performing platform. Remember that comparison, your 18.5" bolt action shoots an almost identical bullet at the same speed as my 24" gas gun does, that's the crippling effect of the gas system that I'm referring to.
I can't believe you're going to honestly tell me that if I park you on the tower at RO with a 7 WSM and a shorty gas gun in 308 you're going to have less dispersion in the impact points at 800yd under all conditions using the 308 vs. the 7 WSM?
If that's the case, I'll put up a case of Redbull delivered to your address of choice that says you will tend (over 20 shots) to print a smaller group with the very high performance 7 WSM than you will with the standard fare 308. Same shooter, 2 known rifles, 2 known sets of dope, same range (800yd or as close to that as possible at the given range), same paper targets for group.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The quote I pulled above is testimony from your experience to exactly mine as well. Wind flags at the 1000yd burm says "10-12mph full value, right to left". But the mirage, the land layout, and the fact that I am shooting across 2 ravines and along the midline of a 3rd shields that wind. I hit the 1165yd shot on round 1 for a 12" square but instead of a 6.5 MOA correction, I gave it 2.25 MOA because I took all those little factors into play.</div></div>
What does this prove, you doped it appropriate for the cartridge you were shooting... it's the same as the Team Blaster w/ 6.5CM vs Me w/ 308 at 1000 yards, I doped it appropriately for me, you doped it for you. This shows SHOOTER EXPERIENCE and not cartridge experience. If you were using a 338LM you would have doped it the same way but for the that instead of doping it for 260... that is the shooter doing it right, not the bullet.
I saw, I knew, I changed... no where in there did the bullet do anything differently.
Less dispersion is irrelevant, who cares the 7WSM has less wind, if we are both shooting 600 yards, I hold my dope you hold yours, the fact you hold the edge of target and I am holding 1 Mil of wind is meaningless as long as we both shoot the same we will both hit the same. What you don't get is less means nothing... we see it constantly, people who bring wind cheaters miss just as much as anyone else, in fact many will miss more because they foolishly believe their bullet will make up the difference.
Holding 1 Mil of wind and hitting is exactly the same as holding .50 mils of wind and hitting, if the shooter dopes it right he hits, if he doesn't he misses. The idea that you will miss less space doesn't work that way, because if you screwed up the wind like most people do, chances are you will screw up some where else too like the trigger... I call wind every day, I call for many calibers, so I have a great grasp on the winds at RO, believe me when I say you will no succeed simply because you brought a better bullet. The wind there is beyond the error factor of every cartridge.
We have guys try to shoot the match with a 338LM and I have yet to see them smoke the 1000 yard shot above anyone else, they miss just as much.
What you need to say, is the usual, "all things being equal" the better bullet will win, but all things are never equal.
As well there are some things more important than speed, like knowing the cartridge. As long as consistency is there, and you know, you can over come a speed issue. People do it every day. It's why the 243 guys don't beat the 308 guys. And the reason F Class open is better than F/TR is because of the shots past 800m, the 308 is an 800m cartridge, because they shoot 900 & 1000 that is 30% of the shots going beyond the consistent range, so a better bullet wins.
However, It has also been show that if you have to carry the rifle, and work with the rifle, a shorter rifle has advantages, like less fatigue, which leads to less errors in shooting.
You guys are so on about Crippling the gun, why do you ELR types not use a Left Hand Twist as a matter of routine, it's the ballistically smarter choice in our Hemisphere. If I was building a dedicated rifle for ELR shots, it would be a left hand twist, period. It shaves errors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The quote I pulled above is testimony from your experience to exactly mine as well. Wind flags at the 1000yd burm says "10-12mph full value, right to left". But the mirage, the land layout, and the fact that I am shooting across 2 ravines and along the midline of a 3rd shields that wind. I hit the 1165yd shot on round 1 for a 12" square but instead of a 6.5 MOA correction, I gave it 2.25 MOA because I took all those little factors into play.</div></div>
What does this prove, you doped it appropriate for the cartridge you were shooting... it's the same as the Team Blaster w/ 6.5CM vs Me w/ 308 at 1000 yards, I doped it appropriately for me, you doped it for you. This shows SHOOTER EXPERIENCE and not cartridge experience. If you were using a 338LM you would have doped it the same way but for the that instead of doping it for 260... that is the shooter doing it right, not the bullet.
I saw, I knew, I changed... no where in there did the bullet do anything differently.
Less dispersion is irrelevant, who cares the 7WSM has less wind, if we are both shooting 600 yards, I hold my dope you hold yours, the fact you hold the edge of target and I am holding 1 Mil of wind is meaningless as long as we both shoot the same we will both hit the same. What you don't get is less means nothing... we see it constantly, people who bring wind cheaters miss just as much as anyone else, in fact many will miss more because they foolishly believe their bullet will make up the difference.
Holding 1 Mil of wind and hitting is exactly the same as holding .50 mils of wind and hitting, if the shooter dopes it right he hits, if he doesn't he misses. The idea that you will miss less space doesn't work that way, because if you screwed up the wind like most people do, chances are you will screw up some where else too like the trigger... I call wind every day, I call for many calibers, so I have a great grasp on the winds at RO, believe me when I say you will no succeed simply because you brought a better bullet. The wind there is beyond the error factor of every cartridge.
We have guys try to shoot the match with a 338LM and I have yet to see them smoke the 1000 yard shot above anyone else, they miss just as much.
What you need to say, is the usual, "all things being equal" the better bullet will win, but all things are never equal.
As well there are some things more important than speed, like knowing the cartridge. As long as consistency is there, and you know, you can over come a speed issue. People do it every day. It's why the 243 guys don't beat the 308 guys. And the reason F Class open is better than F/TR is because of the shots past 800m, the 308 is an 800m cartridge, because they shoot 900 & 1000 that is 30% of the shots going beyond the consistent range, so a better bullet wins.
However, It has also been show that if you have to carry the rifle, and work with the rifle, a shorter rifle has advantages, like less fatigue, which leads to less errors in shooting.
You guys are so on about Crippling the gun, why do you ELR types not use a Left Hand Twist as a matter of routine, it's the ballistically smarter choice in our Hemisphere. If I was building a dedicated rifle for ELR shots, it would be a left hand twist, period. It shaves errors.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Bottom line, bring your long 260 or anything else to the Bash, Competition Fee on me, and soon enough you will learn that your ballistic advantage only works on 1 stage out of 25 stages and that having a long ass rifle will be a disadvantage for more stages than it helps.
I am whiling to my money on it.
Bottom line, bring your long 260 or anything else to the Bash, Competition Fee on me, and soon enough you will learn that your ballistic advantage only works on 1 stage out of 25 stages and that having a long ass rifle will be a disadvantage for more stages than it helps.
I am whiling to my money on it.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
So everything about shooter experience/skill being the #1 factor we're in agreement on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, It has also been show that if you have to carry the rifle, and work with the rifle, a shorter rifle has advantages, like less fatigue, which leads to less errors in shooting. </div></div>
So why not, in your opinion, put an 18.5" barrel on the 260 gas gun just like the bolt gun you have? Your advice above was 20-22, why not 16.5-18.5 instead?
If you have to carry the rifle and work with it, why not go to a very light contour barrel. You and I have both seen light contour barrels run 10-20+ rounds and still shoot well. Cutting the barrel 3-4" shorter saves less weight than going from a MTU t a #3 sporter.
So everything about shooter experience/skill being the #1 factor we're in agreement on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, It has also been show that if you have to carry the rifle, and work with the rifle, a shorter rifle has advantages, like less fatigue, which leads to less errors in shooting. </div></div>
So why not, in your opinion, put an 18.5" barrel on the 260 gas gun just like the bolt gun you have? Your advice above was 20-22, why not 16.5-18.5 instead?
If you have to carry the rifle and work with it, why not go to a very light contour barrel. You and I have both seen light contour barrels run 10-20+ rounds and still shoot well. Cutting the barrel 3-4" shorter saves less weight than going from a MTU t a #3 sporter.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Oh, and PS,
I don't shoot 20 shot strings, if I was, I would build a rifle appropriate to that, as well I don't; think Jon is shooting 20 shot strings... last time I checked he wasn't asking this in the F Class context, this is Sniper's Hide and not F Class Shooters R Us.
Look at an F Class rifle versus a Tactical Rifle, they are build different for different missions. One is from the car to the line the other isn't. And FYI I have already stated I have won the 600 yard group shot in the field at ASC against a 7WSM I used my Harbinger, George a 7WSM... did I win they day, nope not at all but I did shoot the smallest group.
You want to talk hits, sure, now you want to play bench rest score.
Oh, and PS,
I don't shoot 20 shot strings, if I was, I would build a rifle appropriate to that, as well I don't; think Jon is shooting 20 shot strings... last time I checked he wasn't asking this in the F Class context, this is Sniper's Hide and not F Class Shooters R Us.
Look at an F Class rifle versus a Tactical Rifle, they are build different for different missions. One is from the car to the line the other isn't. And FYI I have already stated I have won the 600 yard group shot in the field at ASC against a 7WSM I used my Harbinger, George a 7WSM... did I win they day, nope not at all but I did shoot the smallest group.
You want to talk hits, sure, now you want to play bench rest score.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I would use an 18, I think my AW is 20" might be 21".. I would have to check, but I know Jon, he can handle a 22" and he is going to shoot ASC which has shoots past 1000 yards.
I know the context of his shots.
Majority of my gassers are 18 to 16".
PS, my 7WSM is 24" and i push my 175gr pills at 2900fps, I have shot it to 1700 yards.
I would use an 18, I think my AW is 20" might be 21".. I would have to check, but I know Jon, he can handle a 22" and he is going to shoot ASC which has shoots past 1000 yards.
I know the context of his shots.
Majority of my gassers are 18 to 16".
PS, my 7WSM is 24" and i push my 175gr pills at 2900fps, I have shot it to 1700 yards.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
The only reason I bring long strings up is for those that put a truck axle on a 16.5" barreled rifle because of consistency.
Your statement about tactical application and hits vs. misses negates the need for a super heavy contour on a stubby rifle. Your Hospitaler (? stubby 308 bolt action from GAP) has a pretty heavy contour on it. For a working rifle why not shave another 1.5lb from it with a lighter barrel contour?
22" because of shots past 1000? Now we're back to my initial advice, longer for performance at distance of 1000 and beyond.
If I can get the week from work in the fall, I will bring a 24" 6.5 CM bolt gun, the 260 gas gun is on its way out because the platform itself is just plain heavy, 18 vs. 24" saves a fraction of the weight that I want to shed off the platform.
The only reason I bring long strings up is for those that put a truck axle on a 16.5" barreled rifle because of consistency.
Your statement about tactical application and hits vs. misses negates the need for a super heavy contour on a stubby rifle. Your Hospitaler (? stubby 308 bolt action from GAP) has a pretty heavy contour on it. For a working rifle why not shave another 1.5lb from it with a lighter barrel contour?
22" because of shots past 1000? Now we're back to my initial advice, longer for performance at distance of 1000 and beyond.
If I can get the week from work in the fall, I will bring a 24" 6.5 CM bolt gun, the 260 gas gun is on its way out because the platform itself is just plain heavy, 18 vs. 24" saves a fraction of the weight that I want to shed off the platform.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I have nothing to do with the Hospitalizer, I did the Gladius, it is a light Varmint contour 5.5 I think @ 18.5"
I have nothing to do with the Hospitalizer, I did the Gladius, it is a light Varmint contour 5.5 I think @ 18.5"
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
That's the one I'm thinking about, still a relatively heavy contour comparatively. I didn't remember the name of the rifle.
That's the one I'm thinking about, still a relatively heavy contour comparatively. I didn't remember the name of the rifle.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Not really, it's technically a GAP Contour which is a modified Light Remington Varmint.
It's only contoured to match the SF Brake and suppressor at the end.
Accuracy International 26" barrels are a light palma contour as well and not heavy. Plus a lot of those decisions are economic because like in 2005 when GAP did the Harbinger it was introduced with a 22" barrel, the majority wanted 24" and finally GAP had to state it wasn't a Harbinger if you tried to order it with a barrel longer than 22"... because of people like you, the masses feel they are losing something if you go less... but still a 3" Group at 600 yards in a 12MPH from a 22" 308. Like the "warehouse" articles, the Magic number for a 308 is 21.75" all you need to know with that number. Not the 26" like a PSS but still people want longer.
Not really, it's technically a GAP Contour which is a modified Light Remington Varmint.
It's only contoured to match the SF Brake and suppressor at the end.
Accuracy International 26" barrels are a light palma contour as well and not heavy. Plus a lot of those decisions are economic because like in 2005 when GAP did the Harbinger it was introduced with a 22" barrel, the majority wanted 24" and finally GAP had to state it wasn't a Harbinger if you tried to order it with a barrel longer than 22"... because of people like you, the masses feel they are losing something if you go less... but still a 3" Group at 600 yards in a 12MPH from a 22" 308. Like the "warehouse" articles, the Magic number for a 308 is 21.75" all you need to know with that number. Not the 26" like a PSS but still people want longer.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
My advice on barrel length is from looking at peformance of a given cartridge at various barrel lengths. I don't feel like I'm losing something by shooting a 22 or even a 20 or 19 inch 308 against a 24 or 26.
Knowing the way the internal ballistics work I would feel like I'm giving up too much by running a 19-20" 260 vs. a 22 on a bolt action, or a 20" 300 WM for the ranges that those cartridges really excel at.
For the same reasons that a 338 LM would be wastefully short at 20"-22".
The warehouse articles have interesting information under a given context that isn't necessarily applicable outside of that set of conditions. The 21.75" thing might work particularly well on a 22 PPC bench gun but it is rather ludicrous to assume that 21.75" long works equally well on a 308, a 338LM, or even another 22 PPC with a different configuration. Somehow connecting my advice about wholly different platforms/scenarios to that is completely unfounded.
My advice on barrel length is from looking at peformance of a given cartridge at various barrel lengths. I don't feel like I'm losing something by shooting a 22 or even a 20 or 19 inch 308 against a 24 or 26.
Knowing the way the internal ballistics work I would feel like I'm giving up too much by running a 19-20" 260 vs. a 22 on a bolt action, or a 20" 300 WM for the ranges that those cartridges really excel at.
For the same reasons that a 338 LM would be wastefully short at 20"-22".
The warehouse articles have interesting information under a given context that isn't necessarily applicable outside of that set of conditions. The 21.75" thing might work particularly well on a 22 PPC bench gun but it is rather ludicrous to assume that 21.75" long works equally well on a 308, a 338LM, or even another 22 PPC with a different configuration. Somehow connecting my advice about wholly different platforms/scenarios to that is completely unfounded.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I've been told that the 21.75" rule was mostly the beer talking by someone well connected to the warehouse crew, but I'm still making him cut my 223 barrel that long because I like the story.....
I've been told that the 21.75" rule was mostly the beer talking by someone well connected to the warehouse crew, but I'm still making him cut my 223 barrel that long because I like the story.....
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Funny we are seeing a lot of 20" 338s in military context along with a shift to 16" in 308 gas guns, like the Knights EMC and OBR. This stuff is being used by Tier 1 groups with much success.
Seems the are all wrong.
Last year Tom Fuller placed Top 10 in the SHC with a 20" 338, first time the cartridge placed in numerous tries.
Funny we are seeing a lot of 20" 338s in military context along with a shift to 16" in 308 gas guns, like the Knights EMC and OBR. This stuff is being used by Tier 1 groups with much success.
Seems the are all wrong.
Last year Tom Fuller placed Top 10 in the SHC with a 20" 338, first time the cartridge placed in numerous tries.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
And what's the average engagement ranges for the platforms? Partial data, partially applicable...
And what's the average engagement ranges for the platforms? Partial data, partially applicable...
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Read the stuff from Larue, they shot the OBR beyond 1000 yards with success and the 338 works well across the board.
The Army sniper comp was just won with the 16" 308, beating a variety of platforms including the MK13 in 300.
With the last batch of new Cor Bon my 22" Valkyrie was getting 2770fps with the 175gr with no negative effects. The new load we have yet untested is suppose to top 2800fps.
Read the stuff from Larue, they shot the OBR beyond 1000 yards with success and the 338 works well across the board.
The Army sniper comp was just won with the 16" 308, beating a variety of platforms including the MK13 in 300.
With the last batch of new Cor Bon my 22" Valkyrie was getting 2770fps with the 175gr with no negative effects. The new load we have yet untested is suppose to top 2800fps.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
But at 22" your 308 is back up to a longer, more balanced internal ballistics equation. How do those numbers do at a 16" shortie?
My point is not that a short barrel is impossible, it's caliber dependent for performance. The 308 and 223 are pretty non-aggressive in capacity. The same is not necessarily true for a 300 WM in 18-20" or 22" long.
But at 22" your 308 is back up to a longer, more balanced internal ballistics equation. How do those numbers do at a 16" shortie?
My point is not that a short barrel is impossible, it's caliber dependent for performance. The 308 and 223 are pretty non-aggressive in capacity. The same is not necessarily true for a 300 WM in 18-20" or 22" long.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
That is why Barrett has the MRAD in 20" and Tom got a Top 10. We also have a 98B in 20"
That is why Barrett has the MRAD in 20" and Tom got a Top 10. We also have a 98B in 20"
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
We are over 2600fps with the 16" 308s with various loads including the new 316 mod 0
Blended powders.
We are over 2600fps with the 16" 308s with various loads including the new 316 mod 0
Blended powders.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
I use a short barreled 260. It serves me equally well at the range as it does in the hunting field. I prefer the shorter barrel ever since reading Warren Page's timeless 'The Accurate Rifle', published in the early 70's. Page, a benchrest guru, observed that, all other things being equal, a shorter barrel is more accurate than a longer one.
Having said all that, what Lowlight says here is spot on - The shooter is the #1 determinate. All the computer ballistics in the world with the most sophisticated calculus based algorithms cannot account for real conditions or even make the shooter improve his or her skill set. There cannot be a substitute.
I use a short barreled 260. It serves me equally well at the range as it does in the hunting field. I prefer the shorter barrel ever since reading Warren Page's timeless 'The Accurate Rifle', published in the early 70's. Page, a benchrest guru, observed that, all other things being equal, a shorter barrel is more accurate than a longer one.
Having said all that, what Lowlight says here is spot on - The shooter is the #1 determinate. All the computer ballistics in the world with the most sophisticated calculus based algorithms cannot account for real conditions or even make the shooter improve his or her skill set. There cannot be a substitute.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Powder blending is very cool technology, as that becomes more prevalent and triple base powders come into the general arena there's going to be a lot of changes with the status quo of performance, be it short or long barrel.
Jay- I said the same thing Frank and I aren't butting heads about computer modeling being more/less important to the equation than the shooter's role. I'm using it to address comparisons on the caveat that the shooter is the #1 variable in the entire system. Perhaps that wasn't clear from the back and forth, but he and I don't disagree that the shooter is first far above everything else.
Powder blending is very cool technology, as that becomes more prevalent and triple base powders come into the general arena there's going to be a lot of changes with the status quo of performance, be it short or long barrel.
Jay- I said the same thing Frank and I aren't butting heads about computer modeling being more/less important to the equation than the shooter's role. I'm using it to address comparisons on the caveat that the shooter is the #1 variable in the entire system. Perhaps that wasn't clear from the back and forth, but he and I don't disagree that the shooter is first far above everything else.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL
what was the load to get over 2600 out of the 16"er?</div></div>
I don't have my notebook with me, but I think the OBR was around 2575fps with Mk 316, and I know the Cor Bon is faster... but I don't have any details here with me home.
My GAP can push it with a Tight bore to just over 2605fps maybe a tick more.
None of our 16's shoot M118LR or Mk 316, as well as a few others under 2550fps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL
what was the load to get over 2600 out of the 16"er?</div></div>
I don't have my notebook with me, but I think the OBR was around 2575fps with Mk 316, and I know the Cor Bon is faster... but I don't have any details here with me home.
My GAP can push it with a Tight bore to just over 2605fps maybe a tick more.
None of our 16's shoot M118LR or Mk 316, as well as a few others under 2550fps.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
O.k I think I have an answer as to where I want Flounder to chop the blank but before I do...... I will argue either side of this and bring the rifle with me for the spot at the Bash. or I can argue either way on the 7wsm thing and bring a 27" Badger to prove my point.
How ever you need me to take a stand.. I will, and show up to prove my point....I need the spot!!
O.k I think I have an answer as to where I want Flounder to chop the blank but before I do...... I will argue either side of this and bring the rifle with me for the spot at the Bash. or I can argue either way on the 7wsm thing and bring a 27" Badger to prove my point.
How ever you need me to take a stand.. I will, and show up to prove my point....I need the spot!!
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
There is a big reason why the 7 WSM took the top three spots at ASC last spring. With unknown distances at 90% of the targets a ballistic advantage is your friend.
With the way Great score Brad posted at ASC with a 308 we all better watch out....Because I feel with a balisticslly superior 284 Winchester he will post a even better score this year.
Yes you have to drive a rifle...but if John, Jared, or Dave are shooting a 7WSM at ASC they should ( And I'd bet money) all conditions being the same they will post a hell of alot better score shooting a 7WSM than a 308Win
Why..........
Margin of error increases for reading the numerous diffrent winds from the shooter to the target.
Margin of error increase for milling targets at unknown ranges
The 7 WSM is ballistically superior to a 308 so it helps the shooter. Can't see how you can argue that.
Is Jared, Dave, and John a better rifle shooter than myself??? Sure!!!!
Could the 3 of those guys beat at ASC with them shooting a 308 and me shooting a 7 WSM??? Sure!!
But the big 7s give them a better score for sure!!!
There is a big reason why the 7 WSM took the top three spots at ASC last spring. With unknown distances at 90% of the targets a ballistic advantage is your friend.
With the way Great score Brad posted at ASC with a 308 we all better watch out....Because I feel with a balisticslly superior 284 Winchester he will post a even better score this year.
Yes you have to drive a rifle...but if John, Jared, or Dave are shooting a 7WSM at ASC they should ( And I'd bet money) all conditions being the same they will post a hell of alot better score shooting a 7WSM than a 308Win
Why..........
Margin of error increases for reading the numerous diffrent winds from the shooter to the target.
Margin of error increase for milling targets at unknown ranges
The 7 WSM is ballistically superior to a 308 so it helps the shooter. Can't see how you can argue that.
Is Jared, Dave, and John a better rifle shooter than myself??? Sure!!!!
Could the 3 of those guys beat at ASC with them shooting a 308 and me shooting a 7 WSM??? Sure!!
But the big 7s give them a better score for sure!!!
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Those guys shoot ASC a lot, they experience and repeated attendance has more to do with it, trust me on that.
Back when ASC was young, and I was there from the second one on, many were beat by ballistically inferior bullets like the 308. As I stated, I shot a 7WSM at ASC and came in second, along with George and Jeff, but we where multiple repeat attendees, so it actually tells very little.
The better shooter rises, and experience counts especially in a. Field match with few changes from year to year. It's how Mike Kolar with a 260 beat my 7WSM at Raton, he had 6 years experience shooting the match, not to mention he set up the course. Ballistically the 260 is lost to my 7.
As a PS the last time I shot ASC i was lucky if I needed to range a 1/4 of the targets, most were known and recorded, few of the stages were truly unknown. So you need to keep this in context of the facts, group spotting, group ranging, and years of experience changes the facts of the outcomes.
We put on two big matches a year, so the experience with ballistically better bullets is not lost, but it clearly gives no help to the back 20 contenders, only the Top 10 take advantage of it.
Those guys shoot ASC a lot, they experience and repeated attendance has more to do with it, trust me on that.
Back when ASC was young, and I was there from the second one on, many were beat by ballistically inferior bullets like the 308. As I stated, I shot a 7WSM at ASC and came in second, along with George and Jeff, but we where multiple repeat attendees, so it actually tells very little.
The better shooter rises, and experience counts especially in a. Field match with few changes from year to year. It's how Mike Kolar with a 260 beat my 7WSM at Raton, he had 6 years experience shooting the match, not to mention he set up the course. Ballistically the 260 is lost to my 7.
As a PS the last time I shot ASC i was lucky if I needed to range a 1/4 of the targets, most were known and recorded, few of the stages were truly unknown. So you need to keep this in context of the facts, group spotting, group ranging, and years of experience changes the facts of the outcomes.
We put on two big matches a year, so the experience with ballistically better bullets is not lost, but it clearly gives no help to the back 20 contenders, only the Top 10 take advantage of it.
Re: 260 in a 22' gas gun
Comparing bolt gun velocities to gas gun velocities with regards to barrel length is apples and oranges. I'm going to have a 26" barrel made for my LMT MWS in 6.5 Creedmoor...I HOPE I can get in the 2750's fps but I'm not sure it will happen. I personally don't see a need to shorten a barrel. Every match I've shot with the 28" MTU contoured barrels were fine...they never encumbered me. I'm not shooting a bolt gun in a telephone booth. All my rifles weigh at least 16 lbs as well.
So Bohem I agree with you on your assessment of barrel length for gas guns. I also agree with Frank and Bohem that it's the archer not the bow...mostly...as I'm sure I have beaten guy's due to catching an edge and making the points verse missing it totally. When and where that has happened I'll never know but I do know I'm never correct 100% of the time in regards to wind calls and range estimation.
Respectfully,
--KJ
Comparing bolt gun velocities to gas gun velocities with regards to barrel length is apples and oranges. I'm going to have a 26" barrel made for my LMT MWS in 6.5 Creedmoor...I HOPE I can get in the 2750's fps but I'm not sure it will happen. I personally don't see a need to shorten a barrel. Every match I've shot with the 28" MTU contoured barrels were fine...they never encumbered me. I'm not shooting a bolt gun in a telephone booth. All my rifles weigh at least 16 lbs as well.
So Bohem I agree with you on your assessment of barrel length for gas guns. I also agree with Frank and Bohem that it's the archer not the bow...mostly...as I'm sure I have beaten guy's due to catching an edge and making the points verse missing it totally. When and where that has happened I'll never know but I do know I'm never correct 100% of the time in regards to wind calls and range estimation.
Respectfully,
--KJ
