.260 "replacement" and cases "manufacturing"

[Cat64]

Hello guys, hope 2014 it's been great thus far for everyone. I recently asked a question about a .243 build (replacing and older rifle in this caliber for which I reload). In the process on connecting all the dots I had the idea of going with a .260 instead. What do you guys think? I have a 308 and a 6mm BR and thought it might be beneficial to have something "in the middle". I only shoot target up to 1k. I shoot around 40 rounds/wk (one caliber that is). Share some thoughts with me vis-a-vis my quest. I am wondering about availability of reloading supplies...etc? Thus far I have done my research concerning ballistics for this cartridge. Also I read someone suggesting one can obtain cases by necking up the 243 cases...it seems too simple...what am I missing here?

 

[09jisaac]

It seems like you are missing nothing. I too have been researching .260.

It SEEMS you can just take a full length sizing die and size any .308 parent case into any other .308 parent die. This includes the .243, .260, 7mm, and .308.

Hopefully someone will educate both of us on this matter. I almost completely overlooked the .260 because of the price of cases.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

It SEEMS you can just take a full length sizing die and size any .308 parent case into any other .308 parent die. This includes the .243, .260, 7mm, and .308.

Assuming RP or Winchester brass:

.243 necks to .260 just fine, and 7mm-08 necks down to 260 just fine.

Necking .243 up to 7mm-08 is pushing it a little but works ok. Necking 7mm-08 down to .243 really needs a neck turn. Hardly worth it because .243 brass is a lot easier to get than 7mm-08 anyway.

.260 necks up to 7mm-08 well, and down to .243...but again, because .243 is so much more available and cheaper than .260, I don't know why you'd do it.

.308 doesn't neck down to .243, .260 or 7mm-08 all that well. .308 is about .025" shorter than the rest of them, so you end up with short cases with thick necks. Of course it can be done, but it's quite a bit of work.

Of course, some chambers are really generous and you can get away with necking .308 down ok, but that will be on a case by case basis.

 

[Cat64]

Assuming RP or Winchester brass:

.243 necks to .260 just fine, and 7mm-08 necks down to 260 just fine.

I asked because I have numerous cases for the .243.... Exactly the brands you mentioned
So...to neck the 243 to 260 I would have to buy FL sizing die (260) and just " work' em out" . Any procedure required post resizing or I am good to go at this point?

 

[Cat64]

I want to get from NSS a 28" bull barrel (CBI 8 twist) in a .260 a Savage Target Action – RB/LP - .473 bolt face with trigger guard, and a stock from...(I am open to suggestions...). If I am not mistaken the spacing would be 4.40 correct? What you guys think?

 

[LRShooter101]

If you are already running 2 Short Actions, not sure if it might benefit you to add a Long Action to your collection?

I would say that because it would give you more options down the road if you ever decide to go beyond 1,000 yards? With a Long Action you can run a lot of really good rounds like a 7mm Mag or .300 WM.

I just added a Long Action .284 to my collection, in order to be able to take advantage of the great 7mm bullets like the Berger 180 Hybrid. I picked the .284 because I did not want a barrel burner or something that required a Brake. At 1,000 yards and beyond, it is going to do much better than a .243 or .260, especially in terms of wind.

If you don't want to go Long Action, then you might want to look at something like a 7mm WSM in a Short Action. Once again you can take full advantage of the 7mm bullets, as long as the recoil and barrel life does not become a deal breaker.

I love my .260, and shoot it very frequently, however if you follow the world of competitive shooting at 1,000 yards or beyond, the 7mm rounds are knocking the 6mm and 6.5mm off of the winners podium on a very regular basis due to their wind performance. Assuming the comparison is "Apples to Apples", a 7mm is always going to beat a 6mm or 6.5mm at distance in terms of wind.

Really have to look at the pros & cons, and then decide what really matters to you the most?

 

[rrflyer]

Necking 243 up to 260 will probably require you to neck turn the brass or you'll get donuts.

Necking 308 down you'll probably have to neck turn because the case necks will be too thick.

 

[Cat64]

If you are already running 2 Short Actions, not sure if it might benefit you to add a Long Action to your collection?

I would say that because it would give you more options down the road if you ever decide to go beyond 1,000 yards? With a Long Action you can run a lot of really good rounds like a 7mm Mag or .300 WM.

I just added a Long Action .284 to my collection, in order to be able to take advantage of the great 7mm bullets like the Berger 180 Hybrid. I picked the .284 because I did not want a barrel burner or something that required a Brake. At 1,000 yards and beyond, it is going to do much better than a .243 or .260, especially in terms of wind.

If you don't want to go Long Action, then you might want to look at something like a 7mm WSM in a Short Action. Once again you can take full advantage of the 7mm bullets, as long as the recoil and barrel life does not become a deal breaker.

I love my .260, and shoot it very frequently, however if you follow the world of competitive shooting at 1,000 yards or beyond, the 7mm rounds are knocking the 6mm and 6.5mm off of the winners podium on a very regular basis due to their wind performance. Assuming the comparison is "Apples to Apples", a 7mm is always going to beat a 6mm or 6.5mm at distance in terms of wind.

Really have to look at the pros & cons, and then decide what really matters to you the most?

All excellent points. I thought about that route believe me. Can a 260 be build on a Long Action? I wanted to do more shooting at 1k and under ( this is what I have available for now) and wanted to avoid the stronger recoil. I somewhat thought my next rifle, a few years later perhaps, might be a more customized ( including the action) rifle in one of the calibers you mentioned. You know, regardless of the choice someone somewhere will have a convergent/adjacent view. But I am with you. Does savage sell any LA separately?

 

[leadbullet]

Did the same thing over a year ago, burned the 243 barrel and replaced it with a 260. Necked and annealed all my 243 brass to 260 and have only one regret, wasting time with a 243, should have done a 260 a long long time ago, it is my all time favorite caliber and haven't found a bullet weight that didn't shoot great. Took it to 1250 yds with great success too.
Cheers.

 

[LRJammer]

I want to get from NSS a 28" bull barrel (CBI 8 twist) in a .260 a Savage Target Action – RB/LP - .473 bolt face with trigger guard, and a stock from...(I am open to suggestions...). If I am not mistaken the spacing would be 4.40 correct? What you guys think?

I built a 260 on a CBI barrel from NSS and it is extremely accurate. At least as accurate as my Bartlein and Rock Creek barrels. You can form your brass by necking up 243 or necking down 7mm08 brass. It can be done from a 308 parent case but it is best if you do it in two steps, first to 7mm, then down to .264". You will need to learn how to anneal your brass as it will crack at the neck after just a few loads but it is pretty easy. Do a search of the reloading forums and there are videos on Youtube covering it.

 

[LRShooter101]

If you were only going to run a single rifle/caliber I would without doubt tell you that a .260 (or equivalent) is very hard to beat. Per above, .260 has been my go to rifle for many years.

However, since you are already running the 6mm BR, the .260 is only going to give you a little more in terms of performance at distance.

If you follow 1,000 yard F-Class, you will see that the 7mm's have pretty much replaced the 6.5mm's at the top of the competitive level.
7mm Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com
On the "low end" the .284 is the go to, and on the top end the 7mm WSM is the go to.

Big questions IMHO:
- Distance: if you are shooting inside of 600 yards, your 6mm BR will obviously get it done. From 600-1,000, the .260 will do very well. At 1,000 and beyond, a 7mm is really going to perform best.
- Recoil: no issue with the .260, the .284 is doable in a heavier rifle or with a muzzle device, the 7mm WSM is going to require a muzzle device.
- Barrel Life: no issue with the .260, the .284 if not hot-rodded is good, the 7mm WSM can go fairly quickly depending on how hard it is run.
- Factory Rifle - if you are looking for an off the shelf rifle with this one, that is obviously really going to limit your options.

On the Long Action, you can build and run a .260 off of one, however it is really not the best route if that is all you will ever do with that receiver. Per above, if you are thinking about a larger caliber rebuild down the road, the Long Action will give you a lot more options.

IMHO, take a real hard look at the ballistics for you 6mm BR, and compare them to a .260, and I think you will be surprised how little difference there is inside of 600 yards. Once you go out past 600 yards, compare the ballistics of the .260 to a 7mm and see what you think?

If it comes down to, off the shelf rifle and ammo, low recoil, good barrel life, then the .260 is your answer IMHO.

If you are really looking to improve your performance past 600 yards, then I would have to say give the 7mm's a look.

 

[Cat64]

If you were only going to run a single rifle/caliber I would without doubt tell you that a .260 (or equivalent) is very hard to beat. Per above, .260 has been my go to rifle for many years.

However, since you are already running the 6mm BR, the .260 is only going to give you a little more in terms of performance at distance.

If you follow 1,000 yard F-Class, you will see that the 7mm's have pretty much replaced the 6.5mm's at the top of the competitive level.
7mm Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com
On the "low end" the .284 is the go to, and on the top end the 7mm WSM is the go to.

Big questions IMHO:
- Distance: if you are shooting inside of 600 yards, your 6mm BR will obviously get it done. From 600-1,000, the .260 will do very well. At 1,000 and beyond, a 7mm is really going to perform best.
- Recoil: no issue with the .260, the .284 is doable in a heavier rifle or with a muzzle device, the 7mm WSM is going to require a muzzle device.
- Barrel Life: no issue with the .260, the .284 if not hot-rodded is good, the 7mm WSM can go fairly quickly depending on how hard it is run.
- Factory Rifle - if you are looking for an off the shelf rifle with this one, that is obviously really going to limit your options.

On the Long Action, you can build and run a .260 off of one, however it is really not the best route if that is all you will ever do with that receiver. Per above, if you are thinking about a larger caliber rebuild down the road, the Long Action will give you a lot more options.

IMHO, take a real hard look at the ballistics for you 6mm BR, and compare them to a .260, and I think you will be surprised how little difference there is inside of 600 yards. Once you go out past 600 yards, compare the ballistics of the .260 to a 7mm and see what you think?

If it comes down to, off the shelf rifle and ammo, low recoil, good barrel life, then the .260 is your answer IMHO.

If you are really looking to improve your performance past 600 yards, then I would have to say give the 7mm's a look.

I appreciate your answer and the ones above.(Leadbullet, LRJammer....). I honeslty do. I do not care about off the shelf ammo...unless the reloading supplies will be exausted. After I posted yesterday I have done more reading and learned about the .260AI. It seems it is a great round and I am considering that route. I like a lot the 7MM "train" though. What is the availability for bullets and poweders looking like here? I looked at International Benchrest Shooters and saw what calibers are winning long range competion. I started by looking to replace my 243 and arrived to the 260 and now 7mm...so many choices out there.

 

[Cat64]

Did the same thing over a year ago, burned the 243 barrel and replaced it with a 260. Necked and annealed all my 243 brass to 260 and have only one regret, wasting time with a 243, should have done a 260 a long long time ago, it is my all time favorite caliber and haven't found a bullet weight that didn't shoot great. Took it to 1250 yds with great success too.
Cheers.

Will you be so kind as to describe to me the entire process you employed to transform the 243 cases to the 260. I am assuming it would be the same if I will chose the 260AI route. Are the reloading supplies readily available. What powders do best in this caliber? Thaks

 

[Cat64]

And is a 30" barrel too long or not? NSS only sels the 260AI in a 30" bull. Will I have to compensate with a heavier stock to stabilize the weapon?

 

[TwentyFiveTwenty]

And is a 30" barrel too long or not? NSS only sels the 260AI in a 30" bull. Will I have to compensate with a heavier stock to stabilize the weapon?

I bought a 260 bull from NSS and cut it down to 20 inches for the Savage rifle I built to take HART at Thunder Ranch. It's a bit of a truck axle.

It's also incredibly accurate, easy to maneuver, and has very little recoil.

Short Boomershoot video of 6 inch reactive targets at 700 yards here:
http://youtu.be/KYAesgBmBFY

 

[Unknown]

I necked down about 250 Winchester 7mm-08 cases without any problems. No donuts, and the necks are the perfect thickness without turning them. I get a perfect burn ring of carbon about 75% of the way down the neck, and it stops beautifully. So far, the cases have about 4 firings, and I don't push the cases too hard. With 140-144 grain bullets, velocity runs 2850-2888 fps with no detectable pressure signs. Necks were annealed at firing #3.

 

[Cat64]

Did the same thing over a year ago, burned the 243 barrel and replaced it with a 260. Necked and annealed all my 243 brass to 260 and have only one regret, wasting time with a 243, should have done a 260 a long long time ago, it is my all time favorite caliber and haven't found a bullet weight that didn't shoot great. Took it to 1250 yds with great success too.
Cheers.

Do you anneal before resizing to the new caliber or after? I would assume before.

 

[Matt P]

Anything wrong with Lapua 260 brass ???, just pull from the box and reload.
Matt P

 

[LRShooter101]

First, I don't shoot Savages, so this is the best that I can do on that subject:
Criterion Barrel on Savage LRPV ? Pre-Fit Does the Trick « Daily Bulletin
That covers putting a 30" Criterion Heavy Contour Barrel from NSS on a Savage LRPV. Not sure if that would be the exact same as your 30" barrel setup you are looking at? Generally speaking, hanging very long and heavy barrel does require a very good receiver with a very good stock interface. If not, the weight, momentum, and leverage over time will work the receiver loose in the stock.

If you are thinking .260AI, then I would have to say check out what Terry Cross has done:
Terry's Tactical Two-Sixty AI
Big thing with an AI, you are obviously going to have to fire form brass, which is way more time and work, and you can't just grab some brass off of the shelf if you come up short and need it in a rush.

If you are going to neck brass up or down, I would strongly suggest getting some Pin Gages:
http://www.amazon.com/MC-2-M-251--500-001-Minus-Tolerance-Pin/dp/B0007PZF30/ref=lp_401593011_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1390483721&sr=1-3
You can buy them as set like the one above, or you can buy them individually if you want to keep the cost down.

With a Pin Gage, you can very accurately check the inside diameter of your case necks. This in the best way that I know to measure neck tension and catch donuts. When you slip a Pin Gage into the case mouth, it will travel down the first part with no problem, but if there is a donut it will stop or hangup as it reaches the neck/shoulder junction.

If you are going to run a .260, bullet diameter is .264, so I would get 2-3 gage sizes above and below that number, so .261-.266. You typically want .002 of neck tension, so the .262 gage should fit perfectly in the case neck, if one of the other sizes fits then the neck tension is either to tight, loose, or you are catching on a Donut.

With my .284 I size up Lapua 6.5-284 brass, and I have been able to quickly & easily find donuts forming with this technique. If you find donuts, you can either inside ream, or inside ream in conjunction with an outside neck turn. If you are going to size brass up or down and have not looked at the donut issue, then I would strongly suggest that you research it. Many people have tried many things to fix accuracy problems, not realizing their issue was ultimately donuts in their brass.

Sorry for the Pin Gage / Donut sidetrack, but hopefully it was worth something.

 

[Cat64]

Anything wrong with Lapua 260 brass ???, just pull from the box and reload.
Matt P

Matt, nothing wrong with the Lapua brass (actually I just bought 200 for my new 6 mm BR)...but like any other person who desires to keep the cost down (we like our toys and sometimes spend money we don't have on them) I looked into alleviating some of it by refurbishing what I already have and would not use any longer namely the 243 cases. So that is what is wrong with the Lapua cases

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Hello again, Cat; once again you are on a productive track.

My barrel is a 28" 1:8" Lothar-Walther pre-fit.

I believe it will mate up to the Savage Custom Action without any hassle. Yes, the long action would work, but in a single shot configuration, there is no valid basis for it. In fact, there is no need to build an entire new gun; the L-W barrel will turn your 6mm BR into the ideal switch-barrel rifle.

My stock is a McMillan A3, pillar bedded to my barreled action by McMillan. I have a Mueller 8-32x44 side focus 30mm tube scope listed at Amazon coming for $229 with free shipping, I just ordered it today. Although it's lower on the price scale. it has all the features I'd want, gets good reviews, and is listed by Amazon as one of their Best Buy picks.

My brass is made from Win .243, and I decided I'd leave the worrying to someone else, and simply resize it using a set of Hornady New Dimension dies with the elliptical sizer ball, then see what problems may or may not develop. None did. Easy-peasy. Since I don't seat my bullets deep enough to engage any potential donuts I've never seen any issues with or without them.

My load is either 142SMK or 140 A-Max, with 43.8-43.9gr of H-4350, loaded to a length that jumps between .010" and .020". I'm no wind master, but on that proverbial steady and/or calm day the rifle was capable of multiple consecutive X's at 1000yd. Mine is built on a Savage 10FP action, yours should do better.

The folks above are right about the .280 Rem being more authoritative at 1000yd, but it will require a long action, and no matter what you shoot, it could be several years on the 1000yd line before it begins to seem easy. Better to do it with the .260; less expense and less physical stress along the way. The .280 Rem will provide a lot more bore life than a 6.5-.284, the .260's proverbial Nemesis. If the .260 still seems insufficiently authoritative by the time it begins to burn out (I estimate the LW-50 Stainless in my barrel will allow about 3000 rounds before that), then make an informed decision about upping the ante to the .280 Rem.

For the record, I would have zero qualms about running the .280 Rem in a short single shot action. The empties will eject from my 10FP action just fine, and any unfired rounds can be ejected by simply disengaging the bolt stop and withdrawing the bolt a bit past it. Again, a properly configured barrel for the .280 could simply be another choice for an existing switch barrel rifle; the 6mm BR, .260 Rem, and .280 Rem all share identical bolt face diameters.

My .280 Rem load is 150gr Nosler BT over 55.0gr of H-4831SC. In a 28" 1:9" barrel I would give it good odds to reach 1Kyd supersonic, the real determinant will be density altitude.

IMHO, there is no better chambering than the .260 to bring a newer 1kyd shooter up to speed.

Greg

 

[coldboremiracle]

Cat, it sounds like your looking for specifics on making .260 brass. I was lucky to come into about 300 rnds of brand new RP .243 brass right before my .260 arrived, I bought the Redding .260 set with a bushing neck die, and the regular full length die. I replaced the sizing button on the FL die with the tapered button offered by Redding (made specifically for necking up cartridges). I ran all my .243 brass through the FL die, loaded and shot them. They have worked perfectly without any further screwing around, all I did was trim the mouths to square them up. Has been providing outstanding accuracy since day one.

 

[Cat64]

Hello again, Cat; once again you are on a productive track.

My barrel is a 28" 1:8" Lothar-Walther pre-fit.

I believe it will mate up to the Savage Custom Action without any hassle. Yes, the long action would work, but in a single shot configuration, there is no valid basis for it. In fact, there is no need to build an entire new gun; the L-W barrel will turn your 6mm BR into the ideal switch-barrel rifle.

My stock is a McMillan A3, pillar bedded to my barreled action by McMillan. I have a Mueller 8-32x44 side focus 30mm tube scope listed at Amazon coming for $229 with free shipping, I just ordered it today. Although it's lower on the price scale. it has all the features I'd want, gets good reviews, and is listed by Amazon as one of their Best Buy picks.

My brass is made from Win .243, and I decided I'd leave the worrying to someone else, and simply resize it using a set of Hornady New Dimension dies with the elliptical sizer ball, then see what problems may or may not develop. None did. Easy-peasy. Since I don't seat my bullets deep enough to engage any potential donuts I've never seen any issues with or without them.

My load is either 142SMK or 140 A-Max, with 43.8-43.9gr of H-4350, loaded to a length that jumps between .010" and .020". I'm no wind master, but on that proverbial steady and/or calm day the rifle was capable of multiple consecutive X's at 1000yd. Mine is built on a Savage 10FP action, yours should do better.

The folks above are right about the .280 Rem being more authoritative at 1000yd, but it will require a long action, and no matter what you shoot, it could be several years on the 1000yd line before it begins to seem easy. Better to do it with the .260; less expense and less physical stress along the way. The .280 Rem will provide a lot more bore life than a 6.5-.284, the .260's proverbial Nemesis. If the .260 still seems insufficiently authoritative by the time it begins to burn out (I estimate the LW-50 Stainless in my barrel will allow about 3000 rounds before that), then make an informed decision about upping the ante to the .280 Rem.

For the record, I would have zero qualms about running the .280 Rem in a short single shot action. The empties will eject from my 10FP action just fine, and any unfired rounds can be ejected by simply disengaging the bolt stop and withdrawing the bolt a bit past it. Again, a properly configured barrel for the .280 could simply be another choice for an existing switch barrel rifle; the 6mm BR, .260 Rem, and .280 Rem all share identical bolt face diameters.

My .280 Rem load is 150gr Nosler BT over 55.0gr of H-4831SC. In a 28" 1:9" barrel I would give it good odds to reach 1Kyd supersonic, the real determinant will be density altitude.

IMHO, there is no better chambering than the .260 to bring a newer 1kyd shooter up to speed.

Greg

Hello Greg,

Just saw your message. Well, I guess I decided to move along on "Savage" street and acquire a new platform. I would like to take some time and build a 260AI using a target savage action (at least this is my intention for now). I was contemplating a PAC-NOR 28" 1:8 twist barrel (my research concluded they are worth it) and a an unknown (yet) stock. This new quest led me on a path with yet more questions. One of them has to do with fire forming the cases ( I intend to use my 243 cases necked up). I wonder what dies are appropriate for this build. Hope you are well.

 

[TwentyFiveTwenty]

My barrel is a 28" 1:8" Lothar-Walther pre-fit.

Are these barrels large or small shank?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Are these barrels large or small shank?

Not completely sure, I believe they are small shank. Mine fit my standard 10FP action.

This new quest led me on a path with yet more questions. One of them has to do with fire forming the cases ( I intend to use my 243 cases necked up). I wonder what dies are appropriate for this build.

I believe the L-W reamers conform to SAAMI spec, which hasn't been an issue for me. I use a Hornady New Dimension 2-Die F/L resizer set which was gifted to me. I am of two minds about the sizer. I had some initial difficulty getting the collet that retains the expander shaft to stay tight. But I really like the elliptical expander, it makes easy work of expanding the .243 necks up to the size needed to seat 6.5mm bullets.

My health is actually pretty good right now, the persistent cough and congestion following Christmas has finally gone away. I've been staying indoors almost exclusively, but today the tribe ventures out to celebrate Celia's Birthday.

Best Fortune,

Greg

 

[MetroJethro]

Great thread. I have learned a lot by reading every ones posts. Thank you.

 

[TwentyFiveTwenty]

Not completely sure, I believe they are small shank. Mine fit my standard 10FP action.

I looked at the specs up. They are small.

I noticed you use 4831SC - love that powder. Not the hottest but it's incredibly consistent. I keep trying others & keep going back.

 

[BoilerUP]

I bought a 260 bull from NSS and cut it down to 20 inches for the Savage rifle I built to take HART at Thunder Ranch. It's a bit of a truck axle.

What load and velocity are you running in that 20" tube?

 

[Swift]

A majority of my 260 brass is stamped 243. Imperial wax, 1 pass in a FL sizer and go. No donuts, no pressure; it's been as reliable as the few pieces of 260 brass I have and longevity has been equal. Just measure em out after they're fireformed, you may have to trim em once to get em uniform, but after that you're ready to rock.

At least that's been my experience. YMMV

 

[TwentyFiveTwenty]

What load and velocity are you running in that 20" tube?

I tried 4831SC, 4350 and RL 19 and settled on the 4831SC. Fastest I got was mid 2700s but those weren't the most accurate loads. Eventually settled on 48.6 (yes, that's high) pushing Berger 140s running close to ~2600. Not the fastest but I like the precision.

Remington brass, CCI BR primers. #6 below was that load.