285 ELD-M .338 lapua Load development quandary

[totenfleisch]

I decided to develop a load for my TRG with the Hornady 285 ELD-M and Retumbo , and settled on the longest feed-able length I could make work reliably - 3.743" ( 0.143 over SAAMI, ~0.047 off lands). Lapua Brass, CCI 250 primers.

Does anyone have the latest load data from Hornady (manual) about this load? I worked a pressure ladder from 85gn to 94gn and encountered no discernible pressure signs. Primers looked fine, with perhaps the faintest of faint cratering that could hardly be seen under magnification compared to the 85gr or factory lapua spent cases. All primers across the charge board seemed to decap at about 3.5 lbs +/- .5 lb on the rock chucker lever.

I am a bit concerned that I am not seeing signs at this charge. Should I bump up until I find more apparent signs?

My 85.00 gn (~2500fps) foulers produced a 3 shot 0.4" group at 300yd, and my 93.50 gn pressure ladder placed 2 shots in the same hole at 600with less than 1/8" vertical dispersion @ approx 2777 FPS, with a possible node from 92.5gn to 93.5gn

Is anyone else loading anything in this range?

Rifle is a 27" 1-10 TRG .338 Lapua. Elevation 8,000', 80 F, right quartering 3-5mph wind

 

[ZiaHunter]

Running 91.5 gr. of Retumbo with 285 ELD-M. No pressure signs and low single digit SD at just a hair over 2800 fps. Load to the node that gives lowest SD and smallest group.

Lapua Brass
215M Primers
Defiance Deviant with Bartlein 26" 1:10 Heavy Palma bbl
COAl - max length that will feed from CIP mag. (actual length in my reloading log in the shop and too lazy to get it at the moment.)

 

[GIXXER2000]

I am surprised at how much powder you can run. I can only load 91.8 at 92.0 it starts to crater. I am running an AI-PSR so my COAL is a bit longer also.

Lapua Brass
215M Primer
91.8 Retumbo
3.785 C.O.A.L
2815 AVG-FPS
27" 1-9.3 Bartlein M40 Barrel by Dave Tooley


This is at 2500FT with 90 temp and I am able to shoot 1/2 MOA groups and have shoot this load out to 2500 yards.

 

[totenfleisch]

Interesting cross comparing your velocities to mine. Both of your loads are in the same range, producing roughly the same velocity, where as I am several grains above that to get that velocity. Makes me think my chrony is lying to me. That wouldnt explain the lack of pressure signs though.

I am no newbie to reloading, but the charges I am at without signs are concerning enough that I am looking for some other loader's opinions. I haven't been able to reference anyone loading this combination, and all I can find near this charge/weight is that hodgdon reloading's data states 94gn is the max for the 300 SMK at 3.600 OAL (SMK is .043 shorter; pretty minuscule difference and much shorter OAL)

 

[GIXXER2000]

I am using a Magneto Speed. When I shoot 300 GR Hybrids same COAL but I drop to 90.5 gr Retumbo and am getting an AVG FPS of 2731.

 

[totenfleisch]

looks like the Berger 300 hybrids are 0.100" longer than the Sierra 300 Matchking, and 0.067" longer than the 285 ELD-M.

The weight not withstanding, it makes sense that a lower charge with that bullet would be used due to the obviously lower case capacity with that projectile. It is interesting that 0.1" OAL difference of the SMK lends to a charge listed at 94gn vs 89?gn max for the Berger. I assume this also has something to do with the bearing surface, but still has me at a loss to the charges I am at.

 

[Dave62677]

It is Amax, not ELDm

Reload manual shot with sako 24 1/5" bbl

 

[53K5HUN-8]

I know it's been a few months, & it's quite possible this has already been considered/solved, but. . .

At risk of labeling myself an uber noob, I'll still ask: Is it possible that the elevation has that much of an effect on velocity/pressures? I'm not at all new to shooting, but very new to reloading/watching what my rifle/ammo are doing. I'm in NW MN at ~1000' above sea level. It would seem to me (with my limited knowledge of ballistics) that at ~8000', there is a vast potential for differences in velocity/pressures because of the altitude & associated air pressure.

 

[spife7980]

For external ballistics it would but while the bullet is in the bore it won’t effect much. Temperatures will change it but the external atmospherics don’t change the internal combustion chemistry. Powder has its own oxygen tied in at a molecular level

 

[powerspc]

I decided to develop a load for my TRG with the Hornady 285 ELD-M and Retumbo , and settled on the longest feed-able length I could make work reliably - 3.743" ( 0.143 over SAAMI, ~0.047 off lands). Lapua Brass, CCI 250 primers.

Does anyone have the latest load data from Hornady (manual) about this load? I worked a pressure ladder from 85gn to 94gn and encountered no discernible pressure signs. Primers looked fine, with perhaps the faintest of faint cratering that could hardly be seen under magnification compared to the 85gr or factory lapua spent cases. All primers across the charge board seemed to decap at about 3.5 lbs +/- .5 lb on the rock chucker lever.

I am a bit concerned that I am not seeing signs at this charge. Should I bump up until I find more apparent signs?

My 85.00 gn (~2500fps) foulers produced a 3 shot 0.4" group at 300yd, and my 93.50 gn pressure ladder placed 2 shots in the same hole at 600with less than 1/8" vertical dispersion @ approx 2777 FPS, with a possible node from 92.5gn to 93.5gn

Is anyone else loading anything in this range?

Rifle is a 27" 1-10 TRG .338 Lapua. Elevation 8,000', 80 F, right quartering 3-5mph wind

I know this thread is over a year old, but did you ever find a load that worked? I've been beating my head against the wall since the Summer chasing this.

Hornady Brass
Fed 215
Retumbo
Hornady 285gr ELD-M
27" Batlein Barrel/1-9.5" twist

 

[towerofpower93]

In for info as well. Just started load dev for my 26" 338LM. Did a velocity ladder with RL33 and the 285gr ELD-M, but didn't see any solid plateaus from which to jump into group testing.

Going to give Retumbo a try, based on a suggestion that it gave another shooter good ES/SD numbers which the RL33 never could achieve.

Planned velocity ladder with the 285 and 250gr Berger OTM in prepped virgin Lapua brass are as follows:

Hornady 285gr ELD-M
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.595”

Retumbo: 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95


Berger 250gr OTM
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Retumbo: 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95

Based on the OP noting nothing significant as far as pressure signs at 94gr, I might load another couple into the 96-97gr range, depending on how much compression I start feeling while seating.

 

[powerspc]

In for info as well. Just started load dev for my 26" 338LM. Did a velocity ladder with RL33 and the 285gr ELD-M, but didn't see any solid plateaus from which to jump into group testing.

Going to give Retumbo a try, based on a suggestion that it gave another shooter good ES/SD numbers which the RL33 never could achieve.

Planned velocity ladder with the 285 and 250gr Berger OTM in prepped virgin Lapua brass are as follows:

Hornady 285gr ELD-M
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.595”

Retumbo: 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95


Berger 250gr OTM
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Retumbo: 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95

Based on the OP noting nothing significant as far as pressure signs at 94gr, I might load another couple into the 96-97gr range, depending on how much compression I start feeling while seating.

With the 285gr with CBTO of 2.740" do you know where that puts you off the lands? I had the best grouping results at 20/1000 off the lands (ES: 23/SD: 10.38) and 91.0 gr Retumbo but the COL did not fit my magazine, so I loaded to max length that would fit the magazine which put me 26/1000 off the lands. That shot like garbage with ridiculously high ES: 150 and SD: 61

I've just gone back over some of my data and had the best overall ES/SD results at 91.0gr Retumbo, COBT: 2.8930" (63/1000 off the lands) and COL: 3.6980 ES and SD numbers were 2.53 and 1.28 respectively but I wasn't happy with the grouping. I think I may try that load again with hope that I was just having a "bad day".

I've gone to 93.0 gr with no pressure signs, interested to see your results at 94 and 95

 

[towerofpower93]

I'm .010 off at 2.740" CBTO. Got both the 285gr ELD-M and 250gr Berger OTM touching the lands with the Hornady modified case at 2.750" CBTO.

So as to not eat up too much case capacity I only came off .010" but figured I'd play with seating depth once a velocity plateau had been identified.

Starting to wonder of the big 338LM case, and the corresponding 1.0gr increments of my test, make the single shot velocity ladder an ineffective way to identify the start of a good load.

Worked like a charm in my 6.5x47L, but we're talking more than double the case capacity and the jumps in powder charge going from 0.2gr in the 6.5x47 to an entire 1.0gr in the 338.

 

[powerspc]

I'm .010 off at 2.740" CBTO. Got both the 285gr ELD-M and 250gr Berger OTM touching the lands with the Hornady modified case at 2.750" CBTO.

So as to not eat up too much case capacity I only came off .010" but figured I'd play with seating depth once a velocity plateau had been identified.

Starting to wonder of the big 338LM case, and the corresponding 1.0gr increments of my test, make the single shot velocity ladder an ineffective way to identify the start of a good load.

Worked like a charm in my 6.5x47L, but we're talking more than double the case capacity and the jumps in powder charge going from 0.2gr in the 6.5x47 to an entire 1.0gr in the 338.

Okay thanks; I went the same route but again, it would not fit the CIP magazine (not even close).

 

[towerofpower93]

Wonder if my barrel, which was throated for the 250gr Federal Gold Medal Match load, will actually work in my favor to get the 285gr ELD-M up to speed while still fitting the mag.

I have a chassis and mag which which can go to 3.850" though, so I am leaving a 1/4" of case capacity on the table seating at ~3.600" OAL. I'm sure that's going to cut velocity off the potential top end, but if I can find a load with good ES/SD that holds tight on target I can play with wind and elevation.

This is only for banging steel, so I'm not as worried about first round hits on an animal for an ethical kill.

 

[Safety_3rd]

I know i'm reviving an old thread but looking for similar load data.
Im shooting a proof 9.4 twist 28" and trying to develop a load. I'd first like to figure out a cip length round. Then play with some longer single feed later.
I did a ladder test based on the hornady manual but i maxed it at 91 of h1000 and should have gone higher because i wasn't seeing any pressure signs at all. Im using cci250s and peterson brass. I shot 25 hornady 285 match and 25 berger 300 hunter. I didn't record base to olgive i just sat them on overall length to fit the magazine but somewhere in the 3.7xx range. Ill probably do another ladder with my formed brass but looking for some input. Id like to stay with the h1000, the 285s and ther berger 300 because that's what i have.
Please let me know if you have any recommendations or pet loads.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Starting load development with my desert tech proof 26” 1-9.4” twist, 285 eldm and retumbo. Have 91,92,93 grains retumbo loaded .005 off the lands. No brake or suppressor, so yes, its gonna kick like a mad women.

 

[Safety_3rd]

You're crazy shooting that without a brake! Any chance you've got velocity data? Any pressure signs? Keep me posted brother.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Lol, well i gotta shoot it, its killin me and my brake wont be here till next week haha. Barrel is threaded 3/4 and i dont have anything to fit it. My damn chrono shit the bed so i dont have velocity numbers but when i could keep from flinching, it shot well. No pressure signs at all with those 3 loads. Easy bolt lift and no ejector marks. Now i have 93.5,94,94.5 loaded. But i am a tad bit scared to shoot them without the brake, and its -10 with a 15mph wind right now.

 

[regency]

I'm having good success with them seated about .070 off the lands (because of magazine) and 88.2gr's of H1000 for 2730fps range. ES is about 18-22fps on a given day. Lapua brass by the way.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

One great thing about the desert tech is that it has a 4” mag. Works great with these long buggers. I still got alot of room left.

 

[dimar1492]

My most consistent load on a AI AX:
27" 9.375 twist Bartlein Barrel
Hornady 285 ELD-M
Lapua brass
Federal 215 primer
94.9gr Retumbo
2915 fps
Very temperature stable, and single digit ES were not uncommon over a five shot group

 

[Farmerbrown32]

My most consistent load on a AI AX:
27" 9.375 twist Bartlein Barrel
Hornady 285 ELD-M
Lapua brass
94.9gr Retumbo
2915 fps
Very temperature stable, and single digit ES were not uncommon over a five shot group

Thats a hell of a good one. Hoping for the same outta my barrel. How far off the lands with this load?

 

[dimar1492]

Thats a hell of a good one. Hoping for the same outta my barrel. How far off the lands with this load?

Groups extremely well too.
I'll have to check my notebook when I get home to get you something on distance to the lands.

 

[powerspc]

Shooting Cadex Kraken with 1-9.5” twist 27” Bartlein barrel
Hornady 285 ELD-M
Hornady brass
92.8 gr. Retumbo
FED215 Primers
.060 off lands
2812 Avg. FPS (LabRadar)
ES runs between 5 (lowest) and 14 (highest) and is repeatable

 

[Farmerbrown32]

I have a lightweight hunting rifle chambered in 338 RUM not lapua, shooting the 285eldm at 2870fps with 89.5 grains of retumbo. I opened up the magwell for the wyatts 4” mag. Made a huge difference in fps being able to seat them way out there. They are also seated .005 off the lands. 26” 1-9 twist from carbon six. Shoots half moa. I came up with the fps by using my g7 rangefinder since my chrono quit, dope is perfect out to 1200 yards.

 

[Howland]

I helped my brother work up a load with 285 ELD-M, Retumbo, Hornady brass, 215M, 1:10 twist. Hornady 10th edition shows 81.7gr. start and 93.0gr. max. He started with loads at 1gr. increments from 82-92 and we saw zero signs of pressure so it could take a little more.

83, 84 & 85gr. all held under 0.7 MOA. He targeted 0.050" jump for the initial testing. Seating depth testing showed no discernable difference from kissing the lands to 0.070" off at 0.010" increments. That's actually OK because of magazine length.

Chrono went on the fritz, only reading about 30-40% of shots, so we couldn't get good ES and SD.

Next is fine tuning the charge weight which should tighten groups up a bit more.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

My lapua just started showing signs at 94 grain retumbo. Slight ejector marks, still easy bolt lift.

 

[towerofpower93]

Finally have some useful data to contribute. Gathered this today with a LabRadar and a ten shot group from a 26" barrel that is short throated and limits the 285gr ELD-M to a max OAL of 3.565" and max CBTO of 2.750". I'm jumping them .010".

Ended up with a 1.4" center to center 10 shot group, but this being my first outing shooting groups with this rifle I think those ought to shrink given more time on the gun. Also going to shoot slower and run multiple five round groups with breaks in between to allow the suppressor to cool and put up less mirage compared to the ten shot group fired in approximately 90 seconds.

Hornady 285gr ELD-M
Retumbo 94.7gr
Win LR Magnum primer
Virgin Lapua brass, necks sized to give .002-.003" neck tension
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.595”

Lo: 2841
Hi: 2861
Avg: 2851
ES: 20
SD: 6.4

 

[Safety_3rd]

My lapua just started showing signs at 94 grain retumbo. Slight ejector marks, still easy bolt lift.

I'm not sure how temp sensitive retumbo is but are you worried at all about shooting in the summer? You mentioned it's -10 degrees outside.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Retumbo has been extremely temp stable in my testing. but i wont push it that hard for a working load. Just seeing what the max is in this barrel.

 

[towerofpower93]

I had an ever so light shiny spot from the ejector in my 285gr load above. Couldn't feel a difference in the bolt lift and couldn't feel a ridge on those shiny spots with a finger nail once I got home.

Shooting in mid-50s yesterday, but I plan to take a few rounds out when it gets warmer before I take it to a match.

 

[Safety_3rd]

So I'm literally at the range now letting my barrel cool, and I think I've found my load. 92.5 H1000 Ill get oal and ogive when I get my notes back home.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Awesome. Great numbers!

 

[Safety_3rd]

I'm noticing some of your loads are 100 or more feet per second than mine... I'm happy with my ES but if I can keep that and gain 100 fps it would be better. Think it is worth it to switch to retumbo or should I stick with what I got?

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Honestly id just run with the load u got. 100fps dont really mean diddly. I had a sendero in 338 rum that i shot the 300 berger out of at only 2675fps but it shot into one hole and was extremely consistent and i loved it.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Found a great load for this 338 lapua barrel. 94 grains retumbo, 285eldm seated .005 off lands with a coal of 3.832 fed215m primers and once fired lapua brass. Shootin into one hole. Got my beast brake so shooting is alot more pleasant haha. Dont know speed yet. Loaded 10 up to do some long range testing with and will report back. Easy on brass and easy bolt lift.

 

[Safety_3rd]

Keep me posted, Im interested. I should get my thunderbeast 338 sr can this month so I'm hoping to do some velocity and accuracy testing with that once it gets in. The bummer is that it's still "in tax jail" so I can only shoot it at the ffls range and it's indoor and only to 100 yards... I'm going to be that guy shooting lapua at an indoor range... not sure if that or the guy shooting a braked 308 AR pistol at the pistol range is worse lol

 

[Farmerbrown32]

Lol i cant imagine shootin the lapua in a indoor haha. Just on my deck the muzzle blast is rediculous. Although it would be nice to be indoors right now since its -9 this morning. Just shot 3 shots at my 1019 yards rock and looks like they did great. Very little vertical. Ill get up there and take some pics after feeding. And looks like right around 2900 fps is the speed according to my g7.

 

[Safety_3rd]

I get my thunderbeast 338 SR in on Monday at my dealer/range I will try and go in and get some new velocity data. I am curious how much it goes up (or down?) with a can.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

I get my thunderbeast 338 SR in on Monday at my dealer/range I will try and go in and get some new velocity data. I am curious how much it goes up (or down?) with a can.

Get ur thunderbeast hot yet?

 

[JS81]

Quick question for everyone. I just purchased my first 338 lapua last week and am doing my first loads for it. Im reading CBTO at 2.740- 2.750 on a few of these posts. This puts the ogive almost into the neck on my rounds. I'm using new nosler brass, 285 eld m and 91.5 retumbo to start out. Being I'm used to 6.5 creedmoor, 308, 243 etc for loading it just seems off to me that the projectile seats that far into the case. My COAL is 3.565, is this normal for the 338 lapua?

 

[Howland]

At 2.91" CBTO mine barely fit the mags leaving about 80 thousanths jump to lands. That's in an RPR with the Accurate mags that came with it.

2.7244" is SAAMI maximum case length. I'm using a Giraud comparator gauge that is nicely made and worth the price of admission to measure CBTO.

 

[JS81]

At 2.91" CBTO mine barely fit the mags leaving about 80 thousanths jump to lands. That's in an RPR with the Accurate mags that came with it.

2.7244" is SAAMI maximum case length. I'm using a Giraud comparator gauge that is nicely made and worth the price of admission to measure CBTO.

Thanks for the reply, I bought an rpr as well and noticed the CBTO at 2.740 leaves plenty of space in the mag. Havent checked space to the lands yet, I'm going to do that tomorrow for sure. Hows your rpr shoot?

 

[Howland]

Thanks for the reply, I bought an rpr as well and noticed the CBTO at 2.740 leaves plenty of space in the mag. Havent checked space to the lands yet, I'm going to do that tomorrow for sure. Hows your rpr shoot?

If you're using the Hornady OAL gauge, I found it a little tricky. I got readings all over the place until I used a little more force pushing the bullet in.

.608 MOA at 200 is the best group yet, but I've only done powder charges at full grain increments so far. I'm also using 285 ELD-M but went with H1000 & 215M to start. I did spring for Lapua brass.

I'm pretty sure I can get that to tighten up. ES was all over the place. A low of 5 to a high of 152! The seating depth test batches are all rolled up and ready to go. I did notice during seating that the bullets seated with noticably less resistance into once fired cases with a little carbon left inside the neck than they did going into squeaky clean new brass.

I found decent group sizes at the low, middle and high end of the scale with groups in between nothing to brag about. Once I figure out how much jump it likes, I'll do more powder charge testing in finer increments.

I also mapped out the mathematical center of each group and plotted them on a chart. The centers of the 84, 85 & 86 grain groups fired at 200 yards can be covered with a thumbtack. Almost no point of impact change.

Good luck with your RPR. Let us know how it goes.

 

[towerofpower93]

Quick question for everyone. I just purchased my first 338 lapua last week and am doing my first loads for it. Im reading CBTO at 2.740- 2.750 on a few of these posts. This puts the ogive almost into the neck on my rounds. I'm using new nosler brass, 285 eld m and 91.5 retumbo to start out. Being I'm used to 6.5 creedmoor, 308, 243 etc for loading it just seems off to me that the projectile seats that far into the case. My COAL is 3.565, is this normal for the 338 lapua?

You are correct that the 2.740" CBTO length puts the ogive just above the case mouth. I had to do this in my rifle due to the throat being cut shorter to run the 250gr SMK and I'm only jumping .010 at that length.

You'll need to measure your rifle's jump with the Hornady tool or a similar process to see how far out you can go before contacting the lands.

 

[nitronida]

Savage 110 HS pre 338 LM w/ no modifications...forward action screw @ 40 inch pounds, middle screw @ 30 inch pounds, rear tang screw @ 27 inch pounds. I started loading with RL33 in nosler brass that weighed 326 gr ( 98.2 gr RL33, fed 215M primer, 3.765 OAL .002 neck tension 285gr ELDM, 2840fps avg @ 55 deg F, no real pressure signs ) and got fantastic results at short range, very accurate( .3 - .4 moa @ 300yds) , however had vertical disp at 900 yds...ES was around 50-60 fps if memory serves.
I am now using H1000 because I would not tolerate the ES being as large as it was.

285gr ELD M
LAPUA brass ( 332-333gr) 2.715 case length, .002 headspace
CCI mag primer
H1000 powder 88.4gr (89.8gr in NOSLER brass that weighed 326gr w/ fed 215 primer)
3.765 OAL ( .020 jump)
.002 neck tension
2820 fps avg ( ES of 20fps) @ 65 deg F and 863 elevation
no more than .002 run out on any cartridge ( I use hornady concentricity tool ) usually around .001 or better
I use the Frankford Arsenal coax press and hornady non match dies with an RCBS mech scale
I do not weight sort these Hornady bullets, just my brass
This load shoots right at 1 inch at 245 yds, have not shot it past that yet...weather and work have not cooperated as of yet

 

[towerofpower93]

Finally have some useful data to contribute. Gathered this today with a LabRadar and a ten shot group from a 26" barrel that is short throated and limits the 285gr ELD-M to a max OAL of 3.565" and max CBTO of 2.750". I'm jumping them .010".

Ended up with a 1.4" center to center 10 shot group, but this being my first outing shooting groups with this rifle I think those ought to shrink given more time on the gun. Also going to shoot slower and run multiple five round groups with breaks in between to allow the suppressor to cool and put up less mirage compared to the ten shot group fired in approximately 90 seconds.

Hornady 285gr ELD-M
Retumbo 94.7gr
Win LR Magnum primer
Virgin Lapua brass, necks sized to give .002-.003" neck tension
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.595”

Lo: 2841
Hi: 2861
Avg: 2851
ES: 20
SD: 6.4

On to the second firing on this Lapua brass and after annealing, FL resizing, and using a mandrel to set .002" neck tension my load with 94.7gr of Retumbo is running 20-30fps slower, leading to larger ES/SD as well as groups.

Figured this might happen so I loaded up (5) at 94.9, 95.1, 95.3, and 95.5gr to put on target and past the LR. Will see which can get me back in that 2850-2860fps range that was doing so well with the virgin brass.

 

[regency]

On to the second firing on this Lapua brass and after annealing, FL resizing, and using a mandrel to set .002" neck tension my load with 94.7gr of Retumbo is running 20-30fps slower, leading to larger ES/SD as well as groups.

Figured this might happen so I loaded up (5) at 94.9, 95.1, 95.3, and 95.5gr to put on target and past the LR. Will see which can get me back in that 2850-2860fps range that was doing so well with the virgin brass.

Had to do this as well. It didn't take much, about .2.-3 gr increase was all it needed.

 

[towerofpower93]

Had to do this as well. It didn't take much, about .2.-3 gr increase was all it needed.

Good to know. Comparing virgin to fired to FL resized brass it looks like I've picked up .006" of headspace, so I was expecting some changes. Guess the increased case capacity has lead to decreased pressure and velocity and a bit more fuel is needed for the fire.