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.3 - .6 MOA accuracy at 1000 yds in a 5.56? A bit hard to swallow.
- Thread starter Maggot
- Start date
So all I have to do is attach my handguard to the lower and make my rifle look like Kermit the frogs viagra boner and it'll set world records? Because that seems to be the insinuation.
Yes, that is precisely what you need to do if you want to be a super-sniper with a 5.56 bullet out to 1,000 yards.
Excellent, I'm off to get blades for the sawzall and some more JB weld.
Last time I did that my 3rd kid showed up 9 months later.
@THEIS
I know you sont like gun bunnies. So in the spirit of camaraderie if it would help you sell even 1 more small part I will gladly sit and run the "casting couch" so you dont have to.???
I know you sont like gun bunnies. So in the spirit of camaraderie if it would help you sell even 1 more small part I will gladly sit and run the "casting couch" so you dont have to.???
This sounds like the most reasonable explanation. Monday I might call them and ask. My AR varmint will shoot that kind of group at 100 all day.
Yea 100yd is completely reasonable. If you look at the manufacturer’s description, it goes from talking barrel profile and validation at 1k then rolls into the sub MOA performance results in the next paragraph.
It ONLY needs to be 42' tall! Now stop shitting on my indoor 1000 yard range dreams lol
It says on the page next to the gun bunny (fuck the article, gun bunny pamphlet is all I'm reading for this ugly shit), .186 moa @ 100 yards. above that it talks about "multiple hits on E type target" at 1062yds.
Im not saying it doesn't look like an oversized Predator dick armor but nowhere on the gun bunny pamphlet does it say .3-.6 moa at 1000. I do love that they call it the Athena Light ,at 9lbs
Im not saying it doesn't look like an oversized Predator dick armor but nowhere on the gun bunny pamphlet does it say .3-.6 moa at 1000. I do love that they call it the Athena Light ,at 9lbs
Is this 90% .25 moa group shooting in one of your video's? If so I missed that one?.
Please post, I'm willing to learn!
I would say Bullshit
Run a WEZ on the cartridge / Rifle and look at the probability
And GunsAmerica....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It’s because they are measuring Mils in moa. There was a vid a couple of months ago where the gun bunnies all meet at the range and shot some of these unobtainium barreled guns by the manufacturer in question. They all shot “sub 1/4 moa”! Yet you could clearly see they were shit groups.
Is a frogs butt watertight? Not when I get done with it...
It's not often that the PIAT is dropped into a conversation, but this IS the 'Hide, and this IS the 'Pit, sooooooooo. I guess it's bound for the cause! Thing is, their design was INTENDED to have the mortar-launch 're-cock' the device. That is still a HELL of a 'secondary-recoil' though.
And now, back to the Muppet's.....
And now, back to the Muppet's.....
What is innovative aside from the lower that prevents easy take down of the rifle?
Well I can think of one, no need to spend extra money buying a weight kit
I love this forum! Only here can we do a review of a sales flyer ripping a rifle to shreds while incorporating Muppet porn?
Well I can think of one, no need to spend extra money buying a weight kit
I love this forum! Only here can we do a review of a sales flyer ripping a rifle to shreds while incorporating Muppet porn?
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My first “Precision” rifle was a Les Bear Super Varminter. It was a honest (consistent) sub 1/2 MOA rifle. I frequently shot “lucky”sub 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yards. I was shooting at Tac Pro at the time and had to qualify to shot at 1000 yards. I was able to put 3 out of 5 rounds on target ( 18” round if I remember correctly) on my 3rd try. It was windy.
I shot that rifle at 1000 yards a lot (read more then anyone should). But, it was all I had... I learned to read the wind...
At my best, in calm conditions, I was able to hit a full size silhouette approximately 18”x30” consistently. I was not able to
Consistently group on a 2/3 silhouette. I did on occasion have a lucky string that was probably 1 MOA.
At that 1000 yards under perfect conditions, I still don’t think anyone can consistently shoot a 1/2 MOA group with a 5.56/.223! Can they get a lucky.... ONCE in a while... Sure!
But, in my opinion, accuracy is not judged by the best "lucky" group. It is judged by the consistent groups.
If I am being honest... I have personally seen very few people consistently shot 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards with any caliber under great conditions...
I shot that rifle at 1000 yards a lot (read more then anyone should). But, it was all I had... I learned to read the wind...
At my best, in calm conditions, I was able to hit a full size silhouette approximately 18”x30” consistently. I was not able to
Consistently group on a 2/3 silhouette. I did on occasion have a lucky string that was probably 1 MOA.
At that 1000 yards under perfect conditions, I still don’t think anyone can consistently shoot a 1/2 MOA group with a 5.56/.223! Can they get a lucky.... ONCE in a while... Sure!
But, in my opinion, accuracy is not judged by the best "lucky" group. It is judged by the consistent groups.
If I am being honest... I have personally seen very few people consistently shot 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards with any caliber under great conditions...
At 1000yds the wind will blow them into the group as well as out. It's a crapshoot at 1K to shoot a small 10 shot group. Now if you have a great tracking gun and the ability to get all 10 down there REAL FAST your odd increase......Hard to find a "Honey Hole" range where the wind stays constant out to 1K........
Bingo...this is the point. At 100 yards on a nice calm day, no/low wind, very tight groups from a well build AR with great barrel, match trigger, high mag optic and match ammo...not a problem, if the shooter does his part.
Try pushing a 5.56 pill out to 1,000 yards and still hold that 1/4" MOA group? Um....not so much.
I was being fast...factet....phaseshu.....I was being a smartass.
I tell you what the odds of that Kermit dick AR shooting 1000yd groups of benchrest quality, are about the same as me being able to spell facetious without spell checking.
This thread got me motivated. I reloaded some 69gr Smk with 25.3 vaget that got me .6 moa at 100 yards. LaRue stealth barrel was the best investment I made with the AR
Gents
I have checked our emails at Drake - Outside of this thread we have not received any inquires from anyone identifying themselves from Snipershide. So with what said this thread shows there is a lack of information on the ATHENA system on what it is or what its does.
There is a few things that need to be understood here that has not been released yet. Our website has very recently been upgraded right before the NASGW Show this week and we received more attention then we originally expected. We will be adding information daily.
The patented ATHENA Rifle system has addressed the some of the major and inherent issues with the AR15 and AR10 platforms. The Snipershide community has seen the advantages of the chassis as applied to the bolt action rifle. We know this first hand as we (Drake Associates) were the systems integrator for the Savage Stealth and Savage Stealth Evolution Rifles. On our resume, we have also have worked on the PSR Rifle solicitation with at the time Lake City ATK and PGM Precision in France. After working on thousand of chassis rifles, We have found that the same principles can be applied to the gas gun as well. We have been quite on Snipershide in recent years as our marketing was through ATK and VISTA. There was no need to run about what we were doing as this was accomplished by ATK and VISTA. We were ok with that. Also what you don't know about Drake is that we were major component suppliers to Lake City AAP, Winchester and Olin for M855, M856 and M80 Ammunition with case cups and bullet jacket cups and special programs for the US Military for 40mm Low and High Velocity grenade systems and other long range Sniper Rifle Ammunitions including the XM1022.
ATHENA System
Specifically regarding the ATHENA semiautomatic chassis rifle for the AR 15 and 10 platforms. This has been 24 months of development, patents and studies - We have found that by isolating the upper receiver group into a chassis that accuracy will drastically improve.
In that; the current AR market with the typical and current commercial free float tubes when utilized has an achiellies heel. When forces are applied to the forend, during bipod use, shooting from sling and other methods this actually creates a "moment" or energy transfer in the weapon when the weapon is fired. This results in forces moving through the commercial free float frond and onto the barrel nut then in turn are teansferred into the pin assemblies that retain the commercial common market AR upper. We have found that this has been a major issue that was never fully resolved.
What happens in the ATHENA rifle is that the AR type upper receiver footprint is solely isolated and directly mated to the monolithic chassis system. Think of this the same way the bolt action rifles are constructed when a bolt action is bedded or locked into a chassis system that the accuracy is gained. You all have seen the benefit of the chassis system if your are on Snipershide and most likely have a few in inventory.
In the ATHENA chassis rifle system, we have completely isolated the upper just like a chassis bolt action rifle. Absolutely nothing at anytime will influence of make contact with the barrel, gas system, or barrel nut system at all. In contrast, We have found that the current commercial style free float hand guard that utilizes the barrel nut attachment point can not isolate these features as the commercial system.
On the ATHENA With the upper receiver isolated - The rifle is able to shoot to the barrels potential without any of the influences as mentioned prior. (this does not mean that there are other influences on the AR platform but does mean that we have addressed one significant issue)
For those interested about one of our recent Testings (Vero Beach Florida 87 Degrees 70% RH/ 25-40 Feet ASL) was conducted using MK262 commercial equivalent - Federal XMGM556LR 77 gr OTM. We did receive on lab radar speeds as you have noted. 2737 FPS Average
Rifles were zeroed at 100 yards and testing data was obtained. Each series of tests were comprised of firing 18-21 series groups see notes below. Rifle was allowed to cool between groups. Rifle was bedded into a common test sled (nothing extravagant m-just to take some of the shooter out of the equation) Rest was secured to table/strapping and sandbags.
We tested our dedicated upper receiver (Drake Billet Upper configured with Satern Barrels 18" Heavy Contour match button barrel, low profile gas block with rifle gas system, Leupold MK4 with low profile PGM mount), with a commercial forend on a Colt M4 lower with matching trigger group that we have built for Drake along with matching Hogue grip and NEW Fab RAPS butt stock.
COLT M4 / Test 1 - In the current configuration of what is accepted as standard today, the Colt configuration proved average group sizes of 1.4 MOA (with environmental recalculation at 1.346 MOA) and the best group achieved was .701 MOA. (actually based upon 19 groups / we were weathered out for wind for a period of time)
ATHENA / Test 2 - That upper was removed off the Colt Lower, the commercial forend was removed from barrel nut, and upper was then placed into our ATHENA chassis platform. Again the same testing and cycles were obtained. Group sizes were significantly reduced to .742 MOA (with Environmental recalculation of .682 MOA) and best group on the match button barrel was .366 MOA. (wind condition at range allowed for this test to be concluded in 18 groups) This clearly shows and indicates a 49.3% increase in accuracy with the ATENA system.
ATHENA /Test 3 As for the image that you have noted with the rifle in the configuration with the Bushnell HDMR scope. This was another test run featuring the A3 upper with Satern Cut Rifle barrel in the ATHENA chassis. We ran the same testing with this configuration the rifle proved to run at .699 MOA (with environmental corrective group at .648 MOA) Best group fired from the series of 21 groups was .186 MOA. When comparing this data to the original data obtained on the Colt configured rifle this yielded a 51% Increase in Accuracy
ATHENA Test 3 NOTE Also we used the Bushnell HDMR on the A3 upper with the Satern Cut rifle barrel , the scope was also paired with NSN rings from BT Engineering. The Bushnell HDMR series has proved to work. This was the same type of glass that was on the Stealth Evolution rifle that we did for the US Army National Guard Warrior Training Center at Ft Benning for the US Army International Sniper Competition in 2017. Laugh all you want regarding the label on the scope, but the NG WTC did place 2nd Overall and Placed 1st In the Open Division with the Savage Stealth Evolution in .308.
Another Notable Accomplishments
Furthermore - Lets talk about the target at the 1062 yards. This was an independent test conducted on a installation with KD range facility with US military instructors, Using the ATHENA Rifle and 18" button barrel with the same lot of ammunition as mentioned earlier. With the 18" heavy Barrel they were able to hit at several opportunities when it presented itself at distance. They were able to hit 3/5 rounds as noted in the image. We feel that compared to a camp Perry hand built rifle the is a accomplishment especially on button cut rifling. Somewhere in this thread someone has mentioned .3-.6 MOA at 1000 - so you are clear, That study was not conducted at 1000 so we are not sure where that information was populated from.
SOPMOD-D Forend
A few have commented about the forend. Yes this looks absolutely different. The patented forend was designed to slide forward and out of the chassis system, allowing the operator to easily change the rail length for different use of night vision optics when a heavy or large day optic takes up more real estate than needed. The system is tools less allowing for easy change out, There is no need to un-bed the upper recover or remove the day optic. This will be offered in several configurations for more real estate forward of what was shown. Also in the images you will see 45 degree M-LOK attachment points. This was developed for MRD use on 45 deg. or we have a M-LOK that will give a true 90 Deg for use with LRF's or other specialty optics.
WEIGHT
Weight on the ATHENA with the 18" Barrels weighs as similar to the M16A4 system just under 9 LBS.
ATHENA LIGHT vs ATHENA HEAVY
Simply defined as Light or Heavy by CALIBERS - Light 5.56 or 224 Valkyrie and the Heavy System will feature the .308W, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor and .260 Remington.
If you have any questions of comments, I encourage you to call us at Drake 631-749-1100 or send me a direct email. Frank Galli is aware of our program and we plan on sending him a test rifle in the near future.
Best Regards
Chris Drake
Drake Associates
1130 19th Street
Vero Beach, FL 32960
631-749-1100
www.DRAKEASSOCIATES.us
cdrake@drakeassociates
I have checked our emails at Drake - Outside of this thread we have not received any inquires from anyone identifying themselves from Snipershide. So with what said this thread shows there is a lack of information on the ATHENA system on what it is or what its does.
There is a few things that need to be understood here that has not been released yet. Our website has very recently been upgraded right before the NASGW Show this week and we received more attention then we originally expected. We will be adding information daily.
The patented ATHENA Rifle system has addressed the some of the major and inherent issues with the AR15 and AR10 platforms. The Snipershide community has seen the advantages of the chassis as applied to the bolt action rifle. We know this first hand as we (Drake Associates) were the systems integrator for the Savage Stealth and Savage Stealth Evolution Rifles. On our resume, we have also have worked on the PSR Rifle solicitation with at the time Lake City ATK and PGM Precision in France. After working on thousand of chassis rifles, We have found that the same principles can be applied to the gas gun as well. We have been quite on Snipershide in recent years as our marketing was through ATK and VISTA. There was no need to run about what we were doing as this was accomplished by ATK and VISTA. We were ok with that. Also what you don't know about Drake is that we were major component suppliers to Lake City AAP, Winchester and Olin for M855, M856 and M80 Ammunition with case cups and bullet jacket cups and special programs for the US Military for 40mm Low and High Velocity grenade systems and other long range Sniper Rifle Ammunitions including the XM1022.
ATHENA System
Specifically regarding the ATHENA semiautomatic chassis rifle for the AR 15 and 10 platforms. This has been 24 months of development, patents and studies - We have found that by isolating the upper receiver group into a chassis that accuracy will drastically improve.
In that; the current AR market with the typical and current commercial free float tubes when utilized has an achiellies heel. When forces are applied to the forend, during bipod use, shooting from sling and other methods this actually creates a "moment" or energy transfer in the weapon when the weapon is fired. This results in forces moving through the commercial free float frond and onto the barrel nut then in turn are teansferred into the pin assemblies that retain the commercial common market AR upper. We have found that this has been a major issue that was never fully resolved.
What happens in the ATHENA rifle is that the AR type upper receiver footprint is solely isolated and directly mated to the monolithic chassis system. Think of this the same way the bolt action rifles are constructed when a bolt action is bedded or locked into a chassis system that the accuracy is gained. You all have seen the benefit of the chassis system if your are on Snipershide and most likely have a few in inventory.
In the ATHENA chassis rifle system, we have completely isolated the upper just like a chassis bolt action rifle. Absolutely nothing at anytime will influence of make contact with the barrel, gas system, or barrel nut system at all. In contrast, We have found that the current commercial style free float hand guard that utilizes the barrel nut attachment point can not isolate these features as the commercial system.
On the ATHENA With the upper receiver isolated - The rifle is able to shoot to the barrels potential without any of the influences as mentioned prior. (this does not mean that there are other influences on the AR platform but does mean that we have addressed one significant issue)
For those interested about one of our recent Testings (Vero Beach Florida 87 Degrees 70% RH/ 25-40 Feet ASL) was conducted using MK262 commercial equivalent - Federal XMGM556LR 77 gr OTM. We did receive on lab radar speeds as you have noted. 2737 FPS Average
Rifles were zeroed at 100 yards and testing data was obtained. Each series of tests were comprised of firing 18-21 series groups see notes below. Rifle was allowed to cool between groups. Rifle was bedded into a common test sled (nothing extravagant m-just to take some of the shooter out of the equation) Rest was secured to table/strapping and sandbags.
We tested our dedicated upper receiver (Drake Billet Upper configured with Satern Barrels 18" Heavy Contour match button barrel, low profile gas block with rifle gas system, Leupold MK4 with low profile PGM mount), with a commercial forend on a Colt M4 lower with matching trigger group that we have built for Drake along with matching Hogue grip and NEW Fab RAPS butt stock.
COLT M4 / Test 1 - In the current configuration of what is accepted as standard today, the Colt configuration proved average group sizes of 1.4 MOA (with environmental recalculation at 1.346 MOA) and the best group achieved was .701 MOA. (actually based upon 19 groups / we were weathered out for wind for a period of time)
ATHENA / Test 2 - That upper was removed off the Colt Lower, the commercial forend was removed from barrel nut, and upper was then placed into our ATHENA chassis platform. Again the same testing and cycles were obtained. Group sizes were significantly reduced to .742 MOA (with Environmental recalculation of .682 MOA) and best group on the match button barrel was .366 MOA. (wind condition at range allowed for this test to be concluded in 18 groups) This clearly shows and indicates a 49.3% increase in accuracy with the ATENA system.
ATHENA /Test 3 As for the image that you have noted with the rifle in the configuration with the Bushnell HDMR scope. This was another test run featuring the A3 upper with Satern Cut Rifle barrel in the ATHENA chassis. We ran the same testing with this configuration the rifle proved to run at .699 MOA (with environmental corrective group at .648 MOA) Best group fired from the series of 21 groups was .186 MOA. When comparing this data to the original data obtained on the Colt configured rifle this yielded a 51% Increase in Accuracy
ATHENA Test 3 NOTE Also we used the Bushnell HDMR on the A3 upper with the Satern Cut rifle barrel , the scope was also paired with NSN rings from BT Engineering. The Bushnell HDMR series has proved to work. This was the same type of glass that was on the Stealth Evolution rifle that we did for the US Army National Guard Warrior Training Center at Ft Benning for the US Army International Sniper Competition in 2017. Laugh all you want regarding the label on the scope, but the NG WTC did place 2nd Overall and Placed 1st In the Open Division with the Savage Stealth Evolution in .308.
Another Notable Accomplishments
Furthermore - Lets talk about the target at the 1062 yards. This was an independent test conducted on a installation with KD range facility with US military instructors, Using the ATHENA Rifle and 18" button barrel with the same lot of ammunition as mentioned earlier. With the 18" heavy Barrel they were able to hit at several opportunities when it presented itself at distance. They were able to hit 3/5 rounds as noted in the image. We feel that compared to a camp Perry hand built rifle the is a accomplishment especially on button cut rifling. Somewhere in this thread someone has mentioned .3-.6 MOA at 1000 - so you are clear, That study was not conducted at 1000 so we are not sure where that information was populated from.
SOPMOD-D Forend
A few have commented about the forend. Yes this looks absolutely different. The patented forend was designed to slide forward and out of the chassis system, allowing the operator to easily change the rail length for different use of night vision optics when a heavy or large day optic takes up more real estate than needed. The system is tools less allowing for easy change out, There is no need to un-bed the upper recover or remove the day optic. This will be offered in several configurations for more real estate forward of what was shown. Also in the images you will see 45 degree M-LOK attachment points. This was developed for MRD use on 45 deg. or we have a M-LOK that will give a true 90 Deg for use with LRF's or other specialty optics.
WEIGHT
Weight on the ATHENA with the 18" Barrels weighs as similar to the M16A4 system just under 9 LBS.
ATHENA LIGHT vs ATHENA HEAVY
Simply defined as Light or Heavy by CALIBERS - Light 5.56 or 224 Valkyrie and the Heavy System will feature the .308W, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor and .260 Remington.
If you have any questions of comments, I encourage you to call us at Drake 631-749-1100 or send me a direct email. Frank Galli is aware of our program and we plan on sending him a test rifle in the near future.
Best Regards
Chris Drake
Drake Associates
1130 19th Street
Vero Beach, FL 32960
631-749-1100
www.DRAKEASSOCIATES.us
cdrake@drakeassociates
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@Drake Associates We have one other shooter on this forum that you should consider sending a complementary rifle too. His user name on this site is @1J04. He's a great guy, great shooter and LE officer. Seriously, send this man a rifle. You can PM me, @Tucker301 or @1J04 for FFL info. Thanks.
Send him a fondue set, too, if you have a spare one.
Thanks for your indepth reply.
From the Drake post:
"Somewhere in this thread someone has mentioned .3-.6 MOA at 1000 - so you are clear, That study was not conducted at 1000 so we are not sure where that information was populated from."
It came from this article, perhaps you should contact them about it:
Drake Associates Athena Rifle--Where AR Meets Chassis Gun
https://www.gunsamerica.com › digest › drake-associates-athena-rifle-system
From the Drake post:
"Somewhere in this thread someone has mentioned .3-.6 MOA at 1000 - so you are clear, That study was not conducted at 1000 so we are not sure where that information was populated from."
It came from this article, perhaps you should contact them about it:
Drake Associates Athena Rifle--Where AR Meets Chassis Gun
https://www.gunsamerica.com › digest › drake-associates-athena-rifle-system
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Rifle samples need to be tested by unbiased shooters who are experienced enough to give a review that is honest and concrete.
There are a number of qualified people that will fit that bill in this forum, obvious applicants have been brought forward.
There are a number of qualified people that will fit that bill in this forum, obvious applicants have been brought forward.
Though I have legendary status, please do not send me a rifle. I literally have all the rifles I need, and none of them, look like Ziggy from Buck Rogers' cock.
Now that all that 1000yd business has been cleared up, we can all get along better I'm sure.
So the test was 100yds, awesome. Ziggy's Dick will shoot as good as any other well built AR 15. That's good to know.
I'm all for gun companies making money. A suggestion if I might.
I didn't read your long article so this might be redundant.
Don't forget the buzzwords. In order to make fan boys you'll need buzzwords, and fanboys. Sell. Rifles!
Thermal fitted
Proprietary (use this one liberally as an adjective)
Guaranteed
Now that all that 1000yd business has been cleared up, we can all get along better I'm sure.
So the test was 100yds, awesome. Ziggy's Dick will shoot as good as any other well built AR 15. That's good to know.
I'm all for gun companies making money. A suggestion if I might.
I didn't read your long article so this might be redundant.
Don't forget the buzzwords. In order to make fan boys you'll need buzzwords, and fanboys. Sell. Rifles!
Thermal fitted
Proprietary (use this one liberally as an adjective)
Guaranteed
Scroll to bottom of article. It has been corrected as of 10-27-19 to clarify MOA was not @ 1000.
That said, I never thought it was. It shows in the notes of the marketing flyer "Multiple hits E type target 1062 yards"
Chris, your marketing print piece could, with the juxtaposition of groups and claims for sub-moa and distances at 1000 yards, cause a customer to draw incorrect conclusions.
Also, respectfully, I'd suggest a more professional image other than a "gun babe" holding a "pistol", etc. etc.
Just my .02, FWIW.
Cheers.
Also, respectfully, I'd suggest a more professional image other than a "gun babe" holding a "pistol", etc. etc.
Just my .02, FWIW.
Cheers.
The article says 100 not 1000 I bet it was typo they were slow to correct
but I just looked it says 100
but I just looked it says 100
Hey, thanks for reading the information that was updated. We found the source of the problem where it was accidentally misreported on Gunsamerica.com. We read the article late Sunday and sent a clarification to them
You raise a great point and we are working on providing more data and information shortly including testing.
As for the gun babe - We named the rifle ATHENA. Athena in Greek mythology is the goddess of war. Its fitting as our model works for us as an administrator and she is also a shooter. We had to take some promotional photos ahead of time due to our tight timelines for release with the rifle so we asked her. If you notice, the final iteration of the rifle is slightly different, featuring either a PRS Style RAPS buttstock or a GL Shock buttstock with enlarged Drake cheek riser. Again, we do have new more material planned for release shortly including images of the rifle being used, etc...
Thanks
CD
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