3 gun build

[Tonsofguns]

looking to build a 3 gun rifle. My goal is for it to shoot as smoothly as possible out to 400 yards.

so far the only part I have is a jp ultra light bcg.

so here is what i am thinking:

18 inch rifle length (white oaks possibly.) Moa would suffice.

slr or jp gas block adjustable

I haven't picked a receiver set, but i am thinking jp, ascend, or let me know if you have other ideas. I am a lefty so max ambi controls are desired. Radian is another option.

battle arms safety, radian charging handle.

handguard: not sure yet, thinking jp or carbon fiber lancer

jp silent capture. Do these come with different spring tensions? The jp bolt i have is so light, wondering what buffer weight/spring tension would be needed to have it function reliably

SJC titan. I've never used this brake but they seem to be top rated. If you know something more effective let me know.

trigger: jp roller, geiselle 3 gun, or maybe something else. Single stage only.

lmt sopmod stock with vtor buffer tube. This is what i am used to using as I have this on several builds.

moa grip

 

[aslrookie]

You have a lot of JP parts listed. Just buy a JP rifle and you know it’s going to be smooth and ready to go.

 

[Tonsofguns]

You have a lot of JP parts listed. Just buy a JP rifle and you know it’s going to be smooth and ready to go.

yeah highly considering just doing that. I've owned a few jp rifles in the past, and loved them. I also really like the lancer rifles, which for some reason don't get the same amount of love.

 

[aslrookie]

yeah highly considering just doing that. I've owned a few jp rifles in the past, and loved them. I also really like the lancer rifles, which for some reason don't get the same amount of love.

I’ve gotten to the point where mixing parts is just a pain unless you’re looking for something very specific nobody offers. I understand the whole “milspec” thing but that’s just a minimum. When one part is tighter or looser than the other, it just makes it an overall weaker system.

Save yourself the hassle and just get the complete rifle. If you can’t swing the cash for the entire thing, just buy the parts over time all from JP and assemble it that way.

 

[Darqusoull13]

Yep, definitely go full JP. They can be fun to build if you already have parts. They also have some Ready Rifle builds in 18" and 14.5" configurations depending on your fancy.

Since the JP has an adjustable gas block the standard SCS will be great for either a light or ultralight bolt.

If you go JP add a thermal dissipator. They are awesome for pulling heat out of the barrel after a long 60-70 round all rifle stage.

Feel free to PM if you're thinking of ordering direct. I'll be happy to help with the rifle builder.

 

[BigBC]

If you want to save money you can buy the side charging complete upper for about 1750 online. Comes with everything you need to slap onto an existing ambi lower.

Im also a southpaw and saved myself the hassle of building a new ambi lower. The only thing I added to my lower was the Radian Talon Ambi safety, and either a Troy or Norgon ambi mag release. Both are good. The Troy has a more positive release lever, but it can mark up the lower (I dont care since i shoot my guns.) The Norgon is solid too, which stays in line with the frame of the lower, but sometimes takes a little more push to get it to drop the mag.

Picked up the silent capture buffer system with the different springs. Once you have that, the JP Low Mass BCG and an adj gas block, there's really no reason you can't tune that thing to your ammo with little to no recoil from .223

As for the trigger I do like the roller trigger the best. But you can't go wrong with a Geissele. I have Timney and it's good but not amazing. AR Gold really does it up a notch as well for triggers but that's pretty Gucci.

 

[Tonsofguns]

ok, you guys convinced me to just go full JP. Now i need to decide if i should get just the upper or the whole build.

I ran the rifle builder yesterday, and that thing is amazing. The other two jp rifles I had, I bought off the listings here, so never got a chance to play with it.

I already own jp ultra light bolt, so not sure what bolt to get as a second. Does anyone know the lifespan of the ultra light? I hear it's diminished due to being aluminum, so maybe i should just get a second of those.

I hear mixed reviews about the thermal dissipator, but you guys think it's worth the extra coin and weight?

Thanks!

 

[aslrookie]

I’ve never used a thermal dissipator, so take my advice for whatever it’s worth to you.

I would say “no.” I don’t know of many 3 gun matches where you shoot back-to-back stages without the barrel having time to cool off in between shooters. 90% of your targets don’t require much of a marksmanship threshold considering it’s just two anywhere or one alpha on cardboard. So thermal shift isn’t really a concern.

I personally think they are gimmicky. During carbine classes, you’re shooting that carbine all day long with very short breaks between firing cycles. As long as it’s a good barrel, shouldn’t have any issues.

I shoot suppressed during my local matches and the only issue I have is when they leave the dump barrels empty and my hot can burns a hole in it lol

 

[BigBC]

I think MidWay USA has a full JP side charger upper ready to ship. I would get the full upper and the roller trigger to throw separate in my existing lower. You'll save quite a bit off the full build. If you got $$ to burn than hell go full JP build. Nothing quite like getting a complete rifle that just rips right out of the box.

JP rifles aren't going to last like your BCM rifles will so think about consumables like barrels, buffer springs and what not. If you're going crazy and running the gun 4k rounds a month, well sure things wear out faster. Plan accordingly.

 

[Darqusoull13]

100% get the thermal dissipator. For those of us that do use them and have burned out our barrels at very high round counts there's no question the dissipator is worth every penny to extend the lifecycle of the barrel.

The aluminum carrier is nice if you build a run and gun or other style shoot where every ounce counts. I run a steel low mass carrier because I already run a 12lb setup in 18" barrels for 3 gun. Texas was kind of a long range, high rifle round count style of 3 gun.

 

[Jsp556]

Full weight carriers and properly ported 18” rg and 14.5 mid lengths with h buffers and brakes are smooth and reliable.

If you go 18” rg, AR15Performance ports his barrels on the light side and are more accurate than their price reflects.

14.5 mid gas barrels are smooth shooters as well.

LMT Mars lowers are as nice an anyone else’s and run about $279 stripped.

BCM mlok and keymod handguards are light.

It doesn’t take trick parts and skeletonized receivers to build a light flat shooting rifle.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

It doesn’t take trick parts and skeletonized receivers to build a light flat shooting rifle.

My grandpa always said a Buick Century would get someone from point A to B just fine. He was right, but I've never seen one on a race track...

 

[Jsp556]

My grandpa always said a Buick Century would get someone from point A to B just fine. He was right, but I've never seen one on a race track...

So why didn’t everyone recommend a proof research carbon wrapped barrel? If we’re saving every ounce and buy into thermal dissipation claims by manufacturers? After all, carbon fiber is common on the race track.

What’s the service life of a tricked out ultra-lightweight carrier? What advantage do you gain? At the cost of reliability? How would the carrier handle an over pressure load? Are you trying to increase the cyclic rate or reduce reciprocating mass? Aren’t those huge tank brakes supposed to tame the recoil?

1-6 razors seem fairly popular, they’re also one of the heaviest scopes in its class. I’m pretty sure Khales, Swarovski, Leupold, and Nightforce make optically equal or better and lighter 1-6 or 1-8 with on par reticles and daylight bright illumination.

Are skeletonized receivers as structurally strong, debris free, or safe as standard forged non-skeletonized?

I’ve built and ran race car engines. They operate on the ragged edge for short timeframes. They require a lot of tuning and maintenance and while failure was rare, when it happened it was catastrophic.

I’m not being argumentative. I’d really like to know the answers to the questions I asked. Maybe I spoke out of line. It wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Actually we mostly agree. I couldn't care less about the lightweight stuff for the purpose of getting the overall rifle weight down. Built an ultralight rifle and couldn't stand it.

Also can't bring myself to trust the skeletonized stuff in the sandy bays I shoot in.

Couldn't bring myself to pay Proof barrel money on something I'm gonna torch in less than 2 seasons.

Aluminum carriers are great, for a while..

But our opinions differ when it comes to full mass components somehow making a flat shooting rifle. The JP lo mass system is as tried and true as they get, and plenty of other light steel carriers, empty buffers, AGB and brake combos have proven themselves and once you shoot a well tuned rifle you'll never feel the same way about a full mass system again.

 

[Jsp556]

Fair enough.

 

[Darqusoull13]

So why didn’t everyone recommend a proof research carbon wrapped barrel? If we’re saving every ounce and buy into thermal dissipation claims by manufacturers? After all, carbon fiber is common on the race track.
Proof makes awesome barrels. Some folks going for trophies and those that love the aesthetic of carbon fiber run the CF. There's a difference in total mass and reciprocating mass though. I like a heavier rifle with a light carrier. More stable in positions with less weight moving during recoil.

What’s the service life of a tricked out ultra-lightweight carrier? What advantage do you gain? At the cost of reliability? How would the carrier handle an over pressure load? Are you trying to increase the cyclic rate or reduce reciprocating mass? Aren’t those huge tank brakes supposed to tame the recoil?
JP Low Mass carrier over 10,000 rounds, no appreciable wear. Will drop a new bolt when I wear out this barrel and run the same carrier. Lighter recoil is what you gain when used in combination with adjustable gas system. No decrease in reliability as mine has been 100%.

I've blown primers clean out and popped plenty clearing out some old 77's that were too toasty. Bolt and rifle cycled fine. No reason to load this hot but yes, my JP bolt was fine.

No you do not increase the carrier velocity because you also tune down the gas. Instead of over gassing a full mass carrier with a carbine port in 3 gun folks tend to run softer rifle length ports with a proper amount of gas.

Brakes are between 70-90% of the reduction in recoil. Buffer, carrier and adjustable gas cover the remaining reductions. Tank brakes are only legal in open, but hell yes they are effective.

1-6 razors seem fairly popular, they’re also one of the heaviest scopes in its class. I’m pretty sure Khales, Swarovski, Leupold, and Nightforce make optically equal or better and lighter 1-6 or 1-8 with on par reticles and daylight bright illumination.
Razors are popular because they are robust and very functional. Kahles and NF make superior options for 3 gun, for me, and I've used both. They are superior because of glass quality and reticle (preference) though. Nothing to do with weight as far as 3 gun in my opinion.

Are skeletonized receivers as structurally strong, debris free, or safe as standard forged non-skeletonized?
These are mostly snake oil as most skeletonized receivers are heavier than standard forged.

I’ve built and ran race car engines. They operate on the ragged edge for short timeframes. They require a lot of tuning and maintenance and while failure was rare, when it happened it was catastrophic.

I’m not being argumentative. I’d really like to know the answers to the questions I asked. Maybe I spoke out of line. It wouldn’t be the first time.

I do understand your point. I agree if you're running ragged edge you will crash but I'm not recommending running at the ragged edge either. A properly setup rifle can and does have a silly light recoil impulse while also being able to run extremely reliably.

 

[lawofsavage]

So why didn’t everyone recommend a proof research carbon wrapped barrel? If we’re saving every ounce and buy into thermal dissipation claims by manufacturers? After all, carbon fiber is common on the race track.

What’s the service life of a tricked out ultra-lightweight carrier? What advantage do you gain? At the cost of reliability? How would the carrier handle an over pressure load? Are you trying to increase the cyclic rate or reduce reciprocating mass? Aren’t those huge tank brakes supposed to tame the recoil?

1-6 razors seem fairly popular, they’re also one of the heaviest scopes in its class. I’m pretty sure Khales, Swarovski, Leupold, and Nightforce make optically equal or better and lighter 1-6 or 1-8 with on par reticles and daylight bright illumination.

Are skeletonized receivers as structurally strong, debris free, or safe as standard forged non-skeletonized?

I’ve built and ran race car engines. They operate on the ragged edge for short timeframes. They require a lot of tuning and maintenance and while failure was rare, when it happened it was catastrophic.

I’m not being argumentative. I’d really like to know the answers to the questions I asked. Maybe I spoke out of line. It wouldn’t be the first time.

If you’re into racing, you should definitely understand the concept of reciprocating mass vs non reciprocating mass as i would consider it loosely analogous to sprung vs unsprung mass in racing

 

[Tonsofguns]

for me it's all about reducing recoil to make this rifle shoot smooth, and to my knowledge, JP has the best overall system to do so.
I am currently running an 18 inch noveske barrel with a regular gas block, precision armament brake, and regular bcg, and it's kicking way more than it should.

 

[squib]

I was on the same path and ended up with Armalites 3 gun offerings

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[Billl223]

I bought a JP upper in 2005 with 18" medium weight barrel and lightweight bolt carrier. It came with the standard JP trigger. After 11,000 rounds groups started to open up and recently rebarreled it with a 20" JP barrel. No issues with the aluminum bolt carrier but I had a spare and added it to the "new" build. For 3-Gun I liked the JP trigger. I'm now trying PRS and went to a Giessele 2 stage trigger which i like for this application. JP salesman talked me into the thermal dissipator. Not necessary for PRS unless considering long practice sessions. Doubt it would be useful for 3-Gun.

 

[Jsp556]

If you’re into racing, you should definitely understand the concept of reciprocating mass vs non reciprocating mass as i would consider it loosely analogous to sprung vs unsprung mass in racing

Light reciprocating mass in a race engine is to reach higher rpms and reach them quicker.... are you increasing cyclic rate?

 

[lawofsavage]

Light reciprocating mass in a race engine is to reach higher rpms and reach them quicker.... are you increasing cyclic rate?

My understanding is that The purpose of lighter reciprocating mass in an ar is to tune the gas system so that less gas is used so in a properly tuned rifle I would say no but if all you do is swap standard weight parts for lightweight parts and not tune the gas system then it should increase the “cyclic rate” as I understand it

I can’t imagine that someone would pay you to tune an engine and you not understand that though

Not where I was going with that ... my point was more along the lines of in racing, generally some of the goals are have a car than accelerates faster and to have a car that handles better.

My point was more along the lines of for a given weight reduction, a reduction in that set amount of weight in unsprung mass will go further towards the goals of a car that accelerates faster and handles better than a reduction in the same amount of sprung weight.

Similarly, If one of the goals of building a “gamer” ar is less sight disturbance shot to shot, a reduction in reciprocating mass can have a greater impact assuming the gas system is also properly tuned than a reduction in the same amount of weight for example a lighter weight barrel, which actually would allow for greater sight disturbance due to a lighter rifle and increased perceived recoil.

As I understand it, the purpose of lightweight bcg’s and buffers is for the purpose of using a Lower gas setting with An adjustable gas block in a gamer gun to reduce sight disturbance

 

[Jsp556]

I got the point.

I understand reciprocating mass.
I understand unsprung weight.

Every AR I own is either a chrome lined duty type carbine or a recce/spr precision oriented rifle. My main priorities are reliability and accuracy. Non adjustable gas blocks, FA carriers, and buffers of appropriate weight to eliminate as much carrier bounce as possible are the components I use. ARs have a linear recoil impulse and 5.56 has minimal recoil any way. Long ass version of me saying gamer guns don’t interest me and I chimed in on a gamer gun thread. Out of my element so I’ll butt out. ✌?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I bought a JP upper in 2005 with 18" medium weight barrel and lightweight bolt carrier. It came with the standard JP trigger. After 11,000 rounds groups started to open up and recently rebarreled it with a 20" JP barrel. No issues with the aluminum bolt carrier but I had a spare and added it to the "new" build. For 3-Gun I liked the JP trigger. I'm now trying PRS and went to a Giessele 2 stage trigger which i like for this application. JP salesman talked me into the thermal dissipator. Not necessary for PRS unless considering long practice sessions. Doubt it would be useful for 3-Gun.

The upper from 2005 came with an aluminum carrier?

 

[srt-4_uk]

The other reason of a less reciprocating weight is removing 2 more recoil impulses. The weight hitting the rear of the stroke, and the weight slamming closed. Lock a FA carrier with a heavy buffer to the rear. Shoulder it and then close the bolt. Watch where the sights go. Now do it again with a light weight carrier and empty buffer. You will notice how much less it dips.

 

[Tonsofguns]

I got the point.

I understand reciprocating mass.
I understand unsprung weight.

Every AR I own is either a chrome lined duty type carbine or a recce/spr precision oriented rifle. My main priorities are reliability and accuracy. Non adjustable gas blocks, FA carriers, and buffers of appropriate weight to eliminate as much carrier bounce as possible are the components I use. ARs have a linear recoil impulse and 5.56 has minimal recoil any way. Long ass version of me saying gamer guns don’t interest me and I chimed in on a gamer gun thread. Out of my element so I’ll butt out. ✌?

haha, you must of missed the headline of the thread "3 gun build"