The 30-06 is a great cartridge, and extremely versatile. It isn't really popular because it isn't new, and people are finding that (all other things being equal) short, fat cartridges are often more accurate. I think the 30-06 with a 1-10 twist could make a really interesting precision rifle. You could even shoot heavier bullets in it..
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.30-06 as a precision rifle ?
- Thread starter SWThomas
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I call BS on one of your assertions----" ...short, fat cartridges are often more accurate..." The rest I agree with. I have yet to read a credible explanation as to why a round would be more accurate than any other. Efficiency is another story. It is entirely possible that getting a ratio of length to diameter that is lower might be more efficient, or flatter trajectory, but I would argue strenuously that all things being equal, in the hands of the same shooter, there would not be a round that is "inherently more accurate" than another round.....
As always, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. I support your right to disagree with me. That doesn't mean I will change my belief though.
Saying that something is "often" more accurate, is dramatically different than claiming it is "always" or "usually" more accurate. My belief in this is based on looking at the cartridges that most winning long distance bench rest shooters use. Most of their cartridges are the shorter, fatter ones, even though there are cartridges that will develop the same velocity when using the same bullet weight.
I believe that that long distance bench rest shooters would gladly sacrifice cartridge efficiency for more accuracy if they could find it with a longer, thinner cartridge. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Shooters tend to gravitate toward cartridges they believe will give them higher scores.
Saying that something is "often" more accurate, is dramatically different than claiming it is "always" or "usually" more accurate. My belief in this is based on looking at the cartridges that most winning long distance bench rest shooters use. Most of their cartridges are the shorter, fatter ones, even though there are cartridges that will develop the same velocity when using the same bullet weight.
I believe that that long distance bench rest shooters would gladly sacrifice cartridge efficiency for more accuracy if they could find it with a longer, thinner cartridge. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Shooters tend to gravitate toward cartridges they believe will give them higher scores.
Yes, sounds right. But statistically, there are certain cartridges that win more bling than others. There are numerous theories for this, one being short fat, long neck, etc.
If I am allowed a personal opinion, the surest is an accurate barrel. BB
If I am allowed a personal opinion, the surest is an accurate barrel. BB
it is not meaningful until you get to the splitting hairs of high level BR - but a long column of powder does not have as consistent of ignition / burn rate of the apparently ideal proportions of the 6BR - hence the dominance of this shape of chambering in short range BR
Fair enough. But with today's technology in powders, conceivably, one could overcome the consistent ignition/burn rate issue, and get as good results with a longer-thinner cartridge. Also, the 6BR is a smaller projectile, lighter weight, and flies faster, therefore, a flatter trajectory.
I argue that in a 30 caliber, given the same velocity, a shorter/fatter cartridge is not necessarily a more accurate cartridge.
I am talking Apples to Apples, straigh-up comparison.
I love the stories about poor 30-06 performance, keeps brass prices somewhat reasonable. I think the reason these hot rod cartridges "are usually more accurate" is simple. When is the last time you saw some surplus or "plinking" ammo in 30br, 6.5cm, etc. the ammo for the hot rod cartridges is inherently better than the "usual" ammo found for 30-06.
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I think you may be on to something, Grant.
I still maintain that, all things being equal, a 30.06 can be just as accurate as any other cartridge in the 30 cal line-up. By that, I mean, same velocity, same barrel length, same projectile, same quality hand-load, same shooter skill level.
I still maintain that, all things being equal, a 30.06 can be just as accurate as any other cartridge in the 30 cal line-up. By that, I mean, same velocity, same barrel length, same projectile, same quality hand-load, same shooter skill level.
I'll go back to the earlier comment that no one cartridge is any more accurate than another, but they may excel at certain tasks while another falls short.
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I think it is simply because you have a dedicated following in the cartridge of the month club.
Someone does good with something then everyone starts to use it till the next flavor of the moth comes along.
There is a lot of vanity and egos in competition shooting and word gets around that something is "the shit" then everyone starts to focus their efforts on that shit and because of the large effort, good results happen.
Everything is a tradeoff in shooting, 6's or 6.5's fly flat but really get pushed by the wind. 30 cals drop like rocks but buck the wind... Every cartridge has something good about it and that is usually at the expense of something else.
I don't buy into the hype or subscribe to the wildcat of the month club. I make a decision to work with a certain cartridge and I try to squeeze everything out of it that I can and when you put that much effort into something you are going to get good results.
30-06 is a choice. It is a choice that performs better than a .308 in the heavier weight bullets. It performs better at long range than a 308 because you have more energy potential to work with. You are not going to push 190 grain bullets at 3000 FPS in a 308, you can *just* do it with a 30-06 and that makes a 1500 yard shot (with 50-55 MOA in elevation) a good possibility because you are still flying supersonic at that distance.
I personally like to work with a 30-06 because it satisfies my sinister ego. I get snickerd at when I show up on the range with this bad ass looking gun and the snobs find out it is chambered in 30-06. Then I start shooting and embarrass the hell out of them and their 6.5 caliber something I never heard of that is supposed to re-write the book on long range shooting. What really makes it sweet is I am doing it with a cartridge that is nearly 110 years old and sometimes in brass that was made in the 1930's.
If you do your homework, you will find that the only cartridge that has won more "bling" in shooting competitions than a 30-06 is the .308. For 50+ years the 30-06 ruled the range. I would not be surprised if the 30-06 is in fact the king of the range since centerfire competitions began. I would imagine the records are a bit sketchy going all the way back to 1906 so I guess we will never know for sure what cartridge has won the most bling...
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"For 50+ years the 30-06 ruled the range. I would not be surprised if the 30-06 is in fact the king of the range since centerfire competitions began"
this is pretty poor support for your argument - would only be valid if technology / knowledge stood still
"I'll go back to the earlier comment that no one cartridge is any more accurate than another"
you can believe anything if you do not let facts stand in the way - a lot of the obsolete chamberings just could not keep up with the replacements - absolutely there are configurations that lend themselves better to accuracy, and most of the current popular choices are quite good , although not equal, but if your mind is made up .............
this is pretty poor support for your argument - would only be valid if technology / knowledge stood still
"I'll go back to the earlier comment that no one cartridge is any more accurate than another"
you can believe anything if you do not let facts stand in the way - a lot of the obsolete chamberings just could not keep up with the replacements - absolutely there are configurations that lend themselves better to accuracy, and most of the current popular choices are quite good , although not equal, but if your mind is made up .............
You're right George I should have said something more like of the current commercially available chamberings, I wasn't thinking of the obsolete ones.
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Well I am quite happy with my obsolete 30-06 and really enjoy delivering better results with it than most do with these highly technologically advanced chamberings being used today. Like I said, there is a certain sinister satisfaction out of out-shooting someone with some bizarro wildcat cartridge blabing how good of a shot he is while snickering at my 30-06.
A 1/4 MOA, 5 shot group out of a 30-06 at 300 yards has a way of producing silence among critics.
I do agree that there are some combinations that lend themselves to better accuracy, problem with that argument is, those advancements are beyond the capability of 99.9% of the shooters out there. There is far too much information you need to learn from brass choice to powder choice to produce the finished round... Not to mention reading environmental factors... and that is just the short list of accuracy affecting variables...
When ability is the limiting factor, I also agree with the statement no one cartridge is any more accurate than another since that is the case the majority of the time with the majority of shooters.
A 1/4 MOA, 5 shot group out of a 30-06 at 300 yards has a way of producing silence among critics.
I do agree that there are some combinations that lend themselves to better accuracy, problem with that argument is, those advancements are beyond the capability of 99.9% of the shooters out there. There is far too much information you need to learn from brass choice to powder choice to produce the finished round... Not to mention reading environmental factors... and that is just the short list of accuracy affecting variables...
When ability is the limiting factor, I also agree with the statement no one cartridge is any more accurate than another since that is the case the majority of the time with the majority of shooters.
Then can we share some specifics about reloading for the 30-06? I would like to learn more from proponents of the 30-06 of what works best for you in most any given theater. Your rifle platform of choice aside; your reloading technique and component selection etc. are what I would like to know more about. I have a borrowed recipe (from a CMP forum member) for the M1 Garand that met an accuracy spec of 4" at 100 yards... the Garand and the load shot better than I did, as I'm sure the load would have been more accurate in the hands of a capable shooter. Nevertheless, I am now researching how well the 30-06 can be for long range precision. Case selection and prep; smokeless powder choice(s); bullet; primer etc.
For me, I have no other experience to compare the .30-06 too; I have never shot the 6.5 Grendal, 6mmbr, 7mm, 243 etc. I sort of cut my teeth (so to speak) on the .30-06. To me, the .30-06 has an impressive resume, having played a huge part in winning two world wars. Competitions aside, no other round in history will touch those honors... Well, except for maybe the 7.62X54R, but that round is not a factor here. I want learn more about what the 30-06 round is capable of.
M1 Garand Load: (off topic)
Case: HXP Surplus
Primer: CCI #34
Bullet: Nosler CC 155gr
Powder: 47gr IMR-4895
COAL: 3.28"
As the owner of this recipe would say, it "shoots lights out..."
For me, I have no other experience to compare the .30-06 too; I have never shot the 6.5 Grendal, 6mmbr, 7mm, 243 etc. I sort of cut my teeth (so to speak) on the .30-06. To me, the .30-06 has an impressive resume, having played a huge part in winning two world wars. Competitions aside, no other round in history will touch those honors... Well, except for maybe the 7.62X54R, but that round is not a factor here. I want learn more about what the 30-06 round is capable of.
M1 Garand Load: (off topic)
Case: HXP Surplus
Primer: CCI #34
Bullet: Nosler CC 155gr
Powder: 47gr IMR-4895
COAL: 3.28"
As the owner of this recipe would say, it "shoots lights out..."
That's what I'm wondering. I like the ballistics, but it seems like it would beat on you after awhile.
Rather than turn this into another load thread, there is a thread or two on the Hide that is dedicated to load work-ups. Here is a link to the oldest http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading-depot/15880-loads-30-06-a.html
If you can read between the HTML tags in the older posts there is some good info in there. This is one of the oldest surviving threads on the Hide when the forum software was not what it is today so that is why you see all the HTML in the posts.
That may be good for a Garand but not that great in a precision built 30-06.
Here is just a sample recipe of one of my 30-06 loads and by no means would this load produce the same results it does for me in all rifles. I am simply posting it to show you the difference between a precision recipe and a non precision one:
1x fire-formed Lapua Brass trimed to 2.48 and weight sorted to 194 to 194.5 grains
Neck turn the case to .009" of wall thickness and then neck size .002 under (.306 inside neck diameter)
Primer pocket squared and flash hole opened up .002 and deburred both sides
190 Grain Berger VLD with the meplat uniformed
57.2 grains of H4350
Federal 210 Match primer
COAL .005 off the lands
That load produced this 10 shot group at 100 yards. I proof all my final work ups with 10 consecutive rounds to see the effects heat will have as the barrel warms up. Temp sensitive powders like RL22 will show an increase in the vertical when the chamber is hot. H4350, not so much.
Measured from center of round to center of round, this group was .38" and shot from that rifle I shared a pic of at the top of this page.
A friend of mine had a purpose built 30-06 built from the ground up. He could have picked any cartridge he wanted, but he went with a 30-06 having a 24 inch Kreiger barrel with a 1-10 twist. I agree with the comments that the most important part of any rifle is quality of the barrel and build. IF all that is done properly, I think the 30-06 is superior to the 308 for long range work. The ability of the 30-06 to launch 175-190 grain bullets at higher velocities makes it able keep those bullets from going transonic several hundred yards further than the 308 can. He finds it pretty easy to print half inch groups from bi-pod and rear bags, and even with a short fat cartridge, I can't do much better than that.
Even though I believe the bench rest crowd has great success with the short fat cartridges, with the exception of the 6.5 Grendel, I have remained with 308 and 300 Win mag. But then I'm not a bench rest shooter.
Even though I believe the bench rest crowd has great success with the short fat cartridges, with the exception of the 6.5 Grendel, I have remained with 308 and 300 Win mag. But then I'm not a bench rest shooter.
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