30 Nosler vs 30 Sherman Magnum

[Sterlingb06]

So not trying to pick fights or start wars, but I am trying to objectively understand what the differences are. If I have my dimensions correct (if not correct me please), everything is so close, that you can almost fire one round in the other's chamber (I am not condoning this, its a bad idea, but you get the point).

A little backstory, I was looking for my next big 30 magnum and came across the 30 Sherman magnum. Seeing at it was a AI version of a 300 PRC, for which factory 300 PRC ammo shoots great in its chamber, I started my journey of reading all the different forums on it. I saw that its H20 capacity was similar to 30 nosler as well as MV with similar brass/bullets/barrel lengths, so I started looking for the differences to see which one made more since for me. Note: I will have a barrel spun up and I reload, so no need to bring in the factory rifle crowd.

I found the SAAMI specs drawing of the 30 Nosler on Quickload as well as the 30 Sherman Magnum's drawing on Gordon's Reloading Tool (neither program one had the other's cartridge so couldn't do a proper comparison of loads in the programs). Here are the images.

First of all, does anyone with experience not agree with these dimensions? If so, no need to read the next paragraph...

If not, what I found was they both have a magnum bases (.534"). 30 Nos is slightly rebated with a base diameter of .550" and 30 SM stays at 0.534". The Nos has a little more taper but due to the wider base and shorter case/shoulder junction, the Nos has about the same case diameter at the shoulder - 0.004" larger ( 0.528" vs 0.524"). The case/shoulder junction occurs at 2.115" for the Nos and 2.164" for the SM (so 0.050" difference) but with the 35 degrees (Nos) vs the 40 degrees (SM), the neck shoulder junction is closer to each other at at 2.246" vs 2.272" (Nos vs SM), a 0.026" difference. The SM also has a 0.024" longer neck so the SM has a case length that is ~ 0.050" longer. Throw all this into the regonculator and they have the same case capacity, and for the same bullet they are within 0.050" in COAL (for example, a properly seated 215 Hybrid is just above 3.600" for Nosler - just choose jump to get your needed freebore).

I know the standard 30 SM reamers have a nominal freebore setup for the heavier bullets so a 215 Hybrid will be higher in the neck and COAL will be up around 3.700+", but you can get the Nosler freebore'ed to do the same. I am just now figuring out that all of these cartridges are the same if you get to choose your freebore? Am I overlooking something or not giving something enough credit/weight?

So my question to all - does everybody agree that if I hand you two rifles (one chambered in each), that you could not load one better than the other, know which one you were firing if given to you blind, or even giving you one round of each could you tell me which is which (no peeking at the headstamp)?

Last request - there has to be at least 1 hide member that has both of these. Can you please post a picture of the two side by side and do not label them? I have seen 300 PRC vs 30 SM and 300 PRC vs 30 Nos but not 30 SM vs 30 Nos. I would like to see if there is truly a discernable difference.

PS: I have read most of the posts on 30 SM, not looking for quip remarks, but rather looking to have an objective conversation.

 

[Steel head]

Splitting hairs
Easy way to make the decision is brass quality, brass availability and possibly freebore but a short freebore is easily remedied.

 

[b6graham]

non rebated. usable freebore from the start. 30SM wins for me.

 

[Supersubes]

Splitting hairs
Easy way to make the decision is brass quality, brass availability and possibly freebore but a short freebore is easily remedied.

Agree, lapua brass for the win. Hell, all three of them are splitting hairs from a case design perspective. I’ll stick with the PRC.

 

[Sterlingb06]

Thanks guys. I guess the rebated rim is a factor to some (mag feeding, might have to machine action rails, etc.). Anyone have real world experience with noslers out of stock actions - problematic or no?

And I didn't add the mix the 30-28 nosler. It has the same .550" base diameter, taper and 35 degree shoulder as the regular 30 nosler but with the shoulder a little more forward like the 30 SM/300 PRC, it adds another few grains of H2O capacity.

It seems like its the largest case that is designed for heavy bullets and with regular mag capacity limit of 3.715". But again, all this for 2-4ish grains of powder room.

I would still like to see a pic if someone has these rounds.

And to the point on brass - adg makes brass for PRC and nosler so whenever it is in stock, this should be moot.

 

[Schw15]

My buddy had a 30 sherman shot it just enough to fireform brass. I ended up with it and actually sold it on a whim without even putting the barrel on. The guy who bought it we talk and he seems to really like it 2930ish I think 250 a-tip rl33 28 inch bartlein barrel. I got the itch for a new cal and just pulled the trigger on a 30 nosler it will be throated to my dummy rounds. Looking at the two the biggest selling point for me was I didn't have to blow out any brass like the 30 sherman and the 30 nosler was cheaper overall to get everything. I can say I fell in love with the case design but it will be 3 months or more easily til I get my barrel. Now I had a 28 nosler a few years ago for hunting on a tenacity with cip mags and had no issues with feeding.

 

[Sterlingb06]

Yeah I just chalk up the fire forming of 100 rounds to watching the barrel speed up and find some good lower velocity nodes, finding a decent seating depth then stretching it's legs for indications on it's general accuracy.

Hate to "waste" barrel life and components but should be able to hit the ground running on the higher nodes with a decent amount of info by then.

Any guesses in barrel life of SM vs nosler? Also, who did he get to chamber the bartlein?

 

[Schw15]

It was straight jacket who did the barrel. Yes I agree I just had so many ackleys before I got tired of messing with that part. As far as barrel life I don't have any idea sherman has said 1800 in the past. I'm guessing 1300 to 1500 for my 30 nosler but basing it off of 300 win mag and the extra powder ect. But that is no science behind that guess haha

 

[Steel head]

Yeah I just chalk up the fire forming of 100 rounds to watching the barrel speed up and find some good lower velocity nodes, finding a decent seating depth then stretching it's legs for indications on it's general accuracy.

Hate to "waste" barrel life and components but should be able to hit the ground running on the higher nodes with a decent amount of info by then.

Any guesses in barrel life of SM vs nosler? Also, who did he get to chamber the bartlein?

I always enjoy shooting the fire form loads and barrel speed up shots smacking steel at distance.

They always shoot pretty good and you get a good idea of how it’s speeding up.

 

[TreyMeTrey]

Its probably late to comment but i will anyway.I started out with the 300 PRC shooting in ELR King of 1 Mile & King Of 2 Mile Matches.I love it. I shoot in Light Gun Class.I just started in it.Only5 Matches total. However I shot the 300 PRC at 1000 yards quite a bit and a 6.5 PRC & 7 SAUM.
Ok After shooting with my partner in ELR that shoots a e33XC and 30 Sherman Mag I decided to turn my newcustom 300 PRC into a 30 Sherman because my friend was getting 150+ FPS more with his 30 SM than me with my 300 PRC..My 300 PRC is running a Hornady 250gr A-Tip at 2805 fps.. So with a 30 Sherman Idget abot 2950 with a Hornady 250gr A-Tip as my friend. And I didnt need 2 300 PRC's at same time. With more powder I can get more speed out of my 300 PRC if I hammer on it at 79.5 tom80.0grs of H1000 vs my 78.5 grains of H1000..I'd like it to last a little while....LOL
My 30 SM also has a 29.5 inch Bartlein Left Hand Gain Twist barrel. My other 300 PRC is a Savage 110 Elite 30 inch barrel..I absolutely love it.I never thought I'd like a Savage..But I do.
I just built a 375 Cheytac for Heavy Class with a Stiller Tac Driver action, a Mcrees chassis,K&P 35inch barrel,Trigger Tech Diamond trigger ..Its shooting at 3010 fps with a 427gr Cutting Edge bullet currently...Its speeding up now.It only has 46 Rounds down the tube.It should level out about 150 rounds Id say. Ive never had or shot a 375 Chetac prior to this one so its all new to me..I sure dont understand why there isnt 375 Cheytac Load data in these books.Its not like its a brand new round..And our Military now has a contract to use it.Thats one draw back on brass being so hard to get now.
Also Im sure considering a 33XC build for light Class.. This round Is Top Dog in the Light Class Division..I justbuilt several rifles and Im running out of room.LOL. I was lookingb at the Savage 112 action in 338 LM fora donor rifle for the 33XC. Ican get one for about $950. or a Stiller for $1350. I just thought Id play with the Savage 112 338 LM a bit before I rebarrel it.
The 300 Normma Mag as is the 30 Nosler & is also a good choice in a 30 Cal for ELR in my opinion.

 

[CA48]

I have a 30SM, it pushes 215s 2950 in a proof cf 20” barrel with n570. I know of 2 other 20” 30 noslers pushing ~2975 with 215s and n570. The 300prc 225 eld m factory ammo shot terrible in my gun. I even tuned the seating depth on the factory 225s and they still shot bad. The 212 eld x factory ammo shot ok as is, but I reload so it doesn’t really matter to me. I like the 30SM and have no complaints but when I rebarrel I may just go with the 30nosler. 30 Nosler is the easy button if you want a little more velocity than the PRC and adg brass is good. With the 30SM you have adg and lapua but I have not tryed lapua because Rich set up the reamer and dies around adg brass.

As requested by the op here is a non labeled pic, although it’s easy to tell. 30-28 Nosler, 30 Nosler, 30SM, 300PRC with 215s

 

[TreyMeTrey]

Thank you.
I don't shoot anything but 250gr A Tips
They are a high BC and I've got a great hook up on them real cheap.
I have considered the Nosler too.It is another faster choice.Thank you.
I have the new 30 Sherman Mag reamer and dies so it's set.
Also I decided this morning to build a 33XC .lol Always need an extra toy..lol
After shoting in the last 5 of 6 ELR King of 1 Mile and King of 2 Mile matches I've seen in the Light Gun division that the Top Dog is a 33XC h ands down.So I ordered another Stiller Action to build it on.Ive got 4 Stiller Actions and have had good luck with them from my Stiller Scout in 6mm ARC To my Stiller Tac Driver in 375 Cheytac .,and Stiller Predator
Thank you for your reply.

 

[4O6shootist]

30SM is the 300prc with 90k Richard S max psi rating. You gain what 2-3 grain powder on a case that already holds 93gr water capacity. 3% powder cap equates into 1% velocity gain at SAME pressure. ADG fireformed 30 nosler holds 101gr water, so it has 6gr capacity edge over 30SM. Equal pressure, proper freebore with same bullet/powder: 300prc<30SM<30 Nosler.

 

[Luckyshot]

I have a 30SM, it pushes 215s 2950 in a proof cf 20” barrel with n570. I know of 2 other 20” 30 noslers pushing ~2975 with 215s and n570. The 300prc 225 eld m factory ammo shot terrible in my gun. I even tuned the seating depth on the factory 225s and they still shot bad. The 212 eld x factory ammo shot ok as is, but I reload so it doesn’t really matter to me. I like the 30SM and have no complaints but when I rebarrel I may just go with the 30nosler. 30 Nosler is the easy button if you want a little more velocity than the PRC and adg brass is good. With the 30SM you have adg and lapua but I have not tryed lapua because Rich set up the reamer and dies around adg brass.

As requested by the op here is a non labeled pic, although it’s easy to tell. 30-28 Nosler, 30 Nosler, 30SM, 300PRC with 215s

View attachment 7967597

If those are max loads, where do you guys see your accuracy nodes?
If not max loads, what speeds do you see pressure?
How does H1000 compare to N570 velocitywise?
Assuming you shoot suppressed, what can did you go with?

Asking because I've been researching 20" .30cals for my next build, and your data is pretty enticing

 

[CA48]

2950fps is where I saw accuracy.

I will do some explaining though before ppl start coming in bitching and crying that this is another example of running a Sherman at 90k psi.

I see a lot of hate for the Sherman’s and I get it. Most of the time the max velocities posted for Sherman’s are higher psi loads.

I wouldn’t expect to build a 20” 30 Sherman Mag and run 215s where I am. 2850-2900fps with n570 is more realistic. With n570 I start to see a faint ej mark at 86gr 3000 fps and my load at 2950fps is with 84.9gr and is a warm load no doubt. I have over 600 rounds on the barrel and have run 5 shot strings with this load in 105* summer temps and never experienced any typical pressure signs, but it is pretty warm like I mentioned. This is with adg brass, n570, 215match primers and a proof CF barrel. I have 6 firings on 100 pieces of brass now and at 5 I started to get light clickers on brass not because I have a die issue, simply because it’s a pretty warm load. I realize with brass like alpha, adg, peterson, and lapua you will be at higher pressures before you see typical pressure signs. I wanted to run these at 2850-2900 but after testing they shot best at 2950 with 84.9gr. Just for a test I loaded 1 piece of adg brass at 85.5gr and shot and reloaded it 8 times but could have gone more. After resizing that piece the last time the base above the extractor groove measured .5326” so that was obviously hot but I was just pushing a piece of adg brass and it shows to be pretty tough stuff. My current load of 84.9 has the base measuring .5315”
If I were running a custom action I would probably continue running this load because it shoots so well. But I’m running a Rem 700 action so about a week ago I decided to drop down and test around 83.4-84gr at 2870-2900 fps just to give me a little more margin for error in case water or dirt get in the barrel as this is a hunting rifle. As I experienced in earlier testing it will shoot some great groups at slower velocities but they are not as consistent. So now I have ordered some more bushings to experiment with different neck tensions and see if can find a consistent accurate load around 2850-2900fps with the 215s.
The others 3 30noslers I have seen on another forum with 20” barrels run 215s at 2950-2970fps at the top end with retumbo and n570, then at 2800fps with h1000. Which correlates since formed adg 30nos brass is 101gr H2O, 97.4gr for the 30SM, and 95gr for the 300PRC.

The 30nos has a 3.6gr h20 cap. advantage ove the 30SM in formed adg brass.
Like others have said all things equal out of the 3 the 30nos will produce the highest velocity since it has the most case capacity.

With h1000 it will run about 100fps slower than n570.
RL26 and Ramshot LRT will run the same speeds as N570 but LRT has shown to be pretty Temp sensitive with the small amount of testing I did with it.

I saw an ejector mark with imr7977 at 2923fps with the 208 eld-m’s. It runs similar velocities to h1000. So you could run them around 2800fps in my gun.

I’m running a tb ultra 5 but waiting on a 338 ultra. Although Il probably hunt with the ultra 5 because it’s so light and short.

 

[4O6shootist]

2950fps is where I saw accuracy.

View attachment 7978222

I will do some explaining though before ppl start coming in bitching and crying that this is another example of running a Sherman at 90k psi.

I see a lot of hate for the Sherman’s and I get it. Most of the time the max velocities posted for Sherman’s are higher psi loads.

I wouldn’t expect to build a 20” 30 Sherman Mag and run 215s where I am. 2850-2900fps with n570 is more realistic. With n570 I start to see a faint ej mark at 86gr 3000 fps and my load at 2950fps is with 84.9gr and is a warm load no doubt. I have over 600 rounds on the barrel and have run 5 shot strings with this load in 105* summer temps and never experienced any typical pressure signs, but it is pretty warm like I mentioned. This is with adg brass, n570, 215match primers and a proof CF barrel. I have 6 firings on 100 pieces of brass now and at 5 I started to get light clickers on brass not because I have a die issue, simply because it’s a pretty warm load. I realize with brass like alpha, adg, peterson, and lapua you will be at higher pressures before you see typical pressure signs. I wanted to run these at 2850-2900 but after testing they shot best at 2950 with 84.9gr. Just for a test I loaded 1 piece of adg brass at 85.5gr and shot and reloaded it 8 times but could have gone more. After resizing that piece the last time the base above the extractor groove measured .5326” so that was obviously hot but I was just pushing a piece of adg brass and it shows to be pretty tough stuff. My current load of 84.9 has the base measuring .532
If I were running a custom action I would probably continue running this load because it shoots so well. But I’m running a Rem 700 action so about a week ago I decided to drop down and test around 83.4-84gr at 2870-2900 fps just to give me a little more margin for error in case water or dirt get in the barrel as this is a hunting rifle. As I experienced in earlier testing it will shoot some great groups at slower velocities but they are not as consistent. So now I have ordered some more bushings to experiment with different neck tensions and see if can find a consistent accurate load around 2850-2900fps with the 215s.
The others 3 30noslers I have seen on another forum with 20” barrels run 215s at 2950-2970fps at the top end with retumbo and n570, then at 2800fps with h1000. Which correlates since formed adg 30nos brass is 101gr H2O, 97.4gr for the 30SM, and 95gr for the 300PRC.

The 30nos has a 3.6gr h20 cap. advantage ove the 30SM in formed adg brass.
Like others have said all things equal out of the 3 the 30nos will produce the highest velocity since it has the most case capacity.

With h1000 it will run about 100fps slower than n570.
RL26 and Ramshot LRT will run the same speeds as N570 but LRT has shown to be pretty Temp sensitive with the small amount of testing I did with it.

I saw an ejector mark with imr7977 at 2923fps with the 208 eld-m’s. It runs similar velocities to h1000. So you could run them around 2800fps in my gun.

I’m running a tb ultra 5 but waiting on a 338 ultra. Although Il probably hunt with the ultra 5 because it’s so light and short.

All 3 my Shermans, 25sst, 65max, 7max all seemed to shoot the best just under pressure signs. I shot out the 65max pretty quickly running 156s at 3100 w/ N570. The 7max I sold. And the 25sst has low round count, i had pressure issues and have found its related to the action, and not the barrel/chamber.

 

[CA48]

I have rifles that don’t shoot best right at pressure as well. My 25sst has over 1300 rounds on it now but I have another barrel for it just need to send it off. I ran it with mild load of h1000 with 131 ACE’s at 3170fps in a 26” and took it easy keeping shot strings low. It didn’t shoot as well on the top end. On the other hand my 6.5SS ran at 3250fps with 140 bergers in a 26” proof CF barrel with h-1000. It was a hot load and only got 3-4 firings with Norma brass but shot 3-5” groups at my 1110 yard plate and 1.5-2.5” groups at my 755 plate and just didn’t shoot it’s best any slower so I kept rolling at 3250. It’s one of the only rifles I could ever consistently make cold bore shots on my 7” plate at 1500 yards in good conditions. Well maybe except for the 338 Allen Mag, but the 6.5SS was a 9 lb rifle scoped.

It seems every barrel is different, some may shoot well right on the edge of pressure and some in the lower node, then some are just slow barrels. I have loaded for a friends 25sst and it shot great at 3270fps with rl26 in a 26” bartlien with the 131s. With rl26 I don’t even see a faint ej mark until 3350 with rl26 or 3385 with n570 out of 26” barrels and adg brass.

That always sucks having new build with issues right from the start. I’ve been there.