300 AAC powder help

[BigRso]

Hello Everyone,

I am just finishing my 16" 1:8 twist carbine in 300 blackout build, and will be loading mostly 147gr pulled, hornady 150gr fmj and some cast

155 lee mold sized to 309 and gas checked. I will only be running supersonic loads out this rig.

My question is which powder to go with either h110 or lil gun any loads which function with good accuracy would be greatly appreciated

if you shared. Or if you can just tell me which is the better powder for me to work with out of the two. Thanks in advance.

Please don't flame me if this is a common question I saw a lot of loads but would like a more precise answer since I will be only using

those specific bullets.

Be well,
Mike

 

[waveslayer]

I have only used H110 powder because of all the positive feedback about using it over Lil' gun

 

[RHunter]

aa 1680 is another good one, I prefer Lil'gun over h110 due to a lower chamber pressure, this allows me to load them hot and get away with it. I wont publish my load because it is better for you to work one up rather than take my info and blow yourself up. I will say this, my load is 98% of case capacity and I can drive tacks with this bullet at 100 yards.....

Personally I think you are using the wrong bullets for a blackout, 147 is a bit too heavy for a good supersonic round. 147's are for .308's, not blackouts. The 125 Sierra matchking (2121) for 300 Blackout is the best, gives you good OAL and aligns perfectly in the mag. Tears the hell out of hogs too.

Just an FYI, you are going to miss out on the best part of a blackout- SUBSONIC! With my can and 220 grain SMK... all you hear is a puff while you send a brick down range. It's amazing how nasty a 220 grain bullet is at 1000 fps.

 

[Assault116]

While I'm new here, I'd like to throw out another one, Accurate 5744 has given me some great results for supers. You can get the load data from Western Powders' (AA and Ramshot) website. I've found good accuracy and the highest velocities with it in the heavier supersonic loads. I'm pushing 125 OTM's at 2300 without issues, but if I push it much hotter I get signs of pressure and they are very accurate as well out to 200 or so.

I've had good luck with all the powders listed here for different purposes. I use 1680 for subs as it's the best performing I've found for reliable cycling with sub-sonic loads. I use lil'gun for my light supers (110's) as well as H110 but it's kinda dirty.

 

[leadbullet]

17 to 17.5 gr of lil'gun with the 147FMJ's, I get around 1 MOA all the way to 600yds with that recipe out of an AR, 16 incher. 18.5 with the 125 gr but expensive and not much more accurate than the 147's. H110 does not cycle in my rifle so I can't give you any recommandation and AA1680 is better left for subsonc loads.
cheers, hope this helps and enjoy your blackout.

 

[RHunter]

17 to 17.5 gr of lil'gun with the 147FMJ's, I get around 1 MOA all the way to 600yds

600 Yards? 1 MOA? In a 300 Blackout? Are you kidding me?? I am sorry but I am crying BS on that statement. The 147 bullet with your load goes subsonic at 250 yards so getting 1 MOA at 600 is NOT going to happen.

Sorry friend but you are full of it.

 

[waveslayer]

I will have to second that motion! Maybe in an AR10 shooting a 308! Now way a 300 blackout will shoot an MOA at 600... H110 cycles fine. RHunter what COL are you using with 125's?

 

[r50140]

H110 for supersonic and AA1680 for subsonic. I shoot mostly subsonic out of a 10.5" SBR and supersonic out of a 16" barrel.

 

[RHunter]

AA 1860 works good for 125 grain supersonic bullets but some rifles may not like the lower pressure it runs at. But yes, it does really shine in the subsonics.

Waveslayer, I sent this to you in a PM but I think others may benefit from it, especially if they are new to loading 300BK

OAL is a tricky one with a blackout because if you are loading them in a AR mag, you have to take the ogive of the bullet into consideration so the feed rail in the mag is not pushing the stored round out of alignment. Remember, .223 mags were designed for a .223 casing, not a blackout round.

Another thing you have to be careful with is the pressure, you can have a load for a particular weight bullet but if you set that bullet too deep in the casing to get it to work well with the magazine then you will increase the chamber pressure and create an unsafe condition. (40 S&W is notorious for blowing up guns because of this)

This is a big reason I do not like to use bullets that were designed for a specific case such as a .308 Win, 30-06, or a 30-30. You would not use a 50 caliber pistol bullet in a 50BMG, same goes with a blackout. Even though the bullet diameter is the same does not make it suitable for cross platform use. Granted there are exceptions but those exceptions are based on the geometry of the bullet, not its diameter alone.

So in my blackout I use 2 measurements, OAL measured with calipers to make sure it fits in the mag, and the length to the ogive. Some bullets fit when all things are considered, some don't. When I am developing a new load with an odd-ball bullet I have a mag on my reloading table and I will load a couple rounds and put them in the mag to see how they fit and stack. If they don't sit in the mag correctly you are asking for trouble.

Consider this, you have a round that fits in the mag but is out of alignment, that round, when chambered, misses the feed ramps in the barrel, the tip hits an obstruction and the bullet gets pushed into the case 1/4 of an inch but ultimately finds its way into the chamber, you fire that round and the gun blows up... Your charge was perfect, your OAL was correct because it fit in the mag, why did it go BOOM? Because pushing the round deeper in the case created another 15,000 PSI in chamber pressure and the gun couldn't handle that increase in PSI.

These are some of the problems you encounter when you take a platform that was designed for a specific round and try to make it work with something different, you can be successful making a different round work in a platform it was not designed for but there are certain parameters you have to stay within in order for it all to come together and work correctly..

 

[SABuzzard]

I've had much better luck with H110 over lil gun. I'm shooting a 10" SBR and most of my load development has been with 125 grain bullets (Nosler, Sierra & Hornady). H110 produced higher and more consistent velocities in my rifle with no pressure signs. I've heard of other others having better luck with lil gun. You'll probably have to work up loads for each to find out what your rifle/bullet combo likes.

 

[BigRso]

I greatly appreciate all the feedback as far as my choice of bullets, components are not easy nor cost effective to come by at this point. I sold a ptr91 and have a few thousand of these heads laying around and i wont use them in my bolt gun. My blackout was built for CGB use only a suppressor is not in my future so a target/practice round that will be accurate out to 300yds at the most is all I am after. I would also have to agree with you guys that a blackout shooting moa at 600 yards is not realistic granted it has been shot to a 1000 yards using 110gr heads but you can bet your balls it was not a task for the faint of heart to say the least.. I also saw some where that 296 is the same as h110 is this correct?

Thanks and be well,
Mike

 

[RHunter]

If they are pulled heads with any marks on them I am sure you know they need to be re-sized but more to my point, bullets that are knife pulled really suck in the accuracy department. They are out of balance and simply do not fly straight. Not a big deal for a 50 yard shot but 300??????

Accurately shooting a blackout at 300 yards is a stretch for a 147 grain simply because it only will stay supersonic to about 250 yards. After that, God only knows where it is going to go. You do understand what happens when a supersonic round goes transonic and then subsonic?? It wobbles and goes off in some other direction 99% of the time.

When the velocity of a rifle bullet fired at supersonic muzzle velocity approaches the speed of sound it enters the transonic region (about Mach 1.2–0.8). In the transonic region, the center of pressure (CP) of most bullets shifts forward as the bullet decelerates. That CP shift affects the (dynamic) stability of the bullet. If the bullet is not well stabilized, it can not remain pointing forward through the transonic region (the bullets starts to exhibit an unwanted precession or coning motion that, if not damped out, can eventually end in uncontrollable tumbling along the length axis). However, even if the bullet has sufficient stability (static and dynamic) to be able to fly through the transonic region and stays pointing forward, it is still affected. The erratic and sudden CP shift and (temporary) decrease of dynamic stability can cause significant dispersion (and hence significant accuracy decay), even if the bullet's flight becomes well behaved again when it enters the subsonic region. This makes accurately predicting the ballistic behavior of bullets in the transonic region very difficult. Further the ambient air density has a significant effect on dynamic stability during transonic transition. Though the ambient air density is a variable environmental factor, adverse transonic transition effects can be negated better by bullets traveling through less dense air, than when traveling through denser air. Because of this, marksmen normally restrict themselves to engaging targets within the supersonic range of the bullet used.

I'd like to see some video of a bullet fired from a blackout going 1000 yards, even at 110 grains, the bullet goes sub sonic between 350 and 400 yards. At a MV of 2,300 fps a 110 Grain bullet in a blackout has about 115 feet of drop at 1000 yards depending on its BC and will be traveling somewhere around 650 FPS when it crosses that line. Even with a MV of 3000 FPS a 110 grain bullet goes subsonic at 500 yards. At 4000 fps it is only supersonic to 650 yards.

1000 yards with a Blackout is Impossible. If ever there was a shot at 1000 yards from a blackout skill had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[BigRso]

RHunter you seem well educated but you took my thread some where else. My question was simple and all the bullet BC and blah blah blah everyone here knows. Its simple I am trying to work with what I have sir either way impossible its not because it was done 1000 yard shot with the 300 Blackout: A Tribute to John Noveske | The Bang Switch and it was done at 800 yards and skill had everything to do with it.......Travis Haley on the 300 AAC Blackout | The Truth About Guns, but again thank you for your time and input.

Be well,
Mike

 

[BigRso]

got raped for h110 at my local shop

Be well,
Mike

 

[rjacobs]

For the 147g/150g stuff I like Lil Gun over H110. H110 showed major pressure signs WAY before it should have in my gun. Lil Gun ran great with no pressure signs up to where I was aiming for(1900-1950FPS).

A friend of mine explained why H110 possibly showed pressure signs since it likes to have very high case fill percentages otherwise it can do some wacky stuff. he has seen light loads of H110 blow up revolvers before and they figured out it was because of low case volume. he explained it in a little more detail than that.

Lil Gun doesnt seem to have the issues with needing high case volume fill.

I still load H110 for 110g and 125g stuff, but for the mid weights I stick with Lil Gun.

 

[BigRso]

For the 147g/150g stuff I like Lil Gun over H110. H110 showed major pressure signs WAY before it should have in my gun. Lil Gun ran great with no pressure signs up to where I was aiming for(1900-1950FPS).

A friend of mine explained why H110 possibly showed pressure signs since it likes to have very high case fill percentages otherwise it can do some wacky stuff. he has seen light loads of H110 blow up revolvers before and they figured out it was because of low case volume. he explained it in a little more detail than that.

Lil Gun doesnt seem to have the issues with needing high case volume fill.

I still load H110 for 110g and 125g stuff, but for the mid weights I stick with Lil Gun.

Thank you very much exactly what I wanted to know and was looking for, did you notice any of the problems some describe with lil gun being inconsistent?

Be well,
Mike

 

[rjacobs]

Thank you very much exactly what I wanted to know and was looking for, did you notice any of the problems some describe with lil gun being inconsistent?

Be well,
Mike

I dont think I did or have, but to be honest I settled on either 16g or 16.5(I cant remember and I cant find my target of 16-16.4g and I am not near my reloading data book) of Lil Gun behind the M80 pulls(and the 150g FMJ new stuff) and shot maybe 100 more to confirm the load and havent done much with it since since I have been shooting mostly subsonics ever since. But the load I settled on will repeatedly do what the 16.5g load in the picture down below shows on iron sights(which aint that impressive, but for a cheap 150g FMJ on iron sights aint bad).

I have read(and responded to) the most recent thread over on 300BLKTalk that delves into "inconsistency with Lil Gun" and that guys gun is suspect IMO. It was not put together correctly as admitted to by the OP(only had 20ft lbs of torque on the barrel nut) and he never really goes into any detail on what the gun is, except at the end he says he is going to contact Double Star. TO ME, it sounds like a gun issue(like most 300BLK issue's IMO).

When people have issues with 300BLK I always like to find out what parts their gun has on it and who built it. I would say a majority of the time the gun is suspect or has cheap ass parts on it. People on the 300BLKTalk forum always rip on AAC and Noveske because their prices are "to high" according to the FUD's over there, but the simple truth is that AAC and Noveske guns runs. You dont read much about them having issues. Now the cheap stuff, issues all over the place. I run an AAC factory 9" upper on a built by me SBR lower and it runs and runs and runs(I think I put almost 3k rounds through it between cleanings). I also havent seen all of these negative accuracy findings that all these guys seem to miraculously have and cant solve while shooting through their $99 barrel with a UTG "free float" hand guard on it with the completely wrong buffer and spring setup.

Here is my target while doing load workup with 150g Hornady FMJ's and LilGun. This was shot iron sights(magpul MBUS) off a front sandbag at 50 yards. I was simply looking for pressure signs and groups were a secondary concern.

 

[RHunter]

RHunter you seem well educated but you took my thread some where else. My question was simple and all the bullet BC and blah blah blah everyone here knows. Its simple I am trying to work with what I have sir either way impossible its not because it was done 1000 yard shot with the 300 Blackout: A Tribute to John Noveske | The Bang Switch and it was done at 800 yards and skill had everything to do with it.......Travis Haley on the 300 AAC Blackout | The Truth About Guns, but again thank you for your time and input.

Yep have a look at Travis Hartley's video at about 7:30 into it and he is shooting a suppressed SBR 300 BLK with a red dot sight 750 yards. Yep sure I really believe that.

I also find it curious when a writer promoting a manufacturer makes these claims as Timothy Yan did. Seems like the talking points were "lets promote this as a cartridge capable of LR so the uninformed shooter flocks to the store and buys one"

So lets add some reality to this discussion, which is what I intended to do for you in the first place. TO HELP YOU understand the 300 cartridge a bit better.

There are some awesome shooters in the hide that shoot 300 win mag a 1000 yards and they will tell you what a challenge it is to pull that off reliably. I personally can speak of the difficulty shooting a 300 win mag at 1000 and I am a decent shot. You have 75 grains of powder behind a 220 grain bullet in the 300 win mag and 15 grains behind the same bullet in Travis Hartley's video. So here come these guys putting out this info telling everyone, oh yeah, you can shoot 750 to 1000 yards with a blackout and you can do it with a red dot sight or a $59 1-4X leatherwood scope.

The red dot would completely cover a target at 750 yards and the reticle of a 4X scope would completely cover a man sized target at 1000 set on 4x.

I cry Bull$hit and suddenly I am the bad guy for trying to help you (by taking the thread a bit further) understand what your are trying to do? If you do not know what powder you need for a 300 blackout then you obviously do not know much about that round.

You need to understand the mechanics of the round before you choose the powder because this is a round you can blow your head off with if you do not know what you are doing.

Here are the ballistics for a 155 grain bullet at 1950 FPS with an assumed BC of .300 which is close to what Yan said he used.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1945 -0.5 0 0 1302 0
50 1818 1.07 1.36 0.8 1138 0
100 1702 0 5.37 0.17 997 0
150 1591 -4.09 12.39 0.26 871 0
200 1487 -11.62 22.85 0.36 761 0
250 1391 -23.09 37.26 0.46 666 0
300 1304 -39.07 56.17 0.57 585 0
350 1227 -60.16 80.2 0.69 518 0
400 1160 -87.03 110 0.8 463 0
450 1104 -120.34 146.24 0.95 420 0
500 1059 -160.73 189.57 1.09 386 0
550 1020 -208.83 240.6 1.23 358 0
600 987 -265.22 299.92 1.38 335 0
650 958 -330.42 368.06 1.54 316 0
700 933 -404.96 445.53 1.7 300 0
750 910 -489.32 532.82 1.86 285 0
800 889 -583.95 630.39 2.02 272 0
850 869 -689.35 738.72 2.2 260 0
900 851 -805.94 858.25 2.37 249 0
950 833 -934.22 989.46 2.55 239 0
1000 817 -1074.61 1132.7 2.73 230 0

Yep, 95 feet of drop... 90 MOA... So Timothy Yan pulled off a 1000 yard shot with a blackout using a $59 1-4X 24MM HI-LUX LEATHERWOOD scope. (Guess I better throw my $2,000 Nightforce in the trash if I can do the same thing with a $59 Leatherwood)

Seriously Mike, do you honestly believe the BS in that video and in that article? The math shows you how completely ridiculous these statements are.

I'll stay out of your post, I do apologize for trying to get you on the right track and understand what you were wanting to use and do with your Blackout.

 

[BigRso]

Yep have a look at Travis Hartley's video at about 7:30 into it and he is shooting a suppressed SBR 300 BLK with a red dot sight 750 yards. Yep sure I really believe that.

I also find it curious when a writer promoting a manufacturer makes these claims as Timothy Yan did. Seems like the talking points were "lets promote this as a cartridge capable of LR so the uninformed shooter flocks to the store and buys one"

So lets add some reality to this discussion, which is what I intended to do for you in the first place. TO HELP YOU understand the 300 cartridge a bit better.

There are some awesome shooters in the hide that shoot 300 win mag a 1000 yards and they will tell you what a challenge it is to pull that off reliably. I personally can speak of the difficulty shooting a 300 win mag at 1000 and I am a decent shot. You have 75 grains of powder behind a 220 grain bullet in the 300 win mag and 15 grains behind the same bullet in Travis Hartley's video. So here come these guys putting out this info telling everyone, oh yeah, you can shoot 750 to 1000 yards with a blackout and you can do it with a red dot sight or a $59 1-4X leatherwood scope.

The red dot would completely cover a target at 750 yards and the reticle of a 4X scope would completely cover a man sized target at 1000 set on 4x.

I cry Bull$hit and suddenly I am the bad guy for trying to help you (by taking the thread a bit further) understand what your are trying to do? If you do not know what powder you need for a 300 blackout then you obviously do not know much about that round.

You need to understand the mechanics of the round before you choose the powder because this is a round you can blow your head off with if you do not know what you are doing.

Here are the ballistics for a 155 grain bullet at 1950 FPS with an assumed BC of .300 which is close to what Yan said he used.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1945 -0.5 0 0 1302 0
50 1818 1.07 1.36 0.8 1138 0
100 1702 0 5.37 0.17 997 0
150 1591 -4.09 12.39 0.26 871 0
200 1487 -11.62 22.85 0.36 761 0
250 1391 -23.09 37.26 0.46 666 0
300 1304 -39.07 56.17 0.57 585 0
350 1227 -60.16 80.2 0.69 518 0
400 1160 -87.03 110 0.8 463 0
450 1104 -120.34 146.24 0.95 420 0
500 1059 -160.73 189.57 1.09 386 0
550 1020 -208.83 240.6 1.23 358 0
600 987 -265.22 299.92 1.38 335 0
650 958 -330.42 368.06 1.54 316 0
700 933 -404.96 445.53 1.7 300 0
750 910 -489.32 532.82 1.86 285 0
800 889 -583.95 630.39 2.02 272 0
850 869 -689.35 738.72 2.2 260 0
900 851 -805.94 858.25 2.37 249 0
950 833 -934.22 989.46 2.55 239 0
1000 817 -1074.61 1132.7 2.73 230 0

Yep, 95 feet of drop... 90 MOA... So Timothy Yan pulled off a 1000 yard shot with a blackout using a $59 1-4X 24MM HI-LUX LEATHERWOOD scope. (Guess I better throw my $2,000 Nightforce in the trash if I can do the same thing with a $59 Leatherwood)

Seriously Mike, do you honestly believe the BS in that video and in that article? The math shows you how completely ridiculous these statements are.

I'll stay out of your post, I do apologize for trying to get you on the right track and understand what you were wanting to use and do with your Blackout.

No need to apologize and I have no intentions of shooting my Blackout in all honesty past 200 yards 300 for me would be pushing it. Didn't add one to my safe for that, I have a 308 for

my LR shooting along with a SPR 223 wylde for that. I simply wanted a cartridge with more stopping power for CQB. As I stated earlier I appreciate your input as I do everyones input

here at the hide. I was just pointing you to a few articles on the subject I pride myself for thinking I am a pretty good shot for as long as I have been shooting which isn't very long

enjoy LR and training. The guys in the article are far better then me so I cant judge them I take the mans word for what it is worth. What upset me was you kept on posting how I am

not using the right heads not shooting subsonic my bank roll isn't that long my friend I am a working family man which enjoys an expensive hobby. So I have to work with what I have

before I can justify dropping more cash for something. In either event I got what I needed from this thread 1lb lil gun 1lb h110 time to work up my load, I will leave the BIG SHOT BS to others...

Thanks and be well,
Mike