.300 Blackout

[ddavis]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MBC223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why does one have to be better than the other? They both have their perks. Get wich one works for you. This sounds like remmy guys saying savages are shit and savage guys saying factory remmys won't shoot. Move on.
(ps savage sucks lol) </div></div>

Anyone with common sense can see both have their pros and cons, what I'm calling out it the BS Robert continues to spread among the inter webs that degrades the 6.8 to make his anemic 300BO look better.

Oh yeah, Savage has been kicking remys arse for quite some time in the bolt gun world.

</div></div>

Both of you guys have it wrong. Savage and Remington both suck. Tikka is where it's at.

 

[rusty815]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A chamber cannot be over pressure, just ammunition.

Yes, 6.8 has more energy at 300 yards than 300 BLK. And 6.5 G has more energy at 300 yards than 6.8. </div></div>

The fact of the matter is, the tactical ammunition isn't overpressured in a Spec II chamber, its at higher pressure, yes, but not overpressure

at 300 yards the 6.8 still has an energy advantage, seeing as how it can shoot bullets of the same weight at higher velocities, the 6.5 doesn't start getting an energy advantage until much further downrange, at 600yrds, their numbers are almost identical.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both of you guys have it wrong. Savage and Remington both suck. Tikka is where it's at.

</div></div>

My Savage begs to differ

I need to add a Tikka to my collection.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Both of you guys have it wrong. Savage and Remington both suck. Tikka is where it's at.

</div></div>

LOL, I've been finger banging the Tikkas at the local fun shop. I musk say, those are some nice rifles.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[The fact of the matter is, the tactical ammunition isn't overpressured in a Spec II chamber, its at higher pressure, yes, but not overpressure</div></div>

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Here are two loads which are listed by SSA as 58,700 psi in a SPC-II chamber:

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_barnes_95gr_ttsx_tactical.aspx

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_nosler_85gr_etip_tactical.aspx

While it is true that the SPC-II chamber lowers pressure from the SAAMI chamber, the max pressure of 6.8 is still 55,000 psi - and these are 58,700 psi even in an SPC-II chamber. 58,700 is more than 55,000 - so therefore, they are over pressure (not saying it is dangerous).

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: .300 Blackout

So if you're not saying it's dangerou<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[The fact of the matter is, the tactical ammunition isn't overpressured in a Spec II chamber, its at higher pressure, yes, but not overpressure</div></div>

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Here are two loads which are listed by SSA as 58,700 psi in a SPC-II chamber:

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_barnes_95gr_ttsx_tactical.aspx

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_nosler_85gr_etip_tactical.aspx

While it is true that the SPC-II chamber lowers pressure from the SAAMI chamber, the max pressure of 6.8 is still 55,000 psi - and these are 58,700 psi even in an SPC-II chamber. 58,700 is more than 55,000 - so therefore, they are over pressure (not saying it is dangerous).</div></div>

If your not alluding to the the pressure being dangerous, why keep bringing it up? It's readily available factory ammo that many people have great success with, who knows, maybe SSA will figure out how to get some performance out of your baby.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your not alluding to the the pressure being dangerous, why keep bringing it up? It's readily available factory ammo that many people have great success with, who knows, maybe SSA will figure out how to get some performance out of your baby. </div></div>

I am not bringing it up to alude that it is dangerous but I don't think it is right to include them for the basis of caliber comparisons in charts because you can load any cartridge hot or to more than the normal max OAL. The SSA Berger 140 requires special magazines, etc. It is trick ammunition.

Another example: Buffalo Bore loads 40 S&W +P to 1100 fps for a 180 grain when 1000 fps is normal for the cartridge. This is not some great invention or discovery that Buffalo Bore has made - just a wildcat version of the cartridge that comes with an asterisk, like Barry Bonds on steroids.

The only reason why the 6.8 world gets away with this more than other cartridges is because there is a lack of 6.8 ammunition from mainstream companies to drown it out as noise. When Federal comes out with their 6.8 ammunition, that is probably going to be the best candidate to use in charts because it is of a fresh design that has had the benefit of seeing what everyone else has done over the last nine years.

 

[Jmilera]

Re: .300 Blackout

Sorry to hijack the thread, but can anyone point me to a place I can purchase some 300 Bo ammo subsonic? Price is not a factor I just want some accurate reliable stuff,but I could not find any thanks gents

 

[TwoGun]

Re: .300 Blackout

Whisper, Fireball, Blackout chambers are different but the factory ammo is pretty much all the same.

I think Corbon is the most accurate and the most expensive. Hornady not so great and Remington absolutely blows.

Don't know about HSM.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?usersearch...mensionid=13950

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whisper, Fireball, Blackout chambers are different but the factory ammo is pretty much all the same.

I think Corbon is the most accurate and the most expensive. Hornady not so great and Remington absolutely blows.

Don't know about HSM.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?usersearch...mensionid=13950

</div></div>

One thing about any of these rounds is unless you go with the 5.56, you had better get used to the idea of reloading.

I reload and have no problem making these rounds as effective as you can make them. But, I'm seeing on several sites, the subsonic ammo is not available right now.

What is available is not optimal for .300 BO/WH/FB subsonic. It appears as though the ammo companies, lacking the right components, have loaded 'the next best thing'. Which unfortunately, isn't the right thing.

 

[Jmilera]

Re: .300 Blackout

Thank you gents reloading for another caliber it is.

 

[TwoGun]

Re: .300 Blackout

Well, I'm hoping Silver State does their homework and comes up with a reasonable solution. I really do like the Corbon 220 and I can do 1.5 to 2" groups with it at 100yds. Hornady is in the 3 to 4" range and Remington is "shotgun pattern" and isn't always subsonic.

If Silver State can do 2" groups at less than $25/box, that would be a solution. Until then, loading works just fine.

http://www.ssarmory.com/300_BLK_Blackout.aspx

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I'm hoping Silver State does their homework and comes up with a reasonable solution. I really do like the Corbon 220 and I can do 1.5 to 2" groups with it at 100yds. Hornady is in the 3 to 4" range and Remington is "shotgun pattern" and isn't always subsonic.

If Silver State can do 2" groups at less than $25/box, that would be a solution. Until then, loading works just fine.

http://www.ssarmory.com/300_BLK_Blackout.aspx</div></div>

Is that from an AR-15 platform? The reason I ask is, I did a lot of accuracy and trajectory testing from a TC 14" barrel. Assuming the -15 platform is as good as my other ones I wasn't worried about a difference in accuracy capability.

 

[jwb47]

Re: .300 Blackout

after my experience with cor-bon ammo and a 458 socom I would rather throw rocks than use cor-bon. If your shooting the blackout reloading is your friend.

 

[BC98]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, 346ci forgot to mention; The Federal lines of ammo is at Lake City(around 150 million 6.8 rounds a year). </div></div>

I apologize for the (further) derailment of this thread but I had to address the above quote.

The 6.8 lines are not located at the Lake City facility.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is normal for SPCII and 6.8X43 chambers, 99% of the market.</div></div>

You are saying that Remington, Hornady, and (soon to be) Federal all share 1% of the 6.8 ammunition market, and Wilson Combat and SSA have the rest of the 99%?

That is ridiculous.

 

[wallace11bravo]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfjames22</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TGagnon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This entire thread reads like barfcom. </div></div>

Yuup </div></div>

So instead of this petty bickering, how about some scientific data? All of the 300BO stuff I see does seem alot like a sham-wow commercial. The data showed here on either cartridge seems to only focus on certain facets, which I assume means you are ignoring the weak areas.

How can such an "anemic" looking cartridge still perform much past 200? Maybe all the claims are true, but I am a skeptic, I demand proof from unbiased sources.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why doesn't someone do this:</span>

-9" Barrel 300BO Super
-9" Barrel 300BO Sub
-9" Barrel 6.8mm Heavy
-9" Barrel 5.56mm Heavy
-9" Barrel 6.8mm Light
-9" Barrel 5.56mm Light

-16" Barrel 300BO Super
-16" Barrel 300BO Sub
-16" Barrel 6.8mm Heavy
-16" Barrel 5.56mm Heavy
-16" Barrel 6.8mm Light
-16" Barrel 5.56mm Light

<span style="font-weight: bold">Data to be recorded from each round/rifle combo:</span>

Muzzle Velocity
Muzzle Energy
Groups at 100
Ballistic Gel tests at 100 and 300 (video, not just the gel afterwards)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Use data gathered and ballistic calculator to compare:</span>
Elevation and windage tables (plus drop from bore line, etc)
Terminal velocity and energy tables
<span style="font-style: italic">(True the algorithm or it is not valid)</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Other comparitive commentary:</span>
Start up cost
Cost per round/availability
Felt recoil
Weapon weight

I'm sure a few other things I'm not thinking of. Feel free to add things. My point is, I still haven't seen any objective side by side comparisons, just alot of name calling and late night infomercial style advertising.

And for the sake of sanity, let us only talk about things we know about, instead of pretending we know what the market is going to do in the future, let's talk about how it is now.

 

[bustin]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallace11bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfjames22</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TGagnon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This entire thread reads like barfcom. </div></div>

Yuup </div></div>

So instead of this petty bickering, how about some scientific data? All of the 300BO stuff I see does seem alot like a sham-wow commercial. The data showed here on either cartridge seems to only focus on certain facets, which I assume means you are ignoring the weak areas.

How can such an "anemic" looking cartridge still perform much past 200? Maybe all the claims are true, but I am a skeptic, I demand proof from unbiased sources.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why doesn't someone do this:</span>

-9" Barrel 300BO Super
-9" Barrel 300BO Sub
-9" Barrel 6.8mm Heavy
-9" Barrel 5.56mm Heavy
-9" Barrel 6.8mm Light
-9" Barrel 5.56mm Light

-16" Barrel 300BO Super
-16" Barrel 300BO Sub
-16" Barrel 6.8mm Heavy
-16" Barrel 5.56mm Heavy
-16" Barrel 6.8mm Light
-16" Barrel 5.56mm Light

<span style="font-weight: bold">Data to be recorded from each round/rifle combo:</span>

Muzzle Velocity
Muzzle Energy
Groups at 100
Ballistic Gel tests at 100 and 300 (video, not just the gel afterwards)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Use data gathered and ballistic calculator to compare:</span>
Elevation and windage tables (plus drop from bore line, etc)
Terminal velocity and energy tables
<span style="font-style: italic">(True the algorithm or it is not valid)</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Other comparitive commentary:</span>
Start up cost
Cost per round/availability
Felt recoil
Weapon weight

I'm sure a few other things I'm not thinking of. Feel free to add things. My point is, I still haven't seen any objective side by side comparisons, just alot of name calling and late night infomercial style advertising.

And for the sake of sanity, let us only talk about things we know about, instead of pretending we know what the market is going to do in the future, let's talk about how it is now.




</div></div>
Sounds good. Add to that drop below line of sight. As in zero at 100 and then show the comeup to hit at range.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BC98</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, 346ci forgot to mention; The Federal lines of ammo is at Lake City(around 150 million 6.8 rounds a year). </div></div>

I apologize for the (further) derailment of this thread but I had to address the above quote.

The 6.8 lines are not located at the Lake City facility.</div></div>

Correct, they are located in Anoka Minnesota, NW of Minneapolis.

 

[BC98]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BC98</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, 346ci forgot to mention; The Federal lines of ammo is at Lake City(around 150 million 6.8 rounds a year). </div></div>

I apologize for the (further) derailment of this thread but I had to address the above quote.

The 6.8 lines are not located at the Lake City facility.</div></div>

Correct, they are located in Anoka Minnesota, NW of Minneapolis. </div></div>

Yup, I've seen the line. This is the second or third time I've read forum posts somewhere passing this information on. Lake City has no plans to add a 6.8 line.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BC98</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BC98</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, 346ci forgot to mention; The Federal lines of ammo is at Lake City(around 150 million 6.8 rounds a year). </div></div>

I apologize for the (further) derailment of this thread but I had to address the above quote.

The 6.8 lines are not located at the Lake City facility.</div></div>

Correct, they are located in Anoka Minnesota, NW of Minneapolis. </div></div>

Yup, I've seen the line. This is the second or third time I've read forum posts somewhere passing this information on. Lake City has no plans to add a 6.8 line. </div></div>

Muddy inferences. Yeah, that is correct. I got clarification a while back. I forgot I posted that.
My bad!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

wallace11bravo,

I can answer your post I hope. The barrel lengths for the .300 don't matter so much. The best we were able to get (from a non gas operated barrel no less) was using a 110 gr. bullet and getting the same velocity as the AK-47, 2250. Moving up in bullet weight moves velocities downward. All through the bullet weight curve, there is considered be well enough energy to kill out to 400-500 yds. But the bullets are moving so slow to begin with the drops are rather large to adjust for. So, in essence it's limited to about 200 yds. But, it is effective within that range.

Subsonic isn't going to matter because the point is to get the heaviest bullet you can just under the speed of sound so that the bullet makes no noise as it moves through the air. You are eliminating the sonic crack. This is where the .300 really shines.

As far as the 5.56, 6.8SPC and 6.5G, they are all affected about equally by the same differences in barrel/gas path lengths.
The 6.8SPC has a gain in that it now has the Spec II chamber. That is freebore to allow a higher initial pressure loading. You don't get the pressure spike when the bullet reaches the lands and you also get a slightly higher velocity as the bullet 'gets a run' at the lands. This technique is not new, it has been employed in the 5.56 and all Weatherby caliber chambers. Yet, still provides accuracy good enough to range quite far with those specific rounds.
In it's favor the 6.5 Grendel has the ability to load a super high BC bullet as short as standard AR-15 length magazine. Whereas, the 6.8 doesn't. These bullets can remain supersonic out to and beyond 1k. It would have benefited from having some freebore in it's chamber as the 5.56 and 6.8SPC had done. But, the primary initial criteria was accuracy. So, AA decided to give it a double angle leade for accuracy instead of freebore. When it became obvious, it was too late as the round was already SAAMI approved. The .264 LBC was then created to alleviate that problem. As a chambering it's gaining in popularity.

Due to about 20% more capacity, the 6.8SPC and 6.5G can produce a lot more energy than can the 5.56.

That's what I've found from working with the rounds.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: .300 Blackout

When you say enough energy to kill at 400-500 yards I'm guessing you mean skinny humans, not deer or hogs?

Also, the long freebore of the 6,8 allows loading longer COAL. Allowing more room & a lower pressure than the SAAMI version of the SPC. Thus, allowing more velocity, power & range at a given pressure. So, it's not about 'the jump'. ASC/Stoner mags around 2.290-2.295 COAL, PRI loads to 2.3, CPD 2.305 The forth coming LWRC Six8 w/Magpul 6.8 mag has been said to have a COAL of 2.32.Many reloaders have taken advantage of that.

Although, all but, 1 factory load[currently]loads at SAAMI's 2.26 or less.

Also,
6.8
110gr Accubonds .370 BC
120gr SST .400 BC
140gr Beger .487 BC
As you said, not as high as the premium 6.5G/.264LBC bullets.
But, they're not too shabby either.

The 6.8 & 6.5G/.264LBC both do a great job! Like you said both have allot more energy than the 5.56. Both have their + & -.


Still,...Overall very good summary!Thanks!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you say enough energy to kill at 400-500 yards I'm guessing you mean skinny humans, not deer or hogs?

Also, the long freebore of the 6,8 allows loading longer COAL. Allowing more room & a lower pressure than the SAAMI version of the SPC. Thus, allowing more velocity, power & range at a given pressure. So, it's not about 'the jump'. ASC/Stoner mags around 2.290-2.295 COAL, PRI loads to 2.3, CPD 2.305 The forth coming LWRC Six8 w/Magpul 6.8 mag has been said to have a COAL of 2.32.Many reloaders have taken advantage of that.

Although, all but, 1 factory load[currently]loads at SAAMI's 2.26 or less.

Also,
6.8
110gr Accubonds .370 BC
120gr SST .400 BC
140gr Beger .487 BC
As you said, not as high as the premium 6.5G/.264LBC bullets.
But, they're not too shabby either.

The 6.8 & 6.5G/.264LBC both do a great job! Like you said both have allot more energy than the 5.56. Both have their + & -.


Still,...Overall very good summary!Thanks!

</div></div>

Yes, the 400-500 is a numbers game based on skinny humans with no will to live....

I was under the impression (as it was told to me) the SPC II chamber works like the 5.56 and Wby in that the 'jump' has to be made, not a COAL advantage. Cartridges are loaded the same length, but higher pressure. Reason being is they need to be a standard fit in the -15 platform.

It's kind of iffy to get those lengths into a mag and still have it strong enough to work. Also, someone posted a chamber drawing recently. It showed the freebore to be .22" or .23". That's still more run than you can seat a bullet out in a -15 platform.

FWIW, step into the wayback machine, when Jack O'Connor wrote so much about the .270 Win, most bullets (Amercian made anyways) were relatively stubby affairs not at all resembling the long range and VLD bullets we shoot with today. In comparison when all the bullets were 6R-7R ogive, the .270 WAS ballistically superior. When the LR specific bullets came along they got buried. The numbers you show are not only not too shabby, they're pretty damn competitive for bullets only optimized in a 1-10" twist! When we start seeing bullets and barrels matched for a 1-8" twist like the 6mm and 6.5, and even 7mm, you are going to see another step in long range. The .270 is really about the perfect size bore for weight and ballistic capability.