Sorry about the first one not having the subject in it.like i said im new to the forum.so maybe some one can tell me why the 300 Rum is not used in the 1000 yd competition.and you dont here about it that much shooting a 1000 and beyond or the accuracy of them at long range.I am having one built an its kinda making me have second thoughts about it.maybe some one can shed some light on it
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300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
- Thread starter Some Day
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Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
If I was looking at a long range rig, it wouldn't be in 30 caliber. I found Brian Litz's article on the 30's to be very interesting.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf
If I was looking at a long range rig, it wouldn't be in 30 caliber. I found Brian Litz's article on the 30's to be very interesting.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was looking at a long range rig, it wouldn't be in 30 caliber. I found Brian Litz's article on the 30's to be very interesting.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf
</div></div>
Brian states a 230 gr bullet would be ideal and now Berger has that in their offerings. Hornady also offers a 225 gr match bullet. Recoil is an issue but, if you have a brake and the rifle weighs enough, recoil wont be an issue.
I think you'll be just fine with your RUM. I'm having a 300NM imp built as we speak, throated for the 210 Bergers and plan on trying the Hornady 225's and 230's when they are more readily available.
I also wanted to add that the impact signature of the heavies is much greater and this is VERY important when your close, but don't impact your desired target. I've endured alot of frustration when looking for imapcts from a 107 or 115gr 243 bullet. Their design is superior but they lack the mass and energy to throw up alot of debris at 1000yd plus.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was looking at a long range rig, it wouldn't be in 30 caliber. I found Brian Litz's article on the 30's to be very interesting.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf
</div></div>
Brian states a 230 gr bullet would be ideal and now Berger has that in their offerings. Hornady also offers a 225 gr match bullet. Recoil is an issue but, if you have a brake and the rifle weighs enough, recoil wont be an issue.
I think you'll be just fine with your RUM. I'm having a 300NM imp built as we speak, throated for the 210 Bergers and plan on trying the Hornady 225's and 230's when they are more readily available.
I also wanted to add that the impact signature of the heavies is much greater and this is VERY important when your close, but don't impact your desired target. I've endured alot of frustration when looking for imapcts from a 107 or 115gr 243 bullet. Their design is superior but they lack the mass and energy to throw up alot of debris at 1000yd plus.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Bryan's article was from a few years ago. As stated above, new bullets have changed things. I really like a 7mm but they have never surpassed the 300's in matches, even when they had better BC bullets than the 300's. Was a hard decision for me, but I chose the 300 Win Mag for a medium sized rifle to be used to it's full range capabilities. I have never regreted it.
Why not the 300 RUM ? Same reason I sold off my 30-378's. Recoil, barrel life and using a lot of powder with diminishing returns.
Jeff
Bryan's article was from a few years ago. As stated above, new bullets have changed things. I really like a 7mm but they have never surpassed the 300's in matches, even when they had better BC bullets than the 300's. Was a hard decision for me, but I chose the 300 Win Mag for a medium sized rifle to be used to it's full range capabilities. I have never regreted it.
Why not the 300 RUM ? Same reason I sold off my 30-378's. Recoil, barrel life and using a lot of powder with diminishing returns.
Jeff
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
It's a decent option if you shoot slow. When you have to put multiple rounds down range in a short time frame, you're going to cook the barrel. 100+ grains of powder gets a barrel hot quick. It's a good option for 1000 + yards with the new 225 and 230 grain high BC bullets.
It's a decent option if you shoot slow. When you have to put multiple rounds down range in a short time frame, you're going to cook the barrel. 100+ grains of powder gets a barrel hot quick. It's a good option for 1000 + yards with the new 225 and 230 grain high BC bullets.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
It is a poorly designed case by modern standards. Too long and skinny of a powder column. Too shallow of a shoulder angle.
The mfgrs when they come out with a line of chamberings using the same name but different bullet diameters change up the case dimensions so that you can't put the wrong ammo in your rifle. In the process of doing this, the 300WM was effed up and how the 300 RUM was effed up. The 338 RUM case on the other hand carries the desirable features of a modern magnum case - straighter walled, sharper shouldered, neck length well in excess of one bullet diameter.
This is why the correct way to do a WSM with a .284" bore is to take the 270 WSM case and neck it up to .284" so that you have more neck than on the 7 WSM case.
The 300 RUM is a fine chambering for what it is intended for - magnum 30 caliber hunting round. The lower round count and lessened accuracy requirements of this application are supported just fine with the 300 RUM.
This is not to say it would be a POOR LR chambering, just that it carries some compromises in this role most would prefer to avoid.
It is a poorly designed case by modern standards. Too long and skinny of a powder column. Too shallow of a shoulder angle.
The mfgrs when they come out with a line of chamberings using the same name but different bullet diameters change up the case dimensions so that you can't put the wrong ammo in your rifle. In the process of doing this, the 300WM was effed up and how the 300 RUM was effed up. The 338 RUM case on the other hand carries the desirable features of a modern magnum case - straighter walled, sharper shouldered, neck length well in excess of one bullet diameter.
This is why the correct way to do a WSM with a .284" bore is to take the 270 WSM case and neck it up to .284" so that you have more neck than on the 7 WSM case.
The 300 RUM is a fine chambering for what it is intended for - magnum 30 caliber hunting round. The lower round count and lessened accuracy requirements of this application are supported just fine with the 300 RUM.
This is not to say it would be a POOR LR chambering, just that it carries some compromises in this role most would prefer to avoid.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Wow, learned something there about cartridge and case design, glad I built my 7wsm this year, didn't think about it that hard either!
Wow, learned something there about cartridge and case design, glad I built my 7wsm this year, didn't think about it that hard either!
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Competition imposes diferent demands on a cartidge and barrel than hunting does.
The impressive power that a magnum cartidge provides the hunter also imposes a bore life overhead. Hunters typically will not shoot as many rounds over their rifle's lifetime, so the Magnums can provide acceptable bore life in a hunting application.
Competition imposes a higher volume of fire on the barrel. This accelerates bore throat erosion, and reduces the number of outings that can be sustained over the lifetime of the bore. Chamberings that impose a higher throat erosion level will usually result in unacceptably brief bore life.
While accuracy and a flatter trajectory can be the result of using magnum chamberings, bore life prohibitions tend to outweigh these benefits for competitive chamberings.
In the interest of bore longevity, I prefer cartridges like the .30'06 for 30 cal, the .280 Rem for 7mm, and the .260 Rem for 6.5mm. Cartridges that employ greater case capacities in those bore diameters become prohibitively overbore, in my own limited opinion.
Greg
Competition imposes diferent demands on a cartidge and barrel than hunting does.
The impressive power that a magnum cartidge provides the hunter also imposes a bore life overhead. Hunters typically will not shoot as many rounds over their rifle's lifetime, so the Magnums can provide acceptable bore life in a hunting application.
Competition imposes a higher volume of fire on the barrel. This accelerates bore throat erosion, and reduces the number of outings that can be sustained over the lifetime of the bore. Chamberings that impose a higher throat erosion level will usually result in unacceptably brief bore life.
While accuracy and a flatter trajectory can be the result of using magnum chamberings, bore life prohibitions tend to outweigh these benefits for competitive chamberings.
In the interest of bore longevity, I prefer cartridges like the .30'06 for 30 cal, the .280 Rem for 7mm, and the .260 Rem for 6.5mm. Cartridges that employ greater case capacities in those bore diameters become prohibitively overbore, in my own limited opinion.
Greg
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Thanks alot guys its gives me a little more under standing of it.I love the 300 Rum but i think i want more barrel life.I think maybe ill ask my gunsmith about changing it to a 338 Lapua cause i want to shoot long range alot.were i live in pa i can shoot 1500 to 1600 yds
Thanks alot guys its gives me a little more under standing of it.I love the 300 Rum but i think i want more barrel life.I think maybe ill ask my gunsmith about changing it to a 338 Lapua cause i want to shoot long range alot.were i live in pa i can shoot 1500 to 1600 yds
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
You can stick with the rum if you're running a 10 twist barrel. Run anything 208 gr and above and you will have less recoil than the 300 gr you'll likely run in the 338.
You could always have the barrel nitrided by mmi tru tech to increase life.
You can stick with the rum if you're running a 10 twist barrel. Run anything 208 gr and above and you will have less recoil than the 300 gr you'll likely run in the 338.
You could always have the barrel nitrided by mmi tru tech to increase life.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
I hope to test the 230 Berger next week..finishing up another project first.
As far as a .30 not being suited to long range this is where I say go back and test with capable rifles, shooters and bullets then hit print.
Just so happens a .30 rules the accuracy stats here and abroad.
How far is long range? 1000? 1200? 1500? One mile?
I think BC and transonic has folks fooled and this is what I'm talkng about when it comes to reading. How many times has shooters here at TVP seen the 1650 yard target hit on the first shot by a .300 Hulk???
Yes, there are cartridges that may do those distances easier but in good conditions NEVER more accurate. Add conditions and the .30 can still hang with a .338.
Goin Hot is building a .300 for a reason....and he will be glad he did. He has seen it work time and time again.
The RUM will work in a good build and tuned loads but I would go with a .300 WSM first or a NM or Hulk....depending on the percentage of shots fired at a particular distance.
By the way, the .30 240 SMK holds two world records and the most smallest consistant groups ever shot at long range....1000 yards.
We will see how the 230 Berger does with a custom rifle built for the task and a shooter steering it properly.
I'm very excited to start this test and I will share and have others involved with the test.
Hurry and get that rifle Goin hot!
I hope to test the 230 Berger next week..finishing up another project first.
As far as a .30 not being suited to long range this is where I say go back and test with capable rifles, shooters and bullets then hit print.
Just so happens a .30 rules the accuracy stats here and abroad.
How far is long range? 1000? 1200? 1500? One mile?
I think BC and transonic has folks fooled and this is what I'm talkng about when it comes to reading. How many times has shooters here at TVP seen the 1650 yard target hit on the first shot by a .300 Hulk???
Yes, there are cartridges that may do those distances easier but in good conditions NEVER more accurate. Add conditions and the .30 can still hang with a .338.
Goin Hot is building a .300 for a reason....and he will be glad he did. He has seen it work time and time again.
The RUM will work in a good build and tuned loads but I would go with a .300 WSM first or a NM or Hulk....depending on the percentage of shots fired at a particular distance.
By the way, the .30 240 SMK holds two world records and the most smallest consistant groups ever shot at long range....1000 yards.
We will see how the 230 Berger does with a custom rifle built for the task and a shooter steering it properly.
I'm very excited to start this test and I will share and have others involved with the test.
Hurry and get that rifle Goin hot!
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope to test the 230 Berger next week..finishing up another project first.
As far as a .30 not being suited to long range this is where I say go back and test with capable rifles, shooters and bullets then hit print.
Just so happens a .30 rules the accuracy stats here and abroad.
How far is long range? 1000? 1200? 1500? One mile?
I think BC and transonic has folks fooled and this is what I'm talkng about when it comes to reading. How many times has shooters here at TVP seen the 1650 yard target hit on the first shot by a .300 Hulk???
Yes, there are cartridges that may do those distances easier but in good conditions NEVER more accurate. Add conditions and the .30 can still hang with a .338.
Goin Hot is building a .300 for a reason....and he will be glad he did. He has seen it work time and time again.
The RUM will work in a good build and tuned loads but I would go with a .300 WSM first or a NM or Hulk....depending on the percentage of shots fired at a particular distance.
By the way, the .30 240 SMK holds two world records and the most smallest consistant groups ever shot at long range....1000 yards.
We will see how the 230 Berger does with a custom rifle built for the task and a shooter steering it properly.
I'm very excited to start this test and I will share and have others involved with the test.
Hurry and get that rifle Goin hot!
</div></div>
Carn't wait to see your results with the new berger 230gr fingers crossed
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope to test the 230 Berger next week..finishing up another project first.
As far as a .30 not being suited to long range this is where I say go back and test with capable rifles, shooters and bullets then hit print.
Just so happens a .30 rules the accuracy stats here and abroad.
How far is long range? 1000? 1200? 1500? One mile?
I think BC and transonic has folks fooled and this is what I'm talkng about when it comes to reading. How many times has shooters here at TVP seen the 1650 yard target hit on the first shot by a .300 Hulk???
Yes, there are cartridges that may do those distances easier but in good conditions NEVER more accurate. Add conditions and the .30 can still hang with a .338.
Goin Hot is building a .300 for a reason....and he will be glad he did. He has seen it work time and time again.
The RUM will work in a good build and tuned loads but I would go with a .300 WSM first or a NM or Hulk....depending on the percentage of shots fired at a particular distance.
By the way, the .30 240 SMK holds two world records and the most smallest consistant groups ever shot at long range....1000 yards.
We will see how the 230 Berger does with a custom rifle built for the task and a shooter steering it properly.
I'm very excited to start this test and I will share and have others involved with the test.
Hurry and get that rifle Goin hot!
</div></div>
Carn't wait to see your results with the new berger 230gr fingers crossed
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Tom,
Congratulations on your 1,000 yard record.
Will you explain, in as much detail as necessary, what it is you believe about balllistic coefficients, and transonic effects, that has people "fooled" relative to long range accuracy?
Setting Reynolds numbers aside, and shooter comfort, you are not suggesting that accuracy is inherent in caliber, are you?
Tom,
Congratulations on your 1,000 yard record.
Will you explain, in as much detail as necessary, what it is you believe about balllistic coefficients, and transonic effects, that has people "fooled" relative to long range accuracy?
Setting Reynolds numbers aside, and shooter comfort, you are not suggesting that accuracy is inherent in caliber, are you?
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Here is the chambering Tom is referring to.
I don't see above where anyone is questioning the accuracy of the 30 caliber bore diameter or projectiles. Maybe a post got deleted.
Note that that the Hulk has the desirable features the 300 RUM is lacking. Less body taper, shorter/fatter powder column, steeper shoulder angle. Plenty of neck too.
Here is the chambering Tom is referring to.
I don't see above where anyone is questioning the accuracy of the 30 caliber bore diameter or projectiles. Maybe a post got deleted.
Note that that the Hulk has the desirable features the 300 RUM is lacking. Less body taper, shorter/fatter powder column, steeper shoulder angle. Plenty of neck too.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Ron, why don't you fill out your profile. There may be a member near by that could let you see and shoot some different stuff.
Ron, why don't you fill out your profile. There may be a member near by that could let you see and shoot some different stuff.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
9H,
It was the comment about relative performance of 30, and 338, caliber (per se) that I was referring to.
9H,
It was the comment about relative performance of 30, and 338, caliber (per se) that I was referring to.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Both the rig and the shooter look well capable of handing the recoil of a heavy 30 cal pill going 3k+ FPS.
Both the rig and the shooter look well capable of handing the recoil of a heavy 30 cal pill going 3k+ FPS.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Flat based bullets have a low BC but I have seen them win 1000 yard matches a time or two. They are accurate and that is what counts.
The 240 SMK is shaped like a foot ball yet has a high BC .711 and I launch it at 3000+ fps. At one mile it has shot .5 moa several times.
BC and transonic go hand in had BUT they do not ALWAYS effect accuracy. They are scientiffic numbers that tell us what CAN happen...and I guess what generally happens in and "average" rifle/loads and situation.
High BC bullets without a doubt are a long range shooters edge.
But a lower BC bullet can perform just as well if the speed is there and the rifle is launching it straight.
The new Berger 300 Hybrid is working GREAT and the high BC helps as well as the over shape and design.
I have shot Berger 210's at 3400+ with accuracy...the did not fall out of the sky like folks think.
Transonic effects only applies to "lessor" trued rifles and loads that are NOT tuned for accuracy. Although I have seen SAKO TRG 308's shoot to one mile with 155's LS with great accuracy. So, how do we explain that?
BC and transonic effects are still a mystery. Weather and conditions control those factors more often than not. For those of us who have launched thousands of rounds down range at 1000 yards to 2000 know what really happens...we just can't explain it.
I will give everyone a perfect example...if BC and transonic meant much when it comes to accuracy on paper then why can't a .408 out group my little .300 Hulk shooting a 240 SMK at 1000 yards or one mile to date? Hmm...they did it in the movie "Shooter"
If a shooting system is built correctly and the load is tuned most all rifles I've seen WILL do a mile with a degree of accuracy.
This includes 6mm 6.5 .30 cal's and .338.
The 300 RUM will perform but it will lack any type of winning aggregate. It is a hunting cartridge at most but I'm sure we could make one shoot if we had to. There are much better choices.
They're alot of great cartridge choices for this game.
One has to decide what the "most" important distance he wants to shoot to make the right decision in that selection.
There is no best...(best) would be for all and if we all had to vote on the best it would be a .308 win. hands down to 1000 yards.
Best means all things considered. The next best would be the 5.56/223
if you get my drift. After that it's personal preference and what makes us happy and ULTIMATELY HOW FAR WE WANT TO SHOOT WITH CONSISTANT ACCURACY. Or...if we are hunting well trained men with skill..then you have to step out to a new level. Reach combined with skill can be the deciding factor. But you still have to see and confirm what and who you are shooting at. The more distance you put between you and the target the harder it is to detect and see..and hit.
So, when building or deciding on a shooting system think ahead...talk to folks who know and you can't go wrong.
Another example, most bow hunters only practice to 30-40 yards at most. Some practice out to 60 yards and farther. Most are only comfortable to 20-25.
A business card at 40 yards is an easy target for the guy who trains out to 50 yards.
Another example..how many shooters who have seen a .22 LR subsonic in action the last couple months at TVP???
There are no limits...only the ones we set for ourselves...or let others convince us of.
Flat based bullets have a low BC but I have seen them win 1000 yard matches a time or two. They are accurate and that is what counts.
The 240 SMK is shaped like a foot ball yet has a high BC .711 and I launch it at 3000+ fps. At one mile it has shot .5 moa several times.
BC and transonic go hand in had BUT they do not ALWAYS effect accuracy. They are scientiffic numbers that tell us what CAN happen...and I guess what generally happens in and "average" rifle/loads and situation.
High BC bullets without a doubt are a long range shooters edge.
But a lower BC bullet can perform just as well if the speed is there and the rifle is launching it straight.
The new Berger 300 Hybrid is working GREAT and the high BC helps as well as the over shape and design.
I have shot Berger 210's at 3400+ with accuracy...the did not fall out of the sky like folks think.
Transonic effects only applies to "lessor" trued rifles and loads that are NOT tuned for accuracy. Although I have seen SAKO TRG 308's shoot to one mile with 155's LS with great accuracy. So, how do we explain that?
BC and transonic effects are still a mystery. Weather and conditions control those factors more often than not. For those of us who have launched thousands of rounds down range at 1000 yards to 2000 know what really happens...we just can't explain it.
I will give everyone a perfect example...if BC and transonic meant much when it comes to accuracy on paper then why can't a .408 out group my little .300 Hulk shooting a 240 SMK at 1000 yards or one mile to date? Hmm...they did it in the movie "Shooter"
If a shooting system is built correctly and the load is tuned most all rifles I've seen WILL do a mile with a degree of accuracy.
This includes 6mm 6.5 .30 cal's and .338.
The 300 RUM will perform but it will lack any type of winning aggregate. It is a hunting cartridge at most but I'm sure we could make one shoot if we had to. There are much better choices.
They're alot of great cartridge choices for this game.
One has to decide what the "most" important distance he wants to shoot to make the right decision in that selection.
There is no best...(best) would be for all and if we all had to vote on the best it would be a .308 win. hands down to 1000 yards.
Best means all things considered. The next best would be the 5.56/223
if you get my drift. After that it's personal preference and what makes us happy and ULTIMATELY HOW FAR WE WANT TO SHOOT WITH CONSISTANT ACCURACY. Or...if we are hunting well trained men with skill..then you have to step out to a new level. Reach combined with skill can be the deciding factor. But you still have to see and confirm what and who you are shooting at. The more distance you put between you and the target the harder it is to detect and see..and hit.
So, when building or deciding on a shooting system think ahead...talk to folks who know and you can't go wrong.
Another example, most bow hunters only practice to 30-40 yards at most. Some practice out to 60 yards and farther. Most are only comfortable to 20-25.
A business card at 40 yards is an easy target for the guy who trains out to 50 yards.
Another example..how many shooters who have seen a .22 LR subsonic in action the last couple months at TVP???
There are no limits...only the ones we set for ourselves...or let others convince us of.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
"High BC bullets wiithout a doubt are a long range shooters edge."...
This is the clarification that I was looking for, and I agree that we are defining "lomg range" to be within the performance envelope of a given caliber... all else being equal.
"Transonic effects only apply to "lessor" trued rifles and loads that are NOT tuned for accuracy."...
You lost me here. How are transonic effects impacted by the rifle, or load?
"High BC bullets wiithout a doubt are a long range shooters edge."...
This is the clarification that I was looking for, and I agree that we are defining "lomg range" to be within the performance envelope of a given caliber... all else being equal.
"Transonic effects only apply to "lessor" trued rifles and loads that are NOT tuned for accuracy."...
You lost me here. How are transonic effects impacted by the rifle, or load?
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
You guys know how to make a guys brain go from 0 to hundred.Ive done a lot of thinking in the last few days.I am a die hard hunter so i am going to stay with the rum build.I love shooting my 300 rum ive shot dear 500 yds with it.now that its getting a new face lift i will beabull to shoot farther and more accurate.when i was younger i always wanted to shoot long distance.Now that i am 51 and having my first custom rifle built.And I Have Bin Bitten By The Long Range Bug once this build is done i well be saving for another build.And tom i probably will be gitting in touch with you on the 300 hulk when i save my pennies up "lol" Thanks for all your help Guys
You guys know how to make a guys brain go from 0 to hundred.Ive done a lot of thinking in the last few days.I am a die hard hunter so i am going to stay with the rum build.I love shooting my 300 rum ive shot dear 500 yds with it.now that its getting a new face lift i will beabull to shoot farther and more accurate.when i was younger i always wanted to shoot long distance.Now that i am 51 and having my first custom rifle built.And I Have Bin Bitten By The Long Range Bug once this build is done i well be saving for another build.And tom i probably will be gitting in touch with you on the 300 hulk when i save my pennies up "lol" Thanks for all your help Guys
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Had a 300 RUM 5 rifles ago. It was a stock 700 in an AICS 2.0.
That gun SHOT. It's still the most accurate gun I have ever driven, with .1's being it's normal MO. Ran the berger 210's at the time.
Since I didn't have a brake on it, it was fun to regain consciousness and see the little group you formed over the course of 4 hours.
Barrel life was going to be less than 1k, though.
Had a 300 RUM 5 rifles ago. It was a stock 700 in an AICS 2.0.
That gun SHOT. It's still the most accurate gun I have ever driven, with .1's being it's normal MO. Ran the berger 210's at the time.
Since I didn't have a brake on it, it was fun to regain consciousness and see the little group you formed over the course of 4 hours.
Barrel life was going to be less than 1k, though.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Sir,
A custom rifle (most) of the time is as true as true can get with the current technology we have.
This being the case along with the ammo being (tuned) to the rifle will allow the shooter a better chance of long range accuracy as the bullet goes transonic.
When bullets are spun on Juenke or concentricity gauge and seated with a in-line bullet seater they are going to be MUCH more stable when they go transonic. Most rifles and loads are doomed from time they exit the muzzle because it is not coming out true...or perfectly straight.
Following precision reloading technics and and shooting custom rifles wil always give better results.
Now, for the good news. I have tuned 100% factory rifles to where they shot sub MOA out to 600 and they will perform (through) the transonic realm "most" of the time.
Bullets that pass through the transonic "realm" are effected much more if their flight is not stable from the get go..they are wobbly and as they slow down they look like a foot ball that has just been thrown by a 5 year old girl...that's why the dont make it to the target and if they do it's sideways thru the paper.
Example...this is why a factory rifle does not stand a chance in a 3 target agg against a custom rifle with tuned loads at 1000 yards.
Groups are 50% smaller most of the time. Why???????
Because the rifle is true and the ammo is true as well as tuned.
Tuning is not enough..it's the whole package and if a bullet does not exit the muzzle perfectly straight then your groups OPEN up big time.
Your groups get bigger and yours scores drop..because your "shooting" around the bullseye instead of in it.
Man, I wish I could type like I can talk then I could explain it more, and even better I enjoy showing shooters these results on paper.
Hope this helps, it's been a long day..
If anyone is interested we are shooting groups at a mile tomorrow at TVP.
Sir,
A custom rifle (most) of the time is as true as true can get with the current technology we have.
This being the case along with the ammo being (tuned) to the rifle will allow the shooter a better chance of long range accuracy as the bullet goes transonic.
When bullets are spun on Juenke or concentricity gauge and seated with a in-line bullet seater they are going to be MUCH more stable when they go transonic. Most rifles and loads are doomed from time they exit the muzzle because it is not coming out true...or perfectly straight.
Following precision reloading technics and and shooting custom rifles wil always give better results.
Now, for the good news. I have tuned 100% factory rifles to where they shot sub MOA out to 600 and they will perform (through) the transonic realm "most" of the time.
Bullets that pass through the transonic "realm" are effected much more if their flight is not stable from the get go..they are wobbly and as they slow down they look like a foot ball that has just been thrown by a 5 year old girl...that's why the dont make it to the target and if they do it's sideways thru the paper.
Example...this is why a factory rifle does not stand a chance in a 3 target agg against a custom rifle with tuned loads at 1000 yards.
Groups are 50% smaller most of the time. Why???????
Because the rifle is true and the ammo is true as well as tuned.
Tuning is not enough..it's the whole package and if a bullet does not exit the muzzle perfectly straight then your groups OPEN up big time.
Your groups get bigger and yours scores drop..because your "shooting" around the bullseye instead of in it.
Man, I wish I could type like I can talk then I could explain it more, and even better I enjoy showing shooters these results on paper.
Hope this helps, it's been a long day..
If anyone is interested we are shooting groups at a mile tomorrow at TVP.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Sir,
A .300 RUM will shoot with accuracy. Some much better than others.
I train dozens of older gents a year for hunting trips.
A few of them have .300 RUMS and after running quality factory ammo through they will do just fine as a hunting rifle. Some have shot well under .5 MOA but most wont come close.
A Berger 185 is a great bullet for the RUM...shoots flat and hits hard. For hunting at realistic distances this is a good choice for fast flat trajectories when your not sure of the distance of the critter. The Berger 210 would be my next choice if going past 700 yards.
Try 210 FED instead of 215 if your getting vertical. It seemed to help a time or two here.
Good luck!
Sir,
A .300 RUM will shoot with accuracy. Some much better than others.
I train dozens of older gents a year for hunting trips.
A few of them have .300 RUMS and after running quality factory ammo through they will do just fine as a hunting rifle. Some have shot well under .5 MOA but most wont come close.
A Berger 185 is a great bullet for the RUM...shoots flat and hits hard. For hunting at realistic distances this is a good choice for fast flat trajectories when your not sure of the distance of the critter. The Berger 210 would be my next choice if going past 700 yards.
Try 210 FED instead of 215 if your getting vertical. It seemed to help a time or two here.
Good luck!
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
A quick question to the Op. Why not check out the 300 Win Mag ? There are quite a few shooters here that shoot out passed even 2000 yards and do really well with them. I personally haven't taken out my 300 Win Mag for LR shooting. But I know that they are really capable of going LR. Plus the barrel life is a bit better than the 300 RUM.
Aron-
A quick question to the Op. Why not check out the 300 Win Mag ? There are quite a few shooters here that shoot out passed even 2000 yards and do really well with them. I personally haven't taken out my 300 Win Mag for LR shooting. But I know that they are really capable of going LR. Plus the barrel life is a bit better than the 300 RUM.
Aron-
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Tom,
I do not work with bullets that are capable of engaging rifling off-axis, but I will go on the assumption that your experience has found a borderline condition with jacketed bullets, mild enough to reach transonic with reasonable accuracy, that goes to heck from buffeting between 1,200-800 fps.
While I certainly like the equipment, and ammunition, refined to the degree possible, it seems that the most direct way to address a problem of marginal stability is to increase the twist rate... even assuming carefully aligned cartridges.
Wouldn't you agree, given that air density could tip the scale notwithstanding your best efforts at truing, and tuning?
Tom,
I do not work with bullets that are capable of engaging rifling off-axis, but I will go on the assumption that your experience has found a borderline condition with jacketed bullets, mild enough to reach transonic with reasonable accuracy, that goes to heck from buffeting between 1,200-800 fps.
While I certainly like the equipment, and ammunition, refined to the degree possible, it seems that the most direct way to address a problem of marginal stability is to increase the twist rate... even assuming carefully aligned cartridges.
Wouldn't you agree, given that air density could tip the scale notwithstanding your best efforts at truing, and tuning?
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Follow up question for teh OP. What kind of 1,000 yard match are you talking about? BR - where a muzzle break can be used, or HighPower, Full bore, or F-Class where no muzzle break can be used?
I can swallow a bunch of recoil over the course of a day at teh range, and have done so for a few years now shooting a variety of cartridges. Over the course of a 70-75 round day (done in 24-25 round relays in less than 30 minutes)... I suspect a 300 RUM pushing a 230 grain pill balls to the wall is a LOT more recoil than I would want to endure without a muzzle break (even with a 21+ pound rifle).
Jeffvn
Follow up question for teh OP. What kind of 1,000 yard match are you talking about? BR - where a muzzle break can be used, or HighPower, Full bore, or F-Class where no muzzle break can be used?
I can swallow a bunch of recoil over the course of a day at teh range, and have done so for a few years now shooting a variety of cartridges. Over the course of a 70-75 round day (done in 24-25 round relays in less than 30 minutes)... I suspect a 300 RUM pushing a 230 grain pill balls to the wall is a LOT more recoil than I would want to endure without a muzzle break (even with a 21+ pound rifle).
Jeffvn
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
A few years back, I switched to a 210M in my RUM during load development with a 190 bullet. The "click...I wonder what the...BOOM" led me straight back to the magnum primers. It was too cold out (probably around freezing) and I could deal with the vertical more than I could the hangfires.
While not a true "match" rifle, the 32" Kreiger barrelled match chambered RUM of my buddy, shot the 240's over 3000 fps with a bunch of H1000 into itty bitty groups on steel at 425. Some of those groups would fit under a half dollar.
The RUM wasn't designed with the match shooter in mind. While it may be accurate, there are cartridges out there designed from the ground up to be a match round.
A few years back, I switched to a 210M in my RUM during load development with a 190 bullet. The "click...I wonder what the...BOOM" led me straight back to the magnum primers. It was too cold out (probably around freezing) and I could deal with the vertical more than I could the hangfires.
While not a true "match" rifle, the 32" Kreiger barrelled match chambered RUM of my buddy, shot the 240's over 3000 fps with a bunch of H1000 into itty bitty groups on steel at 425. Some of those groups would fit under a half dollar.
The RUM wasn't designed with the match shooter in mind. While it may be accurate, there are cartridges out there designed from the ground up to be a match round.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Using a custom .300 RUM (the rifle is based on a Remington 700 action, and weighs about 18 pounds), I have put 5 shots into 1.25" (not MOA) at 600 yards. While I agree that the round was not built from the beginning as a match round, it seems it can do the job, if wanted.
Using a custom .300 RUM (the rifle is based on a Remington 700 action, and weighs about 18 pounds), I have put 5 shots into 1.25" (not MOA) at 600 yards. While I agree that the round was not built from the beginning as a match round, it seems it can do the job, if wanted.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
That's nice to know that they are good and accurate.it makes me feel better about staying with my build.it will have a, Krieger Rem-varment at 28"1-10 twist
Trued Rem action with sako extractor
Tubbs recoil lug double pinned
Wyatts extended mag box
Jewell hvr triger set at 1 1/2 lbs
Kmw tactical bolt knob
Manners-mcs T5A stock
Kampfeld muzzle brake or a Badger thruster brake
and a solid brake
Bolt fluted-- spiral
Thinking about skip fluting barrel
Piller bedded
Maybe cerakoteing it
That's nice to know that they are good and accurate.it makes me feel better about staying with my build.it will have a, Krieger Rem-varment at 28"1-10 twist
Trued Rem action with sako extractor
Tubbs recoil lug double pinned
Wyatts extended mag box
Jewell hvr triger set at 1 1/2 lbs
Kmw tactical bolt knob
Manners-mcs T5A stock
Kampfeld muzzle brake or a Badger thruster brake
and a solid brake
Bolt fluted-- spiral
Thinking about skip fluting barrel
Piller bedded
Maybe cerakoteing it
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
ffl...
How many grains of powder were you running? Yes, hangfires are bad news but I honestly never experienced any in my loads with the 210's and I did a two year test year round on purpose.
When in doubt go with the FED215's.
Although the wrong head space can be the main cause of hangfires and not enough powder ratio.
I chased the world record for 5 years and the year before I caught I switched to 210's and my groups got smaller and smaller with less than 1 inch of vertical at 1000 yards. Now, I'm not saying the 215's didn't work...shot several 3"-4" groups at 1000 yards...but the when I switched over to 210's and the groups shrank to 2"-3" consistantly with several of the groups with 3-4 bullets within one inch of each other.
ffl,
I apologize..I should have touched on the possibilty of a hang fire in ceratin situations and your correct about the cold weather issue.
This can be an issue if one or more varibles are not correct when the loading of the cartridge. By no means do I mean you did something wrong. Just some cartridges burn rates are more prone to cause this reaction. I think it's most possible in the longer and thinner cartridges. This is something I would be interested in knowing for fact.
I always tell shooters NEVER open the bolt if it clicks and there is no BOOM!!!! Always wait 30 seconds at least...it can be fatal if you don't.
Good call on the hangfire warning.
ffl...
How many grains of powder were you running? Yes, hangfires are bad news but I honestly never experienced any in my loads with the 210's and I did a two year test year round on purpose.
When in doubt go with the FED215's.
Although the wrong head space can be the main cause of hangfires and not enough powder ratio.
I chased the world record for 5 years and the year before I caught I switched to 210's and my groups got smaller and smaller with less than 1 inch of vertical at 1000 yards. Now, I'm not saying the 215's didn't work...shot several 3"-4" groups at 1000 yards...but the when I switched over to 210's and the groups shrank to 2"-3" consistantly with several of the groups with 3-4 bullets within one inch of each other.
ffl,
I apologize..I should have touched on the possibilty of a hang fire in ceratin situations and your correct about the cold weather issue.
This can be an issue if one or more varibles are not correct when the loading of the cartridge. By no means do I mean you did something wrong. Just some cartridges burn rates are more prone to cause this reaction. I think it's most possible in the longer and thinner cartridges. This is something I would be interested in knowing for fact.
I always tell shooters NEVER open the bolt if it clicks and there is no BOOM!!!! Always wait 30 seconds at least...it can be fatal if you don't.
Good call on the hangfire warning.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Tom you were using 210 in your Hulk? I know you defiantly know what your doing what how did you figure that a regular large rifle primer would work with a magnum cartridge such as the hulk?
Tom you were using 210 in your Hulk? I know you defiantly know what your doing what how did you figure that a regular large rifle primer would work with a magnum cartridge such as the hulk?
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
TimResin,
It not only worked...it produced the smallest and most consistant groups when I switched to them. I never had any hangfires or issues.
The 215's worked well too and shot many world class groups and scores but I thought hey..maybe this will work...and it did.
I use anywhere from 84 to 90 grains of H-1000 and or Retumbo in these loads using 185 Bergers to 240 SMK's.
After a few thousand rounds the tests proves it works.
In no way am I saying the 215 primers wont perform..they do.
I just wanted to try something different and it worked.
As for a safety issues I guess it could be in certain cartridges.
Always consult a reloading manual or better yet ask several shooters with EXPERIENCE before you try anything out of the box.
TimResin,
It not only worked...it produced the smallest and most consistant groups when I switched to them. I never had any hangfires or issues.
The 215's worked well too and shot many world class groups and scores but I thought hey..maybe this will work...and it did.
I use anywhere from 84 to 90 grains of H-1000 and or Retumbo in these loads using 185 Bergers to 240 SMK's.
After a few thousand rounds the tests proves it works.
In no way am I saying the 215 primers wont perform..they do.
I just wanted to try something different and it worked.
As for a safety issues I guess it could be in certain cartridges.
Always consult a reloading manual or better yet ask several shooters with EXPERIENCE before you try anything out of the box.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
What about a .338 Lapua? It has a longer powder column though.
What about a .338 Lapua? It has a longer powder column though.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
I use the 215M for the .338 LM. I run 93-94 grains of H-1000 and or Retumbo.
The Hulk is a full .5" shorter than the .338 LM.
I use the 215M for the .338 LM. I run 93-94 grains of H-1000 and or Retumbo.
The Hulk is a full .5" shorter than the .338 LM.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
300 RUM
27 inch Krieger Light Varmit 1:10 twist
A5 Stock
Jewell trigger
700 action
Berger 210s
Fed 215s
Hornady Brass
3.80 overall length
91 grains of RL25
3160 FPS
Shoots 4 inch 5 shot groups at 1000
.1s at 100
Gun shoots like a dream and there is very little felt recoil. Sure it has some nice muzzle jump but I can shoot it all day long with no issues and have many a times.
I would have zero problem shooting this gun in comps other then it costing an arm and a leg to shoot and short barrel life
300 RUM
27 inch Krieger Light Varmit 1:10 twist
A5 Stock
Jewell trigger
700 action
Berger 210s
Fed 215s
Hornady Brass
3.80 overall length
91 grains of RL25
3160 FPS
Shoots 4 inch 5 shot groups at 1000
.1s at 100
Gun shoots like a dream and there is very little felt recoil. Sure it has some nice muzzle jump but I can shoot it all day long with no issues and have many a times.
I would have zero problem shooting this gun in comps other then it costing an arm and a leg to shoot and short barrel life
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Thats nice to know 25man hope mine shoots as good as yours.Do you have a brake on it and how much dose it weigh it mite give me a little bit of an idea of what mine mite weigh.you like the hornady brass better than the nosler brass a lot of people say that the nosler brass is best
Thats nice to know 25man hope mine shoots as good as yours.Do you have a brake on it and how much dose it weigh it mite give me a little bit of an idea of what mine mite weigh.you like the hornady brass better than the nosler brass a lot of people say that the nosler brass is best
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
I'm running rem brass on my 338 edge and have 11 loads on them. The web is starting to cause some difficulty when closing the bolt so, I think they're ready to scrap.
If you use rem brass, you'll need to weight sort them. Just figure on buying 200 pieces to start with. The primer pockets are pretty loose after 3 loadings as well but, they still hold a primer after 11 loads. I put a primer in and tap them hard on on my wood bench to make sure they stay in there.
I'm running rem brass on my 338 edge and have 11 loads on them. The web is starting to cause some difficulty when closing the bolt so, I think they're ready to scrap.
If you use rem brass, you'll need to weight sort them. Just figure on buying 200 pieces to start with. The primer pockets are pretty loose after 3 loadings as well but, they still hold a primer after 11 loads. I put a primer in and tap them hard on on my wood bench to make sure they stay in there.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rottenron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats nice to know 25man hope mine shoots as good as yours.Do you have a brake on it and how much dose it weigh it mite give me a little bit of an idea of what mine mite weigh.you like the hornady brass better than the nosler brass a lot of people say that the nosler brass is best </div></div>
My bad...it is Nosler brass I am using! I was relaoding 140 Amax for the 260 so had Hornady on the mind.
I do have a break done by Kampfeld and the gun weighs just over 17 pound with bi-pod and sling. really is a dream to shoot my dad is 61 years old and weighs 138 pounds and this is his favorite gun to shoot...he put forty rounds down it last time we went out and was laughing becuase of how smooth it shoots with the way its setup.
If i can figure out how to pust a picture I will or send me your email and I will forward you some pics.
William Roscoe of LA Percision Rifles built it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rottenron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats nice to know 25man hope mine shoots as good as yours.Do you have a brake on it and how much dose it weigh it mite give me a little bit of an idea of what mine mite weigh.you like the hornady brass better than the nosler brass a lot of people say that the nosler brass is best </div></div>
My bad...it is Nosler brass I am using! I was relaoding 140 Amax for the 260 so had Hornady on the mind.
I do have a break done by Kampfeld and the gun weighs just over 17 pound with bi-pod and sling. really is a dream to shoot my dad is 61 years old and weighs 138 pounds and this is his favorite gun to shoot...he put forty rounds down it last time we went out and was laughing becuase of how smooth it shoots with the way its setup.
If i can figure out how to pust a picture I will or send me your email and I will forward you some pics.
William Roscoe of LA Percision Rifles built it.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
25man thats real good to know because William Roscoe is the one how is building my rifle.I would really like to see yours. now i am going to really go nuts waiting for mine
Thanks alot 25man cant wait to see it.
25man thats real good to know because William Roscoe is the one how is building my rifle.I would really like to see yours. now i am going to really go nuts waiting for mine
Thanks alot 25man cant wait to see it.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rottenron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I,ave talked to the guy that you got the rifle from. And that is a sweat looking rifle. </div></div>
Small world! yes it si a very sweet gun and extremely accurate...Roy is a hell of a guy to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rottenron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I,ave talked to the guy that you got the rifle from. And that is a sweat looking rifle. </div></div>
Small world! yes it si a very sweet gun and extremely accurate...Roy is a hell of a guy to.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Tom, If I can recall correctly, I was using 96 gr. of Retumbo and a 190 Wildcat ULD RBBT at 3.600". I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't think that headspace was the major contributor of the hang fires, as it was immediately resolved with a change to the 215M.
I can't say if the 210M rounds shot well at all, as I am not man enough to be able shoot well while experiencing more than a couple of hang fires in a row. The whole reason I tried them was to eliminate some vertical. I haven't had it happen before or since. I now remember ending up using the 9 1/2M. It grouped better, but I don't remember about the vertical, or ES/ SD numbers.
Tom, If I can recall correctly, I was using 96 gr. of Retumbo and a 190 Wildcat ULD RBBT at 3.600". I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't think that headspace was the major contributor of the hang fires, as it was immediately resolved with a change to the 215M.
I can't say if the 210M rounds shot well at all, as I am not man enough to be able shoot well while experiencing more than a couple of hang fires in a row. The whole reason I tried them was to eliminate some vertical. I haven't had it happen before or since. I now remember ending up using the 9 1/2M. It grouped better, but I don't remember about the vertical, or ES/ SD numbers.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
I've used the 300 RUM for the last few years as a long range hunting rifle. It's set up with a 30" Rock bbl (1-11.27 tw), Nesika single shot action in a McMillan HTG stock with adjustable comb. I've pretty much stuck with 200gr Nosler Accubonds and even with a lower BC than the VLD and match bullets it performs very well to 1000 and a bit beyond. Bullet peformance is very good on both elk and deer from my limited kills so far. Two elk at 850 and 856yds and a mule deer at 1180 last year. I had the rifle set up in 338 Edge previously and so far like the 300 better, recoil is less and at 3250fps with the 200 Accubond, trajectory is flatter and wind drift isn't much more than the 300 MK's.
I've used the 300 RUM for the last few years as a long range hunting rifle. It's set up with a 30" Rock bbl (1-11.27 tw), Nesika single shot action in a McMillan HTG stock with adjustable comb. I've pretty much stuck with 200gr Nosler Accubonds and even with a lower BC than the VLD and match bullets it performs very well to 1000 and a bit beyond. Bullet peformance is very good on both elk and deer from my limited kills so far. Two elk at 850 and 856yds and a mule deer at 1180 last year. I had the rifle set up in 338 Edge previously and so far like the 300 better, recoil is less and at 3250fps with the 200 Accubond, trajectory is flatter and wind drift isn't much more than the 300 MK's.
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
I am having a 1-10 tw on mine the 1-11.27tw that's a slower tw right is that better for longer distance.or dose it stable the bullet better.what would be the difference that that would make.
thanks msalm its nice to here from guys that shoot the 300 RUM
if you have any pic of your rifle id like to see them
I am having a 1-10 tw on mine the 1-11.27tw that's a slower tw right is that better for longer distance.or dose it stable the bullet better.what would be the difference that that would make.
thanks msalm its nice to here from guys that shoot the 300 RUM
if you have any pic of your rifle id like to see them
Re: 300 RUM why aren't they used in 1000 yd cop
Typically the faster the twist the better it stablelizes the heavier bullet...slower twist are best used with the lighter bullets... .27 of a twist not sure that makes any difference at all haha.
Typically the faster the twist the better it stablelizes the heavier bullet...slower twist are best used with the lighter bullets... .27 of a twist not sure that makes any difference at all haha.
