300 win mag? .338 lapua? ... Bergara?

[isaacspoon]

Hey everyone, i understand there are hundreds of threads out there regarding each of these rounds listed above. I would like the opinion of those when in direct comparison with a few stipulations. There are several parts to my post here so hang in there and hope to keep everyone interested and engaged in all topics.

I am breaching into the long range game and just can't seem to get enough of it. I have a 224 valkyrie, 6mm creedmoor, and now looking at reaching out a little farther to accurately AND consistently be able to hit a target 1700-2000yards. From what I have read, the 300wm and .338L seem to have very close ballistics to one another. .338 offers higher BC on their projectiles but the 300wm offers a flatter trajectory while still offering a fairly high BC selection on their projectiles. While i do not see myself taking down large game at 2000yd any time soon, am I safe to assume that the major difference between the two cartridges is the stopping power at distance (relatively speaking)?

Am I correct in thinking that really the only other MAJOR difference between the two cartridges is the cost of ammo & reloading supplies? All things considered, the difference between the two comes down to stopping power at distance and cost of ammo between. (correct me if i am wrong)

While i was rooting for the .338 to get my vote at the start of my journey to gain knowlege on the ballistics, after researching the cartridges, it seems like i should go with a 300wm becasue 1) more companies offer firearms chambered in 300wm, and 2) ammo availability and cost.

Lastly, I do not have extremely deep pockets but am looking for the best value/accuracy ratio. i do not mind spending a little extra money to get a superior product but I am a value chaser. (i said value not budget) if i can save $1000 to get a rifle that shoots .5moa vs a .35moa, I am all over that deal. Am i safe in deciding to go after a bergara or savage chambered in 300wm or are there other rifles that offer quality products and manufacture results that "should not" be created from a production rifle? Again, please correct me if i am wrong, but i am looking for reasonable responses backed by some sort of logic or thought process... not just a simple brand loyalty answer that is not based on any facts or logic.


My rough budget for the rifle alone is up to 2k ( but would like to see what options are offered around $1k if the accuracy is still fairly decent). I currently have a vortex razor gen2 4.5-27 on my 6mm creedmoor I would most likely swap onto this rifle. I plan to shoot every few weeks at a 2k yd range near me. And i realistically do not think i will ever shoot game passed 600 yards, however my parents own some land that I may occasionally hunt elk on. Elk will probably be the largest game i shoot, but want to focus more-so on target/steel shooting.

Thanks in advance and i look forward to reading your responses.

 

[PBWalsh]

Rifles:

Entry Level -
Begara
Howa 1500 Barreled Action + KRG Bravo (should have a LA out soon enough)

Tier 1 Level -
Sako TRG
AXMC
Used AIAW
Cadex
DT SRS
ARC/Bighorn/etc custom

For what you describe, I’d lean towards a 300WM based on ammo cost alone. Its got great ballistics (especially with a WTC Flatline) and will do everything you are wanting to do. Will a 338LM have more kinetic energy, sure will. Steel is already dead though. Both calibers will harvest game further than 99.999% of shooters have any business taking game.

I’m a 300WM fan, but I can’t justify buying one being in Alabama. 338LM is an awesome round, but it sounds like the 300WM may suit your needs better.

A hard set budget will help you get a more targeted answer. Also, how often do you plan on shooting this rifle? How often do you realistically plan on shooting 1500+ yards?

Answers to those three questions will greatly help the community here help you to getting into what would best fit your situation.

 

[isaacspoon]

Rifles:
Answers to those three questions will greatly help the community here help you to getting into what would best fit your situation.

Edited original post! thank you for the response! Yes i agree for my uses, 300wm fits the bill much better. there is a 2000yd range about an hour away from me. I plan to make much more frequent visits out there as I get more and more involved with the sport.

 

[PBWalsh]

Thats really nice you have access to such range, thats great. Take my words with light salt, never even shot a magnum. Just trying to look at your question from a data/logical standpoint.

Re-read your post and did not find a budget listed, just that you are a “value chaser”. I totally understand value (and why I grit my teeth not to buy a Howa 1500 barreled action and instead save for an AIAT).

Me? If I am buying a firearm for hard use and consider it a “lifetime” or “once in a lifetime” firearm (such as an AI), I throw the value equation out of the window and get what I want. Now for a range toy, I’d be much more considerate of value.

Don’t know your financial situation or goals thereof, but just something to think about. In other words, what will this rifle be FOR YOU.

Oh, run a 180/198 grain WTC Flatline at say... 2850 - 2900 FPS on JBM with your atmospherics and compare it against whatever .338 loading you fancy for a more scientific data point. Then compare a “typical” 300WM bullet (Hornady 225 ELD-M for example). The 338LM will have better ballistics bullet for bullet, but you must wager in the cost per shot in the equation as well. Only you can decide if the improved performance is worth it. Might as well also consider the 300 Norma Magnum if you’re looking at the 338LM.

My suggestion if you went with a 300WM and custom barrel would be a Bartlien Gain Twist, Heavy Palma, 26” - 30”, with a 1-10”-8” twist rate (or a 1-9”). It’d allow you to use a variety of jacketed projectiles and also use a solid projectile like the Flatlines to their full potential BC. A factory barrel will most likely be a 1-10”. If this is the case, you should be able to run the mentioned Hornady bullets and the 180 grain Flatline with no issues.

One more thing, drop down in the reloading section and see what average verlocitys folks are getting with each calibers and run some of those numbers through JBM. It’ll give you a very good approximatrion of what you’ll see at your locale.

 

[isaacspoon]

Re-read your post and did not find a budget listed, just that you are a “value chaser”..

I must not have hit save on my first attempt at editing my original post, but had to go back and edit it again. it should be there now at the bottom of the original post

 

[doctordoctor]

I'm a DT srs fan. Buy one chassis. Buy one scope. Spend money on barrels. That's pretty budget minded if you ask me.

As far as caliber goes... You can't go wrong with either one. If it were me I'd go 300WM. My brother has a 338 Norma and loves it. So that's another option

 

[PBWalsh]

2k can buy you a nice rifle. I’d specifically look at a
- Howa 1500 barreled action and throw it in a stock/chassis (cheapest option)
- Whatever Bergara you like (not super knowledgeable here)
- Tikka T3x may work, might be single loading though as those are a short long action if I understand correctly.
- PVA Barreled Action (ARC Nucleus or Bighorn TL3) ($1,500) in a KRG Bravo ($350), Trigger ($200-$350)

The PVA build would be a bit over budget, but well worth it over thw two other mentioned rifles. Also, look on the PX here for a used rifle. There are some great deals in there.

 

[isaacspoon]

I'm a DT srs fan. Buy one chassis. Buy one scope. Spend money on barrels. That's pretty budget minded if you ask me.

i have not looked into DT srs but definitely will!

 

[isaacspoon]

look on the PX here for a used rifle. There are some great deals in there.

Yea I think if i can get a much higher quality used rifle on here than a new lower quality, im all over that. realistically I want to try and be around $1000-$1300 but i wouldnt be upset if I needed to spend $2k on something good (my wife would be though hahaha)

 

[PBWalsh]

Your realistic price begs for a Howa/Tikka/Bergara. Save a few more hundred and get your wife something or go all out on a fancy date night for her. Then you’ll have a super nice rifle and a happy wife.

That’s called winning at life.

 

[GBMaryland]

A 300WM with a faster rate of twist barrel (~10:1) and Flatline bullets will reach out pretty far (heavier bullets).

Franky, I’m kinda suprised your not doing somethung like a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5CM, with Warner Flatline bullets. Frank has a video on this and his nailing stuff at a mile with 8mils of drop.

Of course, you’re loading your own... but you’ll likely be doing that anyway.

I have a TRG-42 in 300wm and its my go to distance rifle. It was also way more expensive than 2k$. Most of my shooting distances can be accomplished with a 260 or 6.5CM using more advanced bullets available today, and much more cost effectively.

 

[isaacspoon]

Franky, I’m kinda suprised your not doing somethung like a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5CM, with Warner Flatline bullets. Frank has a video on this and his nailing stuff at a mile with 8mils of drop.

My 6mm creedmoor is actually a ruger precision rifle. A local shop was having a sale recently on a gen 2 6mmC for $699 and couldnt pass it up. I believe they offer a $779 deal online (grabagun) if anyone is interested. In my opinion the 6mm creedmoor is a superior round to the 6.5. only downfall is barrel life

 

[GBMaryland]

My 65CM bolt gun is a SSG 3000, so I just order barrels a few at a time. 3 screws and you get a new barrel.

Maybe I’ll pick up a 6CM and see how it does!

 

[TigernLionGSP]

Rifles:

Entry Level -
Begara
Howa 1500 Barreled Action + KRG Bravo (should have a LA out soon enough)

Tier 1 Level -
Sako TRG
AXMC
Used AIAW
Cadex
DT SRS
ARC/Bighorn/etc custom

For what you describe, I’d lean towards a 300WM based on ammo cost alone. Its got great ballistics (especially with a WTC Flatline) and will do everything you are wanting to do. Will a 338LM have more kinetic energy, sure will. Steel is already dead though. Both calibers will harvest game further than 99.999% of shooters have any business taking game.

I’m a 300WM fan, but I can’t justify buying one being in Alabama. 338LM is an awesome round, but it sounds like the 300WM may suit your needs better.

A hard set budget will help you get a more targeted answer. Also, how often do you plan on shooting this rifle? How often do you realistically plan on shooting 1500+ yards?

Answers to those three questions will greatly help the community here help you to getting into what would best fit your situation.

MDT for a HOWA LA

 

[m6z]

A Bergara or a Remington 5R look like good budget options at less than $1k, but will the accuracy be there with factory ammo?

 

[isaacspoon]

im not necessarily worried entirely on the cheapest "budget" option, im really more worried about value. i know there are quite a few option in the 1k-2k price range, i just want the best overall gun per dollar spent rather than the cheapst gun available that can shoot either cartridge.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Stocky's sells the OEM chassis that comes on the Howa HCR, available for all 3 action lengths. 500 bucks, then you add the buffer tube and stock you want. Could be another option.

 

[kimberfan]

Buy a seekins 40% off cert and get a seekins havak in 300wm, it will come out to 1197$ + cert cost, you won’t beat it for that price.

 

[Primus]

This is going to be my next LR hunting rifle, if it ever comes in stock.

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...00-win-mag-prod119000.aspx?avs|Make_3=Bergara

 

[isaacspoon]

This is going to be my next LR hunting rifle, if it ever comes in stock.

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/bolt-action/b14-hmr-300-win-mag-prod119000.aspx?avs|Make_3=Bergara

I am kind of partial to bergara. If i hadn't found a great deal on the 6mm creedmoor rpr, I would own a bergara LRP in 6mmCM right now. I honestly think i will most likely start out with a bergara b-14 HMR in 300wm as well.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

im not necessarily worried entirely on the cheapest "budget" option, im really more worried about value. i know there are quite a few option in the 1k-2k price range, i just want the best overall gun per dollar spent rather than the cheapst gun available that can shoot either cartridge.

2k yard range access? Lucky you.

How much of the time will this rifle be used at 1,500+, and not just on bluebird days?

If it was me, I would pursue something out of the For Sale Section. I’d focus on the best deal I could make on a quality action and stock that I thought was comfortable, and which allowed me to adjust at least the comb height and LOP; I’d have no problem on a high round count barrel if the deal was right too. I know I’d end up with a better stick in the end than anything new for $2k or less.

 

[houndog]

My 65CM bolt gun is a SSG 3000, so I just order barrels a few at a time. 3 screws and you get a new barrel.

Maybe I’ll pick up a 6CM and see how it does!

Not to hijack this thread, or show my ignorance, but I own a SSG3000, which I love. I didn't realize barrel swaps were so easy. Is this the SSG mfg in New Hampshire, or the older one imported from Germany? Also, what barrels work? I would love to swap out my original .308 barrel with a 6.5CM.

 

[spaniel]

If you have access to a 2000yd range and will shoot past 1700 regularly, performance wise, there is a significant difference between the two in favor of the 338. You will simply hit a lot more frequently, not that the 300 won't get the bullet out there.

That said, if you are even worried about your budget, do the 300. They 338 is an expensive beast to feed, even handloading.

 

[isaacspoon]

If you have access to a 2000yd range and will shoot past 1700 regularly, performance wise, there is a significant difference between the two in favor of the 338. You will simply hit a lot more frequently, not that the 300 won't get the bullet out there.

That said, if you are even worried about your budget, do the 300. They 338 is an expensive beast to feed, even handloading.

I think my 6mm creedmoor rpr could handle 1500 and even 1760 with the right hand load... i am really wanting something a little stonger and more accurate to be able to reach out past that range consistently. i understand it might be pricey, but I really really am hoping i can figure out a way to purchase a 338 lapua and have it be the wiser choice. i wont be upset with a 300wm but idk something about the 338L really draws me in

 

[m6z]

Do you plan on suppressing the rifle? That's one of the reasons I'll probably stick to a .30 cal if I decide to do a magnum build. Of course a suppressed 338 would be even cooler.. I'd just have to buy another suppressor.

 

[Primus]

You could build a titanium can for a fraction of what you would buy one for and it will have every bit the performance.

 

[isaacspoon]

Do you plan on suppressing the rifle? That's one of the reasons I'll probably stick to a .30 cal if I decide to do a magnum build. Of course a suppressed 338 would be even cooler.. I'd just have to buy another suppressor.

while i like the idea of owning suppressors, I do not own any yet, and probably wouldn't buy one in the near future. but I really have always wanted to start a trust so I am able to start purchasing them.

You could build a titanium can for a fraction of what you would buy one for and it will have every bit the performance.

Any instructional links on how to do this?

 

[Primus]

Google is your friend there is a ton of info out there.

 

[isaacspoon]

Google is your friend there is a ton of info out there.

being that you suggested the idea, i figured you'd have some good and accurate info or links for me.

 

[Crang]

Im at the same point you are. Spent tonight reading up on building a 7mm-300WM. Kind of digging the idea. Just found a 1 mile range instead of my regular 1K so eyeballing my Weatherby thinking of possibilities....

 

[isaacspoon]

Im at the same point you are. Spent tonight reading up on building a 7mm-300WM. Kind of digging the idea. Just found a 1 mile range instead of my regular 1K so eyeballing my Weatherby thinking of possibilities....

exactly... the guns i have can hit at those distances, but i am really wanting something i can work up a load for, and hit consistently at that distance (as long as my dope is correct)

 

[skinnj1]

For frequent 2000 yrd shooting, get a lapua. Optics planet still has mlr 700 barreled actions for 900ish, put it in a grayboe with dbm or a krg bravo or an element chassis and you are under 1600. Is it the "best" 338 lapua , no. Is it the cheapest new lapua you can find, probably... otherwise consider a 28 nosler build or a 338 rum or 338 edge or 300 rum build."Standard"magnum actions, budget deals on stocks and prefit barrels with a bugnut make them possible on your realistic budget.

As far as the can , you can form 1 a Ti can cheap if you have a lathe and ebay material drops, if you dont, buying a "solvent trap" tube and all the storage cups, and end caps will push half the price of a commercial can, will have no warranty or resale or RD done on the front end for optimizing the design

 

[isaacspoon]

Optics planet still has mlr 700 barreled actions for 900ish

Do you have a link or an exact search i can do on optics planet for the action? i poked around but i wasnt able to find the barreled mlr action you are talking about

 

[CRT2]

Do you have a link or an exact search i can do on optics planet for the action? i poked around but i wasnt able to find the barreled mlr action you are talking about

Might be this: http://www.scopelist.com/4000006-Remington-700P-MLR-338-Lapua-Mag-Barreled-Action.aspx

 

[jetmd]

isaacspoon:

https://www.silencershop.com/how-to-buy-a-silencer

about as easy as it gets.

 

[roamin]

338LM and 300 Norma are awsome calibers but when you run ballistics on JBM of a 300wm running 230gr VLD's or 225gr ELD's and realize that your getting 85%-90% of the performance at 50% of the cost it's hard to argue with the value. My 24" 5R was getting 2750fps from ABM's factory 230gr VLD load before Berger took over ABM Munitions now the ammo is unobtainium. The 5R is not the only option but it's a good option Eurooptic has 5r barreled actions available periodically that come with an AX AICS for a good price. My rifle shoots well it is not a one hole rifle but with factory ABM, ELD-X, & FGMM is averaging 0.6 MOA across the last 30 or so 3 round groups I've shot and it still wears the factory HS stock and had the terrible XMARK pro trigger in it for most of that time. Also 1/10 twist is on the light side for 30 cal 225 & 230gr rounds but it can be completely doable especially if you either shoot at some altitude or if you don't have the altitude you don't shoot in cold temps. I have some altitude so it's a non issue for me IIRC I'd to go shooting in less than 10° temps to run into a stability issue. Get the projectile OAL's for the 225 ELD's and 230gr VLD's and put your information into Berger's twist rate stability calculator and make sure the 300wm running a 1/10 would work for you. Plan on investing on a good brake as well. Which ever route you choose I'm sure you'll enjoy the rifle I love my 6.5cm to death but it's not as thrilling to fire as a Magnum.

 

[Primus]

For frequent 2000 yrd shooting, get a lapua. Optics planet still has mlr 700 barreled actions for 900ish, put it in a grayboe with dbm or a krg bravo or an element chassis and you are under 1600. Is it the "best" 338 lapua , no. Is it the cheapest new lapua you can find, probably... otherwise consider a 28 nosler build or a 338 rum or 338 edge or 300 rum build."Standard"magnum actions, budget deals on stocks and prefit barrels with a bugnut make them possible on your realistic budget.

As far as the can , you can form 1 a Ti can cheap if you have a lathe and ebay material drops, if you dont, buying a "solvent trap" tube and all the storage cups, and end caps will push half the price of a commercial can, will have no warranty or resale or RD done on the front end for optimizing the design

The 700 is a piss poor .338L host. The action is not robust enough and the bolt is way to thin to handle the pressure and is seriously thin in areas it shouldn't be. Its a recipe for disaster.

If you are going to do a .338L, use a real action. The margin of error for a reloader fucking up could cost him his life.

You are also completely wrong about the Cans. From off the shelf parts, not including a forming tool ($100) and a drill press ($80-~) and a carbine drill bit ($40 or so for a good tungsten carbide than can drill TI endcaps) you can build a can for about $150.

Tube is about $50, Each end cap is about $40, Freeze plugs are $.50 or so a piece so figure $5 total and enough TI spacer material is like $10-15 bucks.

Cost of tools gets spread out over the more cans you build. All full TI cans, with Stainless steel baffles and if you use something like the griffin comps, it acts as a first sacrificial baffle.

Think of it this way:

First Can costs you $500 +$200tax (you bought a nice drill press and carbide bits) (Large .308 TI can used on anything smaller
Second can costs you $150 + $200 tax (Dedicated 6.5 can)
Third Can costs you $150 +$200 Tax ( Dedicated 5.56 Can or another .308 that is shorter)
Fourth Costs you $100 +$200 Tax (SBR can)
Fifth Can costs you $150+ +$200Tax ( 9 mm Can)
Sixth Can costs you $150 + $2000 (.45 Can)
Seventh Can costs you $100 + $200 Tax (.22 Can)

Use 2000* engine header paint and it will be more durable than cerokote. RAW TI also looks badass when headed up like a crazy rainbow.

So for a grand total of $2700 you have 7 premium cans and all tax stamps paid for ($1400) in cost alone. This also paid for a nice drill press and some tooling as well as the ability to make more niche cans like .300B, .338, .50 ect. It will perform 98% as well as a proffesional designed, clipped, welded, cerokoted can.

Use griffin taper mount and you have one of the best lockup designs on the market and plentiful, cheap and a good selection of muzzle devices. Or buy threaded caps and do that instead.

7 similar quality commercial cans + tax stamps are going to cost you AT LEAST $5,000 plus $1400 in NFA Taxes , plus a much longer wait than a form 1. You shave about 100 days off using a Form 1 vs a Form 4, and you don't have to pay sales tax (Here in WA @ 8.4% that would be atleast $420 in sales tax, which would buy me another F1 can with tax stamp.

Its a no brainier and why suppressor manufactures are going out of business in mass. That difference in cost would buy you a John Hancock rifle or a custom build with premium parts alone.

 

[skinnj1]

I already stated that a 700 338 is not the best option but I find it funny that guys like primus bemoan a 700 /338 when Jimmy Sloan ( guy who developed 338 Norma, same case head , same pressure) has over 10,000 rounds of 338 Norma on a 700 rem....Once you cut a remmy style bolt face for a m16 or sako extractor , "three rings of steel" is out the window -same on a rem or clone action. Bolt nose rim thickness is the least advantage of a custom action , bigger diameter bolt (less flex ) and bigger thread tennons (hoop stress) are way bigger advantages as is the longer ejection port and better primary extraction (problem endemic to remingtons regardless of caliber)

Given sane loading practices, (338 lapua brass can hold well past 70ksi without big warning signs, remingtons should be kept at 65 ksi) it (r700 /.590 bolt face)works, many smiths dont like to for liability, most wont admit to it but many big name smiths have built 700 /338's without the sky falling- same for a lot of factory remmingtons., hell there is a Jerrod Joplin /APA "meatstick" in norma in the for sale forum now.Remingtons lawyers/engineers arent as risk adverse. Compare a 700 to a large shank savage (few worry about them) your bigger thread tennon is negated by a barrel nut, yes you do get longer lugs on the bolt but bolt shear isnt the failure mode for rifle actions in almost all catastrophic faliures. Is either as nice as a custom , nope never said so, do both do well in some ELR matches -yes.

As far as can the statement was cheap titanium cans. Yes diversified makes tubes for 50-100, endcaps are 40-80 each, if you are happy with freeze plugs ,rock on. From my point of view, they are the ones that fail the most often on the suppresor boards and spending 20 bucks more (each)on 5-10 for baffles from diversified, totality industries et al is smart when you have a lifetime purchase that YOU CANT REPAIR yourself if you cant make your own. There are multiple SOT's who offer recoring services for guys with freeze plugs that failed for a reason.

 

[Primus]

Anecdotal experience is just that.

You can bang a chick with AIDS and not get it. It doesn't mean it would be wise to advise others , "go for it, I did it and didn't get the bug"

 

[m6z]

I recently bought one of the Q Full Nelson suppressors for $450. Deals are out there if you look. Sometimes it pays to shop local.

 

[az _desert]

I found some good info. ( Following )