i'm trying to wrap my head around some specifics for the rifle i will eventually build. as far as the win mag vs the wsm for distances between 1000-1800, is there considerable difference that would warrant one over the other? i know that typically the wsm seems to get around 100 fps less with the bigger bullets. i plan on using 190-215 gr with the gun. i see some pros to the wsm just as far as reloading but it is a slight compromise in velocity from what i've seen. any thoughts?
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300 win mag vs 300 wsm
- Thread starter manscout
- Start date
The 300 WM will work out to 1800 just fine, even with a 208 Eld-m. With a 26" barrel @3.6"OAL and H-1000 you should easily be in the 2900-3050fps range. Ditto with same and Berger 215 hybrid. The WSM is a great hunting rifle and will keep up with the WM up to 190 grain bullets. The 300 Norma has its down sides. 1 recoil, 2 cost of brass, 3 brass life, 4 amount of powder burned/shot. 5 Barrel life (waaay more powder and pressure burning the throat). Add to these the recent ELR match results held at out to 2000 yards out west, and the 300WM held its own just fine vs the 300 Norma. I would only build a 300 Norma if I was only after the 2 mile shot and then only if I already owned a 338 LM. But that's just me. YMMV.
He's right! I only say 230 berger because the 230 that has the highest G7 BC. You can shoot it out of a 300 WM. I think a 215 does work better in the WM. As far as velocity goes. I Didn't know you where handicaped by the action you have? I say go big or go home? I would choose 300 Norma Magnum is this case. The king of .30 cal. This maybe an exaggeration on my part. I don't know all, see all and tell all? I'm only talking out of my ass because i read reports by Frank(LowLight) stating how well it preformed on a ELR competition against 338 Lapua and bigger.
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I really appreciate the info here. thanks. so with wsm, anything above the 190's i'm guessing we're just losing velocity and bc accordingly. question is, how much am i losing?
i'm dealing with either rebarreling a short action which is the reason behind the wsm, or going with a tikka i have "access" to which doesn't really work so well with normal long action so it's iffy. 3rd option is to find some old savage long action. i guess norma would be do able but my main priority is getting to use the rifle with the money available right now instead of going with perhaps the absolute best option for the task.
WSM is being used by some fclass shooters, they want to hit a 10" circle at 1000 yds for max points. So it must not be losing much. There maybe some info for you on accurateshooter
I run 190smk in my WSM. But check these out. Very high BC and reports are they live up to it.
https://warner-tool.com/collections/flat-line-projectiles
https://warner-tool.com/collections/flat-line-projectiles
If you went the tikka option, would you be happy single-feeding or do you want it mag fed?
WSM. Shorter powder column = more consistent MVs = less difference in down range impacts due to velocities differences. Hitting stuff at long range is all about error reduction. WSM does a better job of reducing vertical error. If you can get that vertical error down, all you will be fighting is wind error - which is huge. One factor to fight much easier than two. The 25-50fps advantage of the WM isn't worth the increased SD/ES of MVs.
Also take a look at the 198gr Flatline by Warner Tool. Faster than the Bergers, better BCs, less variation in BC, less MV variation. Only downsides: splash isn't as easy to see and price is higher and you will need faster twist barrel (9 or 8 twist) and its not a hunting bullet.
Also take a look at the 198gr Flatline by Warner Tool. Faster than the Bergers, better BCs, less variation in BC, less MV variation. Only downsides: splash isn't as easy to see and price is higher and you will need faster twist barrel (9 or 8 twist) and its not a hunting bullet.
I would prefer the option to be mag fed. If i cannot do that with the tikka, i may just use a savage, remington, or howa long action. whichever will be most cheaply available that suits the needs.
I have heard something similar before which is why i have been considering the wsm. i have 3 worries though. 1, some are saying the wsm is dying out and prices are going way up for brass and reloading components. 2, it seems as though the best bang for the buck right now is the 300 wm running 215s or 230s around 3.6 coal. how does the wsm do vs the wm in that category past 1800-2000+ yards. 3, as far as overall price of reloading, using "regular" bergers, is wsm less expensive than the win mag? i know the flatlines and similar bullets really ramp up the price, so is it worth it going to those expensive bullets to try to match the performance of heavier win mag?
i understand i'm focused around price with this and i know that is not ideal. i am in a tight spot right now and money will be fixed and limited for the next 3 years. so i am really trying to maximize each dollar spent to get the best overall value. that was the reason behind the tikka idea instead of a custom action. it seems that with the advice here there are two main options i have. try the tikka in 300 wsm or get the cheapest savage action i can find, throw a barrel on it and run the bigger win mag. it's a lot of compromise no matter which route i go to do "elr" type of stuff, i know. but that's where i'm at. thanks for all the help so far everyone.
Very sound advice,...the 300WSM and WM are 2,000yrd capable.Bergers certainly in the 215 and up do need a fast twist at 9 or even 8.BC is not a statement of accuracy just aerodynamic efficiency.The Lapua 220 scenar has a middle of the road BC but quite incredible consistency/accuracy.
I have no clue on the future brass availability of the WSM. Know it has a strong niche following of users, but of course nothing like the WM.
I don't think you will notice very slight MV difference of the WM over the WSM. Its probably 25fps in favor of WM. But you might notice if the ES/SD of MV difference was 25fps in favor of the WSM. As I said, reduce the error on vertical, focus more on the windage, and you will make more hits. WSM loads at about 10grains, approximately, less powder, so there is a slight savings in powder costs.
If you are cost focused, you might want to look at the Hornady 30cals. Have heard good things. Of course, you can't go wrong with Bergers either. Their Hybrids are awesome. I'm loving the Flatline 198gr - its a beast past 1000yds - all the error reduction really adds up at that range and it prints very small groups that far out because of it.
With all this said, don't sweat the decision too much - either cartridge/bullet combo is capable at 2000yds - IF the rifle and shooter are up to it. Best of luck out there!
I don't think you will notice very slight MV difference of the WM over the WSM. Its probably 25fps in favor of WM. But you might notice if the ES/SD of MV difference was 25fps in favor of the WSM. As I said, reduce the error on vertical, focus more on the windage, and you will make more hits. WSM loads at about 10grains, approximately, less powder, so there is a slight savings in powder costs.
If you are cost focused, you might want to look at the Hornady 30cals. Have heard good things. Of course, you can't go wrong with Bergers either. Their Hybrids are awesome. I'm loving the Flatline 198gr - its a beast past 1000yds - all the error reduction really adds up at that range and it prints very small groups that far out because of it.
With all this said, don't sweat the decision too much - either cartridge/bullet combo is capable at 2000yds - IF the rifle and shooter are up to it. Best of luck out there!
This has not been my experience. I shoot 230 Target Hybrids out of a 9.5 twist out to 1500+ with outstanding results. I know others who are doing the same with 10 twist barrels and the 230s.
Berger worked with end users on this and the first suggested factory COAL and loads. They have been proactive and admit the 215 certainly needs to run a faster twist. I cannot comment on the 230 etc as these are a different profile! The 215 can be hard to get to shoot sub 1/2 MOA in any platform and does not transition well. In comparison the AMAX and ELD shoot out the box very easily and with far greater Lot to Lot consistency. Then there is the significant price difference,....outside the US flying Berger is like shooting mini gold bars!
I'm going to pass this info onto a mate. He is deciding which of these two projectiles he wants to use in his WM.
I have shot 300wsm for several years in barrel lengths between 24" and 30". My current 300wsm is a 1:10 twist 30" Hawk Hill on a single shot right bolt left port custom action, I haven't got the chance to shoot passed 1000 with it yet. It will run the 198gr flat line at 3050fps with a mild load and will print 4" of vertical at 1000, 208gr amax shoots also as good at just under 3000fps.
Before the rebarrel I had a 25" Krieger 1:10 on it. I shot 208gr amax at 2880fps, it accounted for several people's first time steel at 1 mile, several elk out to 517yards, and my longest shot to date which was just over 2160 yards.
I love the 300wsm round. I live at about 6600' above sea level so I get to cheat.
That said if I wasn't so invested in the 300wsm I would be shooting 300 Norma or Norma AI and probably wouldn't own my 338 Lapua.
Before the rebarrel I had a 25" Krieger 1:10 on it. I shot 208gr amax at 2880fps, it accounted for several people's first time steel at 1 mile, several elk out to 517yards, and my longest shot to date which was just over 2160 yards.
I love the 300wsm round. I live at about 6600' above sea level so I get to cheat.
That said if I wasn't so invested in the 300wsm I would be shooting 300 Norma or Norma AI and probably wouldn't own my 338 Lapua.
Lucky me, I watched Charles Greer put 10 shots into IIRC, 3.9" during my only 1000Y benchrest match with his 300WSM.
I was at the pits and stationed at his target so the record was before my very eyes. I thought it seemed like a sensational group, lol! That record has since been improved upon I believe.
Swore off belts a while ago.
I was at the pits and stationed at his target so the record was before my very eyes. I thought it seemed like a sensational group, lol! That record has since been improved upon I believe.
Swore off belts a while ago.
Again, this has not been my experience. First, there is no way that the 215 requires a faster twist than the 230. Everything else being equal, twist rate stability is a function of projectile length and the 230 is 0.07" longer than the 215. The 230 and 215 hybrids have very similar profiles.
With respect to being hard to tune, I couldn't disagree more, at least in regard to Berger's hybrid bullets. I'm not saying others haven't had trouble, but I have found Berger's hybrid profile extremely easy to tune. I shoot Berger hybrids in several different rifles and regularly use the 6.5mm 140 grain, 30 cal 215/230 grain, and 338 cal 300 grain. Maybe I've just been lucky. If you are talking about Berger's VLD bullets, then that is another story. I know the VLDs are pretty sensitive to seating depth, but once tuned they are excellent.
With respect to lot consistency, sorry but no way Hornady beats Berger here. Berger is the definition of consistency, which is why they dominate in benchrest competitions.
With respect to price, I can't argue with you there. Bergers are pricey. But you get what you pay for.
Yep, there is no bullet easier tune than the hybrids.
I won a long range match with a swagged depth and load with the 215's. The only reason I went to the 230's was I thought the BC was .743 but turns out it's not much different than the 215's. Nevertheless I'll be trying the Hornady 225's next time I screw the 30 cal barrel on.
I won a long range match with a swagged depth and load with the 215's. The only reason I went to the 230's was I thought the BC was .743 but turns out it's not much different than the 215's. Nevertheless I'll be trying the Hornady 225's next time I screw the 30 cal barrel on.
Interesting,....so the 215 HYBRID in question first appeared boxed as " 1-10" or faster on the Berger label and info sheet. It now states "1-9" or faster both on the label/web page and info sheets. HYBRID or not dont confuse profile accross calibres. The AMAX line points this out well. The 178 AMAX is an entirely different animal from the 208. Both are great bullets but different.The ALCO ULD also should work in a 10 twist on paper but in reality to wringing the most out of extreme secants you do need fast twists. There is a difference between functional and optimal.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I suggest you spend some time here: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
Try running the numbers on a 215 Hybrid at 2850fps (typical 300 win mag velocity for this bullet) with a 10 twist and an altitude of 1500ft. You will see the bullet is perfectly stable.
I run 215 Hybrids at 3150 out of a Norma IMP at an altitude of about 6500ft. Run those numbers and you will see that I could get away with an 11 twist and still be perfectly stable.
The point is there is more to stability than twist rate. Berger's recommendation of a 9 twist is for worst case conditions, i.e. sea level and 308 Win velocities.
I suggest you spend some time here: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
Try running the numbers on a 215 Hybrid at 2850fps (typical 300 win mag velocity for this bullet) with a 10 twist and an altitude of 1500ft. You will see the bullet is perfectly stable.
I run 215 Hybrids at 3150 out of a Norma IMP at an altitude of about 6500ft. Run those numbers and you will see that I could get away with an 11 twist and still be perfectly stable.
The point is there is more to stability than twist rate. Berger's recommendation of a 9 twist is for worst case conditions, i.e. sea level and 308 Win velocities.
WSM gives up so little to WM as to be considered nothing but you are not going to get that kind of performance running from a SA. Need at least 3.100" OAL and closer to 3.200" OAL, depending on bullet, capable magazine system to let the WSM perform.
Ran 210 JLK VLDs in F-Open rifle at 2980 fps via a 30" barrel, 215 hybrids from most 300WMs are about 2900 fps from a 26" barrel so pretty much a wash. WSM does it with less powder.
Need a medium action such as Defiance, Stiller or Montana Rifleman 1999 actions that will feed 3.125" OAL through magazine cutout in receiver or go to a long action, use 338LM magazines to allow running 3.1+" OAL if you want rifle to run via a DBM.
Ran 210 JLK VLDs in F-Open rifle at 2980 fps via a 30" barrel, 215 hybrids from most 300WMs are about 2900 fps from a 26" barrel so pretty much a wash. WSM does it with less powder.
Need a medium action such as Defiance, Stiller or Montana Rifleman 1999 actions that will feed 3.125" OAL through magazine cutout in receiver or go to a long action, use 338LM magazines to allow running 3.1+" OAL if you want rifle to run via a DBM.
I use Applied Ballistics Munnitions. They currently offer both the 215 and 230 Bergers for the WM loaded to 3.600 coal. Both perform extremely well in my 22" 10 twist Lilja. No need to hand load for this rifle anymore.
At present 300WM ammo is plentiful. In a few years the 300 WSM or the 300 Norma Magnum may be as ubiquitous - look what happened with the 6.5 creedmoor. Of cousre, if you roll your own then none of that matters. Go with whatever you like if that's the case.
One more thing, there are a lot of 300WM shooters out there who have already done whatever the rest of us pedestrians haven't thought of yet. They're a great source of info that the WSM MAY not have.
God bless America
One more thing, there are a lot of 300WM shooters out there who have already done whatever the rest of us pedestrians haven't thought of yet. They're a great source of info that the WSM MAY not have.
God bless America
Honestly I would go with a faster twist. No reason not to, other than they are tougher to find. I would go with a 9 twist, or even faster (my two 30cal barrels are 8.7 and 8). This will mean you can shot all the really long bullets and not give up any BC to yaw drag. My 8.7 twist yaws a bit with the 198gr Flatline at low D.A., reducing BC by 1-2%ish (now this is a 308 so the MV is slower than the magnums).
You really want to go 1800, you need the right tools.
You really want to go 1800, you need the right tools.
I agree with jbailey. If shooting to 1800 is a high priority, I would build a rifle to shoot the highest BC bullets as fast as possible. I would build around the 230 Berger, or maybe the 225 ELD-M. The Flatline is also a great bullet, but given the cost and availability I don't think I would build a rifle around that projectile. Depending on your altitude, I would go with a barrel in the 8.5 to 9.5 twist range.
If 1800 is more of a fun afterthought and not a primary objective, then a 10 twist shooting Berger 215s will give you enough performance to make occasional hits and scratch the itch, even if it isn't an ideal configuration for that range.
If 1800 is more of a fun afterthought and not a primary objective, then a 10 twist shooting Berger 215s will give you enough performance to make occasional hits and scratch the itch, even if it isn't an ideal configuration for that range.
The stuff 1800+ will be as you say there, just the fun afterthought. the idea was to have a gun that i could shoot regularly with somewhat inexpensive bullets but still get good long range stuff done from time to time for that "itch".
HOWEVER, i imagine i'm in need of hearing some wisdom with my current mindset. With that new flatline 6.5 article and the absolutely absurd numbers in that ballistic table, i wonder if 6.5 saum would better satisfy the goal here. 1900 and in, the saum with 140 eld's beats the wsm using 185's, 19x's and 2xx's in my app. if a 3100 creedmoor has 14 mills to 1800 with the $1.20 bullets and no loss of performance inside a mile with the eld's, then at ~3400 ish i'm looking to stay supersonic past 2500. i am awestruck by the numbers and have to wonder, is there more to this than what i'm seeing? what am i missing? especially considering the saum's ridiculous barrel life claim.
I don't see a downside to the Flatlines other than price. As much as 4x more than a Hornady ELD. Also if you plan to use your long range loads for hunting, the Flatlines will not be good for that.
I don't own a 6.5 SAUM, but I am skeptical of any claim of "ridiculous barrel life" when you are pushing a 6.5 @ 3400. Unless there is something magical about the SAUM, that load is going to eat throats for breakfast. I gave up on 6.5-284 because I fried a barrel in less than 800 rounds, and I was pushing 140 Bergers at only 3050. The nice thing about the Flatlines is you can use them in a standard short action cartridge and still see the benefits. Given Lowlight's experience with the 6.5CM pushing Flatlines at 3100, do you really need more than that for a target rifle?
I don't own a 6.5 SAUM, but I am skeptical of any claim of "ridiculous barrel life" when you are pushing a 6.5 @ 3400. Unless there is something magical about the SAUM, that load is going to eat throats for breakfast. I gave up on 6.5-284 because I fried a barrel in less than 800 rounds, and I was pushing 140 Bergers at only 3050. The nice thing about the Flatlines is you can use them in a standard short action cartridge and still see the benefits. Given Lowlight's experience with the 6.5CM pushing Flatlines at 3100, do you really need more than that for a target rifle?
I could use the eld's for most of the shooting including 1800+ and still do pretty good with the saum. The idea that a 122 flatline going 3400+ means some serious performance. I am very skeptical of the barrel life claims but George Gardner says it'll do upwards of 2000 rounds and the forums don't seem to dispute it yet. A regular ole' 6.5 cm seems to do very nicely with the flatlines like you say. it's the idea of just sending off one of my short actions and having a 2200+ supersonic round about $600 later.
One other thing to think about is that spotting misses at a mile+ with little 120 grain projectiles will be pretty tricky. Even with 300 grain .338 projectiles it is difficult a lot of the time. So even though the projectile is ballistically capable at 2200+ yards, the rest of your system will be the limiting factor.
thanks for the reality check. i was getting excited without considering the logic.
Yep, It's all going to depend on the conditions you are shooting in. Dry dusty conditions are much easier to spot in than damp/heavy vegetation. I've ran into this issue before even with my 300wm vs. larger/heavier calibers. Unless you have everything doped perfectly(which is rarely the case at 2k+), being able to spot and correct a miss is a large part of the equation. Watching your trace is another plus but not always possibly.
As far as the 300wm vs 300wsm goes they both have their pro's and con's which has been stated in the thread already. In a Medium or Long action the 300wsm comes to life but brass cost and availability is going to be a factor. A 300wsm running the 198s in a long action would be killer, especially being able to mag feed.
I would go with the 300 Win Mag, it will shoot the heavy bullets better. It makes doing that 1,300 yards and out to a mile little more easy.
I'm wondering where all the 300WSM stuff is disappearing came form, I have zero problems finding it even at some box stores.. I haven't ordered brass in a while but I found it readily on line last fall even when brass was tough to get. I have a 300WSM in a Kimber Montana, mine happens to shoot nicely for elk hunting and that's all I bought it for. (7.5 vs 14 lbs when your camped at 9000 and Hunting at nearly 12000. 
) In the light gun with 190gr Accubonds ,, well its solid out to about 600 and that's all I care about (> 1 ELKOA), it does recoil hard. Not a go-to for rock chucks at all.. Although I shot some 145's in it and they didn't kick too bad, and they are a fast.
) In the light gun with 190gr Accubonds ,, well its solid out to about 600 and that's all I care about (> 1 ELKOA), it does recoil hard. Not a go-to for rock chucks at all.. Although I shot some 145's in it and they didn't kick too bad, and they are a fast.
Why are you fixated on the .30 cal?
One of the 7mm shortmags running a 175 ELD will certainly hang with the .300 wsm or .300 WM shooting a 212 ELD (the BC's are almost the same, the 7mm is a bit higher), you would get a higher initial velocity with the 7mm that will bleed off speed at around the same rate as the heavy .30 cal.
Lower recoil, higher speed, flatter shooting.
There is also a wildcat 7mm-300 wsm floating around since .300 wsm brass is pretty easy to find.
For a long action, there is the 7mmLRM which does away with the useless belt (don't know why they haven't done the same with the .300 WM), there is also the 7-300WM.
Once you start getting into the 180+ 7mm bullets you have to go extremely heavy in the .30 cal to match ballistics.
One of the 7mm shortmags running a 175 ELD will certainly hang with the .300 wsm or .300 WM shooting a 212 ELD (the BC's are almost the same, the 7mm is a bit higher), you would get a higher initial velocity with the 7mm that will bleed off speed at around the same rate as the heavy .30 cal.
Lower recoil, higher speed, flatter shooting.
There is also a wildcat 7mm-300 wsm floating around since .300 wsm brass is pretty easy to find.
For a long action, there is the 7mmLRM which does away with the useless belt (don't know why they haven't done the same with the .300 WM), there is also the 7-300WM.
Once you start getting into the 180+ 7mm bullets you have to go extremely heavy in the .30 cal to match ballistics.
I used to send 210 Berger vld and 210 jlk out at 2975 in both 300wsm, and 300wm, seating long in the wsm in a long action, less powder, lower es and sd, 1650, some times 1700, but no mile.
The 215 hybrid at 2950 will get 1800 plus depending on conditions.
Barrels were/are Hart 30" 9 twist. The wsm, FOR ME, performs equal to the wm, as long as it's long seated. Short seated in a short action DID NOT WORK for me.
I cannot get the 230 or 240 safely over 2850 with the wm, and it just can't run with the big dogs at that speed.
That's my take on the original posters question...
Re comment on 7-300wm, it's a performer no doubt. but I don't see the need to build one, because I have two 338 laps, one 338 extreme, and one 375 ct, and I like the distance and energy on target and how well they kill critters.....
The 300's don't kill as well, for me at least, your mileage may vary, and I haven't ever been a fan of the 7 for killing things, so I've left it alone...
jmhe....
I formerly thought the 50 was king, but I traded it off for a new REAP/IR thermal, haven't looked back.... :- )
The 215 hybrid at 2950 will get 1800 plus depending on conditions.
Barrels were/are Hart 30" 9 twist. The wsm, FOR ME, performs equal to the wm, as long as it's long seated. Short seated in a short action DID NOT WORK for me.
I cannot get the 230 or 240 safely over 2850 with the wm, and it just can't run with the big dogs at that speed.
That's my take on the original posters question...
Re comment on 7-300wm, it's a performer no doubt. but I don't see the need to build one, because I have two 338 laps, one 338 extreme, and one 375 ct, and I like the distance and energy on target and how well they kill critters.....
The 300's don't kill as well, for me at least, your mileage may vary, and I haven't ever been a fan of the 7 for killing things, so I've left it alone...
jmhe....
I formerly thought the 50 was king, but I traded it off for a new REAP/IR thermal, haven't looked back.... :- )
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I don't have any business with way overbore cartridges, just to gain what? 150 fps with a long pipe? Not me. Too much "hodnett" hype here.
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