300 wsm - 212 or 241 seneca
- Thread starter Schw15
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Yes great powder for 300 win mag. 7 mag 28 nosler and I use it in a 7mm-300 win mag. Was thinking something different 300 wsm but powder shortage for got I can't just buy what we want when we want now.
I could see N560 or N565 and R26 being awesome in 300WSM with heavies
High density and energy
T
According to the product page the optimal freebore is 0.090"-0.165" I'd suggest getting in contact with PVA and ask them about the specs you need.
According to the product page the optimal freebore is 0.090"-0.165" I'd suggest getting in contact with PVA and ask them about the specs you need.
My 7 twist barrel is 0.160” freebore, based on a recommendation from Josh K. It works correctly with both the 212 and 241 Seneca, and i can load both bullets to a small jump.
The bullet is not full diameter until it gets to the first bore rider/pressure ring which is way to the back of the bullet. The full .308” diameter bearing surface is quite short, with a pressure relief gap in the middle. So the super short freebore works just fine.
The bullet is not full diameter until it gets to the first bore rider/pressure ring which is way to the back of the bullet. The full .308” diameter bearing surface is quite short, with a pressure relief gap in the middle. So the super short freebore works just fine.
Btw due to the severe powder shortage, i ended up using 4000MR, because i could not find Reloder-26 or N570/N565 anywhere.
It is a little more temperature sensitive than i would like, but i get good speed from it. Almost on par with RL-26. During cold winter days (40-45 deg F), speed drops 10-20 fps. When the barrel gets hot (140 deg F), speed goes up 20 fps. ES ended up at 35 fps, 2x more than i would like.
Will develop a new load when i get my hands on a better powder.
It is a little more temperature sensitive than i would like, but i get good speed from it. Almost on par with RL-26. During cold winter days (40-45 deg F), speed drops 10-20 fps. When the barrel gets hot (140 deg F), speed goes up 20 fps. ES ended up at 35 fps, 2x more than i would like.
Will develop a new load when i get my hands on a better powder.
Minor update:
1) The 212 Seneca bullets had an average weight of 210.6 grain, and the PVA folks explained that this is normal. The shape the CNC machine is programmed to cut stays exactly the same, but the density of the bar stock changes slightly from batch to batch. All mono bullets have this issue, but the weight change is too small to really matter. Very consistent weight range (0.3 gn), and base to ogive are all within vernier measurement error.
2) SG for the 212 Seneca is 1.7 at a twist rate of 7.0, and all the bullets flew well, always stable with nice round holes in paper. Good!
3) With 4000MR, i could get the as-measured 210.6 gn bullets to 2,960 fps before i got a very hard bolt lift. But the soft Norma brass starts to open up its primer pockets around 2,900 fps (no HBN used). Planning to buy ADG brass later in 2022 when the second batch is hopefully released.
4) Found a 1.0 grain wide speed node at 2,870 fps. The secondary/lower node is at 2,755 fps and is also 1 grain wide: These super wide nodes are apparently a feature of the 300 WSM. Very useful.
5) Optimized seating depth from a 40 thou jump down to a 3 thou jump. Got a window of 6 thou where group size was under 0.3”, with very tight groups, and often two bullets in one round hole. Quite impressive, actually!
6) For long jumps it is entirely possible to take the load completely out of tune, and get a 2” plus group. It went from a 2.5” groups to a tiny 0.19” in just a 12 thou change in jump. Bullet is easy to tune, but in my application, it does need to be tuned.
Very happy with group size. My ES is just too high, 4000MR powder is somewhat temp sensitive. According to the Lee load manual, it gives nearly the same velocity as RL-26, for the heavies.
1) The 212 Seneca bullets had an average weight of 210.6 grain, and the PVA folks explained that this is normal. The shape the CNC machine is programmed to cut stays exactly the same, but the density of the bar stock changes slightly from batch to batch. All mono bullets have this issue, but the weight change is too small to really matter. Very consistent weight range (0.3 gn), and base to ogive are all within vernier measurement error.
2) SG for the 212 Seneca is 1.7 at a twist rate of 7.0, and all the bullets flew well, always stable with nice round holes in paper. Good!
3) With 4000MR, i could get the as-measured 210.6 gn bullets to 2,960 fps before i got a very hard bolt lift. But the soft Norma brass starts to open up its primer pockets around 2,900 fps (no HBN used). Planning to buy ADG brass later in 2022 when the second batch is hopefully released.
4) Found a 1.0 grain wide speed node at 2,870 fps. The secondary/lower node is at 2,755 fps and is also 1 grain wide: These super wide nodes are apparently a feature of the 300 WSM. Very useful.
5) Optimized seating depth from a 40 thou jump down to a 3 thou jump. Got a window of 6 thou where group size was under 0.3”, with very tight groups, and often two bullets in one round hole. Quite impressive, actually!
6) For long jumps it is entirely possible to take the load completely out of tune, and get a 2” plus group. It went from a 2.5” groups to a tiny 0.19” in just a 12 thou change in jump. Bullet is easy to tune, but in my application, it does need to be tuned.
Very happy with group size. My ES is just too high, 4000MR powder is somewhat temp sensitive. According to the Lee load manual, it gives nearly the same velocity as RL-26, for the heavies.
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After optimizing seating depth for the 212 gn Seneca, i got these 0.2-0.3” groups.
These are all three shot groups at 100, just too expensive to shoot 5 shot groups.
Just outside of the 6 thou seating window where groups are optimal, my groups opened up to 0.5” to 0.7”, often with two or three in one hole and another 0.5” or more away. Pretty tolerant to changes in jump. But seating depth optimization was needed in my rifle. No barrel tuner on this rifle (yet).
It was very easy to tune this load.
These are all three shot groups at 100, just too expensive to shoot 5 shot groups.
Just outside of the 6 thou seating window where groups are optimal, my groups opened up to 0.5” to 0.7”, often with two or three in one hole and another 0.5” or more away. Pretty tolerant to changes in jump. But seating depth optimization was needed in my rifle. No barrel tuner on this rifle (yet).
It was very easy to tune this load.
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I’m having trouble with these in my 300wm. 198’s and 212’s. Last batch I loaded up for testing I had set a round down on my bench to reach for my ammo box. It started to role towards the edge and I figured out why things were so erratic. Get 2 in the same hole and one an inch away. Concentricity was .017” out 
. Going to have to get a different seating stem for these. Normally I check a few in each batch but seamed like a waste of time when everything else is like .002-3” out when measured on the bullet of a loaded round. Good news is my brass is very concentric. With the short bearing surface and long nose that seater is just pushing them any which way they want to go
Several times I thought I had my load shooting a tiny little group. Go to confirm and boom 2” group.
Wasted a bunch of components and barrel life chasing my tail. Lesson learned like normal… the hard way
. Going to have to get a different seating stem for these. Normally I check a few in each batch but seamed like a waste of time when everything else is like .002-3” out when measured on the bullet of a loaded round. Good news is my brass is very concentric. With the short bearing surface and long nose that seater is just pushing them any which way they want to goSeveral times I thought I had my load shooting a tiny little group. Go to confirm and boom 2” group.
Wasted a bunch of components and barrel life chasing my tail. Lesson learned like normal… the hard way
Is the seating stem messing the bullets up anywhere? Or hard to seat? I know I had a stem that was denting the sharp point of the 120 version.I’m having trouble with these in my 300wm. 198’s and 212’s. Last batch I loaded up for testing I had set a round down on my bench to reach for my ammo box. It started to role towards the edge and I figured out why things were so erratic. Get 2 in the same hole and one an inch away. Concentricity was .017” out
Several times I thought I had my load shooting a tiny little group. Go to confirm and boom 2” group.
Wasted a bunch of components and barrel life chasing my tail. Lesson learned like normal… the hard way
I pulled the stem. Bullet just flops around in it. Doesn’t hit the tip but definitely needs a sharper angle to it. Seats vlds fine but these are sharper angled meaplates than vld Checking on options
I had to hone my whidden die for the badlands bullets
Maybe this weekend l will make a custom bullet stem for it.
Maybe this weekend l will make a custom bullet stem for it.
^Same here but with the Sherman Hornady dies for the 6.5 Max. Just drilled out the stem a bit - it was crushing the LHRT tips. Badlands were fine because aluminum tips, and I don't run much neck tension, but clearly better if the force on the projectile is distributed.
I wanna see how that turns out, then I’ll send ya mine
I have a rcbs set and a lee custom set. Neither one will work for these needles lol
Pretty easy part to make really.I wanna see how that turns out, then I’ll send ya mine
I have a rcbs set and a lee custom set. Neither one will work for these needles lol
I’ll probably be cutting a new 338 barrel this weekend so probably do it then.
[Did not see the similar post from Chickentoast in time, apologies!]I’m having trouble with these in my 300wm. 198’s and 212’s. Last batch I loaded up for testing I had set a round down on my bench to reach for my ammo box. It started to role towards the edge and I figured out why things were so erratic. Get 2 in the same hole and one an inch away. Concentricity was .017” out
Several times I thought I had my load shooting a tiny little group. Go to confirm and boom 2” group.
Wasted a bunch of components and barrel life chasing my tail. Lesson learned like normal… the hard way
I had a similar issue: The Seneca bullet is so long the very sharp point touches the inside (top) of the seating stem hole, and the Hornady seating stem (for their Custom Grade two die set) which is meant for the 230 grain Atip was not contacting the ogive of the bullet. Tip got damaged and concentricity was poor. So i drilled a hole inside the seating stem to avoid contact with the tip. That worked better.
Also had to reduce neck tension as the seating force was way too high - even though i was annealing every time (16 thou necks on the Norma 300 WSM brass). Seating stem left deep indentations on the bullet nose.
I now ‘paint’ the inside of the necks with Neolube nr 2, a suspended (liquid) carbon lubricant that dries quickly, and that seems to help. [The Keith Glasscock F-class trick.]
For various reasons (better feel), i switched to the LE Wilson seater and a small arbor press, and concentricity improved further.
Btw: Had to readjust the Wilson seating stem way down to make the seater work correctly with the long bullet. Also drilled a hole inside the Wilson seating stem, but not sure if it really needed it. Just wanted to be sure. See pics below.
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Bullet tips are not making contact in either of my dies. But the only spot it does contact the bullet is a bout 1/8” from the tip and it does make a ring on the nose. Like a free tubb ring. I polished it a bit and that helped with the ring marks a little but still such a floppy fit. Been thinking about getting a set of whidden dies
Hmmm this gives me an idea. I’ll see if I can swap out one of my seater stems. Thanks hadn’t thought about that
Both Wilson and Hornady Custom Grade dies make contact about 0.54” from the tip, and it is a fairly snug fit now (not exactly perfect, but workable).
241 Seneca on the left.
212 Seneca on the right.
Nice 1/2” group with a flyer 1” to the right. I don’t feel I pulled it.
Then shot my 205gr sbd2 load and it shot one hole bout 1/4”
Then shot my 205gr sbd2 load and it shot one hole bout 1/4”
I’m done trying with this barrel. The badlands are doing great. I’ll finish this barrel off with those.
Plus my hunting load will also be my play load
Plus my hunting load will also be my play load
Had the same experience initially: Two or three shots in one tiny round little hole (often below 0.2”) and then one off 0.7” to the side. Redid seating optimization in smaller increments of 3 thou, and got that particular problem tuned out. We shall see if the tune holds….
Powder is a little temp sensitive, which is not going to help. The load seems to do better if i keep the rounds in my shirt pocket, under a warm jacket, but pucture injuries are very likely! Those are very long and very sharp tips.
Btw, when you receive your bullets, check the tips under a magnifying glass: A few will be bent over, 90 degrees, thanks to Fedex dropping the box too many times. I used those for pressure testing.
Would be nice if the bullets could be packed individually, like other mono bullets e.g. Peregrine.
Also: These bullets might do better (more consistent) with blunter tips, like Hornady did with the 230 and 250 A-tips. Give up some BC but gain BC consistency post Fedex handling mishaps. Hornady could have machined a sharp aluminum tip, but they made it flat. I think for a reason (probably more robust that way, especially in a magazine under heavy recoil).
Results with 212 Seneca and 4000MR in a 28” 7 twist 300 WSM (not the ideal powder, good speed, similar to RL-26, but a little temp sensitive):
Hard bolt lift at 2910 fps. Brass had an ejector mark and primer pocket opened up 1.0 thou.
Higher node at 2870 fps. Mid sixties powder charge. Node was 1.0 wide. Brass is ok but expected life would be below 10 reloads.
Lower node at 2750 fps. Lower sixties in terms of powder charge. Node was also about 1.0 gn wide. Long brass life, but giving up some performance.
Next time i will probably build a 300 PRC.
Hard bolt lift at 2910 fps. Brass had an ejector mark and primer pocket opened up 1.0 thou.
Higher node at 2870 fps. Mid sixties powder charge. Node was 1.0 wide. Brass is ok but expected life would be below 10 reloads.
Lower node at 2750 fps. Lower sixties in terms of powder charge. Node was also about 1.0 gn wide. Long brass life, but giving up some performance.
Next time i will probably build a 300 PRC.
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I did a huge seating depth test in increments of .003”. Went through 90 of the 198’s and 58 of the 212’s. Tips would definitely be in better shape if they didn’t ship them in a plastic bag!!!!! Many tips where curled a hair and oal was .003” es on the bullets.
Those tips are fragile. Wouldn’t even want to run them in a mag even if they would fit lol.
Now I check, it was 140 of the 198’s.
Next barrel will be a 1:7 so we’ll see how that one does
Those tips are fragile. Wouldn’t even want to run them in a mag even if they would fit lol.
Now I check, it was 140 of the 198’s.
Next barrel will be a 1:7 so we’ll see how that one does
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ADG brass has arrived, very consistent weight range (3 grains), more case capacity than either Norma or Nosler (234 grain average weight, 81.4 gn of water capacity), and shot well during fire forming.
Looks like the higher node will be achievable.
Has anybody been able to confirm the BC of the 30 cal Badlands bullets via drop data?
Looks like the higher node will be achievable.
Has anybody been able to confirm the BC of the 30 cal Badlands bullets via drop data?
I have confirmed bc of the 205’s out to half mile. Tried at 1 mile but conditions were horrible for spotting and winds were all over the place! Hopefully soon I can get back out to 1 mile and use my GoPro to help spot
At half mile my vertical dispersion was 3.5” for 8 rounds on steel.
At half mile my vertical dispersion was 3.5” for 8 rounds on steel.
