.30'06 vs .308

Re: .30'06 vs .308

Greg,
What is the real difference between the 280 and a 270? Is there a whole lot? Have always been curious. Since they appear to be so close in caliber. I have a 270 and really like it for hunting, since it shoots a bit flatter than the '06(being a smaller bullet in the parent case) out to my hunting limit.
Eric
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cserv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MM,
since you've exp. w/ both rounds, what would be the min. barrel length for the '06? and still maintain the edge over the 308 regarding velocity. i've seen alot about guys running 20" 308's to 1000, but nothing much really regarding the old '06. All while using factory loaded ammo( for now).
thanks,
Eric </div></div>

It just depends on barrel lengths. With equal barrels, the 30-06 will always have a 150-200 fps advantage (handloaded). If you take 20" 308 ballistics, you could probably equal that with a 16" 30-06, but muzzle blast would likely be getting fairly obnoxious.

I'm currently using a 22.5" bbl on my 30-06, and it gets the 208 AMax to 2720 fps without pushing it. That is plenty for 1K+. Heck the 208 does well to 1K at 2500 fps mv.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cserv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,
What is the real difference between the 280 and a 270? Is there a whole lot? Have always been curious. Since they appear to be so close in caliber. I have a 270 and really like it for hunting, since it shoots a bit flatter than the '06(being a smaller bullet in the parent case) out to my hunting limit.
Eric </div></div>

Bullet size is a primary difference.

In the 270 bullet market the "heavy for caliber" peters out around a 10tw bullet. In 7mm that goes to a 8.5tw bullet and the corresponding form factors and ballistic coefficients are much higher in the 7mm variant.

The case design of the 280 is based off the 270 Win trim length (different from the 30-06, but both come from the true parent, the 30-03 case) adn the shoulder is pushed forward on the 280 case by 0.052" compared to the shoulder on the 30-06 and 270 Win.

This was done for safety reasons so that 280 ammo could not be inadvertently fired in a 270.

Case capacity is nearly identical at appx 68-70gr H20 overflow.

A 7mm/270 and a 7mm/06 will be absolute twins, they're identical except for the trim length.

The 280 might push another 25fps from it... MAYBE...

The 280 and 280 AI are great solutions to using a long action with a standard bolt face (aka, an old 30-06 action) but getting Short Mag type performance. The 280 AI has identical powder capacity to the 7mm Rem SAUM (74gr H20)
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at the differences in this manner,

Assume 26" bbl, sea level, 208gr AMax at Litz BC of .630.



308 launches a 208 AMax at 2600 fps, retains 1200 fps to 1350 yards.

30-06 launches a 208 AMax at 2800 fps, retains 1200 fps to 1500 yards.

300 WinMag launches a 208 AMax at 3000 fps, retains 1200 fps to 1625 yards.</div></div>

Can' believe its being debated... yeah yeah yeah, the 308.... Times have changed and bigger and smaller stuff have been created to REPLACE that thing. 30-06 much better all the way around... the 308, yeah back in the day, i say back in the day the 308... geez. These freaking 308's... Beside paper and people killer, it has nothing left after 1000yds. Don't see too many people hunting big game with them, so what good are they.. SHORT RANGE TOOL... Use the right tool for the job. JMO
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Matt, why else would you want a sniper rifle other than to kill paper and people as you put it. Not too many uses for one outside of that. Also I think the 308 (1952)replaced the 30-06 (1906).

Longest confirmed kill by a .308 rifle was 1,250 meters (1367 yards, 0.78 miles).  Shot was taken by Staff Sgt Jim Gilliland of the US Army.  It was one shot kill with a .308 M24 Rifle.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I was referencing everyones point on <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ballistics</span></span></span>. is one better then the other was the question i took from it... Age old debat of the 308... well there are many rifles out there that can do 1300yd shoot all day long. People who own a 308 always want to take back to the 308, which is an OK round but come on...I could think of 20+ calibers that could do that with ease and actually do it further and flatter. Beside the military use for it, the 308 is a short range tool. I don't think too many ethical hunters would want to take game past 500yds with a 308.

The point i was making was ballistic wise there are alot better choices and comparing the two its a no brainer. Thats why i went righ to the 300 win mag because it does what ever a 308 and/or the 30-06 can do and do it better and further. JMO... not trygn to stur it, but the 308 is just that, a 308. short range tool.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

MM,
Thanks for the reply, that's the kind of info I was looking for. If I stay w/ the '06 it will get a 22" varmint contour w/ a 10 twist. Just wanted to be sure I could go that short and still have a barrel that "could" get to 1000 when/if I'm ready.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I don't think anyone was implying 308 ballistics are better than chambering X, Y, or Z.

I'm just talking relative differences between the subject chamberings.

The 308 is what it is. That said, there's a real ballistic difference between 168/175 FGMM from a 20" rig, and handloaded VLDs from a 26" rig.

Obviously the 308 will never be a 300 WinMag, nor anywhere close.

I'm launching 208s at 2675 fps in my 26" 308. In local atmo (4000' el), it makes 1K with about 1570 fps, and 1130 ft-lbs.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Yep, that's about it. the .270 Win has the edge that the ammo is widely available, much moreso than for the .280 Rem. The .280 Rem has the edge that the 7mm bullet selection is probabaly more wide and versatile.

Greg
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think anyone was implying 308 ballistics are better than chambering X, Y, or Z.

I'm just talking relative differences between the subject chamberings.

The 308 is what it is. That said, there's a real ballistic difference between 168/175 FGMM from a 20" rig, and handloaded VLDs from a 26" rig.

Obviously the 308 will never be a 300 WinMag, nor anywhere close.

I'm launching 208s at 2675 fps in my 26" 308. In local atmo (4000' el), it makes 1K with about 1570 fps, and 1130 ft-lbs.</div></div>

+1 Marine.. Thats al i was implying as well... a 308 aint no 300 win mag...
frown.gif
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm currently using a 22.5" bbl on my 30-06, and it gets the 208 AMax to 2720 fps without pushing it. That is plenty for 1K+. Heck the 208 does well to 1K at 2500 fps mv. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm launching 208s at 2675 fps in my 26" 308. In local atmo (4000' el), it makes 1K with about 1570 fps, and 1130 ft-lbs. </div></div>

You lost speed with a longer barrel? I'm confused
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was referencing everyones point on <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ballistics</span></span></span>. is one better then the other was the question i took from it... Age old debat of the 308... well there are many rifles out there that can do 1300yd shoot all day long. People who own a 308 always want to take back to the 308, which is an OK round but come on...I could think of 20+ calibers that could do that with ease and actually do it further and flatter. Beside the military use for it, the 308 is a short range tool. I don't think too many ethical hunters would want to take game past 500yds with a 308.

The point i was making was ballistic wise there are alot better choices and comparing the two its a no brainer. Thats why i went righ to the 300 win mag because it does what ever a 308 and/or the 30-06 can do and do it better and further. JMO... not trygn to stur it, but the 308 is just that, a 308. short range tool. </div></div>


you need to tell that to elkhuntingguide who shoots more elk in a year than most in a life time at over 500 yds. I think he has it bullet placement, bullet contruction with head stamp last. There are a few more examples of .308 capabilty from others such as pgs in the hunting section. 30/06 and .300 win mag both carry more energy longer distance but to say the .308 is a short range tool is almost comical.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could think of 20+ calibers that could do that with ease and actually do it further and flatter. Beside the military use for it, the 308 is a short range tool. I don't think too many ethical hunters would want to take game past 500yds with a 308.
</div></div>

Time for me to link to Salazar's article.

I largely agree with this and yet I wonder how many people ethically take animals too far beyond, say, 600 yards. Field accuracy is going to be about 1 MOA (probably a but more, actually, it is not just the accuracy of the weapon, but the wind read and the ranging and getting correct drops).

According to Salazar, he is getting better scores at and inside of 600 yards with the 308 due to its inherent accuracy. Beyond 600 yards, the superior ballistics of the 30'06 take over.

1 MOA gives me about 6" to work with at 600 yards. The ethical dilemma is a combination of retained energy and accuracy. At 600 yards, the 308 has both the energy and accuracy to kill a medium sized game animal. (150 - 250 lbs)

Going beyond 600 to 800 or 1,000, your accuracy is running out. Now you are talking +/- 10" - 12". That is getting out of the kill zone for most medium sized game. To boot, your 7mm and 6.5 mm bullets don't have the retained energy of the 7.62mm, so you are stuck with 30'06 or 308 Win Mag or RUM or .338's.

I would not call the 308 a short range tool. It is a great medium range tool. When you get beyond 600 yards, you have other considerations, like actually being able to ethically hit what you are aiming at. This makes the 308 a pretty powerful tool... it runs out of gas at just the point that accuracy becomes a major consideration for all cartridges.

It is difficult to argue with the 30'06, though. It will do everything the 308 will do. But once you stretch the range beyond 600 yards, you really need to worry about the size of that kill zone and the fact that you are going to actually have to find that animal. The 30'06 buys you maybe an extra hundred yards or two. At 800, I don't know if I would take that shot regardless of cartridge. I know many do, though.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Before gaining knowledge about different rifle cartridges the general thinking amoungst my friends was like this.... 30-06 is just a plain ol' hunting round and the 308 is a TACTICAL round. So the 308 must be the best because the military uses it.
The 30-06 can obviously push the same bullet faster than the 308.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You lost speed with a longer barrel? I'm confused </div></div>

The shorter barrel is a '06, the longer barrel the 308.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Carter,
I could not agree more with those statements regarding the ethics of hunting. That is why I have a personal limit of around 400, regardless of how capable the cartridge to reach further. Th his is my limit for ethicly taking game, that's just me. Targets sre whole other story.
Eric
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

over 700-800 yards I would take a well built 30-06 over a 308 ANY and EVERY day of the year. I have had may rifles in both calibers and the 30-06 will outshoot the 308 in equally accurate rifles (ie...both 1/2 MOA for example) at long range. 800 yards plus. I get a solid 200-250 fps more in the 30-06 with same weight bullets in the 185-210 range.

Shooting many 175-210 bullets in an 06 with a 200 fps advantage over the 308 gives you roughly 4 feet less drop and a Foot less drift ( 10 mph wind) @ 1000 yards. Thats the difference of X ring to 9 ring in many highpower targets. I'd call that significant
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Taseal-

MM is getting 2675 from his 26" barreled <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">308</span></span> and 2720 from the 22.5" barreled <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">30-06</span></span>








<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could think of 20+ calibers that could do that with ease and actually do it further and flatter. Beside the military use for it, the 308 is a short range tool. I don't think too many ethical hunters would want to take game past 500yds with a 308.
</div></div>

Time for me to link to Salazar's article.

I largely agree with this and yet I wonder how many people ethically take animals too far beyond, say, 600 yards. Field accuracy is going to be about 1 MOA (probably a but more, actually, it is not just the accuracy of the weapon, but the wind read and the ranging and getting correct drops).

According to Salazar, he is getting better scores at and inside of 600 yards with the 308 due to its inherent accuracy. Beyond 600 yards, the superior ballistics of the 30'06 take over.

1 MOA gives me about 6" to work with at 600 yards. The ethical dilemma is a combination of retained energy and accuracy. At 600 yards, the 308 has both the energy and accuracy to kill a medium sized game animal. (150 - 250 lbs)

Going beyond 600 to 800 or 1,000, your accuracy is running out. Now you are talking +/- 10" - 12". That is getting out of the kill zone for most medium sized game. To boot, your 7mm and 6.5 mm bullets don't have the retained energy of the 7.62mm, so you are stuck with 30'06 or 308 Win Mag or RUM or .338's.

I would not call the 308 a short range tool. It is a great medium range tool. When you get beyond 600 yards, you have other considerations, like actually being able to ethically hit what you are aiming at. This makes the 308 a pretty powerful tool... it runs out of gas at just the point that accuracy becomes a major consideration for all cartridges.

It is difficult to argue with the 30'06, though. It will do everything the 308 will do. But once you stretch the range beyond 600 yards, you really need to worry about the size of that kill zone and the fact that you are going to actually have to find that animal. The 30'06 buys you maybe an extra hundred yards or two. At 800, I don't know if I would take that shot regardless of cartridge. I know many do, though. </div></div>

Keep in mind that German Salazar's numbers are for positional shooting. This does not beget the best groups possible from a platform, what it measures is that a highly consistent shooter at his level is more consistent with the 308 over the higher recoiling, longer bolt throw 30-06. The odd man out there is the 6XC but what do we know about the 6mm in regards to the two 30's? His numbers and years behind the rifle in 308 and 30-06 shows more time/exposure than with the 6mm "pea shooter".

I have little doubt that Salazar would run circles around everyone in this thread when it comes to his discipline and he certainly has the pedigree talk about what wins matches.

I don't necessarily buy the stackup he has based on "inherent accuracy" of a case. This isn't short range benchrest with 6PPC's and the like. That game has the human factor largely removed. That is highly different than what Salazar is doing and what we're doing around here. The human element is arguably the biggest factor at play, my opinion is that once the gear is settled (reliable scope, rifle, etc. then the human factor IS the biggest question).

Notice as well that the spread of all things involved is a few tenths of a percent in points amassed by one particular High Master.

There's likely fewer than 1000 people in the country as well qualified in Salazar's discipline and how does the "inherent accuracy" of a round that can potentially shoot 0.1 MOA agg's at 600yd make a bit of difference over a round that can potentially shoot 0.1005 MOA agg's at 600yd make a flip of difference in positional or tactical precision or belly bench rest?

The human factor is FAR MORE IMPORTANT in this argument over anything else. A piss poor shooter with a 338 LM will get their hat handed to them by a high level 223 or 308 shooter because of the human factor.

Equally paired shooters (or the same shooter) shooting those 2 different calibers will likely see a difference not based upon the inherent accuracy nonsense but because of the different behavior of the extra recoil, barrel length, and wind characteristics of the two rounds.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

bohem, I quote German because he has some very good long term data on this. Perhaps it is not the "inherent accuracy" of the 308, perhaps it is just the diminished recoil of the 308 that helps to keep it on target better at 600 yards and in.

Either way, he is doing better with the 308 at those ranges and he has massive experience with both rounds. And what he is doing is very germane to us as opposed to benchrest shooters, who tend to shoot free recoil in ideal conditions (except for say, long distance bench rest, which is another game).

Yes, they are very very close. And given that they are close, why not go with the short bolt throw, lower recoil rifle with less costly ammunition. You can also get away with a shorter barrel on a 308.

For some hunters, the 30'06 shoots flatter, which is a big sell, but folks on this board know their drops and can compensate pretty easily.

I know a lot of hunters like their 300 Win Mags and 300 RUM's, but that is really overkill for the reasons that I have stated above. For some larger game, you need that additional power.

I am trying to think of the "middle" situation (between 300 win mag and 308) where you really need the 30'06. Not that there is anything wrong with the 30'06, but if you look at it, you get a lot from the 308 while giving up a few hundred feet per second (if that) muzzle velocity.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm currently using a 22.5" bbl on my 30-06, and it gets the 208 AMax to 2720 fps without pushing it. That is plenty for 1K+. Heck the 208 does well to 1K at 2500 fps mv. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm launching 208s at 2675 fps in my 26" 308. In local atmo (4000' el), it makes 1K with about 1570 fps, and 1130 ft-lbs. </div></div>

You lost speed with a longer barrel? I'm confused </div></div>

These are the speeds I'm getting with 208s in three of my particular rifles,

20.5" 308Win - 2600 fps
26" 308Win - 2675 fps
22.5" 30-06 - 2720 fps
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I look at it this way, one rifle get a 30-06 I have a friend who has hunted in Africa with a 30-06. It is as versatile as it comes. Personally, I think the 308 in inherently more accurate but with work a 30-06 can hang.

Multiple rifles 308 and a bigger/faster cartridge.

If you are NOT EVER going to shoot at 800+ yards this is a non discussion. Get the 308.

In the southeast it is difficult to find a range that is over 500 yards much less a hunting shot over that. The exception would be hunting power lines.

If I had to give up all my centerfire rifles the last one I part with would be the 30-06. Not my favorite gun, but the gun that is the most versatile.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

If I could only have one, it would be an easy choice; I'd take the '06. As it is, I <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> have more than one; and the '06 is still my choice. I own no .308's; but I also refuse to rule them out.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

That's why chose the 06 is because its in the middle the three. If you want less recoil you can reduce your load, you can get close to 300WM performance,but the 300 WM will be faster. The question will be, do you want a short action or long action?
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

ive got an old remington 721 in 06,24in barrel bone stock.infact i put the 1st scope on it but aint no way ill switch to 308,it shoot fantastic and is accurate as hell.the 308 just never showed me much of an improvement besides i hate changes
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

OK, hang on all you 300 win mag fans, in my experience, I would not grab the 300 win mag for 1 huge reason, that nice flat 700-1000 yard effective range you guys are all touting? You can't safely achieve that with a bullet that weighs over 180-190. I was reading a reloading handbook and I did some research on my own and apparently the 300 win mag gets really unstable with high powder loads on heavier bullets, and I don't really want to send anything less than 200 down range at a bear, just to be sure, my bear loads are 220 which the 06 handles just fine. And to me it just seems pointless to have a magnum caliber if you can't put a giant heavy bullet in it. Unless your biggest target is a person, then the 300 win mag is beautiful, but we aren't the guys who make the decisions about what gets used on people so we shouldn't be using a 160lb 8in thick unarmored animal as our reference target.

The 7mm and the 270 in my experience (which isn't all that extensive I admit) are great on paper and great for deer, maybe elk, but I wouldn't go much bigger than that.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been shooting and reloading both the 308 and 30-06 for several years now.

In equal length barrels, the 30-06 is good for about a 200 fps gain over the 308 with like bullets.

I started out with my 308 and 30-06 both with 26" barrels, now the 308 is 20.5", and the 30-06 is 22.4".

Some comparative velocities I get with current barrel lengths

110 VMax:
308: 3200
30-06: 3570

130 TTSX:
308: 3100
30-06: 3340

155 Scenar:
<span style="font-weight: bold">308: 2800
30-06: 3030</span>

208 AMax:
308: 2540
30-06: 2700

As to accuracy, my Douglas-barreled 1/10 twist 30-06 is consistently .5 moa accurate, with everything I've tried from 110 to 240 gr bullets. Get a good barrel and have it installed by a good 'smith, you will have an accurate rifle.

Img_9106.jpg


</div></div>

I would beg to differ with you on that one...I drive 155 scenars with 50.4 grs of alliant 2000mr at 3000fps average with LC brass.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caeli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, hang on all you 300 win mag fans, in my experience, I would not grab the 300 win mag for 1 huge reason, that nice flat 700-1000 yard effective range you guys are all touting? You can't safely achieve that with a bullet that weighs over 180-190. I was reading a reloading handbook and I did some research on my own and apparently the 300 win mag gets really unstable with high powder loads on heavier bullets, and I don't really want to send anything less than 200 down range at a bear, just to be sure, my bear loads are 220 which the 06 handles just fine. And to me it just seems pointless to have a magnum caliber if you can't put a giant heavy bullet in it. </div></div>

Not true. Stability has more to do with barrel twist rate and BC coupled with velocity. Guys are pushing 220gr bullets well out to 1500yds with very consistent results.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seaaggie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would beg to differ with you on that one...I drive 155 scenars with 50.4 grs of alliant 2000mr at 3000fps average with LC brass. </div></div>

How long is your barrel?

Note MM's 308 velocities are with 20.5" and 30-06 is with 22.4".
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

It's a popularity contest.

The .308 is more current, and people think 1903 Springfield when they hear 3006.

The 3006 is a great compromise between a .300 win mag and a .308 really, the only loss being a short action, and when the Army used the long action M24 for 25 years it obviously is not a MAJOR loss to have a long action.

If the brass is affordable I don't see why you should avoid a 3006.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seaaggie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would beg to differ with you on that one...I drive 155 scenars with 50.4 grs of alliant 2000mr at 3000fps average with LC brass. </div></div>

How long is your barrel?

Note MM's 308 velocities are with 20.5" and 30-06 is with 22.4".</div></div>

To be sure, his velocities are with 2000-MR, a new generation of powders that allows an additional 150 fps or so of velocity with similar pressures.

I imagine you might be able to get 300 WM velocities with 30'06 using some of these modern Alliant powders... the advantage over 300 WM would be the much extended barrel life.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Hey,, no doggin on my springfield.... LOL

Side note, wasnt a big part of the reasons the 308 replaced the 30-06 was weight, storage volume, and cycle time. Shorter round faster cycle?

Same as the transition to the 223. If you wanna carry 1000 rounds in a pack which would you pick? 06 or 223...
smile.gif


Remember the 17 super sub machine gun a few years ago.
They were hyping it as the next great thing because for a bolt cycler it had ridiculous rate of fire. Chew through steel plates etc in all the news ads... And you could carry a

I started out with a 30-30, then inherited an 06, then went to a 300WSM. KIlled a few elk with each they all ended up dead.

I still use the 30-30 for a couple hunts that require me to hunt where the range is < 50 yards, and the shots are jump shots.

Just adding to the buzz///

Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a popularity contest.

The .308 is more current, and people think 1903 Springfield when they hear 3006.

The 3006 is a great compromise between a .300 win mag and a .308 really, the only loss being a short action, and when the Army used the long action M24 for 25 years it obviously is not a MAJOR loss to have a long action.

If the brass is affordable I don't see why you should avoid a 3006. </div></div>
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Not true. Stability has more to do with barrel twist rate and BC coupled with velocity. Guys are pushing 220gr bullets well out to 1500yds with very consistent results.[/quote]

Show me, also, is there a way to estimate impact at the point of impact?
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caeli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, hang on all you 300 win mag fans, in my experience, I would not grab the 300 win mag for 1 huge reason, that nice flat 700-1000 yard effective range you guys are all touting? You can't safely achieve that with a bullet that weighs over 180-190. I was reading a reloading handbook and I did some research on my own and apparently the 300 win mag gets really unstable with high powder loads on heavier bullets, and I don't really want to send anything less than 200 down range at a bear, just to be sure, my bear loads are 220 which the 06 handles just fine. And to me it just seems pointless to have a magnum caliber if you can't put a giant heavy bullet in it. Unless your biggest target is a person, then the 300 win mag is beautiful, but we aren't the guys who make the decisions about what gets used on people so we shouldn't be using a 160lb 8in thick unarmored animal as our reference target.

The 7mm and the 270 in my experience (which isn't all that extensive I admit) are great on paper and great for deer, maybe elk, but I wouldn't go much bigger than that. </div></div>
*?
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lmb7784</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MontanaMarine, will your 30-06, 208gr Amax loads fit in the mag? Or are they single load only due to OAL? </div></div>

Yes they fit in the magazine. I'm running 3.40" oal, the Rem 700 magazine will hold 3.6" But check your magazine if another brand, they are not all 3.6".
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seaaggie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been shooting and reloading both the 308 and 30-06 for several years now.

In equal length barrels, the 30-06 is good for about a 200 fps gain over the 308 with like bullets.

I started out with my 308 and 30-06 both with 26" barrels, now the 308 is 20.5", and the 30-06 is 22.4".

Some comparative velocities I get with current barrel lengths

110 VMax:
308: 3200
30-06: 3570

130 TTSX:
308: 3100
30-06: 3340

155 Scenar:
<span style="font-weight: bold">308: 2800
30-06: 3030</span>

208 AMax:
308: 2540
30-06: 2700

As to accuracy, my Douglas-barreled 1/10 twist 30-06 is consistently .5 moa accurate, with everything I've tried from 110 to 240 gr bullets. Get a good barrel and have it installed by a good 'smith, you will have an accurate rifle.

</div></div>

I would beg to differ with you on that one...I drive 155 scenars with 50.4 grs of alliant 2000mr at 3000fps average with LC brass. </div></div>

I believe you, especially with MR2000. I was loading AA2230 in the 308, with the 155s. Not the most speed potential, but the accuracy was very good.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caeli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true. Stability has more to do with barrel twist rate and BC coupled with velocity. Guys are pushing 220gr bullets well out to 1500yds with very consistent results.



Show me, also, is there a way to estimate impact at the point of impact? </div></div>

LOL the loads Army, Marine and Navy snipers are running in the XM2010, Mk13

Mk248 Mod 1.

It might not be a bad idea to do some more reading before posting... At least if the responses are going to be with such self-assurance and bravado.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David Taylor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey,, no doggin on my springfield.... LOL

Side note, wasnt a big part of the reasons the 308 replaced the 30-06 was weight, storage volume, and cycle time. Shorter round faster cycle?

Same as the transition to the 223. If you wanna carry 1000 rounds in a pack which would you pick? 06 or 223...
smile.gif


Remember the 17 super sub machine gun a few years ago.
They were hyping it as the next great thing because for a bolt cycler it had ridiculous rate of fire. Chew through steel plates etc in all the news ads... And you could carry a

I started out with a 30-30, then inherited an 06, then went to a 300WSM. KIlled a few elk with each they all ended up dead.

I still use the 30-30 for a couple hunts that require me to hunt where the range is < 50 yards, and the shots are jump shots.

Just adding to the buzz///

Dave

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a popularity contest.

The .308 is more current, and people think 1903 Springfield when they hear 3006.

The 3006 is a great compromise between a .300 win mag and a .308 really, the only loss being a short action, and when the Army used the long action M24 for 25 years it obviously is not a MAJOR loss to have a long action.

If the brass is affordable I don't see why you should avoid a 3006. </div></div> </div></div>


Actually, from my understanding, the reason the .308 (7.62x51mm) was invented has much more to do with shorter rounds functioning better in machine guns and automatic weapons (easier to design the system for shorter cartridges). Additional contributing factors include advancements in powders that no longer required the case volume of the .30-06 to meet similar ballistic requirements (and remember, we are talking 1950's- not the incredible loads guys are working up today).

.30-06 150gr M2 ball- 2740
7.62x51mm 147gr M80 ball- 2800

As you can see, for military rounds in general use, the performance is almost identical and the M80 round is about 1/2" shorter- meaning a shorter stroke on autoloading designs, magazines not as wide and lighter weapons in thanks to shorter receivers.

Weight, storage volume and cycle time I'm almost positive had no impact on the decision... Weight is very similar, storage volume insignificant and to illistrate cycle time

-MG42 firing a round 1/4" longer than the .308 (8mm mauser) had a rate of fire of 1200rpm (typical, could be tuned down to 900 or up to 1500 depending on the gun...
-M1919 AN/M2 firing the .30-06 (1/4" longer than 8mm mauser and 1/2" longer than 7.62x51) had a rate of fire of 1200-1500rpm
-M60 500-650
-M240 750-950
-M73 500-625

Ammunition length has little to nothing to do with rate of fire.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I think that the 168SMK is a great bullet, and that its only downfall is the fact that the .308 lacks the ability to drive it satisfactorily to 1kyd. The .30-'06 does not suffer that deficiency.

Greg
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I absolutely love the 30-06. Like everybody said, it can drive the heavier 30 cal bullets at satisfactory velocities, while giving great barrel life and not totally punishing recoil as the 300 mag. I also think I have read in a hunting magazine that the 30-06 has been used to take every species of big game land animal in the world. Definitely a performer.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caeli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true. Stability has more to do with barrel twist rate and BC coupled with velocity. Guys are pushing 220gr bullets well out to 1500yds with very consistent results.



Show me, also, is there a way to estimate impact at the point of impact? </div></div>

LOL the loads Army, Marine and Navy snipers are running in the XM2010, Mk13

Mk248 Mod 1.

It might not be a bad idea to do some more reading before posting... At least if the responses are going to be with such self-assurance and bravado. </div></div>

Bravado? I think you misunderstand, I said "show me" and I meant it, I wasn't being cocky, I want to see YOUR targets from 1500+ yards, and YOUR chrono. Don't sent me some fancy designation for an M24 (Yes I know it's supposedly an entirely new system, but honestly, is it?) and an experimental ammo that holds supersonic out past 1400 yards (supposedly) and don't tell me that "maybe should do some reading before post" I'd much rather spend my time shooting than reading but as it were I spend most of my time reading a goddamn procedural law textbook so I think I do quite enough reading thank you very much.

I think if you weren't trying to be an asshole instead of assuming that I was being cocky and not just using the least number of words possible you would have directed me instead to this page

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1372600

which I found shortly after posting my original reply to your post, or maybe telling me that it was Obermeyer 5R rifling would have been nice, but no, instead of trying to be the better person you just dug right in at my level didn't you?

Which of course leads to my next question though in some ways my first question if I had been clearer on what I was getting at: Many of the reports are throwing out chamber pressures well in excess of 68k psi but as I recall isn't the maximum safe operating pressure for the cartridge somewhat lower than that (64k psi?) I mean I know we can hot load all we want but for the volume that we're going to go to what is the probability of a failure?
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

I hunt quite a bit and a couple years ago I picked up a Kimber Montana in 308 for a backpack deer hunt. Prior to that, I always hunted with a 300 or 06. The light weight of the Kimber and its' short and handy charateristics led me to it and kept me with it. Since that deer hunt, I've used it successfully on game up to and including Black Bear and Moose. I don't shoot at game past 500 yards mostly because I can almost always get closer. With the lower recoil, I can watch the bullets impact and if needed, a follow up shot is much faster as your sight picture barely changes. 308 is a bad ass little round! It will launch 140's at a pretty good clip and 165 Accubonds have worked perfectly for the bigger stuff. I still have a 300 win but it has had a lonely existence since the 308 came into my life. Mark Bansner builds some nice stuff. He built the 300 win I mentioned earlier as well as a 375 RUM and a 458 Lott. If you can buy one of his rifles for $800 bucks, I'd jump on it. His stocks usually cost that much. That 300 win he built me was over $5k.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which of course leads to my next question though in some ways my first question if I had been clearer on what I was getting at: Many of the reports are throwing out chamber pressures well in excess of 68k psi but as I recall isn't the maximum safe operating pressure for the cartridge somewhat lower than that (64k psi?) I mean I know we can hot load all we want but for the volume that we're going to go to what is the probability of a failure?</div></div>

I have gotten incidental reports back from friends/contacts in the field that the Mk248 Mod 1 is overpressure, especially in warm environments.

As a result most of them won't touch it with a stick if they get the choice. Having something that might lockup the bolt during contact vs. something that is lower performance but combat proven for decades is a no-brainer choice to them.

I can't say that I would disagree with that logic in any way.
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

Oh geez. And...the 308 vs 30-06 argument will never end. The 30-06 is the max recoil the average person can shoot very well. The 308 is the max recoil the average person can shoot very well ALL DAY LONG. No it will never be the 30-06, but it was never meant to be. I love and adore 308( and I own a few), but I still believe the 30-06 is the overall best cartridge around the globe, even though I don't own one. Gonna have to get one someday just because....
 
Re: .30'06 vs .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my neck of the woods, one can strike a conversation real fast about 243 Win vs 25-06.....can get heated at times. </div></div>
Hmmmmm......guess someone must start that topic!