300wm VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

[timelinex]

I had a mini debate on a different forum about cartridges for long range. The guy(a very reputable member with a lot of posts) insisted that the 300 win mag is more accurate and better at long range. I don't think he has alot of personal experience shooting at long range, but instead bases it of other reasons...

His two arguments were that
1. No 1000 yard benchrest shooters use 33 cal bullets, but instead most use 30 cal bullets.
I told him that 1000 yards is not the same thing as 1500+ yards, just as different bullets are used at 100 yards compared to 1000

2. He claims that the army recently did a test of 300wm vs 338lm accuracy at 1500 yards and the army concluded that at 1500 yards the 300wm is more accurate, and that is why they are using that cartridge for their long range rigs.

I noted that the army doesn't choose their equipment solely based on performance. Its based on economic reasons and other reasons as well. So even if they chose the 300wm, it doesn't necessarily mean it was bc it was more accurate and maybe he just assumed they chose it for its accuracy.

Personally, I dont know anyone who chooses a 300wm instead of a 338lm for 1500+ yards. Many people use the 300wm succesfully at that distance, but the reason they use it is that its just what they have. They don't do 1500+ too often so the 300wm is a great compromise.

So, what do you guys think? Our discussion was about 1500 yrds and mile+.

 

[sinister]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

The US Army still hasn't written down their doctrinal sniper requirements for the 21st century. They are literally stumbling their way into capability.

The United States Special Operations Command documented what they want in a 1500 Meter capability, as well as a body-armor defeating requirement. The Army and Marines are waiting to see what SOCOM buys. There should be an announcement on the USSOCOM Precision Sniper Rifle decision this year.

The .300 Winchester Magnum in the M2010 is the Army's formal bridge to next capability.

The Navy has a solid investment in the .300 Winchester Magnum and didn't want to go to the .33 Magnum. US Army Special Operations Command set the requirement and told them "You can either come along with us or stay with the .300 -- but these are OUR requirements."

 

[jbailey]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Get Bryan Litz's new book - Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting. Entire chapter on this very subject. His conclusion, based on extensively computer program analysis-

300Win Mag loaded with Berger's 230gr OTM outperforms the 338 Lapua at 1000-1500 meters when the 338 is loaded with SMKs, Scenars and the lighter Berger Hybrid and is literally right below the 338 loaded with 300gr Berger Hybrid. This is on hit percentage of first rounds for an average shooter (elite stud shooters might be able to eek out higher % with the 338).

Conclusion - they are very very close.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

So what both of you guys said backs up exactly what I said then.

The army is not and never was a role model for whats 'the best'. They have alot more variables to deal with than just performance.

I haven't read bryan litz's new book but it all sounds right. When you compare the absolute best bullets of the 300wm to the absolute best of the 338, the 338 wins. And thats up to 1500 yards. at over that, I'm sure a more clear victor arises.

 

[sinister]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

The 300 lacks a little in the body armor defeat capability for bullet weight and kinetics at the same range. Not the same requirement.

You can poke a hole through paper, on call with your desired aim and impact points, but the bullet itself may be required to do some work.

Look at the designations for US military .300 Winchester Magnum ammunition and you will find DODIC A191 and Mark 248 -- both naval designations since the Crane Naval Surface Weapons activity does the testing and certification for USSOCOM -- not the Army.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Agreed on the terminal ballistics front. Just hitting the target isn't enough for .mil users

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get Bryan Litz's new book - Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting. Entire chapter on this very subject. His conclusion, based on extensively computer program analysis-

300Win Mag loaded with Berger's 230gr OTM outperforms the 338 Lapua at 1000-1500 meters when the 338 is loaded with SMKs, Scenars and the lighter Berger Hybrid and is literally right below the 338 loaded with 300gr Berger Hybrid. This is on hit percentage of first rounds for an average shooter (elite stud shooters might be able to eek out higher % with the 338).


Conclusion - they are very very close.

</div></div>

Running the 230 otm at 3014 fps with a 30" Broughton 5c and a trued 700 action. 4640 ft/lb at muzzle. Shoots like this at 505 yards...

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

I'm no expert, but I have had my 300WM with Hor 225's going 2836fps head to head against a few 338LM using both 250 SMK, & 300 Hybrids. I posted a thread a while ago on it. But we warmed up @ 1490yd, & worked out to 1920yd (LRF ranged), & had the last shot @ a guessed 2100yd.(LRF wouldnt range that far) & my 300WM was the equal to both the 338's 'till we crossed the 2000 yd mark. I might have had a slight edge in accuracy , but I am also a little more experienced than they were, with more time with my 1 rifle. Past 2000yd we couldn't see my splash out there. Maybe my 225's were tumbling, I don't think so, or since we were guessing on dope I might have been that far off, I can't say. The 300Hyb with a couple shots to get on target was right in there. They splashed so much bigger than mine, it was easy to find them, & we called corrections, & got him on target in 3 shots. Obviously the energy difference was dramatic, but as far as pure accuracy I think they are evenly matched. I need a little more elevation, & wind than the 300 HYB did of course. Any difference out that far is going to be the shooter, & quality of the equipment/load.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm no expert, but I have had my 300WM with Hor 225's going 2836fps head to head against a few 338LM using both 250 SMK, & 300 Hybrids. I posted a thread a while ago on it. But we warmed up @ 1490yd, & worked out to 1920yd (LRF ranged), & had the last shot @ a guessed 2100yd.(LRF wouldnt range that far) & my 300WM was the equal to both the 338's 'till we crossed the 2000 yd mark. I might have had a slight edge in accuracy , but I am also a little more experienced than they were, with more time with my 1 rifle. Past 2000yd we couldn't see my splash out there. Maybe my 225's were tumbling, I don't think so, or since we were guessing on dope I might have been that far off, I can't say. The 300Hyb with a couple shots to get on target was right in there. They splashed so much bigger than mine, it was easy to find them, & we called corrections, & got him on target in 3 shots. Obviously the energy difference was dramatic, but as far as pure accuracy I think they are evenly matched. I need a little more elevation, & wind than the 300 HYB did of course. Any difference out that far is going to be the shooter, & quality of the equipment/load. </div></div>
To be fair... Experience and skill trumps equipment.... I'm sure there are those out there that can hold a group at 1500 yards with a 308... Which not every can do with even a 338... So I'm not sure if your experience is more of a signal of your skill rather than the 300vs338

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

This is certainly possible, but the guys I shot with weren't slouches behind the trigger either. What I'm saying is my load may have been more consistent than theirs by a fraction. I don't think either is inherently more accurate than the other. The 338's bc/bullet weight give it a ballistic advantage, but the new heavy 30's have nearly caught up. Pure accuracy gun vs gun all else being equal the one with the more consistent load will prevail.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm no expert, but I have had my 300WM with Hor 225's going 2836fps head to head against a few 338LM using both 250 SMK, & 300 Hybrids. I posted a thread a while ago on it. But we warmed up @ 1490yd, & worked out to 1920yd (LRF ranged), & had the last shot @ a guessed 2100yd.(LRF wouldnt range that far) & my 300WM was the equal to both the 338's 'till we crossed the 2000 yd mark. I might have had a slight edge in accuracy , but I am also a little more experienced than they were, with more time with my 1 rifle. Past 2000yd we couldn't see my splash out there. Maybe my 225's were tumbling, I don't think so, or since we were guessing on dope I might have been that far off, I can't say. The 300Hyb with a couple shots to get on target was right in there.
They splashed so much bigger than mine, it was easy to find them, & we called corrections, & got him on target in 3 shots. Obviously the energy difference was dramatic, but as far as pure accuracy I think they are evenly matched. I need a little more elevation, & wind than the 300 HYB did of course. Any difference out that far is going to be the shooter, & quality of the equipment/load. </div></div>

To be fair... Experience and skill trumps equipment.... I'm sure there are those out there that can hold a group at 1500 yards with a 308... Which not every can do with even a 338... So I'm not sure if your experience is more of a signal of your skill rather than the 300vs338</div></div>


I don't know about you but while I agree that skill and experience are very very important, if your rifle won't shoot 1/4 to 1/2 moa at 100 then the likelihood of even hitting at elr goes down exponentially. I'd rather have a very good shooting rifle that shoots 1/2 moa to 500. That's where your skill and experience will be improved. The notion that equipment is trumped by skill and experience is a debatable one. That's why I like to have both

 

[jrob300]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

As the first couple posters pointed out, our fascination with all things military can simply take us back in time 5, 10 or 15 years.

If we are simply talking accuracy, then at 1500 and 1760 in calm conditions, I cannot think of a reason that one would be more accurate than the other... all else being equal. Whip up the wind a bit and the best .338 bullet will have a slight advantage over the best .30.

Now.. start talking about downrange energy... spot misses, movement on steel or need to do harm, and the .338 gets the obvious nod. But if we're just limited to shooting for fun to a mile, 300WM gets my vote every time based solely on economics.

John

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Agree. When I say my load might have been more consistent than thiers, I mean my load has shot .192" 5 rnd group @ 100 yds. Thiers may have only been .250"+/-. I don't know. I have hit 5 for 5 shots on a 15" rock @ 1500 yds with witnesses. Skill, along with good equipment, can do extraordinary things. I will say that nobody would have wanted to be a rock out there with any of us shooting. We even got a 6X47L on target @ 1500 yds that day. Wasn't as consistent as my 300WM, & needed 10 moa wind where I was holding 4 moa, but the little 115 DTAC did well too.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Maybe this will help show differences in power and range. 230 Berger pushed to extreme vs a moderately loaded 300 Berger hybrid

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Yep. Those 300's do fly. Kinda impressed with the energy too. At 1600 yd I'm reading the 300 Hyb has about maybe 1200 ft/lbs, where the 230 only has about 800 ft/lbs.(like having an extra 45 ACP at the same time) Like I said, the 338 has a ballistic advantage for sure when energy counts. But the elevation curve looks about the same. With the 230 possibly having a flatter trajectory @ 2000 yd. Hard to tell by the range on the two graphs. Of course the 300's can be pushed past 2800 pretty easy. I'd like to run the 230's in my 300WM, but for the price they can keep them. I'll stick with the Hornady's.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Here's an even better one.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Very evenly matched. Energy not withstanding. Of course a 300WM isn't going to get 3000+ fps with a 230. That 30/375R of yours is a beast. The 338 will have an advantage with variable winds, but I can't be convinced that it's a more accurate platform than the 300WM at distance.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Very evenly matched. Energy not withstanding. Of course a 300WM isn't going to get 3000+ fps with a 230. That 30/375R of yours is a beast. The 338 will have an advantage with variable winds, but I can't be convinced that it's a more accurate platform than the 300WM at distance.</div></div>

I beg to differ. 30" broughton 5c is pushing them 3015 fps. .300 win mag

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

Hmmm. I'm getting 2836fps from a Kreiger 28" & 225 Honady. And thats with moly. What is the bearing surface on the 230's. I have seen a few guys post some MV in the 2900+ with the 230's. There must be a reason they are fast.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

The barrel for one thing. Broughtons are known for higher speed. Plus the 30" 's. not sure what the bearing surface is. But I'm running them with Retumbo And the SHOOT

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

OK. I thought you had the 30/375R with 30" brl. My bad.
I have used Retumbo as well as H-1000, & went with H-1000 for the better groups. Lost about 30fps, but got groups down to sub .2" also it's cleaner with almost no muzzle flash, or smoke.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

I'm running the 230's at 3050 out of a NM 40° Improved. 30" 10 twist Brux using N570. I could get more out of them but, I don't want to kill the brass.

I had a Edge shooting 300 SMK's at 2870 and was looking for similar ballistics out of a 30 cal. I couldn't believe the reduction in recoil when I started shooting the 230's. I've since sold the Edge.

I shoot steel so I wasn't needing the additional energy of the 300's but, the difference is easy to recognize. The performance out to 1 mile is great! We used to be able to shoot out to 2400 but, that went away...

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: 300 win mag VS 338lm accuracy at ELR

I've thought many times about going up to a 338 Edge, but for my use as a steel puncher, & LR hunting rig I can't justify the cost.

 

[jasent]

Great thread...still love my 300wm.

 

[Dogtown]

This is one of the main reasons I often try to steer shooters who want to make the jump from .308WIN to .338LM, to .300WM instead. It's more economical to shoot and unless you plan to shoot past 1400-1500 yards, you won't see too much of a difference.

 

[arbogb06]

Wise man once stated for cars, boats, guns, etc.; "There is no replacement for displacement."

Having said that I own a .338 LM and personally I have no need for the gun as all my shooting is inside 1,000 yards and I mainly hunt mid-size game. Is it over-kill yes, but at the same time I have gotten accustomed to my .338 LM and if I had somewhere to shoot 1500 yards I would and know the rig is capable. Somedays I wish it was a .300 wm due to more bullet availability and more economical to shoot but it is what it is. Only reason I have the gun is because I traded gun for gun with a guy and in my eyes it was a steal on my end.

 

[timelinex]

How much are you guys reloading 300WM for?? I know my 338 loadings will cost me around $1.25, and thats considering only 6 reloads from my brass. Its hard to believe that the 300wm can be that much cheaper to reload for, and that's usually the main reason I hear for 300wm over 338.

Obviously if your shooting factory ammo, 300wm is clear winner.. but reloading really levels the $$ playing field.

 

[Macmathews]

I would love to see the break down on 1.25$ per shot on the 338 !
That dosent seem even remotely possible

Kyle

 

[Bigwheels]

Figuring 10 reloads on my Win brass (I have up to 8 firings now) I shoot for .73/rnd.

 

[timelinex]

I would love to see the break down on 1.25$ per shot on the 338 !
That dosent seem even remotely possible

Kyle

This assumes prices I paid at the end of 2012 and all includes tax/shipping.

300gr bergers: 0.67
retumbo: 0.26
winchester 215m primers: 0.04

Thats 97 cents a round, and then the variable is brass. Lapua brass can usually be found for 270 per 100. Assuming a moderate estimate of 6 reloads, thats 45 cents a round. Assuming the 10 reloads that many people get, thats 27 cents a round.

So I was slightly off on my estimate for 6 reloads on a piece of brass. But as you can see it is still between $1.25 and $1.5 a round.

Keep in mind this is with the best of the best components at regular BULK prices. Start using cheaper brass and a bullet like the 300 smk, which is perfectly suitable for most applications, and it becomes much cheaper. Also, if you wait for good sales and buy in bulk at the time, you can get even better prices as well. You can get down to almost $1 per round.

Obviously currently prices in the last two months have been a little higher on some of these components, but only marginally so, and just wait a couple more months and it will be back.

 

[timelinex]

Figuring 10 reloads on my Win brass (I have up to 8 firings now) I shoot for .73/rnd.

So about 2/3 the cost. Not bad. But still backs up the myth that 338 is unrealistically expensive to shoot compared to other calibers. Im wondering, is your .73/rnd include prices in the last year and with tax/shipping? I know sometimes people give their price per round and it turns out its because they stockpiled components from X amount of years ago, when it was much cheaper.

I just started shooting handgun, and let me tell you. That is WAY more expensive to shoot than my lapua. Yea it might only be 20-40 cents per round depending on caliber, but volume is way different. You dont shoot 100+ rounds in your average long range shoot. But shooting off 100 rounds in the handgun is super easy

 

[Bigwheels]

Doesn't inc. shipping, but is todays prices. I buy bulk, so shipping won't add much anyway. It would be more if I switched to the 230 Berger tho.


Just re calculated per 1000 rnds loading brass 10X, @ todays prices via Powder Valley. Came up with $.61/rnd not inc. shipping.

 

[timelinex]

Doesn't inc. shipping, but is todays prices. I buy bulk, so shipping won't add much anyway. It would be more if I switched to the 230 Berger tho.


Just re calculated per 1000 rnds loading brass 10X, @ todays prices via Powder Valley. Came up with $.61/rnd not inc. shipping.

Whats your breakdown for that? Looking at the 230gr bergers, they are like 53 cents a round! Shipping/tax is important too, because even buying in bulk that could easily add 5-10 cents per round. Shipping gets more expensive the more you buy, so except for hazmat charges, it isn't always absorbed by buying in bulk. For example it would be cost $1.15 per round using powder valley prices not including shipping, and thats with bergers. Make that an even $1 using smk's and hornady brass.

 

[Bigwheels]

I don't pay for Berger bullets. I switched to Hornady 225 hpbt for $.30/ rnd.

 

[P7id10t]

This is a great post. Always wanted a 300 WM, came across a Steyr Prohunter for $800 but bought a DPMS 308 instead.
Figured the 300WM was too similar to my 7mm Weatherby and every man I knew who had a 300 never used it.
But, I do LOVE my 338 LM.

I got lucky on some deals, all purchased in the last two months -- here's what my next 1,000 rounds of 338LM will cost me:

Once fired Lapua Brass, 8 uses	$ 0.21
RL22 Powder	$ 0.35
300gr Berger or Scenar Bullets	$ 0.53
CCI or Winchester LRM	$ 0.04
	$ 1.13

<tbody>
</tbody>

Pleasure and peace of mind gained by reloading: priceless....

 

[Quickoz]

Man you guys have it good if you can complain about paying 53c a projie. I pay that for 175gr smk in 308. Bergers are around 60c a pop. I am in Australia by the way.

This is a great thread. Id love a 338LM but a 300wm will do all I want if I use a 30" barrel. My plans are to shoot to 1500yds with it bit mainly for 800-1200yd work. Was going to run 220gr smk and will also try 230gr Bergers.

 

[Macmathews]

This is a great post. Always wanted a 300 WM, came across a Steyr Prohunter for $800 but bought a DPMS 308 instead.
Figured the 300WM was too similar to my 7mm Weatherby and every man I knew who had a 300 never used it.
But, I do LOVE my 338 LM.

I got lucky on some deals, all purchased in the last two months -- here's what my next 1,000 rounds of 338LM will cost me:

Once fired Lapua Brass, 8 uses	$ 0.21
RL22 Powder	$ 0.35
300gr Berger or Scenar Bullets	$ 0.53
CCI or Winchester LRM	$ 0.04
	$ 1.13

<tbody>
</tbody>

Pleasure and peace of mind gained by reloading: priceless....

Where are you getting berger or scenars for .53 a round ?

 

[P7id10t]

Bullets: Boards and Craigslist.
Brass: Barrett (IiRC) and gift of 2 boxes of match ammo from my best friend
Primers/powder: local OTS

Best deal was an older gent in Portland getting rid of 50 years of reloading supplies

I find, in general, the hide is the most expensive (close to retail) but there are screaming deals to be had- you just have to get lucky in your timing.

 

[P7id10t]

Man you guys have it good if you can complain about paying 53c a projie. I pay that for 175gr smk in 308. Bergers are around 60c a pop. I am in Australia by the way.

This is a great thread. Id love a 338LM but a 300wm will do all I want if I use a 30" barrel. My plans are to shoot to 1500yds with it bit mainly for 800-1200yd work. Was going to run 220gr smk and will also try 230gr Bergers.

This is America where complaining is the third best indoor sport behind drinking and shagging.

 

[Tonmarchelli]

very cool read

 

[458win]

The guys a tool who reads to much on the internet...instead of shooting.

To say a certain caliber is more accurate then another is bullshit. Rifle build and component quality are what determine a rounds accuracy not because its a 300 winchester VS a 338.

I am sure the army does a lot of test and make everything available to every Joe blow that ask.... If he thinks a 300wm will give him an advantage good for him.

I had a mini debate on a different forum about cartridges for long range. The guy(a very reputable member with a lot of posts) insisted that the 300 win mag is more accurate and better at long range. I don't think he has alot of personal experience shooting at long range, but instead bases it of other reasons...

His two arguments were that
1. No 1000 yard benchrest shooters use 33 cal bullets, but instead most use 30 cal bullets.
I told him that 1000 yards is not the same thing as 1500+ yards, just as different bullets are used at 100 yards compared to 1000

2. He claims that the army recently did a test of 300wm vs 338lm accuracy at 1500 yards and the army concluded that at 1500 yards the 300wm is more accurate, and that is why they are using that cartridge for their long range rigs.

I noted that the army doesn't choose their equipment solely based on performance. Its based on economic reasons and other reasons as well. So even if they chose the 300wm, it doesn't necessarily mean it was bc it was more accurate and maybe he just assumed they chose it for its accuracy.

Personally, I dont know anyone who chooses a 300wm instead of a 338lm for 1500+ yards. Many people use the 300wm succesfully at that distance, but the reason they use it is that its just what they have. They don't do 1500+ too often so the 300wm is a great compromise.

So, what do you guys think? Our discussion was about 1500 yrds and mile+.

 

[Rem40xb1]

338 edge is the best

 

[Dutch405]

I know that I'm bumping up a month old post, but this is very helpful information. I use to pay over a buck a round for a factory 175gr FGMM round, so when I here that y'all are claiming roughly $1.15- $1.25 per round for .338 lap mag reload it makes me more excited about possibly jumping from .308 to .338. I live in Oklahoma, and for the most part, I only have a 1,600 yard range to utilize, but it is very windy here year round and I think that a larger 300 gr bullet would help me when shooting in 15-25 mph winds.

 

[bruceallmgty]

Get Bryan Litz's new book - Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting. Entire chapter on this very subject. His conclusion, based on extensively computer program analysis-

300Win Mag loaded with Berger's 230gr OTM outperforms the 338 Lapua at 1000-1500 meters when the 338 is loaded with SMKs, Scenars and the lighter Berger Hybrid and is literally right below the 338 loaded with 300gr Berger Hybrid. This is on hit percentage of first rounds for an average shooter (elite stud shooters might be able to eek out higher % with the 338).

Conclusion - they are very very close.

I thought the 300 win was updated as a stop gap until the army can get the funding for a 338 rifle system.

 

[cgbills]

Sorry for bumping up the old thread, but. So what barrel length are we talking about on a 300wm to hang with a 338 to around 1500? I ask because getting into a factory 700 5R in 300wm can be cheaply, but that is a 26in barrel. If I am shooting 1750 yrds max, would a 300 700 5R loaded with with the right bullet be the most economical way to go?

 

[Bigwheels]

Mine is a 28", but some are running 30's. As for the most economical, I think it is by far the most economical magnum for ELR.

 

[thrusty]

Good read! Makes me want a 300WM even more. Would love to have the 338LM...but factor in the ammo components, availability (and price) of factory ammo and using my TBAC 30P-1 suppressor.....it's a no-brainer for the 300WM.

 

[MSArmament]

There is a good article on this in Bryan Litz last book he shows what .300 wm and what .338 with do in a face off.

 

[MSArmament]

H1000 with 230 Bergers is awesome out my .300 WM.

 

[Bigwheels]

My recipe as well.