308 175 smk Varget troubles

[djthemac]

Howdy all,
I recently started reloading for my remington 700 sps tactical and I have run into some problems.

I am using
Winchester brass (2 firings now)
Remington 91/2 primers
175 grain Sierra Match King
Varget Powder

When I first started rolling my own, I was getting excellent accuracy with 40.5 - 41.5 grains of varget (for me anyway, .4 @100 yards) After reading handloading databases, it seems as though most guys are running 43-45grain. I have been slowly been uploading in .5 grain increments, to today's batch of 43.5 grains. I have occasionally been able to get some isolated .5" shot groups, but I am generally running around 1.25" groups at 100 yards.

I have heard varget is pretty sensitive to specific accurate loads but it has been pretty fustrating so far.

Should I:
1) switch to another powder, I have some reloader 15 or VV
2) continue to upload, to the 44.5grain mark
3) go back to 40.5-41.5 grain and call it good?

 

[uafgrad]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

If you were getting .4" grouping, why not stick with that charge and play with COAL a little to see where it goes

 

[djthemac]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uafgrad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you were getting .4" grouping, why not stick with that charge and play with COAL a little to see where it goes

</div></div>

good point, and I forgot to mention,

I have been seating my cartridges to 2.80-2.807 OAL

I have not been using the OGIVE for seating.

I have read that Remington specifically makes a long bullet jump distance for legal protection, but i dont know for sure

 

[Guest]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Keep stepping up the charge, until you hit pressure. Most loads will have between 2 an 3 nodes your stick will like. One will always be at a low charge, one near the top and the last one somewhere in between or close to one of the others. It's all about your barrels harmonics, which changes with different bullet weights, an exit times. When you get the powder charge where you want it, fine tune with OAL.

I run 45.2 Varget with a 22" tube.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djthemac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should I:
1) switch to another powder, I have some reloader 15 or VV
2) continue to upload, to the 44.5grain mark
3) go back to 40.5-41.5 grain and call it good? </div></div>

Continue to work up slowly watching pressure signs along the way.

Switch to smaller charge-weight increment (say 0.3) so you don't miss the accuracy node. Then after you find the accuracy node candidate, survey the window in 0.1 gr increments and then pick the final CW as the mid-point of the window that shoots well.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Varget likes to be near the top of load call outs,
I'm runing 44.0 w/175SMK.
You need to start checking you bullet run out. Should have a T.I.R. of no more than .003 and less the better.
I'm NOT a fan of WW .308 brass, BTW.
LG

 

[Rookie]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I load 44.9gr but am putting bullets at 2.835 COAL. The longer seating will reduce pressure.

 

[parker_chp]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I shoot a 700 sps varmit. My load for the 175smk is 44gr varget with the ogive @ 2.232,lapua brass and fed210m.Their runnning 3/4 moa or better.Mine will shoot well @ 100yds with 43gr but the velosity is off.seems they like about 2610.I have used win brass with cci200s but the groups open up about like you are talking about.I also get good results from the 168smk w/ 44gr and same seating depth.they have proven 1/2 moa or better.but I think accuacy is more of a average than a constant so look for that.

The first thing I would do (besides switching primers) is seat the bullets in and out .010(upto .030 each way) on a 43gr charge take the best group and run a ladder. If you want a good base line try 42.2gr 4064 with the ogive @ 2.230.THe first 2 groups I ever shot out of my rifle were in the .5s with 3 in.182 in one and 3 in .348 in the other. Good luck.

 

[djthemac]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Thanks for the replies!

I would like to use lapua brass but its a bit spendy. What is the ladder test, and why are the benefits of other primers? (i see you guys are using CCI and federal) primers better then the remington ones?

 

[rrflyer]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

whats your velocity at 41gns?

Must be round 2200ish......


I use 44 varget and get 2530

 

[Dionis]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Try Lapua brass...

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I know of two 308 SPS Tactical's that shoot great with;

175 smk @ 2.825 oal
varget 44.5g
winchester brass
primers of your choice.

FPS 2550

 

[d_striker]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rookie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load 44.9gr but am putting bullets at 2.835 COAL. The longer seating will reduce pressure. </div></div>

I thought longer seating in rifle cartridges increased pressure.

 

[Guest]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Longer seating of the bullet decreases pressure. When you are touching the lands with a big load, pressure will spike, depending many things.


djthemac,

You don't need to change brass, you need to prep some more than others, though. Also once you start reloading once fired or more, you "Have" to bring the inside of the necks back to clean brass w/o any carbon in it or run out and neck tension are out the window, two items that have to remain consistent in quality ammo. Then at some point you will need to anneal it as well.

Once you have done it long enough, your loading press will talk to you, while your seating the bullet. Everything you need to know about your brass comes from your eyes, and seating feel.

 

[Gruff]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Varget sucks. IMR 4064, RE-15, or N150 and better primers than Remington.

 

[locked&loaded]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

175 SMK
.005 off the lands
43.6g Varget
BR2 primers
Winchester brass
2630fps. (Chrony crono.)

Works for my 175 Berger hunting VLD's as well.

 

[parker_chp]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Good brass is worth its weight in gold.I shoot lapua straight out of the box, its comprable shooting preped win.I have 12 reloadings out of 1 box (i anneal). primers I think are personal preferance . there cheap so try different ones . There is a good discription of ladder tests here and on 6mmbr.I prefer to shoot more than 1 round per string as it makes it easyer to interperat the results.

 

[parker_chp]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

btw are you shooting the factory stock?

 

[RobG]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I could not get acceptable accuracy with Varget. Velocity was good, however, at around 45 grains with the 175 smk and Fed 210m. You could work up in charge weight until you encounter pressure signs and see if you obtain acceptable accuracy. OAL, unless you want to single load, is not going to be much over the standard 2.800 due to mag length restrictions. Even at 2.850 I was having problems feeding through the mag; the tips were hanging up. I tried R15 with decent accuracy but, poor velocity. I eventually settled on Alliant 2000mr, achieving good velocity (2650 ave) and good accuracy (.5 moa) with a max charge. Gun is stock Rem LTR, btw.

 

[djthemac]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I have read about the ladder tests, and I plan to switch primers to federal/br2. Should I stick with varget, or try another load? Seems like people have mixed opinions. Also is a chronograph neccessary? I am shooting with the stock 700 sps tactical hogue


Also in regards to using the ladder method, it seems that the first round is used to determine safe operating pressure loads. In the 6br write up the stage two loads were all within 1.5 grains of his maxium from round 1. Is this what I should be using as well?

 

[RobG]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Varget is a go to powder in .308 and since you are on the low end charge wise, I'd still work with it some more and see what happens. IMO, a chrono is a necessity when reloading.

 

[tpr564]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Varget is a fine powder. You can chase the "perfect" load for a long time and spend a bunch of money and time while not really improving yourself as a shooter. If you've already achieved .4" groups, I'd say go back to that, chrony a batch so you can make an accurate dope chart, then get out there and do some shooting.

 

[parker_chp]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

if you are running ladders I dont think cronies are neccessary because you are going to find out what groups best anyway,but its nice info to have.As far as the 1st round it does a few things,max safe load, nodes(you will prob. hit 3), and it can give you a good idea of the over all performance of a powder.if it groups desent in the first string it will prob. group good when refined.Ive run 3 powders at a time in the first string.

Here's an ex. load 41-45gr in half gr increamants thats 9 rounds(if you load 2 ea. it can save some heartache on a pulled shot).Lets say 42.5,43,hit and 44,44.5 hit.load 3 ea. 42.5,42.7(or 8)43,43.2 and 43.8,44,44.2,44.5,44.7. now you are looking for vertical stringing ( shoot round robin).when I find one I like I usually load above and below it for a while, say 30 rnds,10 @ 43.8,10@ 44,10@ 44.2 to find which averages the best.plus it keeps me from getting frusterated if one doesnt shoot like i hoped.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

If YOU can't shoot, learn. If YOU can, you need to streamline your development process...

1. Load two identical ladders on the lands. Shoot them round robin at 300 yards.
2. Identify nodes, and load three or four 5 shot groups around the nodes.
3. Pick the best group that provides adequate/reasonable velocity for your purpose - usually, faster is more desirable.
4. Load 5 shot groups 10 thou off, 20 off, 30 off, 40 off the lands. Pick the best. If they were only getting better, load more farther off and try.
5. Youre done
6. Unless you want to try more powder again to find a little more speed. Dont do this step if you havent already found something REALLY good.

If you do this process and havent found something good, try a different powder ir bullet. This whole thing should NOT take more than 60 rounds.

Brass and brass prep arent the difference between shit and gold. Only the difference between shit and crap, or gold and platinum.

 

[vman]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Continue loading up. Try a ladder test out if you can.

 

[djthemac]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I ended up doing some special loads and using the OCW load development system.

I got good vertical consistency at 44.8 and 45.1 grains. This seems a bit hot with the lyman max load at 45.2+ but I think the larger Winchester brass capacity may make up for it.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djthemac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ended up doing some special loads and using the OCW load development system.

I got good vertical consistency at 44.8 and 45.1 grains. This seems a bit hot with the lyman max load at 45.2+ but I think the larger Winchester brass capacity may make up for it. </div></div>

Not surprising! But I wouldn't have told you to jump there!

I find no difference in my rifles between 44.8 and 45 though I tend toward the lower charge weight when using Federal or Lapua brass.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

+1 on this-much more consistent and lots of life if you neck-size only.

*Don't forget to bump the shoulders back with a body die when they become harder to chamber.

Varget worked fine in my rifle (low temp sensitivity in the winter), RE15 worked outstanding with higher velocities.

Next you may want to play with your seating depth-jump or no jump.

Good Luck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Ice 308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try Lapua brass... </div></div>

 

[johngfoster]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I shoot with Lapua brass. I found my best accuracy at 44.4gr Varget behind 175 SMKs. My chamber is a match chamber in a Bartlein 5R barrel (25") I'm getting around 2750 fps with this load too!

 

[djthemac]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Thanks for the info guys, very helpful, I was wondering if I could get some advice regarding my brass.

I have been noticing an ever so slight ring around the head of the case just in front of the web portion. I hesitate to even call it a ring, and it is not really a bulge. It just looks as though the portion towards the rim slopes up slightly, meets the ring, and then slopes down slightly infront of it, you have to hold it up the light to see. I first noticed this using light loads in the 42 grain range, and I hve not had any primer signs, including flattened/backed out/leaky even when loaded up to my current 44.9 grain. Is case head separation imminent or can I keep loading?

 

[wirehand]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I see that you are already doing OCW test

This has worked great for myself and countless others.
It also helps indentify a potential disruption of accuracy data in the scatter node.

The ring you are seeing is the difference in thickness of the case at the webb/sidewall junction.
If you are full length sizing, look into neck sizing.
This will let your brass fit the chamber and only size the part that is neccesary.
Until the case starts getting hard to chamber resist the full sizing regime.

You can check if you are experiancing case head sepreation ( unlikely at 2 firings at such a low charge ) by sliding a pick or bend paper clip down th case and if there is a dip at the case wall/base webb then you will know.

Also if there is no need to get out to more than say 600 with your anticipated target range a low charge weight should do fine as your found node is fine, this will also let your brass life bloom.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

I abandoned Varget back last Fall. It's too temperature and position sensitive. On one day I might have gotten .39" groups, and 2 weeks later I would get 1" groups just because it was 15 degrees warmer outside.

I switched to IMR 8208 XBR, and have not looked back. I can shoot the same accurate load in the Sahara mid summer, and use that exact load for Elk hunting in mid winter. No temperature sensitivity at all.

 

[stu2]

Re: 308 175 smk Varget troubles

Check your velocity with a chronograph. Not all guns shoot the same loads equally.