Range Report .308 at the range today

[Skinwalker74]

I have a Savage arms 10BA in .308.. Im shooting Federal BTHP 168gr Sierra Matchking ammo. I am zero at 100 yards. My question is while at the range i was told this rock on the side of the hill was shot with a range finder at 268 yards. The rock looked to be about 12x12 at that yardage. Accoring to the ballistics chart on the ammo box i should had to aimed roughly 10-11 inches high to hit center. I did just that and seemed to hit right where i was aiming. Decided to aim dead center of rock and with others watching thru scopes i hit dead center of the rock. Can anyone explain this or help me understand what has happened? I am fairly new to rifle shooting and to be honest that was really the first time i have shot at anything over 150 yards.This was also the 2nd time at the range with my 10BA. Thanks guys

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: .308 at the range today

were you shooting uphill? The angle you shoot at also determines the inclination of your drop.

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question is while at the range i was told this rock on the side of the hill was shot with a range finder at 268 yards.</div></div>That's not a question.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone explain this or help me understand what has happened?</div></div>No one here will ever know for sure, except to say that one of those two attempts was probably a bad shot.

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

Yes i was shooting uphill. Was a good bit uphill too..

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

and how can u be certain one of those 2 shots was bad?

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and how can u be certain one of those 2 shots was bad? </div></div>I can't be certain of anything you did. But we know that at the same distance you had two very different POA vs POI.

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

Does POA and POI mean Point of aim and point of impact?
If so then my POA was right where my POI was on both shots. Maybe i am missing something, like i said i am new to this and am trying to learn. Is it because i was shooting uphill? Is there anywhere on the net that i can read and learn about this stuff?

 

[roggom]

Re: .308 at the range today

If I read correctly OP's POI is the same as his POA.

OP if you are wondering why there was no apparent drop, it was because of the angle. Shooting at steep anlges will put your bullet high, negating the drop due to distance. Study the riflemans rule and angle cosine to get the correct adjusments.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wTSBcNgGMNo&feature=plcp"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wTSBcNgGMNo&feature=plcp" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

Maybe it's that your post isn't very easy to read...

Shot 1:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Accoring to the ballistics chart on the ammo box i should had to aimed roughly 10-11 inches high to hit center. I did just that and seemed to hit right where i was aiming.</div></div>Shot 2:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decided to aim dead center of rock and with others watching thru scopes i hit dead center of the rock.</div></div>
Right?

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

if ur not gonna be of any help then please stop posting replies. No one else seems to have a problem understanding what i am saying. Thank you..

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

Thank you for the video.. Watching it now..

 

[Ring]

Re: .308 at the range today

100y z = 3 to 4" drop at that distance
not 10

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if ur not gonna be of any help then please stop posting replies. No one else seems to have a problem understanding what i am saying. Thank you.. </div></div>You have no idea what other people understand and what they don't. But I get it: You take no responsibility for the fact that you can't communicate in writing because the real problem is someone else. That, and with the ten posts you have you're already too lazy to clarify what you wrote on a Thread that you yourself started in order to ask for help. No problem: I'll stop replying to you. Enjoy your stay here.

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if ur not gonna be of any help then please stop posting replies. No one else seems to have a problem understanding what i am saying. Thank you.. </div></div>You have no idea what other people understand and what they don't. But I get it: You take no responsibility for the fact that you can't communicate in writing because the real problem is someone else. That, and with the ten posts you have you're already too lazy to clarify what you wrote on a Thread that you yourself started in order to ask for help. No problem: I'll stop replying to you. Enjoy your stay here. </div></div>

Thank You and i will

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: .308 at the range today

Roggom hit the nail on the head steep angles need to be corrected for.

 

[okiefired]

Re: .308 at the range today

Graham's been here a lomg time and given a lot of good advice.....you're stay here would be a lot better if you listened to people like him. Good luck with you troubles.

okie

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

I am ready to listen to everyone. Thats why i posted here askng my questions. But what i didnt need was someone trying to be smart and make me look like a fool. He gave nothing to the posting except for smartass comments. What i was looking for was help and some knowledge from more experienced people than myself. I thank the ones that replied and helped me understand more about what was happening. Thank you again for the help.

 

[zmann]

Re: .308 at the range today

If you have a Smart Phone try downloading "Shooter" app and plug in some #'s. It also has a field for "angle" of shot or something like that....

 

[okiefired]

Re: .308 at the range today

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

This will help you figure bullet drop at distance. Just plug in your info, I've always found it to be quite accurate.

okie

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

Okie,

What he wrote was that for the first shot at the rock he aimed 4MOA high and hit center: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question is while at the range i was told this rock on the side of the hill was shot with a range finder at 268 yards. The rock looked to be about 12x12 at that yardage. Accoring to the ballistics chart on the ammo box i should had to aimed roughly 10-11 inches high to hit center. I did just that and seemed to hit right where i was aiming.</div></div>Then, for the second shot at the rock, he aimed center and hit center: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skinwalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decided to aim dead center of rock and with others watching thru scopes i hit dead center of the rock.</div></div>What are the chances that the rock moved sixty degrees to the horizon between the shots?

 

[lash]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I read correctly OP's POI is the same as his POA.

OP if you are wondering why there was no apparent drop, it was because of the angle. Shooting at steep anlges will put your bullet high, negating the drop due to distance. Study the riflemans rule and angle cosine to get the correct adjusments.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wTSBcNgGMNo&feature=plcp"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wTSBcNgGMNo&feature=plcp" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

</div></div>
+2 This is the answer.

Actually, continually educating oneself regarding ballistics is the broad answer. In your case, the specific answer has to do with the angle you were shooting at, along with any number of other variables, including your elevation, temperature, humidity, etc...but mostly your shooting angle.

 

[lash]

Re: .308 at the range today

Graham, you are right in that the OP could have clarified a bit, but sometimes not knowing the lingo makes it hard to do so.

After reading his original post a couple times, he does indicate that he hit POA both times, not the center of the rock both times.

My opinion.

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading his original post a couple times, he does indicate that he hit POA both times, not the center of the rock both times. My opinion. </div></div>Perhaps; or perhaps not. That it is far from clear is the problem. It doesn't change the fact that he's functionally illiterate and that, when I try to figure out and to clarify the garbage he writes, he cops the attitiude that I am the one with the problem.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In your case, the specific answer has to do with the angle you were shooting at, along with any number of other variables, including your elevation, temperature, humidity, etc...but mostly your shooting angle.</div></div>What is the effect of a change in altitude from 70 feet to 5000 feet on the POI at 268 yards?
What is the effect of a change in humidity from 0% to 100% on the trajectory at 268 yards?
What is the effect of a change in temperature from 10 degrees to 90 degrees on the DOPE?

 

[lash]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In your case, the specific answer has to do with the angle you were shooting at, along with any number of other variables, including your elevation, temperature, humidity, etc...but mostly your shooting angle.</div></div>What is the effect of a change in altitude from 70 feet to 5000 feet on the POI at 268 yards?
What is the effect of a change in humidity from 0% to 100% on the trajectory at 268 yards?
What is the effect of a change in temperature from 10 degrees to 90 degrees on the DOPE? </div></div>
Lol, you're right and I'm certainly not going to get into that with you, since any effect is negligible. I was merely trying to make the point to the OP that there is plenty to be learned about ballistics and that the question he asked is tough for anyone to answer without plenty more information he left out. That and the importance of continuing to learn all the time.

I am the furthest thing there is from being an expert on the subject and know just enough to be dangerous, as the saying goes.

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lash</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the furthest thing there is from being an expert on the subject and know just enough to be dangerous, as the saying goes.</div></div>I wasn't getting on your case. You brought-up a good thing to learn about environmental factors, and I took the opportunity to ask the questions hoping that people would run the numbers for themselves on their ballistic programs.

The point is: If you can't hold the data change, or the change in trajectory is within a bullet diameter, then that factor is not one to consider. Because practical precision rifle shooting is about applying what matters, ignoring what doesn't matter, and learning to tell the difference between the two.

 

[okiefired]

Re: .308 at the range today

Yeah Graham, I knew where you were coming from, I just thought you got a bit confused on his post which wasn't that hard to do. I got it that POA and POI where the same with both shots at 268 @ angle and evidentally also at 100 on level. I'm pretty sure shot angle @ 268 was mostly responsible for this but as you pointed out, many other things could contribute.....such as scope hight above bore.

okie

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

To negate a 4 MOA drop at that distance the angle would have had to be about 60 degrees. That's a hell of an angle at 268 yards - almost straight up - which is doubtful if he was at a range like he said that he was.

 

[okiefired]

Re: .308 at the range today

Well, 60* is 60* dosnt matter what distance but you're right...its extreem in any case and usually reserved for squirrel hunters and the like that really arent concerned with distance

. Like I said, I think angle coupled with other things caused the OP's confusion. Add that to the fact that some no nothing told him to hold 10 to 11" high at 268 and the probability that he saw a puff of dirt on the first shot to determin where he actually hit and its easy to see where his descrepensies came from.

okie

 

[LawnMM]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I read correctly OP's POI is the same as his POA.

OP if you are wondering why there was no apparent drop, it was because of the angle. Shooting at steep anlges will put your bullet high, negating the drop due to distance. Study the riflemans rule and angle cosine to get the correct adjusments. </div></div>

The angle doesn't negate drop. Gravity is constant. People get into trouble ranging angles because they range the point to point distance from their shooting position to their target. The problem is, gravity only has time to act on the bullet between the muzzle and the HORIZONTAL distance to the target, which is shorter than the point to point distance.

If you range point to point and its 750 yards, the horizontal distance may only be 575 yards. So in essence, you are shooting at 575 using 750 yard dope, that's why it hits high.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okie,

What he wrote was that for the first shot at the rock he aimed 4MOA high and hit center: </div></div>

I think this is the source of your confusion. My interpretation of his post was that he aimed 4MOA high, and hit 4MOA high, so he aimed center on the second shot and hit center.

To answer his question as to why his point of aim was point of impact at 268 yards...my answer is this. You are estimating the size of your target, and it's only that, a guess. So to start, it could have been bigger than your realize, hence giving you more 'fudge' room for what qualifies as a 'center hit'

Second, your difference in dope from 100 to 250 shouldn't be much. If you are still shooting MOA at 250 you could land the bullet anywhere withing a 5" circumference circle around the 'center' and that's already accounted for half the difference in drop at that distance. Add in factors like altitude and air density, and how those may have been different at your shooting location from where the manufacturer measured it and printed it on the box, and you can chew into 10 inches pretty quick. That's before we even get into variations in muzzle velocity, or shooter inconsistencies like improper parallax adjustment, trigger flinches, trigger slapping, etc.

Rich

 

[Graham]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">or shooter inconsistencies like improper parallax adjustment, trigger flinches, trigger slapping, etc.</div></div>I'm leaning toward improper execution of the fundamentals as the answer.

 

[Skinwalker74]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a Smart Phone try downloading "Shooter" app and plug in some #'s. It also has a field for "angle" of shot or something like that.... </div></div>

I have an iPhone but don't see that app. Is it called something different?

Also I apologize for all this. Didn't mean to start all this. Thank you to everyone that helped. Graham - I appreciate u trying to help and I except the fact that my post may have been hard for someone to understand. This all could of been avoided if u would have taken a different path in ur response. It boils down to newbies to forums are not given the respect from the forum users with 1000's of postings because of there lack of posts. But everyone has to start somewhere. We come here for help not to b looked down on for the lack of our knowledge. But I'm done with this. I will either continue here or look elsewhere for help. I want questions answered not critic on my grammer.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: .308 at the range today

Click this. Shooter should take you right to it from your iPhone.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: .308 at the range today

Does "Shooter" not support the Sierra 168 MK?

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: .308 at the range today

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does "Shooter" not support the Sierra 168 MK?</div></div>

Shows and calculates it in my version (iPhone). Your talking .308 right?

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: .308 at the range today

Yep. I can get from Barnes to Nosler and that's it . . .

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: .308 at the range today

I see that when you scroll on the right side where it has the letters that if you run your finger down to the w, it stops on nosler. You can keep scrolling if you just swipe the screen up and it will go all the way to the end of the list. I don't mean to insult your intelligence or anything but have you tried that? If so then maybe you might try deleting the app and reinstalling it.

 

[DanSavage]

Re: .308 at the range today

Skinwalker, the dope on the box is approximate,, your muzzle vel. may be higher, your scope height also comes into play as well as shooting up hill as mentioned. Don't sweat it, you need to find out for your self how far away the rock is as well the size of the rock. Go back and experiment some more!

Regards,
Dan