308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

[operatorj]

I am going to build a new rifle and I cannt decide what caliber I want. This will be my precision rifle for the PD and because i am suppling the rifle and ammo the Chief and the higher ups dont really care what I use as long as its nothing exotic. I was leaning towards the 260 just for something differen. What I would like to know is if the 260 has better stopping power out to 500+yds than the 308 out of a 20" barrel. I would also like it to be able to bang steel at 1000yds. Any info you can provide would be great, also anyother calibers you would suggest.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

260 is definately a hotter round, but factory ammo is a little harder to come by.

308 is plenty out to 1000 and the ammo is EVERYWHERE!!! for a work gun i would do 308.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: operator j</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was leaning towards the 260 just for something differen. </div></div>

My personal belief is to use a caliber that is "standard" for LE. Here are a couple questions I'd ask myself.
1-Engagements past 500+ yards? What distances should I be prepared for?
2-Factory ammo for the 260, what are your choices?
3-Overpenetration issues?

I personally can't answer these questions, but I'd definately would be seeking a credible source to get some information. I wouldn't want to be scrambling to get this info after an OIS.

 

[cdennyb]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

If this for PD urban use mostly, would you really be interested in flat shooting with knockdown power at 500+ yds?
Would't you be more interested in a multi-ammo (meaning various loads and bullet weights and styles) low velocity, high power stick?
Or... if this is a recreational item with ocassional use in the PD then by all means I agree with the 308 version.
Just asking.

 

[uvson]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Hi,

for sure, the 260 is better than 308.
BH made some perfect ammunitions.
it has less wind drift, shoots flatter, and less recoil than 308.

See some Zac's review about this cartridge:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

 

[operatorj]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Odds are this will be mostly rec use. How ever it will also be with me in the car and on callouts. We work alot with County and are in a very rural area. 500+yds is over doing it I know. If I hafta take a shot from over 200 yds Im doing somthing wrong. I was using it as a example. I know 308 is the common LEO round and is the standard I just wanted to know if I was missing anything in the 260 relem. Thanks for all the input guys.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

bro 308 has plenty of knockdown power WELL past 500, 600 yards and anyone who thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken.

but yes 260 is a LOT better round i fully agree with that.

 

[uvson]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">260 is definately a hotter round </div></div>

Hi Bigjoe,

could you explain why do you say that?

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

260 in general shoots flatter with less come up then a 308. can 308 be loaded hotter then the m118 i usually shoot? yes. now I will say i'm only speaking from what i've read on here cuz as of now i don't own a 260 have only read reports on it. I do have a little time behind some pretty nice 308's though.

if you have a diferent view by all means correct me, i'm just going off what i've been told on here by the 260 fan boys

 

[Driftwood]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

If you are using this for LE, I would stick with 308. Anytime you are going to deviate from a LE "standard", you should be able to justify the reason in civil court. The 308 offers a greater selection of factory ammo. I wouldn't even think about using handloads in a LE duty rifle. The civil liability you would open yourself up to is not worth it. There is a lot of information out about the performance of the 308. If you pick another caliber you are going to be writing your own book, with very limited resources.

For a duty rifle I just can't see how there would be enough advantages of 260 to outweigh the disadvantages. If you are using it for LE then I would stick with the LE standard. You sound like you want to be a little different than everyone else, just remember "The nail that sticks out gets hammered".

 

[operatorj]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I should have noted that I would be using only factory loads. I guess I will stick with the 308 for work and maybe built a 260 for play. This was just for my own information more than anything and to find out if anyone else is using somthing different.

 

[jackh]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">260 is definately a hotter round, but factory ammo is a little harder to come by.

308 is plenty out to 1000 and the ammo is EVERYWHERE!!! for a work gun i would do 308. </div></div>

couldnt have said it better. i dont hand load so this was a big point for me.

 

[Winny]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

As said before...if its for duty, stick with the norm, AKA the .308. If you find yourself in civil court because of its use, it will be hard to explain why you are deviating from what the standard is.

B.

 

[fastford]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

blackhills is making factory loaded 260 ammo its listed on their website.

 

[bm11]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: operator j</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have noted that I would be using only factory loads. I guess I will stick with the 308 for work and maybe built a 260 for play. This was just for my own information more than anything and to find out if anyone else is using somthing different. </div></div>If you are only shooting factory, I would stick with .308.

1.) Ammo availability. Very limited choices for .260. If your rifle doesn't care for the Black Hills or Cor-bon (or Southwest, because I know they are making some now too) then what do you do? In .308, there are TONS of factory ammo choices, including Gold Medal Match, which has shot GREAT out of every .308 I have tried it out of, including the 3 that I currently own.

2.) Ammo price- Gold medal can be had for under $20 a box for 168 grain. It is not as ballistically competent as 175 grain, and neither are as good as 260, but you will be able to practice more with it.

3.) Engagement distance. What is the stat on common police sniper engagements? I think it was something like 90% happen within 50 feet? The .260 has nothing on .308 at those ranges. Where the .260 shines is in tactical competitions- at longer ranges you can be off on a wind call and still make hits. But you can still make hits at range with .308, and you will get better at calling wind, practicing with .308.

Just my thoughts, but if I were to have ONE rifle, it would be a .308. Maybe get a switch barrel platform so you could spin on a .260 barrel for longer engagements/competitions?

 

[LHill22250]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

As crappy as this sounds you would be playing with fire if you went the 260 route for the possibility of civil court alone. The whole "why the 260 vs the 308" question would sink your defense in a civil trial no question & if it wasn't factory ammo approved for LE work you might as well throw in the towel. Any attorney would be all over that to represent the family of the dirtbag you put a round through.

When I got my concealed weapons permit about 6 years ago the instructor was retired SWAT officer & he couldn't stress enough on using factory personal defense ammo vs handloads due to the civil side of a case should you ever have to use your weapon. There are certain things in our society that never cease to amaze me.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bro 308 has plenty of knockdown power WELL past 500, 600 yards and anyone who thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken.

but yes 260 is a LOT better round i fully agree with that. </div></div>

Amen.

Go 308.
Southwest Ammunition makes a great 175SMK match round also!

 

[Savage_Jake]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I have a Savage 111 that I re-barreled to a .260. Its a fantastic round. People complain about not having a wide choice of factory ammo. I bought a few boxes of the HSM ammo that Mel sells on Sniper Central. Easily shoots sub moa. I got the 142 MK.

http://www.snipercentral.com/shop/index.php?cPath=94_97_111

 

[scottishtornado]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

308 without a doubt for L.E work. Contact your state swat team and ask them what they use for factory ammo. Might be easier to defend in a use of force trial since you can say its the same as the state uses.... just a thought.

Mac

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

For something "different", would the .300 Win. Mag. be a contender for this application?

 

[neeley205]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

The word "Magnum" makes civil courts break out in cold sweats. He will never be able to justify using that round in a modern court room.

 

[KillShot]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The word "Magnum" makes civil courts break out in cold sweats. He will never be able to justify using that round in a modern court room. </div></div>

Quoted for truth. Using a .300WM would cause a major shit storm.

I agree with what the majority of others have stated previously; stick with the .308.

 

[TP4]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Get the 260 for personal use. I am really liking mine. Less recoil, more velocity and flatter shooting.

 

[mjh30]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Have to agree, with the postings made by Driftwood, Winny, Lhill to name a few. If you are going to use this for work and the possiblity does exist that you will need to pull the trigger someday, stay with the 308. Use factory ammo in the rifle nothing else, keep your own meticulous records, rifle purchase, especially who built it, (if it came from the likes of Gap or Mike Lau who have government contracts even better), your range use, your training, etc. If that day in court comes, it really nice to have all yiour ducks in a row and there will be no questions about the firearm that was used, only whyit had to be.

 

[WRM]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Maybe get a switch barrel platform so you could spin on a .260 barrel for longer engagements/competitions? </div></div>

That's what I was going to suggest - get "both" (and a barrel vise). With similar length and contour barrels, they'll handle the same and you will be quite familiar with the system (stock, trigger, scope, etc.).

If you hadn't said "duty", I'd recommend the 260, but that really needs to be a 308 (in my opinion).

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Brushout]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Driftwood up top said it all the best. I agree that .260 is a kicking round for shooting...but you are using this rifle as a LEO. You wont be doing any tactical shooting or competitions, you will be stopping or eliminating a threat and you want a tried and true round for this role.

Also, you have VERY understanding brass. If I were to even mentioned that I wanted to build my own work rifle, they would kick me in the nuts and send me to counseling for even suggesting such a taboo thing. But that is just my experience.

For example...My work stick is a Rem 700 in .308 PSS. It even had "police" on the label on the box which was cut off and attached to my property card. Came with the Leupold scope already mounted. We are not allowed to do anything to them. As soon as we "alter" it, we just went rogue and are just a bunch of killers with badges without any defense available.

Go with the .308...plenty of power and accuracy and distance. Lots of legal issues when dealing with your own tactical rifle on the job. May also want to contact your county or city attorney as well and make sure they are on board. Since they will be the ones that may have to defend you if you ever have to use it. Just my $.02 but good luck and be safe.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Driftwood started the STD Snowball - and I'd say staying inside the snowball would be best, for sure.

As stated above - think about the questions a Harvard Mouth would ask........why, where did you get your info, who did you talk to, did you use the internet, if so which site? The sharks will love to hear "S.Hide" as Frank will cringe.......

Now you're a beast, a radical, with no morals and code of ethics trolling sniper forums on what's best to shoot people with........

I like the 300WM idea - damn, go big or go home I guess.

This is why America is a sorry place to live when you use force as a LE/Gov't employee. CBP being a primary example.............Thanks to poorly guided Lawyers who don't honor/defend America. (all IMO)

 

[vereceleritas]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Does your department require you to use expanding bullets to prevent over-penetration? If that's the case, 308 will have many more bullet options to choose from. There are even 308 factory loads designed for LE use like the Hornady TAP. I don't believe this option exists for 260 yet.

 

[operatorj]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Again thanks for all the great info. My current rifle is a Rem 700 PSS that only has a few mods (stock, bottom metal). I will just keep it for now. I do like the idea of using someone with GOV contracts for my next build though. I was thinking GAP and that was why I had thought of a caliber change sense it will be a completly new build. My department is kinda open to what officers want to carry. If you have a personal weapon (sidearm or patrol rifle) that you want to carry, as long as you qualify with it and it is found to be in good working order by the armour your good to go.

 

[Dionis]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I offer to your consideration DTA SRS , if you going to pull $$ on custom build...

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I recommend a .308 for LEO work. There is a much broader range of ammo available, and many have LE need included. The .260 like others said, is a hotter round, and is more apt to overpenetration. The last thing you want is liability opened up from scarce ammo choices. For LE work the .308 is more than enough to stop a man sized target well withing the urban shooting ranges that a SWAT sharpshooter would encounter.

The .260 is a great round, excellent ballistics. But factory loads are limited.

Black Hills 139 Scenars
Federal has 3 loads for hunting
120gr triple shock
120 Nosler
140 SGKs
Corbon has a decent line using 123 and 139 scenars and a 142gr match HPBT prolly a SMK.
Winchester and federal dont list anything. I wouldnt use this as your "end all" to your search, but it should put things ino perspective.

 

[desertHK]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

The 260 Remington is a great caliber for long and short range shooting. However, the 308 still is the "mainstream" round. You can get a box of ammo at just about any gun store. FWIW, I would stick with what other LE Department use. You defintiely don't want to test your LE career on some over zealous attorney in civil court.

 

[BullzeyeNJ]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I have the same setup. Savage with a Shilen match barrel. My God, first time out with the 260 and the HSM match ammo I was blown away. Shooting 0.25 MOA groups from a benchrest w/ the orange box HSM stuff from Sniper Central. I am a believer!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage_Jake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Savage 111 that I re-barreled to a .260. Its a fantastic round. People complain about not having a wide choice of factory ammo. I bought a few boxes of the HSM ammo that Mel sells on Sniper Central. Easily shoots sub moa. I got the 142 MK.

http://www.snipercentral.com/shop/index.php?cPath=94_97_111

</div></div>

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/?p=6

 

[VKC]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I would pick 308Win for LE and if using factory ammo. For long-range competition shooting and if reloading, then 260Rem.

With relative short distances of LE shooting, 308win has more stopping power (in general) and drop vs. 260Rem isn't a significant factor.

 

[magman687]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The word "Magnum" makes civil courts break out in cold sweats. He will never be able to justify using that round in a modern court room. </div></div>

Quoted for truth. Using a .300WM would cause a major shit storm.

I agree with what the majority of others have stated previously; stick with the .308. </div></div>

its very sad to think that using a more powerful round would cause a problem when as stated before the dirtbag killed 2 hostages and about to do the 3rd and u kill him then u r the one they want to hang for it thats just plain sad id say using a 20MM is fine as long as it gets the job done. but court dont see it that way.

 

[pilotguy299]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

there's some info at this site about different rounds usability for sniping:

http://www.snipercentral.com/caliber.htm

it has some comments on ammo availability and addresses over penetration issues/concerns with the various rounds.

Please remember that if deadly force is authorized, the instrument used is irrelevant.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magman687</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The word "Magnum" makes civil courts break out in cold sweats. He will never be able to justify using that round in a modern court room. </div></div>

Quoted for truth. Using a .300WM would cause a major shit storm.

I agree with what the majority of others have stated previously; stick with the .308. </div></div>

its very sad to think that using a more powerful round would cause a problem when as stated before the dirtbag killed 2 hostages and about to do the 3rd and u kill him then u r the one they want to hang for it thats just plain sad id say using a 20MM is fine as long as it gets the job done. but court dont see it that way.

</div></div>

These are certainly shitty times we live in.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pilotguy299</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there's some info at this site about different rounds usability for sniping:

http://www.snipercentral.com/caliber.htm

it has some comments on ammo availability and addresses over penetration issues/concerns with the various rounds.

Please remember that if deadly force is authorized, the instrument used is irrelevant.
</div></div>

That is the case in a criminal trial when one's SIX is one the line with the grand jury. A civil case is different. 51% of doubt in a civil trial could cost you millions when you are in the hands of some of the dumbest people...jurors.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would pick 308Win for LE and if using factory ammo. For long-range competition shooting and if reloading, then 260Rem.

With relative short distances of LE shooting, 308win has more stopping power (in general) and drop vs. 260Rem isn't a significant factor. </div></div>

+100 I couldn't have said it better myself.

I shoot a .260 and I have to handload for it. I would rather use factory ammo for the LE role. If there was such a thing as .260 federal gold match, I would ditch the .308 in a heart beat and recommend our team switch to a .260. But that's not the case.

 

[pilotguy299]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pilotguy299</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there's some info at this site about different rounds usability for sniping:

http://www.snipercentral.com/caliber.htm

it has some comments on ammo availability and addresses over penetration issues/concerns with the various rounds.

Please remember that if deadly force is authorized, the instrument used is irrelevant.
</div></div>

That is the case in a criminal trial when one's SIX is one the line with the grand jury. A civil case is different. 51% of doubt in a civil trial could cost you millions when you are in the hands of some of the dumbest people...jurors. </div></div>

maybe my area is different from yours, but unless there is some civil rights violation alleged, act of malice, or gross negligence on the part of the officer, they are immune from civil suit.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Lucky you. Here there is no such thing as immunity. In fact they are skeptical of things done in "good faith." Here anybody can sue you for anything. Hell I've been sued for just standing there.

 

[KillShot]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pilotguy299</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pilotguy299</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there's some info at this site about different rounds usability for sniping:

http://www.snipercentral.com/caliber.htm

it has some comments on ammo availability and addresses over penetration issues/concerns with the various rounds.

Please remember that if deadly force is authorized, the instrument used is irrelevant.
</div></div>

That is the case in a criminal trial when one's SIX is one the line with the grand jury. A civil case is different. 51% of doubt in a civil trial could cost you millions when you are in the hands of some of the dumbest people...jurors. </div></div>

maybe my area is different from yours, but unless there is some civil rights violation alleged, act of malice, or gross negligence on the part of the officer, they are immune from civil suit. </div></div>

You're delusional if you think you're <span style="font-style: italic">immune</span> from a civil suit, or any lawsuit for that matter. All that's needed is for the right attorney to take the case and you're S.O.L..

Don't let yourself be fooled. <span style="font-style: italic">No one</span> is immune from a lawsuit.

 

[pilotguy299]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

not fooled, there's a law that covers it.

as long as nothing is done maliciously, or a violation of someones civil rights, and it's done under the scope of employment, there's not a prob.

if it's possible to get civilly sued because you used a 260 instead of a 308 in your state and it was otherwise a good shoot, then something is extremely wrong with your justice system.

 

[Unknown]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

After teaching both firearms use, and use of force report writing, I agree with using the 308 for your duty rifle.

I agree that the 260 is likely the better long range cartridge for many reasons, but with the possibility of civil suits looming so large, the benefit of the 260 is overridden by the 308 being basically the "industry standard" cartridge. Use of the 308 will be far easier to defend. And, the 308 will perform well enough to get the job done.

If there were something that the 308 couldn't do, then you might have a chance at convincing me that you need a 260. But reasonably, the 308 will do all you need it to out to 1K yards. So I wouldn't want to deal with the potential civil suit minefield that the 260 leaves you in.

Hopefully, LE will catch up with the knowledge of people who really know firearms. In the beginning of my career, I remember the arguments over whether the 1911 was suitable for law enforcement. Now, it is accepted as the norm. Hopefully, the same will happen with the 260. I just don't see that happening for any cartridge with the word "magnum" in it during my lifetime though.

 

[WyomingShooter]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

As a former prosecutor for 23 years, I'd very much like to see a case where the defendant LEO was held liable for using the "wrong" caliber rifle. Judgments in "bad shoots", whether criminal or civil, are generally predicated on shooting someone who didn't need to be shot. With best regards from the Big Empty, ELN.

 

[DT1]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

After reading all the posts in this thread about civil suits regarding the choice of caliber (260 vs 308) in this thread, I went back and looked at the original post.

A comparison of stopping power of a 260 and 308 at 500 yards was requested. I'm not a law enforcement officer nor an LE legal afficianado but don't the vast majority of LE shootings take place well inside of 100yds? Talk about the possibility of a civil suit, taking a whack at a bad guy at 500yds in a LE setting would seem to be legal suicide regardless of caliber.

Anyone got any stories of 500yd LE sniper shots to share?

 

[Dirty D]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

I have had this discussion with my brother who is one of the snipers for his SWAT team and the .338 Federal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Federal came up in the discussion. You can push a very heavy round (250 to 300 grains) in the 2500 fps range which will somewhat limit overpenetration. The 2500 (approx) MV will limit long range use but how often do PD snipers have to engage at really long distances. Lastly is shooting thru glass (building windows and windshields), I would think that a 300 grain SMK would have much less deflection off of glass than a 308 or 260 round. I am not disregarding the 308 or 260, they are both fine rounds but for engagement distances, penetration concerns and a higher than average probability of having to shoot thru glass the .338 Federal seems to be the right wrench for the job.

Having said all of this I don't own a .338 Federal (yet) but I slept at a Holiday Inn last night and read up on the round at the "Hide"

I would love to hear some observations from someone who has one or has had training shooting thru glass.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

No but I believe one of the longest known shots was 274 yards if my
memory serves me.

 

[VKC]

Re: 308 or 260 for tacticalrifle

Frangible ammo would be another consideration to prevent over-penetration.