308 reloading

[millertime2]

Man I’m struggling to find a good load for my 308 and getting frustrated or I just suck as a shooter. (More the latter). My list of components if anyone has some advice.
178 ELDM
175 Nosler custom Comps
175 Berger LRBT
185 Berger Hybrids
Nosler Brass
Federal brass
Lapua brass
Winchester large rifle
Cci 200
Cci BR2
Varget
8208 haven’t tried yet
Accurate 4064
RL15
Most of my groupings are .8-1.2
I’d just like to find something that can deliver .5-.75 pretty consistently in my rifle.
Remington trued action trued, 26” Bartlein.

Thanks

 

[IowaGeologist]

First impressions, and I'm putting a lot of faith in the Bartlein:
1) Your reloading process might be off. Components you list all sound solid.
2) Your shooting could use some work (right there with you if that's what it is).
3) Something is wrong with the Bartlein. Hey, it happens, even with great barrels.
4) A constant 0.8" group isn't anything to be ashamed of. When people post 0.25-0.5" groups on here and other places, you're not seeing the other 3 groups with "fliers". Can some do 0.5" all day? Sure. Not exactly the norm. 0.8" consistently is a good start.

First thing I would do - try factory ammo. FGGM 168 or 175s and see how they shoot, a bartlein should be able to print those pretty well. Next, let a capable shooter you know fire the factory loads and some of your more promising hand loads. Will rule out you just needing more work. Then, maybe pick up some of the 168 or 175 SMKs to try with Varget or IMR4064. They aren't the most cutting edge bullets, but they're forgiving as hell and will shoot in almost anything.

Good luck.

 

[millertime2]

I did get a couple good groups with the Accurate 4064 (I bought the accurate stuff when I couldn’t find anything else several years ago) with 175 Nosler custom comps so I ordered some more of those to try.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

What is the process you're using to find a load? Do you have any kind of methodology, or are you just throwing something together and hoping it works?


Here's what I'd do.
1.) Find your lands touch depth.
2.) Load up any one of the 175gr class bullets starting at 42gr of Varget .020 off the lands in an OCW fashion.
2a.) i.e. 5rds at 42gr, 5rds at 42.3gr, 5rds at 42.6gr etc. until about ~44-45gr.
3.) Evaluate the target for vertical POI shift. You're looking for 2-3 charge weights that have roughly the same vertical as far as POI.
4.) Once you find a 'node' (i.e. two charges weights that impact in roughly the same area) record this info.
5.) Now load up rounds from .005" off the lands using the above recorded charge weight, and work back in .010" increments. I'd load until you've moved ~.070".

Chances are, you're going to find something that will one hole them once you start playing with seating depth.

The combo of Varget any just about any 175gr bullet will work.

Also, there's only one brand of brass to shoot in a .308...it's called Lapua Palma.

 

[culater]

Man I’m struggling to find a good load for my 308 and getting frustrated or I just suck as a shooter. (More the latter). My list of components if anyone has some advice.
178 ELDM
175 Nosler custom Comps
175 Berger LRBT
185 Berger Hybrids
Nosler Brass
Federal brass
Lapua brass
Winchester large rifle
Cci 200
Cci BR2
Varget
8208 haven’t tried yet
Accurate 4064
RL15
Most of my groupings are .8-1.2
I’d just like to find something that can deliver .5-.75 pretty consistently in my rifle.
Remington trued action trued, 26” Bartlein.

Thanks

What the twist rate on the rifle?

 

[Ryridesmotox]

If you have a picture that might help people figure out what you're doing wrong. As much as I like the good barrel companies, even they let a bad one through every now and again. May also want to hit them up and explain the situation.

 

[millertime2]

1:10 twist

 

[millertime2]

I’m out of town till the weekend I’ll work up some loads with the 175 CC and shoot them this weekend and post the results.

 

[millertime2]

3/4” dot at 100

 

[Kyle92]

Do you have a chronograph? Also I would 2nd using varget with that weight class of bullets.

 

[millertime2]

Yes all measured with a Magneto speed that’s the average and SD

 

[Kyle92]

Yes all measured with a Magneto speed that’s the average and SD

I would further explore that group with the 2.6 sd, that's pretty low. Run a 10 round string and see what the spread is. If the spread stays nice and low, maybe it might be a marksmanship issue. If you have it open up, tweak the seating depth in small .003 increments and see how it responds. Just my .02 take with grain of salt.

 

[tuckybill]

Have a friend load a dud in your magazine and see if your flinching some. A flinch creeps up on you before you know it and its the devil to get rid of.

 

[millertime2]

At .020 off of the lands those TMK’s are long they will have to be shoved in a bunch to fit in a mag with a binder plate. Are those speeds nominal with a 175? I wondered if I should try going up over 45

 

[pell1203]

Note the POI of the center of the groups from 43.6 - 44.0 grains are pretty much the same. Group size is also fairly consistent across this range.

I'd bet your node with the 175 CC projos is right at 43.8 grains. I'd load 43.8 grains and try jumping them from 0.010" off the lands to ~0.070" off the lands in 0.010" increments (your choices may be restricted here if you are loading to magazine length).

If it were me, I would not put a lot of faith on the MV spread and SD numbers based on three shot strings as they are statistically insignificant!

 

[Ryridesmotox]

I concur with the 43.8 in the custom competitions. I shoot my OCWs without a chronograph. After finding which 3 or 4 charges are the most consistent POI I'll go for the upper half, load more and verify on the next range trip, then chrono them.

As far as the sierras TMK. I dunno, I think you may want to try to go faster maybe? As long as there were no pressure signs. Looks like you are just starting a node with that 44.2 and 44.4 charge

 

[deltawiskey]

I know I'm not the only one who has expressed frustration with the Custom Comps and the TMK's grouping consistently.
Have you tried the old standard SMK's??
DW

 

[pmclaine]

3/4” dot at 100

Good groups even despite the fact I think 175 CCs are manufactured with built in fliers.

I buy them and use them despite their quirks.

I've had better luck with 168 CCs.

 

[pmclaine]

@millertime2

If it's any help here has been my last few months search for the "El Dorado" load.....

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...smk-i4064-loaders.6936994/page-3#post-7874471

Don't get too hung up on my charge weights thinking it's for you.

I'm at the lower end of the charge scale and what works for me may not be for you.

Use my experience only as an example of "there is a lot of fucking around going on" and another shooters group examples.

You may not feel so bad about your situation.

Those guys that load twenty bullets, than 10 more and make 1 hole groups.......I'm not them, fucking seasons change while I screw around.

If I really want to be confident in my ammo and get the best groups I use FGMM 175 from the store.

 

[Bertoli888]

"Most of my groupings are .8-1.2
I’d just like to find something that can deliver .5-.75 pretty consistently in my rifle. "

My suggestions is to have someone who is a "marksman" shoot factory loads as a baseline and your reloads for comparisons. I am no expert and in the beginning had to accept the fact that I was a 3/4 inch shooter and working toward 1/2 inch. I am not implying anything with your shooting, please.

 

[Doom]

Try dropping your charge back to ~42 gr of varget and see what happens. Also, don’t shoot your groups with the MS. It adds an additional variable that MAY affect group size.

 

[pmclaine]

Try dropping your charge back to ~42 gr of varget and see what happens. Also, don’t shoot your groups with the MS. It adds an additional variable that MAY affect group size.

MS is another discussion all together but mine seems to consistently shoot same size groups 1/2 inch higher than without.

I can factor it out with a scope adjustment pretty much.

 

[Scopes]

Both my 308 rifles will shoot 42.0 grains of Varget very well. You won't get insane velocity, but the accuracy is there. I would try 5 shots of the following. I also would try no magneto speed to eliminate a variable. Just my .02.....Happy shooting

175 Berger LRBT .020 jump
Lapua Brass
42.0 Varget
CCI 200 primer

 

[Doom]

MS is another discussion all together but mine seems to consistently shoot same size groups 1/2 inch higher than without.

I can factor it out with a scope adjustment pretty much.

Yes, a whole different discussion!

 

[brianf]

not sure if i missed it but has he tried FGMM, i saw it as a recommendation above
a rifle or shooter cant get fgmm into 3/4" @ 100 and maybe 3 shots touching out of the 5

there might be bigger issues that reloads wont help

if i missed it...just disregard what i said like my wife usually does

 

[millertime2]

Appreciate all the advice and I have not tried FGMM. I went to buy some and my local store did not have any so I guess I will be ordering. I’m glad I’m not alone in the fact I can’t shoot .5” groups all day long I’m just searching right now for something I can produce .75” groups or less with. I know this will take a lot of practice on my part as well. It’s just weird I can shoot 1/2 groups with my 6x47 pretty regularly and .75 or less with my 7 mag but it seems I really struggle with a 308. I think there is another node above 44 grains but I really don’t want to have to worry about pressure or being hard on brass so I’m content if I can end up with something between 2625-2700 fps

 

[Bertoli888]

"It’s just weird I can shoot 1/2 groups with my 6x47 " in my quest to be a better shooter, I have found that shooting the .308 WIN forces you to have your fundamentals in place. The recoil (308 WIN) will not let you "cheat" with bad fundamentals versus a milder recoiling rifle. I have learned to be a better shooter shooting .308 WIN.

 

[millertime2]

175 ELDM -.015 off
Varget
BR2
Federal brass
5 shots

 

[tlsmith22]

I know its not listed in your component list but myself and a lot of my buddies who shoot 308s have had great success out of PowerPro 200 with a 185 Berger VLD. It meters perfect and velocity is incredible, over 2750 out of my 24”barrel. I have had great success with federal brass and BR2 primers as well.

 

[millertime2]

I’ll have to pick some up and try thanks how is the temp stability? I’m liking the 180 ELDM’s their posted BC is high and they are cheap. I’m hoping I can tighten them up messing with seating depth and practice.

 

[Rhed]

Is this with neck turned brass? 1:10 twist in a 26 bbl? Maybe try 180 pills with Var. Btw, your probably doing it already, back the shoulders down .002, neck tension, consistent seating ( get the bullet closer to the lands too), check runout. Also, what method of powder charge? Just these little things to do to eliminate variables. If reloading workflow is consistent, then check scope. Optics (is it truly zeroed), scope rings (are they secured and tighten). If all that is good, and your still not satisfied, check operator.

 

[millertime2]

Not neck turning brass
1:10 twist the barrel is actually 25”
Full sizing with Forster dies charging with A&D FX120 auto throw and trickler
I’m going to load 43.6 at different seating depths and see what happens.
Yes the operator needs some work as well!

 

[Lunchbox27]

When I had these very issues, I loaded 3 dummy rounds. I used tumbling media as the powder, hot glue in the primer pockets and loaded the same bullet.

I would take 7 live factory match ammo rounds and mix in the 3 dummies and loaded up a 10 round mag with my eyes closed. Not knowing where they were showed me a lot.

Not saying you are flinching, but I was when I experienced this. Took some time for me to fix, mainly humbling myself and focusing on that.

I would shoot some FGMM, say 20 rounds for groups and establish a baseline. Your components and practices with reloading seem solid.

 

[StrayDog]

I also do .308, and lots of good input above. For me, long barrels open groups at 100y. I shoot my 22" better than my 26" because I get pushed around unless my game is ON. Shooting a braked .308 under relaxed conditions for multiple groups at 100 can exhaust you quick. I'd be happy with .75 moa 100y groups for a 1000y steel match.
I echo the urge to shoot 175smk FGMM and see those results. Very good ideas above to have a buddy load a dud in a full mag too, and to have the best shooter you know shoot your rifle with 175FGMM.
I only shoot factory FGMM 175/185 now because no time to reload, but when I did, Lapua/BR2/43.5 Varget/175smk was @ 2650 out of my 22" Rock @ .5 moa at 100y.

 

[millertime2]

I’ve got some work to do on my reloading process I guess. I had some 168 ELD match factory ammo so I shot a group of 5 with it last just to see if it was me. ??‍??‍ Only thing I can guess I need to seat the bullets deeper. I’m loading some more at 43.6 with 3 different brands of primers and seating at COAL 2.80”

 

[Rhed]

I’ve got some work to do on my reloading process I guess. I had some 168 ELD match factory ammo so I shot a group of 5 with it last just to see if it was me. ??‍??‍ Only thing I can guess I need to seat the bullets deeper. I’m loading some more at 43.6 with 3 different brands of primers and seating at COAL 2.80”

Nice groups. Wait, are you shooting a AR? Lol, just kidding bro.. anyways on COAL, measure base to ogive instead for consistency.. And rest more between group shots. Could also be a fatigue issue. Again nice groups.

 

[RegionRat]

Time to start shooting at longer distances to help leverage the group size. Say 200 o3 300 to start with.

Your statistical sample size needs to increase as well. If it looks bad stop at that point, but if it looks good keep shooting till we see 10 to 15 rounds. MV isn’t judged on 3 or 5 round samples. It takes on the order of 15 when the samples are well behaved, and more when they are not. We don’t care when they are not, but we also know little unless we see the hopeful ones in sample sizes of on the order of 15. Competition shot strings are often 20 rounds plus sighters, so don’t fall for the internet noise that says you know anything in 5 rounds.

If the factory load is used as a baseline, then you have a goal for where the reloads should be pointing. Do a 10 or 15 round sample of the FGMM and if possible run that at 200 or 300 yards.

You have to remember how lucky it is that 308 has a known good factory load to use for debugging purposes. You can’t say that in all instances. Here, if this rig won’t shoot a good group at 200 yards with FGMM, then you know it is the driver or the gun and not the reloads.

 

[flyright]

MT - looks like you've tried the 175 and 180 eldm's but the 178's look the best?. .017 and roll with it...

 

[millertime2]

Just to update everyone. I haven't given up on this, I finally bought some 175 FGMM and shot the best group so far I can consistently group under .5" if I do my part. I actually went 9/10 on a 16" steel plate at 1020 yards with this ammo. What frustrates me is I can't get a hand load to repeat this performance that pisses me off but at the same time tells you how good the Factory GMM is. I'm going to keep trying different combos and surely I can stumble across something. I now know the rifle will shoot, just going to take me finding the right combo for handloads.

 

[pmclaine]

Just to update everyone. I haven't given up on this, I finally bought some 175 FGMM and shot the best group so far I can consistently group under .5" if I do my part. I actually went 9/10 on a 16" steel plate at 1020 yards with this ammo. What frustrates me is I can't get a hand load to repeat this performance that pisses me off but at the same time tells you how good the Factory GMM is. I'm going to keep trying different combos and surely I can stumble across something. I now know the rifle will shoot, just going to take me finding the right combo for handloads.

Welcome to my world.

Anytime I can get FGMM at approx $190 or less shipped per case, and I have the money I buy it.

This despite also reloading.

Reloads are for my range time.

FGMM is for classes/special events.

 

[millertime2]

Glad I'm not alone! Yes I usually wait for Brownells to run 10% off plus be on sale that gets it pretty darn affordable.

 

[pmclaine]

Glad I'm not alone! Yes I usually wait for Brownells to run 10% off plus be on sale that gets it pretty darn affordable.

There is 308GM2 in the accessories section here now for I think $185?

PSA or Target Sports sometimes hit $180 shipped. Spring and Fall usually.

Ive never seen Brownells that low.

 

[pmclaine]

Glad I'm not alone! Yes I usually wait for Brownells to run 10% off plus be on sale that gets it pretty darn affordable.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...al-gm308m2-200-rd-cases.6958666/#post-8009255

 

[millertime2]

great thanks

 

[PracticalTactical]

I'm curious if during your accuracy testing if you are feeding the rounds directly from the magazine or chambering them one by one by hand.

What can happen is that you can verify the case to bullet runout on the loading bench and its fine, but feeding out of the mag drives the tip of the bullet into a feed ramp in front of the mag and the forces can reposition the bullet and mess with case to bullet runout.

So, just to rule that possibility out, you might try hand feeding each round and see if that makes a difference for you.

I've had problems that I traced to this but particularly on bullets that are not seated far enough into the neck because to touch the lands the bullet was just too short for the chamber. So then I had to jump to offset the difference.