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.308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

J

Judge

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 14, 2008
51
1
#1
Guys,

I've noticed at the range that standard non modified .308 Remington 5R rifles will typically offer much of the performance of a .308 custom rifle when using factory loads. Now I'm debating if spending extra for custom is really necessary from a performance point of view? Does anyone feel the same way?


Thanks,
Judge
 
#3
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

a rolls royce and a honda civic will both get you from A to B. The difference is in the quality of the drive.

A custom built to your spec will fit like a glove and shoot with absolute confidence. Whereas a mass-produced factory will take much more fiddle around and luck to shoot well. Not mentioning that match barrel will last alot longer than factory barrels.
 
#4
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I suppose it depends on what you are after. Are you competing or do you just want to shoot small goups, and how much money do you want to spend?
I am Cheap, and I don't know a good smith that works cheap...LOL
So I went with the 5R, and could not be happier. Was I lucky? I don't know, but then I don't hear from a lot of 5R owners that are unhappy. 200 and 300 Yds, off a bipod on a bench with a bag in the rear. SScott
Remington5Rtgt.jpg

Remington700308300YD.jpg
 
#5
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Me personally, I started with a 5R, sent it off to GAP, had a little bit of work done (Cut the barrel, threaded for a suppressor, bolt knob, and cerakoted). With that done, I purchased my suppressor and still spent $2600.00 total, about $600 less than the Rock I really wanted. Is that alot of money, hell ya, but I have a suppressed rifle now. Now when I get tired of the barrel or burn out the throat, I will send it back to GAP for a new barrel, and have it trued and blueprinted. Which obviously won't be for awhile, but when all added up will be pretty close in price to the Rock. Am I losing money, no, am I playing with a suppressor a lot earlier than I would have been if I bought the Rock, oh yea. Its all about your logistics. I will say this, I have not had an oppurtunity to go out a 1000K yet, but have been shooting 600yd quite a bit, and for a factory rifle I think it shoots pretty damned good. By that, it out shoots me.
 
#6
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I've noticed at the range that standard non modified .308 Remington 5R rifles will typically offer much of the performance of a .308 custom rifle when using factory loads. Now I'm debating if spending extra for custom is really necessary from a performance point of view? Does anyone feel the same way?</div></div>
this also comes down to a money issue. If you have the money and WANT a Highly respected Gunsmith to build the rifle for you then by all means get it. You won't be disappointed. I have both types, normal Remington 700's and rifles built by GAP, AWC, and H&S Precision. Can I tell the difference – absolutely! The actions on the precision rifles are superb. But, I am still the guy behind the rifle and I have to drive it. If you want to slowly build up to it do what Witch Doctor said. Do tweaks here and there and slowly you will move up to the highly trained gunsmith building it for you. Like most everything in life - it comes down to money.
 
#7
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

A custom 308 does cost 3 times as much but will shoot 3 times better at distance. I'm not saying sunnyside's groups are bad. In fact there pretty good for a production rig. But I will tell you that its not uncommon to shoot one little bug hole at 100, a small ragged clover at 200, just about an inch center to center at 300, and about 3.5 inches at 600. If your not heavy into reloading then you will not see the potential difference between the two rifles. The ammo variable is more of the equation than the rifle.
 
#8
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the differences show themselves at longer range, past 500 yards. </div></div>
Really not sure where you get that... If the rifle shoots Sub-MOA, it shoots Sub-MOA... at any distance. Groups spreading out past MOA is a result of environmental conditions or the shooter... NOT the rifle.
 
#9
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the differences show themselves at longer range, past 500 yards. </div></div>
Really not sure where you get that... If the rifle shoots Sub-MOA, it shoots Sub-MOA... at any distance. Groups spreading out past MOA is a result of environmental conditions or the shooter... NOT the rifle. </div></div>

THANK YOU!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized this makes no sense. Once the pill leaves the barrel the gun is out of the picture. Whatever it was able to do to the pill while it's in the barrel is all it can do. One it's out of the barrel it don't matter if the gun cost $300 or $3000 it's all enviromental conditions and ballistics.

If I'm wrong and someone would like to correct me please do so, but also provide some proof and explain it to me so that I will actually learn something from it.
 
#10
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I havn't had a 5R but started with a Win M70 HBV, which I shot the barrel out then had rebarreled with a Krieger by KMW. If all you are looking for is 1/2 MOA, I think the factory 5R will get you there with hand loads.

Where I've seen a difference with my customs is in cold bore repeatability/deviation from the rest of the group, ease of cleaning a much higher quality barrel, and smaller group size with handloads as well as factory ammo. You can also factor in a better stock (I've since switched out my HS P's for McMillans) which feels better to me and how I shoot. Overall, the rifle fits better and in my case, shoots more consistently than my factory HBV. This all adds confidence in my equipment, which is very beneficial.

Geb
 
#11
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

If your looking to shoot factory ammo, the 5R would be the way to go in my opinion. I have one and couldn't be happier for the money spent. It also cleans up a little easier than my sps-v.
 
#12
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Rifles are based on there users period. Can you or cant you shoot? Everyone wants a custom glove fitted rifle but not everyone needs one especially if he/she cant shoot. What a custom does is give you piece of mind...what do I mean by that you say? Confidence in your weapon. Now if we are talking about field use of a rifle and how well it will hold up in certain conditions thats a whole nother post and the custom will win. JMHO.
 
#13
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

The key to good shooting is of course an accurate rifle/ammo combo, and a good shooter at the trigger. Ever good shooter needs a shooting system that will "allow" him to shoot his best and hopefully be as forgiving as possible and to mask as many imperfections in the shooter as possible...we all have them. If a 100 factory setup works well for the shooter do it! If you need a different barrel length or stock change it out. Starting out with a Rem 700 action and a R5 or even PSS barrel is a pretty good starting point I believe. YOu can then update as you need, stock, barrel, blueprinting etc etc. Nothing wrong with starting out with a factory rig and seeing if it meets your needs. I recommend it especialy with a Rem 700 R5 or PSS...those are the base platforms many customs are made from anyway. Even if you compete and you shoot tactical matches mainly at steel so it a pass/fail scenario versus shooting at an X-ring......spending $2000 for 1/4-1/2 moa improvement might not be worth it. If you have a factory action and barrel that shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA as is........set it up how you like for ease of shooting but a new barrel and trued action might just be a waste of money. Plenty of guys have dropped $3 grand on a custom that won't shoot 1/2 MOA on a steady basis......especially with fctory ammo as mentioned prior.

Derek
 
#14
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek Myers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plenty of guys have dropped $3 grand on a custom that won't shoot 1/2 MOA on a steady basis......especially with fctory ammo as mentioned prior.

Derek </div></div>

Again the end user is what determines how a rifle will shoot. Ive seen great shooters take a $300 rifle and make a custom look ridiculous. But back to your question on the 5r. Excellent platform to start with and you wont be disappointed. I wouldnt rule out the Savage line of rifles either.

If you were planning on a custom and have no prior training aside from hunting I would defenitely opt for the 5R and spend the rest on glass and proper training.
 
#15
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the differences show themselves at longer range, past 500 yards. </div></div>
Really not sure where you get that... If the rifle shoots Sub-MOA, it shoots Sub-MOA... at any distance. Groups spreading out past MOA is a result of environmental conditions or the shooter... NOT the rifle. </div></div>

THANK YOU!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized this makes no sense. Once the pill leaves the barrel the gun is out of the picture. Whatever it was able to do to the pill while it's in the barrel is all it can do. One it's out of the barrel it don't matter if the gun cost $300 or $3000 it's all enviromental conditions and ballistics.

If I'm wrong and someone would like to correct me please do so, but also provide some proof and explain it to me so that I will actually learn something from it. </div></div>

So.....what your saying is that my $1000 factory Rem 700PSS which can shoot groups around .400" at 100 yards....will also be capable of shooting 4 inch groups at 1000 yards....? So why don't the professional benchrest/F-class shooters simply shoot with these basic rifles instead of the $3000 plus custom rifles? After all, I think the 1000 yard world record with a .30 caliber rifle is around 4 inches or less.....I bet that guy would be pissed to know he could've done it with an off-the-shelf rifle!! LOL!
cool.gif
 
#16
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the differences show themselves at longer range, past 500 yards. </div></div>
Really not sure where you get that... If the rifle shoots Sub-MOA, it shoots Sub-MOA... at any distance. Groups spreading out past MOA is a result of environmental conditions or the shooter... NOT the rifle. </div></div>

THANK YOU!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized this makes no sense. Once the pill leaves the barrel the gun is out of the picture. Whatever it was able to do to the pill while it's in the barrel is all it can do. One it's out of the barrel it don't matter if the gun cost $300 or $3000 it's all enviromental conditions and ballistics.

If I'm wrong and someone would like to correct me please do so, but also provide some proof and explain it to me so that I will actually learn something from it. </div></div>

So.....what your saying is that my $1000 factory Rem 700PSS which can shoot groups around .400" at 100 yards....will also be capable of shooting 4 inch groups at 1000 yards....? So why don't the professional benchrest/F-class shooters simply shoot with these basic rifles instead of the $3000 plus custom rifles? After all, I think the 1000 yard world record with a .30 caliber rifle is around 4 inches or less.....I bet that guy would be pissed to know he could've done it with an off-the-shelf rifle!! LOL!
cool.gif
</div></div>

Answer to question 1- I dont know can you..how good of a shooter are you.
Answer to question 2- Some of the $3000 is for show and hey look at me I spent $3000 grand on rifle knowing the new Savage Palma out of the box could have got him the same results. And yes that guy maybe pissed knowing about the Savage.

I guess if I was a benchrest shooter I would be a benchrestcentral but instead Im a tactical shooter who in turn actually works on marksmenship skills as apposed to seating at a bench with rifle strapped down to some sort ridiculous contraption knowing all I have to do is pull the trigger. Not saying it doesnt take a little more to get to a grand but a true marksmen doesnt rely on this type of setup.

To the OP who hasnt even answered his own post (prolley cause we scared the piss out of him). Do what you want in regards to your rifle purchase. To really help you we need to know some answers to the questions asked above pertaining to what you will be doing with the rifle. If its benchrest this isnt the place for ya although we do have some fine shooters on here that use to do benchrest and still do.
 
#17
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

i think the 5r is a great rifle, and will shoot as good enough for most of our needs.

i know i would have been better off a few years ago as a shooter to just buy a 5r, new stock and enough components for 5k plus rounds then go take a rifles only or spend a weekend with Vern
rather than getting custom guns and the whiz bang cartidges
 
#18
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the differences show themselves at longer range, past 500 yards. </div></div>
Really not sure where you get that... If the rifle shoots Sub-MOA, it shoots Sub-MOA... at any distance. Groups spreading out past MOA is a result of environmental conditions or the shooter... NOT the rifle. </div></div>

THANK YOU!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized this makes no sense. Once the pill leaves the barrel the gun is out of the picture. Whatever it was able to do to the pill while it's in the barrel is all it can do. One it's out of the barrel it don't matter if the gun cost $300 or $3000 it's all enviromental conditions and ballistics.

If I'm wrong and someone would like to correct me please do so, but also provide some proof and explain it to me so that I will actually learn something from it. </div></div>

So.....what your saying is that my $1000 factory Rem 700PSS which can shoot groups around .400" at 100 yards....will also be capable of shooting 4 inch groups at 1000 yards....? So why don't the professional benchrest/F-class shooters simply shoot with these basic rifles instead of the $3000 plus custom rifles? After all, I think the 1000 yard world record with a .30 caliber rifle is around 4 inches or less.....I bet that guy would be pissed to know he could've done it with an off-the-shelf rifle!! LOL!
cool.gif
</div></div>

I am not trying to turn this guys thread into a pissing contest and I hate that it's vered off the topic to this degree, but honestly....are you trying to say that the $3000 custom maintains some type of control or influence over the bullet after it leaves the barrel?? If so then please explain. As for your post I don't see what point your were trying to make? You answered your own question really. A barrel can only do so much while the bullet is traveling down it, once it's out the end of tube the gun is out of the picture as i stated above. Now once again if I am wrong please correct me, but give some basis of proof and explain it to me so that I can learn from it, rather than just being a smart. I'm here to learn just like the next guy and the guy asking the original question.

As for the 5R I have one that will be here by the end of the week. I hope that it performs as well as it's expected to. I'll be handloading for it so hopefully I can find a good load with the SMK's and be able to shoot it on my first 1K range trip coming up on the 30th.
 
#19
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bdh308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Answer to question 1- I dont know can you..how good of a shooter are you.
Answer to question 2- Some of the $3000 is for show and hey look at me I spent $3000 grand on rifle knowing the new Savage Palma out of the box could have got him the same results. And yes that guy maybe pissed knowing about the Savage.

I guess if I was a benchrest shooter I would be a benchrestcentral but instead Im a tactical shooter who in turn actually works on marksmenship skills as apposed to seating at a bench with rifle strapped down to some sort ridiculous contraption knowing all I have to do is pull the trigger. Not saying it doesnt take a little more to get to a grand but a true marksmen doesnt rely on this type of setup.

To the OP who hasnt even answered his own post (prolley cause we scared the piss out of him). Do what you want in regards to your rifle purchase. To really help you we need to know some answers to the questions asked above pertaining to what you will be doing with the rifle. If its benchrest this isnt the place for ya although we do have some fine shooters on here that use to do benchrest and still do. </div></div>

My response was to point out that the people who shoot professionally for the absolutely smallest groups at 1000 yards, don't use factory rifles. So if according to you a rifle that's capable of shooting under MOA at 100 yards can do it to 1000 yards. I know it will...cuz I've done it once.....just barely...LOL! But maybe not as consistently as a custom......if so, I think we'd see more factory rifles setting world records right....?
 
#20
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Don't worry, I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest either, just trying to point some things out that seem obvious to me.....t

I read a good article on here a while back that was written by one of the custom rifle builders....(I think Tac-Ops), in which he explained all the little things that are done to his custom rifles to increase accuracy & consistency....I think it's these types of things that seperate the abilities of the customs from factory......
 
#21
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Good thread. I wondered what the deal was with build it, buy it, or custom purchase. Seemed to be a braggin-rights thing to me. However, I don't shoot 1K and found out a while back, I can't see like I use to.

Not that it applies to any member here, but some of what people put into a stick, would be better spent on ammo, and range time. An LEO was shooting his department $3,400 Sniper Rifle a few weeks ago. He looked the part,talked the talk, I couldn't tell what his intent was. My 40X and 10-T had much tighter groups.

Now I would spend some money on "read the wind potion," but I don't see it advertise on the web. Then,take my two .308's and embarrass the custom wanna-be who has the tools in his hand, but not in his head.
 
#22
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Our local gun store was selling the Rem 700 SPS for about $511.....Damn, I was so close to buying one for that price! What a nice balanced, handling little precision .308......But, how do I convince the wifey that I need to buy it when I bought a custom built GAP!!! LOL!
 
#23
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I think the 5R is a very nice rifle. Mine consistantly shoots
.5 moa and often better. Best was a 3/4" group at 465 yds, or
.16 moa. Yes, I was lucky that day. Personally, I don't think
I would be able to tell much differance with a custom. Of course there is always the "status symbol" effect to consider.
 
#24
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I did as well in matches with my old Remington 308VS as I did with my custom rile. My old VS was a consistant .6moa rifle and by that I mean if I went out and shot 10 five shot groups the average for all 10 groups would be in the .6 range.

Yes, I even had groups that were in the .2s .3s and some in the .8s it just depended on the day. But in reality it was a "Consitant" .6 gun on aveage.

My custom 308 is probably a consistant low .5 and under gun if I do my part. Yes its shot one hole groups too but then I am talking consistat day in an day out. The one thing about it though is I always know where the first shot will go. That was not always the case with my old VS. It had a tendecy to throw the fist one low left about half the time.

If your doing all tactical shooting the 5R is a fine rifle. Buy it shoot the barrel out of it and then have it redone. By then you should know a little more about long range shooting and will get more advantage out of your new barrel.

I am not going to get into a pissing contest either but I will tell you from experience and about a dozen rebarrels on rifles that a custom built rifle, consistantly, flat out shoots a factory rifle hands down at long range.

You don't need all the "Sniper Cool" stuff to have a custom rifle. For many years I competed with a rebarreled Remington 700 VS with Pac Nor super match barrels, spray painted, with a Leupold one piece adjustable base that was tig welded to be a solid unit. I had a factory floor plate and never once broke it or any other part of the rifle. The only part I replaced on it other than barrels was the trigger when it wore out. Total price of the rifle new was $565, shot it out had it rebarreled with a Pac Nor super match for another $550 so the total cost was not all that bad and it shot as good as you could ask.

I am sure it wasn't as pretty as alot of the high dollar ones but your sure would be hard pressed to outshoot it.
 
#25
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bdh308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Answer to question 1- I dont know can you..how good of a shooter are you.
Answer to question 2- Some of the $3000 is for show and hey look at me I spent $3000 grand on rifle knowing the new Savage Palma out of the box could have got him the same results. And yes that guy maybe pissed knowing about the Savage.

I guess if I was a benchrest shooter I would be a benchrestcentral but instead Im a tactical shooter who in turn actually works on marksmenship skills as apposed to seating at a bench with rifle strapped down to some sort ridiculous contraption knowing all I have to do is pull the trigger. Not saying it doesnt take a little more to get to a grand but a true marksmen doesnt rely on this type of setup.

To the OP who hasnt even answered his own post (prolley cause we scared the piss out of him). Do what you want in regards to your rifle purchase. To really help you we need to know some answers to the questions asked above pertaining to what you will be doing with the rifle. If its benchrest this isnt the place for ya although we do have some fine shooters on here that use to do benchrest and still do. </div></div>

My response was to point out that the people who shoot professionally for the absolutely smallest groups at 1000 yards, don't use factory rifles. So if according to you a rifle that's capable of shooting under MOA at 100 yards can do it to 1000 yards. I know it will...cuz I've done it once.....just barely...LOL! But maybe not as consistently as a custom......if so, I think we'd see more factory rifles setting world records right....? </div></div>

To the OP... I'd get the 5R. It's a great starting point and as you go along you'll decide what changes to make on it.

To continue this little "Rabbit trail" (since I kinda' started it)... I have the utmost respect for Benchrest shooters but honestly, there are surely "factory" rifles out there that will shoot as well as any $3000+ Benchrest rifle. I think the money gets spent in the assurance that the Benchrest rifle is a "quarter-minute" rifle... GUARANTEED. With all other things being equal, the precision with which Benchrest rifles are made takes the rifle out of the equasion. It WILL shoot that well. The rest is up to the shooter and the environmental factors. "Factory" rifles will be hit or miss. While a good factory rifle (ie: Remington 5R) will generally shoot Sub-MOA, there's a whole inch at 100yds tolerance. That's HUGE in the world of "one tiny hole". Especially at 1000yd+ distances.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone (or several someones) or even NOBODY (for those in-the-know) has shot "record-breaking" groups with a "factory" rifle and there's just no documentation.
 
#26
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I'm not saying that I'm the best shooter in the world, but I feel confident in my skills to be able to tell the difference between my Rem 700P & my GAP. I've shot the Rem 700P for several years now, and I can say that at 100 yards, I've dipped below the .400" group only a handfull of times, but I mostly shoot bewteen .500" & .900", so it's roughly a consistant 3/4 moa rifle.....

Now my GAP 700, is a different animal, since I've had it.....I consistantly shoot groups from as low as .200" to maybe .550".....I don't think I've ever had a group at 100 yards with this gun over .700".......ever! It's just sweet as hell! It's a definite confidence builder......& like was posted above.....no cold bore deviation shot at all...
 
#27
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I have been going through your same debate lately. I really enjoy my custom guns and thought I wanted to move forward on a 300WM custom, after reading the information about the 5R with the 26 in barrel, I decided to go 5R. If it doesn't live up to what has been said about it, then it will make a good platform to start a build from. It just seems to be a smarter financial decision right now and I can build it up as finances becomes available.
 
#28
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Custom action is nice to have...very low on the list of things that improve accuracy. I shoot custom actions, but I don't delude myself into thinking it is doing much for accuracy over a good factory action. If you compete in benchrest where everyone is shooting tini-tiny groups, maybe a custom action is necessary. Otherwise, it's nice to have.

Now a good custom barrel: that is a must-have.
Good gunsmith to chamber it properly: that is also a must-have
 
#29
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

We have to fair here.......we can't compare a GAP to a PSS. The deal is that GAP isn't just a "custom builder".....they are the cutting edge......if you are looking to get a custom bolt gun you might not get a GAP but you compare what you buy to one. I personally think alot of "custom" gun builders take new shooters for a ride. They just don't alter the factory gun enough to justify an addl'$2k.

Also when I talk about rifle accuractey I like to speak of it in meachanical terms......I like to lock a rifle in a vise and fire mechanicaly controlled groups. Now when people say I shoot my Accuracy International alot better than my R5......the key is "I" in the phrase. AI or GAP or whatever you want to say make rifles that in most cases I beleive not only exceed the "mechanical" accuracy of nice off the shelf rifles like R5 but they give you more room for error as a shooter. An AI is so stable maybe you just ran and you don't slow your breathing, maybe you just shot at a live target and as soon as your scope "began" to settle you saw a perfect flash site picture and you quickly slap the trigger to touch off the shot quickly during the flash picture. More room for error.......especially if you are using the R5/PSS in the factory HS Precision. A custom or high end gun is built for you or adjustable to your body and shooting style. With a factory gun you'd better hope the stock fits you and you like the trigger type.(but again those are the first upgrades most of us do.)

One....item .....I want to say myth....but its believed by many I may be wrong...so?? Anyway the belief that if I shoot a 168gr FGMM for arguements fact let say out of a R5 and then out of a GAP....again for arguements sake. We lock both weapons in a vise and fire away......lets say both shoot 1/2 MOA mechanically at 100/200 yards. But at 800 yards with everything same/same the GAP is still at 1/2 MOA and the R5 opens up to MOA or greater?? Why is barrel cut poorly or what makes the shot deteriorate in flight? Nothing......I tested this with some students about 5 years ago. We had several rifles all in 308. I had my own "custom".....to me this my custom rifle and I used to build 5-6 a year......I never really charged enough to make it worth while but it was about 1/2 what I feel to many "shops" get $3k for. Factory PSS, blue/true action, trigger job to 2lbs, put in McMillan stock, hand lap scope rings, send off for bolt knob, install custom barrel, mount and scope and site in and paint. Now whether I drop in a timney or jewel trigger versus trigger job......personal pref. But why do so many shops sell that same gun for $3k. I had nothing but micrometer and hand tools...mainly torch wrench and dremel. I was getting about $1800 per rifle. Without labor I was pulling in about $250 tops plus I got to resell the HS Precision stock. So I made about $400 per rifle. But really 10-12 hours work?? And before my rifle was even started I already had a barrel or two and a stock or being built or on order. Anyway other rifle was my student mule...LTR with SS scope...trued action and trigger job...otherwise bone stock. We had students with Tac Ops rifles, 1 Texas Brigade, 1 GAP with a low comb stock....can't remember the model but low profile hunting type stock 22 inch barrel I think. We had several Rem's in AI stocks and various custom stocks a couple FN's and a few stock Rem's. ABout a dozen rifles.

Locked in a vise all rifles shot under MOA......I can't remember all the stats but at 100 yards 3 rifles shot a group you could fill with a spent casing. The thing was we took ALL of these rifles to 1000 yards in a vise......whether it was wind or atmosphere or whatever.......maybe the 168gr FGMM but by nature all of the rifles had groups get bigger as compared to MOA. But not alot.....every single rifle was under 2 MOA when you averaged 5 shot groups. What was unique to the test was each rifles group opened up in equal comparison to how is shot at 100 yards........meaning the 1/2 moa rifles didn't shoot 11/2moa and so forth. Each rifle pretty much went up about .40 moa at 1000 yards.

Not a perfect test......we decided to use one vise so doing multiple groups on a fair amount of rifles some shot groups hours later than the first group.

I am a horrible benchrest shooter.........the benches at the ranges are like sitting at a bar.....not tall enough or short enough. I wish ranges around me would have long tables so you could lay prone on them. I shoot for my own abilty in prone whenever possible...bipod and sock for the rear. I mention this because once the testing was over and we started swaping rifles when you took a guy with base PSS and let him shoot a GAP or Tac OPs(the GAP shot great but the stock didn't work for alot of people..including me) you could see the difference......guys who got an adjustable stock, lighter, crisper trigger...they all left saying what they were going to change.........so they could shoot better......the rifles all shot better than any of us could shoot them under field conditions...heart pumping, sweat pouring, somebody shooting back etc.

I think rifles are like racecars....every driver needs one setup to their driving style inorder to allow the driver(shooter) to perform at their best under less than laboratory conditions.

Another thing about this old test.......different barrel lengths, different twists. I'm sure if everyone could have brought out their personal ammo choice some could have done better. But I got a bulk deal on 168gr FGMM so we went that way. We had 850 rounds for the day and with the number of rifles we had to test the test ate up the majority of the ammo..so when the free shooting started guys had to break into their personal stash after a few minutes.

For the record......I love GAP and what they produce....I just don't like to see new shooter through money at a rifle that besides the paint job isn't a custom rifle and until you put enough rounds through a factory rifle as a starting point guys don't know what to order or what works best for them. They often end up ordering what looks cool or what the builder talks them into to. Most of us didn't learn to drive with a Ferrari or Porsche.........drive that old beat up Honda Civic or Buick Century first.......see what you want then grab for the brass ring. (a PSS or R5 is way better than a old Civic or Century btw)

Happy shooting-Derek
 
#30
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I have the 5r, sps-t and the an ai/ae. Both the 5r and the sps-t are great guns to get started with or to stay with. My 5r will shoot 1/2 at 100 and I have shot several 2.0in groups with it at 300 yards. I have it in an ai stock so it seems to me it shoots a little better than the factory set up. My sps-t was in the ai stock but then I put it in the 5r stock once I got that gun. It also shot very small groups out to 300 with the ai stock on it. It has also opened up some since I put it in the 5r stock. I also have a brake on the sps-t and the barrel is about 18.5in and 20in's total with the brake on it. It is about the best handlig rifle that I have at present. Now with the ai/ae, it just feels great when it is shot. I have the 20in barrel with brake on it. Incredibly solid and accurate. Besides my 6br, it is the only rifle I have that will continuously and I mean continuously shoot less than 1/2in. The last 3 times that I have been to the range with it, I have fired groups that have been .134, .224 and .225 at 100 yards. I have a couple of groups that are .225 at 200 and one group that I changed ammo and the first shot was a little high and right but still managed a 3/4 in goup at 300. Maybe the 5r and the sps-t can do this also but I do not know if they can repeat it time and time again. I like all of my 308's but I love that AI and for good reason. If I did not have the ducks for the ai or gap or apa or hataca custom, I would definatly not worry about getting the 5r or the sps-t. They are guns that will most likely outshoot the owners on most occasions. The sps-t, in my opinion will need the stock changed out just because I am not crazy about the feel or looks of it. I do not think that anything has to be done with the 5r. Ready to rock just like it is. Shoot the piss out of them and then get it rebarreled with whatever you like. Maybe sell it and get an ai or gap or something else you might fancy. Right now, I am hot on the heels of a dta srs. I just have to get the coin to be able to get it.
 
#32
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

My first precision rifle was a 5R. I can still shoot it as well as I can my GAP,it's just not as easy to do. I have to hold the 5R "harder" metaphorically speaking. I can hand my GAP to just about anybody and they can shoot 3/4" groups with it. My average with it for the last 200 rounds is .47. My average with the 5R is .6. However the same untrained shooter who could pull 3/4" with my GAP would be lucky to shoot 1.5" with the 5R.

It's just harder to shoot well and doesn't forgive errors. I have seen this time and time again with snipers shooting it and snipers girlfriends shooting it. It's true.
 
#33
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

trobertson,

Do you think the difference is in the stock fit? I can't get comfortable with the standard stock on my 5R. McA5 style is much easier for me to acquire a natural POA. I would think a the more ergonomic stock would be like having somebody drive an automatic versus driving stick.
 
#34
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Buy the 5r or savage HS shoot it and have fun you can always fine tune the gun for your comfort.I just got one ( 5r) in
.223 and 2 of 5 handloads shot under 1/2 .Any of the Remmys or Savages I shot (varmint type)with some fine tuning of the rifle and hand loads will shot with customes.Look at the DVD all hogs go to heaven 1&2 see what they do with stock rifles,the guy went Darrel Hollands long range shooting school and out shot alot of custome rifles with a stock savage 308.Buy it Shoot it have fun thats what it's about.
 
#35
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,

I've noticed at the range that standard non modified .308 Remington 5R rifles will typically offer much of the performance of a .308 custom rifle when using factory loads. Now I'm debating if spending extra for custom is really necessary from a performance point of view? Does anyone feel the same way?


Thanks,
Judge </div></div>

It is simple really. A factory rifle can hold sub-MOA at distance. But there is an element of chance in that. Factory rifles are not as consistent due to looser tolerances. On the other with a custom rifle (if built properly) has been hand built to exacting tolerances and to your exact specifications. It fits you like a glove and it is uniquely yours. Performance is only part of the equation of a custom rifle. The other is getting the exact rifle that you want.
 
#36
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rolex24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trobertson,

Do you think the difference is in the stock fit? I can't get comfortable with the standard stock on my 5R. McA5 style is much easier for me to acquire a natural POA. I would think a the more ergonomic stock would be like having somebody drive an automatic versus driving stick. </div></div>

Stock fit has alot to do with it. Plus the GAP weighs much more,has a brake,and a better trigger. It's just easier to shoot well.
 
#38
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I also have a 5R and it is a great rifle. I spent a good few months going back and forth between a custom or going with a factory rifle and I am glad I went with the factory rifle and here are a few reasons why

I want to be able to shoot this rifle a few hundred rounds before I start to customize and see what exactly I need.

The rifle is $899, pick it up and shoot on the same day

I will run enough rounds through this barrel and start to go custom with the next barrel

To me it just made sense to see what the stock version could do, then only improve, instead of being told what a custom could do and try all day to get my rounds to hit as advertised.
 
#39
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I took out the old 5R today and realized again why i didn't sell it! I thought I would resurrect this old thread.

It had been duracoated, has and M4 base plate, bolt knob, and a trigger job; nothing else whatsoever. The scope is a fixed 10x Leupold Mark 4 40mm. The Ammunition is factory 168 gr. federal gold medal match.

The best group of the day was .45 MOA all horizontal spread.

2011-05-01_161015.jpg


2011-05-01_162158.jpg


2011-05-01_163222.jpg
 
#40
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

The 5r's rule for a factory upgrade.I wouldnt spend more money than that if I was hunting and punching paper.It is a fine rifle and shoots as good as a cooper.
 
#41
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I went a diff route.

Got a used 700 adl. And getting action tried with a Krieger or rock creek. Artel.

You end up spending little bit more than a 5r brand new, but I think end product is a customized rifle to your liking without breaking the bank like an expensive rifle would.
 
#42
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

i'll be getting my 5r .308 in 2 weeks, im gonna shoot it for a while first, then have it gone thru by a competent gunsmith. I will have it bedded, add a jewell trigger @ 2.5 lbs, and have the barrel re crowned. Having a swarovski 2.5 x 15 x 56 z6i ballistic turret installed so im at 4 grand already. after my future above mentioned mods, it will be around 4750 total. I know going in it will shoot better than i can by a long shot.
 
#43
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

Both are great rifles. Here's my experience.

Our gun club just finished a rifle league in which I took second place. A GAP crusader took first place. The difference in group size was .125" over the coarse of 10 targets. His group was .375", mine was .5". Not bad for a bone stock that rarely shoots over .7MOA. If I added a Jewel trigger and settled on a load, the results may be much better in my favor. If you have the money by all means buy the GAP. I would if I could. Still might some day. Until then I'm going to have fun tweaking the 5R.

Paul
 
#44
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

700 tubes shoot exceptionally well,but their biggest bane is their sloppy chambers and Linda Lovelace throating.

Hard to get excited about a handle with shit ergo's and a "bedding block",whether it HS,B&C or others. Tough to swoon BDL potmetal bottom metal too. A S/S tube is a step in the right direction,for those who actually shoot outside.

Would like to see Remington offer the LTR in stainless and wearing a VLS-esque beavertail laminate in ADL with a S/S TG. A guy would have a sound foundation,for modest loot. Add a 1-8" 223 version to the line up too.

700 243's are chambered,throated and twisted far better. That they'll smoke a 308 from start to finish,do not dettract from the appeal.
 
#45
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our local gun store was selling the Rem 700 SPS for about $511.....Damn, I was so close to buying one for that price! What a nice balanced, handling little precision .308......But, how do I convince the wifey that I need to buy it when I bought a custom built GAP!!! LOL! </div></div>

I forgot to tell the wife about the GAP and then the 5r that was calling to me.
Shhhhhhh!
I haven't even shot the 5r yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Everybody that has shot my GAP has shot it well. It does seem easy to shoot well with it. There is definitely a degree of confidence that comes with it.
 
#47
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I ended up with a used (barely) XCR Compact Tactical with a Swarovski scope on it. I have several "good shooting" hunting rifles (1.5 moa or better), but wanted something that would "easily" shoot sub-moa, and could be upgraded later. I was shocked when I took it out briefly for the first (and so far) only time and put 3 bullets inside 1" at 300 yards with one ammo and 1.5" with another (not to mention a small cloverleaf at 100 yards). Haven't shot enough to know if it (or I) will do that consistently, but I am very happy.

As money and time become available I'll probably send in the action for upgrades, get a custom stock, etc... Maybe some day I'll have the funds to custom order a GAP but I'm satisfied for now...

-Bruce
 
#48
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

I love my 5R, bought it as a pre-cursor to a custom... then just started customizing the 5R instead. Adding an AICS was a huge turning point for me as I have bad wrists from too much basketball. The next turning point was a Jewell HVR. Next will be a new barrel - but it will probably be a while. I don't shoot much past 300 normally... except a coyote at 626 with a witness! LOL!

Mine shoots very well with Black Hills Match 175gr. the 168 seems to open up to me.

You can't be hurt as a newer shooter by spending less for the rifle and spending the rest on ammo working on the #1 factor in shooting... you.
 
#49
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

As a 5R and custom rifle owner, I can say that you get what you pay for. Simply if you buy 3 custom rifles they will all shoot if you are going with a reputable builder. Rest assured they will receive custom attention and guarantee. On the other hand, you can have 3 5Rs and likely one will clearly stand out as a real shooter. And I believe one will be a lemon....maybe the other will fall in there somewhere between. My 1st 5R was a lemon and had to be sent back to remington. Which they replaced it telling me that the rifling was damaged/miscut.

If I remember remington said their guarantee was 1.5" at 100 yards. And that's for a $1000 gun...right? Hmmmmm???? .5" or better guns cost $3000...makes sense to me. Now granted the typical 5R is likely to be a .75" or better gun or you could get a lemon or a 1 hole gun. I'm not a gambler and $1000 is a lot of money to take a chance with. Thats why the big green won't get me a second time. Not bashing them, just giving my opinion and sharing my first hand experience.

I'd rather know for sure what I'm getting for my money. Whatever the price maybe. In summary, a custom is a different animal no matter how you look at it, and can't be compared to a mass produced gun.
 
#50
Re: .308 Remington 5R vs .308 Customs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigmike2121</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i'll be getting my 5r .308 in 2 weeks, im gonna shoot it for a while first, then have it gone thru by a competent gunsmith. I will have it bedded, add a jewell trigger @ 2.5 lbs, and have the barrel re crowned. Having a swarovski 2.5 x 15 x 56 z6i ballistic turret installed so im at 4 grand already. after my future above mentioned mods, it will be around 4750 total. I know going in it will shoot better than i can by a long shot. </div></div>

After reading this post, it reminded me of the downright rancid X mark <span style="text-decoration: line-through">poop</span> pro trigger they come with. once again another hit or miss feature about the rifle. For the money the want for the 5Rs they should come with a Jewell. Hmmm.. wow that would solve remington's trigger/safety issue also. Perhap's someone at remington will read this and get the ball rolling.
wink.gif
 
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