308 & varget won't group?

wilsey

wilsey

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 23, 2011
134
9
Sioux Falls, SD
#1
Gents,
I recently loaded up some 178 amax and some varget for my aac-sd. Long story short, 1.5-2 moa. Not sure what my next step is. I'm gonna try to clean the barrel and mount a different scope. I'm using LC LR brass and var get ranges from 41-43. Is it possible my gun doesn't like varget???
 
#4
Have you tried factory loads in there or other loads with different powder? If so, what did the accuracy look like with those? I just tried about 20 different loads for my 7 mag from length, powder, bullet weight, primers, brass, etc with no good consistent results. For me it turned out my barrel is fried. For you it could just be OAL.

My varget load was 43.5 gr (with the 168s) in FC brass and win primers, accurate as could be in my Savage 10BA. Stuck the same load in my M1A (yes, it was a little too hot at that point) and it was about 1.5-2 MOA. Dropped the powder charge to 41 gr and it went down to 1-1.5 MOA. Switched to IMR4895 and it shoots 1" all day in my M1A. Play around with it a bit, there are loads of variables as I am sure you are aware.
 
#6
The 178's like to be closer to the lands then a factory remington chamber will allow. I dicked with those bullets for a month trying to get them to shoot out of the aac-sd and gave up. You simply cannot get them close enough unless you want to single feed them.
 
#7
wilsey said:
Gents,
I recently loaded up some 178 amax and some varget for my aac-sd. Long story short, 1.5-2 moa. Not sure what my next step is. I'm gonna try to clean the barrel and mount a different scope. I'm using LC LR brass and var get ranges from 41-43. Is it possible my gun doesn't like varget???
Click to expand...

Anything's possible.

Go back to square one.

What has the rifle shot well?

"I am gonna pick up some FGMM 175 for somewhat of a control. I know I can get 1 moa out of those."

Have you shot FGMM 175s to "know" that it shoots those well, or are you assuming your rifle will?

When you buy the 175s, pick up a box, or two, of the 168s and see what they do.

Since you reload, try some different bullets and powders if you can find them.

Is your rifle new?

My Savage 10FP LE2b took ~700 rounds of all different types of bullets, powders and primers before it started shooting 'lights out' with those same combinations. It was unusual to take that long, but that's what happened and I have the target pictures to back up that claim.

Sometimes with a particular weapon, things don't fall into place right out of the box.

Mix things up a bit and see. Not every barrel loves every bullet/powder combo.

Chris
 
#8
Could be the powder or the bullet.My 308 will shoot in the high 20's or low 30's with IMR4064 but with varget the best I have been able to get it to shoot is in the 60's which is just over a 1/2 inch.Same thing with another 308 I use to have,tried varget and 4064 and could not get it to group,changed to RE15 and it would shoot 1 ragged hole.All 3 powders are similar and good 308 powders.
 
#9
uploadfromtaptalk1401254972677.jpg
Could this be my problem??
 
#10
wilsey said:
Gents,
I recently loaded up some 178 amax and some varget for my aac-sd. Long story short, 1.5-2 moa. Not sure what my next step is. I'm gonna try to clean the barrel and mount a different scope. I'm using LC LR brass and var get ranges from 41-43. Is it possible my gun doesn't like varget???
Click to expand...

What scope and rifle? You left out allot of info.
Do you weight each chg?
Varget won't meter through a PM worth a dang.
What's your COAL?
How much neck tension.
How much bullet run out on your loaded rounds? You want a T.I.R. of .003" or less.
LG
 
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#12
Next question I guess would be a good carbon remover and good copper solvent. As I understand one solvent won't do both?? I don't want anything to aggressive. The only thing I have now is #9
 
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#13
KG-12 or Pro Shot copper solvent. JB Bore paste wouldn't hurt for the carbon. Make sure you have a good coated rod and bore guide. Scrub heck out of it with JB with a back and forth motion paying special attention to the first 5 inches of the throat.
 
#14
wilsey said:
Gents,
I recently loaded up some 178 amax and some varget for my aac-sd. Long story short, 1.5-2 moa. Not sure what my next step is. I'm gonna try to clean the barrel and mount a different scope. I'm using LC LR brass and var get ranges from 41-43. Is it possible my gun doesn't like varget???
Click to expand...
You're not alone, neither one of my 308s like Varget, like I always say, get some 2000MR and pour 47grs in that LC brass and seat to 2.825".
 
#18
Has that gun shot better with any load previously? I guess I'm not familiar with that particular rifle? Some rifles just won't shoot well, no matter what you do. I'm curious about the action bedding. Is the barrel free floated? Do you have a good trigger, ETC. Are your bullets loaded out to almost touch the lands. Could it be shooting technique? There are so many variables....
 
#19
It has shot good with cfe223 and 178. Maybe I'll just stick with that. I'm gonna clean the barrel good. I've loaded up some subsonics and maybe getting some extra copper fouling. I'm gonna try it again this weekend after a good scrub of the bore.
 
#20
Some Barrels dont like the 178gn AMAX. I have experienced this myself and wasted a hundred rounds trying 3 different powders and a bunch of seating depths. The best I could get was 1MOA, I switched to the 185 Juggernauts and it shoots single hole groups now. I have mentioned this to other people and they have concluded the same thing. My Barrel also didn't like 175gn SMK weirdly but shot the 168 SMK great
 
#22
As mentioned, you don't say how the gun shoots with other ammunition. I always get a box or two of match grade ammunition to shoot and establish a "benchmark" for the gun's capabilities. Most guns like Federal Gold Medal Match. Pick up a box of 175s and see how the gun shoots. Also, how many rounds down the tube. Some guns need a few rounds to settle in.

Besides getting/shooting some factory ammunition, I would also re-check the torque on your scope base and rings as well as your action screws. I'd do all of this before discounting the powder.
 
#25
Mine wouldn't shoot that combo either. But varget and 168 bthps are a different story. 1/2 moa consistently. Every rifle is different, that's the fun / frustration of this precision shooting stuff
 
#27
2 moa is the best my aac-sd would do with 3 different powders and 6 different bullets. That was after a HS stock and trigger upgrade. I finally had it re barreled. 3/8 moa now. Remington turns out duds more and more often these days.
 
#28
i jump the 178 a max bullets .060. secant ogive bullets started the myth that closer is always better. i had good results jumping bergers at .060. it is just what each gun likes. but the a max is a tangent ogive design that is not as sensitive to seating depth. my go to loads are 44 varket and a 168 a max and 43 varget and a 178 a -max both loaded to 2.8. you just have to experiment and see what each gun likes. i shoot tons of hornady bullets they are half the price of the others.
 
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#29
I have used the same load in three different aac-sd rifles and all shot tight groups. All three had replacement stocks, two bc and one HS.
178 amax
Lapua brass
42.5 varget
Fed 210 match primer
2.80 oal

One liked the above load as well as :
42.0 ar comp and the same specs as above.

Like the others said, have you tried factory ammo and have you replaced the hogue stock?
Good luck!
 
#30
I have tried fgmm 168 and grouped well. I have also replaced the hogue with a manners t5a. I think my barrel is either shit or really dirty. But I'm a bit puzzled because I don't have that many round down the tube <150 so it can't be that dirty. Maybe more break in time like some suggest..
 
#32
It's difficult to know without all of the details. You say the gun shot 168 FGMM well, was this before OR after the change in stocks. Is the Manners a mini-chassis or has the action been bedded? Also, torque on the action screws can change things up as well.
 
#33
Got some better results. I think it was due to dirty barrel. Picked up some Bore tech Eliminator and cleaned it real good also reset my sizing die. Might tweak a little bit buy overall happy now
43.3 Varget 178 Amax uploadfromtaptalk1402428850034.jpg
 
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#34
Out playing in the sandbox with my Savage 308. Shooting at 12'' steel plate at 1,000 yards. I used 155 gr A-Max with IMR 4895. I did three rounds with little over 3 1/4'' group. I was happy and put my weapon away. By the way being a old fart, I was shooting from a table. A close friend has a new Savage 308 and he is working up a load with Varget and 175 grains pill.
 
#35
it seems alot of ppl are really low on grains of varget for me i tried all the 41 42 43 and 44 g with no success at all with my 178 amax kept bumping it up with no pressure signs, im up to 45g and its finally tightened up alot had half sub moa. So im gonna keep playing with, my max is 45.8g at 2.853. also useing hornady match grade brass.

my 175 smk is around 44 45 also.

Also make sure its clean mine really likes a clean barrel will only go every 25 or so shots before it starts to open up a little.
 
#36
My experience tells me to first select the bullet, then the powder. And my 308 barrel does not like the 178. It likes the 175 SMK as well as the 185 Berger Hybrid. The 155 scenar not so much, nor the 185 Berger Juggernaut. If you find the right bullet, the powder will make less of a difference in accuracy, especially at short range. For long range, different powders have different fill levels at different velocities / pressures. I have found that if I max out my fill level to where I am running a slightly compressed charge, I get lower SD's. That is where powder measures. You can also squeeze a little extra velocity out at roughly the same pressure with some powders.

But ultimately, it is bullet first. I have gotten to the point that before I even bother to do load development, I will load a bullet up at safe pressures with whatever powder, seat it close to the lands, and just see if it shoots. If it does, then I go back and mess around with charge weights and where to seat it. Otherwise I don't bother. You can waste a lot of time tweaking to get an MOA bullet to shoot .75 MOA in you barrel, but if you start at MOA, you are probably not going to get to under half just by tinkering. And that is my goal.
 
#38
wilsey said:
Next question I guess would be a good carbon remover and good copper solvent. As I understand one solvent won't do both?? I don't want anything to aggressive. The only thing I have now is #9
Click to expand...

wilsey said:
I've never loaded up any 175 smks. Maybe I'll buy a box and see if my gun likes the taste of those better
Click to expand...

I love the 175 ' s I get a nice sub MOA with 10 shots using 44 grains of Varget loaded to 2.805 with Winchester brass. Using Lapua brass I get more velocity using 43.7 grains of Varget but the same size groupings. Try some out. My gun loves them
 
#40
+1 on 44g Varget behind a 175 SMK. I think it's a pretty standard load, as well. Lots of folks in this game are having success with that recipe.
 
#41
My AAC-SD shoots large, ragged hole groups at 100 with 175 SMKs over Varget, as long as I remember to tighten down the loose nut behind the trigger.

Hornady match brass, 175SMKs, Winchester LR primers, and 44.4 grains of Varget if loaded to mag length. Now that I can load them long (2.925"), I'm dropping 45.4 grains of Varget with no pressure signs.
 
#42
wilsey said:
Gents,
I recently loaded up some 178 amax and some varget for my aac-sd. Long story short, 1.5-2 moa. Not sure what my next step is. I'm gonna try to clean the barrel and mount a different scope. I'm using LC LR brass and var get ranges from 41-43. Is it possible my gun doesn't like varget???
Click to expand...

Honestly i'm not seeing the best accuracy with 178 Amax's either. I've tested 4064, W748, and 2000MR , and thus far i'm believe my best grouping was 1.43" at 200 meters (I don't have my excel data in front of me). I have a R700 SPS Varmint 1-12" twist, and it just doesn't shoot 175's-178's as well as compared to 155's and 168's . So maybe not the Varg, maybe it's the projectile...
 
#43
I loaded 44.2 gr of Varget in LC LR brass I was loading 44.6 in winny brass but had to back down it will shoot 3/8 MOA when everything is right with the world, which isn't very often but it does happen. My COAL is 2.825 I had to play around with seating depth alot I shot all af my 178s up and went with SMK's and am happy with them.
 
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