.308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

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wadebrown

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Minuteman
    • Oct 18, 2008
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    Minnesota
    #1
    I have just acquired a 308 Win with a 18" 1-10" twist barrel with very few shots down the tube. I have been asked to set the rifle up shoot up to 1,000 yards. I shoot a variety of 6.5 mm rifles out to 1,000 yards but do not have a lot of experience with the .308 Win so please excuse my ignorance.

    It looks like it will be difficult to get the MV to get to 1,000 yards supersonic at sea level. Are there any of you more experiences long range 308 shooters have experience reaching 1,000 yards with an 18 inch barrel? I would appreciate any load information you could provide on effective loads.

    Thanks
     
    #3
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    18" 1/10 308 shooting factory Cor Bon 175gr ammo, 78ft above sea level.

    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/15qj032UJ1I"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/15qj032UJ1I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
     
    #6
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    The can doesn't really do anything here nor there, the fps was around 2605fps, and without the can it can be anywhere from 2575fps to 2595fps, I have had both numbers appear, either way I am still supersonic to 1000 yards.

    The 155gr loads will work as well.
     
    #7
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    I would assume a 175 Grainers would work better than the 155's. I have heard alot of people shoot the 155 scenars out to 1000. Can anybody tell me why this is? I know the 155's offer more velocity but it seems like they would run out of steam quicker. I know HSM ammo offers 175 grainers that are equivalent to the M118LR. HSM also offers the 178 Grain A-Max and 190 Grain BTHP in their .308 line up. I would check out the 178 A-Max's if it were I.
     
    #9
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    Assumptions makes asses out of one if one is not careful,

    the 155 are designed for the 1000 yard Palma shoot, ergo they are more then adequate to shoot that range, well yes they are even prefered,

    shooting 175 or 155 all day i would opt for the 155, at least I feel a difference in recoil, but I am bit shy in that departement.

    Btw a 155 Scenar is the same lenght as a 175 SMK.

    /Chris
     
    #11
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swedish guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assumptions makes asses out of one if one is not careful,

    the 155 are designed for the 1000 yard Palma shoot, ergo they are more then adequate to shoot that range, well yes they are even prefered,

    shooting 175 or 155 all day i would opt for the 155, at least I feel a difference in recoil, but I am bit shy in that departement.

    Btw a 155 Scenar is the same lenght as a 175 SMK.

    /Chris </div></div>

    how is the recoil on the 155 compared to the 168? and yeah I'm the same. I can tell the difference in recoil.
     
    #12
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    With 2 bullets close to the same BC, I would take the lighter bullets for punching paper/steel. The extra speed of the lighter bullet will make up the lack of BC, that is assuming if you can find the right load.
     
    #14
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are seriously Pussies Elite if you are talking about recoil differences between two different 308 bullets.

    I think I have heard it all and can die now, surely the world can't exist much longer with this line of thinking.

    </div></div>

    that is some funny shit!
     
    #15
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    The 155 gr Palma bullet was designed to shoot to 1000 yds under PALMA rules which mandate 155 gr as MAX weight. It was NOT designed to be the BEST 1000 yd bullet, just the best under those rules. Those not so restricted will usually do better agianst the wind to a thousand with a 175 gr MK.
     
    #16
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    I understand that assumptions can do that, I was merely saying that because I'm not as experienced with long range shooting, thats why I asked the question as to why 155's work just as well if not better than the 168's/175's. The reason I assumed this is because I have always heard (through magazines,websites,forums) that a heavier bullet will buck the wind and stay supersonic longer because of the extra weight. I am in no way stating facts, just opinion and questioning if this is in fact true or not.
     
    #17
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    F...ing love that vid.....BOON-TEEEEER...1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3 one thousand, 4 one thousand,.....BONG! Then you just had to rub our nose in it by nailing the 8 inch-er...
    grin.gif


    -Pat
     
    #18
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    155 Scenars with 46grs RE15 in Lapua brass: 2750fps with a .508 BC bullet. They should shoot fine through the range.

    With the 10-twist I've had stability problems at 100 meters with the 170gr Lapua HPS at 2630fps. They hammer at 300 and beyond, though.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...78ft above sea level.</div></div>Why? Is it a 78ft tower now?
    laugh.gif
     
    #19
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are seriously Pussies Elite if you are talking about recoil differences between two different 308 bullets.

    I think I have heard it all and can die now, surely the world can't exist much longer with this line of thinking.

    </div></div>

    No shit. Shooting a .308 is like shooting a BB gun.
     
    #20
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy2Times</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting a .308 is like shooting a BB gun.</div></div>Yup: the hold-overs are similar.
    laugh.gif
     
    #21
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy2Times</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are seriously Pussies Elite if you are talking about recoil differences between two different 308 bullets.

    I think I have heard it all and can die now, surely the world can't exist much longer with this line of thinking.

    </div></div>

    No shit. Shooting a .308 is like shooting a BB gun. </div></div>

    After shooting my 7WSM with no brake I would have to agree with this.
     
    #22
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    all childish "me tarzan, you jane" chest-thumping masturbation insults aside, let's get back on track....


    speaking of the HSM ammo, can those 7.62x51 NATO m118LR rounds run fine out of a .308? or does the same apply to the .308 as does the .223 in that running 5.56 is a BAD idea unless you know an insane doctor or God himself? will 7.62x51 NATO go BOOM instead of BANG in a .308?
     
    #24
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are seriously Pussies Elite if you are talking about recoil differences between two different 308 bullets.

    I think I have heard it all and can die now, surely the world can't exist much longer with this line of thinking.</div></div>

    An here I thought, NOBODY, was the only one that could,... Word Up!
    grin.gif
     
    #25
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    Why Corbon over other loads? Seems like Black Hills or Hornady or even Federal Premium would do the job as well as Corbon?
     
    #26
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy2Times</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting a .308 is like shooting a BB gun.</div></div>Yup: the hold-overs are similar.
    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    I was speaking strictly about recoil.
     
    #30
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    ww, 46.5gr varget (out of my 20") with 155 sierra's works on a calm day, 168's or 175's if needed. You can try 6mmbr.com for more help. You can go to reloadersnest.com for a burn rate chart to help with the best powder for that length barrel.

    As far as recoil goes,... it seems to me your just as dead, weither it's from an ice pick or a.22 short or an rpg stuck up your nose. If you have to shoot the damn thing more than once, ... what the fuck were you doing during training? blue
     
    #33
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    What does WWBrown mean when he says, "I have been asked to set the rifle up shoot up to 1,000 yards"?

    The 1:10 twist suggests heavy bullets. If you are using a Long Action, you could throat the barrel to seat 200 or 210gr match bullets and still have magazine feed functions; but, that would result in a very specialized rifle...

    Optimium twist for 168/175 gr bullets is about 1:11. You could theoretically shoot even heavier bullets than 210gr from that 1:10 twist barrel. The 240gr matchking might even be a good choice if you can get velocity to about 2150fps. That bullet could be a single-load proposition, even in a Long Action receiver...

    I suspect an 18" barrel is less than optimum for any kind of accuracy, due to harmonics more than velocity factors. Benchrest guys can shoot any length they want, with shorter, stouter contours being preferred. Yet, most BR shooters go for a 20-22" barrel as these seem to be more conducive to tight grouping which suggests harmonics and vibratory waves balance out best at those lengths as bullet travels the tube. Or so I understand it...

    To make more velocity, there is always the .308win Ackley Improved. Redding catalogs a die set, plus you can shoot factory loads in any AI chamber...

    I have a 21.5" #9 contour Shilen match barrel in ,308AI on Rem 700 LA, but its twist is 1:11. Not interested in 1k yd shooting with this one, but a 180/190 match bullet would likely make the grade just fine.

    Seems like about all you can do is optimize what you have to work with for accuracy at 100/200 and go from there. You face barrel issues and action issues, plus cartridge issues; unless you have leeway to optimize for one specific longrange load, and the owner is okay with single-round loading.

    No one I have heard of or read about orders an 18" .30cal barrel specifically for 1000yd shooting. Do your customer a favor and suggest a longer barrel or maybe a Long Action.

    There is an old saying that goes, "You can't get there from here". While that 18" rifle might put rounds on target at 1000yds, I doubt it will do so with reliable frequency which will approach what others consider 1000 yd accuracy. That would be holding 10 consecutive rds in an 8" circle. That would be about .75moa.
     
    #34
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    do your self a favor and build the customer whatever they want. It can be done, it has been done, it has been videotaped being done. Here come the naysayers.

    Low Light please go back out there and shoot the fucking 8 incher 10 times so we dont have to suffer this anymore. Good God...My smith is also a short hater. He argues every time I want to cut one shorter than 24 inches. Damn, Its my gun and if it wont shoot its my problem thats what I always end up telling him before he saws 'em off.

    Oh and make sure you put on the sims vibration lab recoil pad if you decide to shoot the 175s WTF??
     
    #35
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 ya

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    </div></div>

    that is messed up reasoning.
     
    #36
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot86</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the sig line shit is pretty gay as well... </div></div>

    +1
     
    #37
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    i have never had any luck shooting 308 to a 1000 out of a 20 inch AIAW using 175 grain SMK. never tried the 155 grain bullets---sounds like the way to go to try with the 18 inch, but it just doesn't seem like it would very accurate---- now that i think about it---I JUST DON'T KNOW!!!
     
    #38
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    The 1:10 twist suggests heavy bullets. If you are using a Long Action, you could throat the barrel to seat 200 or 210gr match bullets and still have magazine feed functions; but, that would result in a very specialized rifle...
    </div></div>

    The 1:10 twist suggests bullets with a long bearing surface, such as 155 Scenars.

    If you were using a long action, why would you need to long throat the rifle?



    1:10 is a much more versatile twist (in my little brain at least), allowing more flexibility because it hasn't over-spun my 168's and I have it if I go for long bullets.

    If the customer wants a 1:10 18" 308 set up for 1K, build it and put the food on the table!
     
    #39
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    Sober,

    Not too into chambering dynamics, are you? A barrel can be "throated" for a specific bullet. The Clymer .308Win match reamer throats for the 168gr smk; for example. If you were going to shoot 220/240 matchkings in a .308win the reamer would not remove enough barrel material to allow the bullet to seat without being jammed very deep into the lands.

    The Long Action allows a longer heavier bullet to be seated so it does not protrude into the ctg case, below the neck. Yet, if your barrel is not throated to allow the bullet to seat without being jammed into the lands/rifling, your bullet will be pressed back into the case anyway and with a full charge of powder, cause a dangerous over-pressure condition.

    I am unaware that "long bearing surface" has any effect on defining necessary twist rate. Bullet weight is the prime consideration for barrel twist rate. Although the greater the diameter of the bullet, the less twist rate is needed to stabilize a bullet. The lighter the bullet, the less twist.
    Benchrest shooters may want 1:14 or 1:12 for 45-52gr .224 bullets, but the .223rem Service Rifle shooter wants 1:7 or 1:8 for 80gr bullets or 1:6.5 for 90gr bullets. BR shoots are 100-200yds. SR shoots 200-600yds. A 1:10 is about minimum for a 300gr .338 bullet, but most .338 barrel twist rates are slower as they are designed for 250gr or lighter weight bullets.
    Hope that makes sense...

    Bullet bearing area is a concern when you are interpolating loads between two bullets of same weight, because pressure is higher, all things being equal, for the bullet with greater bearing area. Actually, there are some bullets that are longer, but have less bearing area due to their design than shorter bullets of the same weight, like a cast bullet with many lubricating grooves versus one with fewer grooves. Long versus short boattail, and then there are relieved bearing area/ogive designs.

     
    #40
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am unaware that "long bearing surface" has any effect on defining necessary twist rate. Bullet weight is the prime consideration for barrel twist rate. Although the greater the diameter of the bullet, the less twist rate is needed to stabilize a bullet. The lighter the bullet, the less twist.</div></div>The length of the bullet determines the twist-rate. Longer bullets need faster twist. Weight is a factor, but it's less important.

    And doubling the twist rate will increase pressure less than one per cent - not very much at all.
     
    #41
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    Graham,

    I said nothing about twist rate influencing pressure. Actually, the .338 diameter match bullets represent the best solution to longrange accuracy because their higher weight gives them higher ballistic coefficiency and much less bearing area; therefore lower pressure at same driven velocity than a smaller diameter bullet of equal weight.

    Most longer VLD type bullets have actually shorter bearing areas than others of their same weight class because the bullet is longer from the ogive to the tip and may have an elongated boat tail also. And I do know about "hollow point" boat tail match bullets being weighted in the bearing area as opposed to forward. They are not a true hollowpoint as much as a folded jacket forward design.

    The bullet makers like Sierra usually specify faster twist rates for bullets like the 90gr .224, 107gr 6mm, and 240gr .308 etc, because those bullets are heavier than bullets barrels in those diameters (and others) were rifled to handle.

    It is pretty evident that a 300gr smk is much heavier than a 250gr boattail gameking. Longer? Undoubtedly. Where else can the weight go? But, I have seen nothing from the bullet makers about VLD (longest design) bullets In Normal Bullet Weights For That Caliber needing more twist.

    Notice I said "in normal bullet weights for that caliber".

    Most VLD bullets are pretty special use, single load only propositions. They are too long to load to magazine length. Berger has introduced an 80 or 81 gr mag length .224 for Service Rifle shooters, IIRC.

    I suppose you have hit on another reason for WW Brown to go Long Action for this rifle; namely to enable magazine loading of VLD bullets. Seems he has the twist for anything in the .308 world with the 1:10". I don't shoot VLD bullets because I want all my rounds to be mag length functional. My .308win AI on Long Action has not been specially throated to shoot 240gr match kings. I have yet to try shooting even the 200gr smk's I do have because I am saving them for .300win loads.

    Anyway, in almost every situation that could use a faster twist barrel, the bullet weight is the driving factor. I say you can't get a substantially longer bullet without adding to its weight, and I know of no super-high Ballistic Coefficient (or Sectional Density) bullet that is not in the heaviest weight category for its bullet diameter.
     
    #42
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    HEY GUYS JUS T A ? I AM THINKING ABOUT PURCHASEING AN 5R .308,OR AN 30.06 MATCH BARREL FROM KRIEGER OR OTHERS COMPANYIES. STOCK H AND S, AN MAC STOCK,USING A MAG .700RECIVER.

    WHICH ONE .308 OR 30.06/ BOTH WILL BE USED FOR UP TO 1K YARDS.

    I, HAVE AN CDL REM .300WIN PENCIL NECK BARREL SHOOTS GREAT TO 300YDS BUT NEVER GOT A CHANCE TO SHOOT LONGER THAN THAT AND BEFORE I GO TO WILLIAMSPORT PA I,THINK I NEED A NEW RIG?

    WAITING FO AN REPLY,THANKS IN ADVANCE
     
    #44
    Re: .308 Win w/ 18" 1-10" twist barrel to 1,000 yards

    Do you have any ballistic tables for that barrel with different loads ? I have a ptr91 gi. Its got a rhinemetal bolt carrier,heavy buffer and a muzzle mizer brake. I had a rail welded on it and the leupold mark 4 4.5 x 14x 50 will be here this weekend. Ive got fn 147 nato, wolf 150gr, and ppu match 175. The rifle has a 18"barrel 1 in 10 twist. Does anyone have or know where i can find velocity info and bc on those rounds. Im planning on trying to shoot to 1000 yards.
     
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