308win Bartlein 5R vs Krieger 4 Groove Accuracy Testing

[padom]

So some of you may have seen the debate a few months back about which 308 barrel is more accurate. Some smiths only use Krieger 4 grooves, some only use Bartlein 5R's. Some wont even chamber one and vice versa. I had a bunch of people asking me to do a side by side, all else being equal test so I reached out to both Bartlein and Krieger and they both donated barrels for this test. Big thank you to @Frank Green over at Bartlein and Todd House over at Krieger for the donations and continuing to support Snipers Hide and these reviews.

Just so we are all on the same page, this is a sample size of one each. Both barrels are as close as possible to the same twist, Bartlein sent me a 1:11.25 and Krieger sent me a 1:11. These barrels were both chambered by Keystone Accuracy using the same reamer, both were chopped at 24", both muzzles threaded 5/8-24. They will both be shot on the same setup which is listed below.

I will work up the best load for both barrels using 168 SMK, 168 TMK, 175 SMK and 175 TMK. Powders that will be tested are IMR4064, H4895 and Varget. I wont be chasing velocity, all testing will be accuracy based. I have 2 brand new boxes of Lapua brass, 1 for each barrel for the testing.

I dont have any Federal Gold Medal Match 168 and 175 ammo to test factory ammo in these barrels. But if anyone wants to donate any, I would be happy to test in both barrels.

Test Setup

XLR Envy Pro JV Competition with all weight kits
Bighorn/Zermatt TL3 DLC
BixN Andy TacSport Pro 2 Stage with Low Sear
Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29x56 APRS1 MIL
Seekins PMR Rings
MDT Cyke Pod
PVA QD Rugged Suppressors Brake
Rugged Surge 7.62 for suppressed testing
Precision Underground 3D Rear Bag
Precision Underground Suppressor cover

Barrel Specs

24" Heavy Varmint
Shouldered TL3 Tenon
308 Bisley Chamber
Muzzle Threaded 5/8-24
300/308
Bartlein 1:11.25
Krieger 1:11

Reloading Specs

Dillon 550c
Dedicated Brass Prep Toolhead
Mighty Armory 308win FL Sizing Die
Mighty Armory Decapping Die
Dedicated Loading Toolhead
Mighty Armory Decapping Die to clear flash holes
Dillon Powder Die w/Area419 Funnel
Forster Ultra Micrometer Seating Die


First up will be the Krieger. Its installed and ready to go. You will notice in the pictures below, I stamped a B at 6 o'clock to identify the Bartlein and a K to identify the Krieger.



Krieger Barrel












Bartlein Barrel

 

[hafejd30]

Following

 

[djarecke]

Cool!

 

[jcmullis2]

This is a great post. Thanks for doing this. I’m gonna go with “K”. Not because it’s better but one has to come out on top so I picked “K”. I doubt they’ll be any discernible difference. No doubt “B” is a fine barrel and I don’t want to offend any of you “B’s” out there.

 

[atvman400]

I really hope the Bartlein 5R doesn't do good. I really wanted a 1:10 twist in my 308 and they didn't have that option in 5R when I ordered mine so I had to go with standard 4 groove. It shoots but I have heard the 5R are so much easier to clean.

 

[Caihlen]

Watching

 

[Supersubes]

It’s a small samples size as padom noted. I have no such concerns about 4 vs 5R, so this will just be a curiosity for me. Thanks padom.

 

[Matt_3479]

Can’t wait to see the results. I think this test will be awesome!! I shoot all 5r’s (benchmark, bartlein, ks and hell’s canyon) and they all shoot wicked and clean really nice. Almost had a Kreiger 4 groove and order got cancelled last minute due to covid at borders and went with a KS barrel 5r instead.

 

[XLR308]

If i was to put money on it I would bet on a tie.
Two of the best barrel makers in the business shot head to head with as much as possible being equal.

 

[pmclaine]

Love my Krieger 4 groove SS .308. Most accurate gun I own.

Have a Bartlein .223 in cro. Its also a great gun.

Got a Bartlein barrel at LRI that will be an experiment LH, GT, think I went from 1:10 to 1:9.25.

The Schneider on my M40A1 is also sweet.

"These are Great Days We are Living Bros!"





1. Inane comments posted to ensure I can follow a neat thread.

 

[Bakwa]

Watching.
Thanks for the effort.

 

[dirthead1]

Tag. Have a krieger and a bartlein for my Bighorn TL3. I’m sure they are both more capable than I am, so I’m in for the results and debate.

 

[Newbie2020]

I vote “B” only because I’m a @Frank Green fan boy. And because my 6cm Bartlein is a hammer.

 

[Brux]

I'd like to see you test them with some FGMM 168's and 175's

 

[padom]

I'd like to see you test them with some FGMM 168's and 175's

You provide it, I'll test all you want

 

[TxWelder35]

Have a Krieger chambered by Keystone in 260 sitting here waiting for my current barrel to burn out. Should be an interesting test.
are you going to use the same loads for each barrel or tune each load to the barrel and see how much you can squeeze out?

 

[padom]

Have a Krieger chambered by Keystone in 260 sitting here waiting for my current barrel to burn out. Should be an interesting test.
are you going to use the same loads for each barrel or tune each load to the barrel and see how much you can squeeze out?

Both

 

[XLR308]

@padom just curious how you will manage barrel speed up since both are new and could possible get out of tune during the test ?
Or am I over thinking that

 

[padom]

@padom just curious how you will manage barrel speed up since both are new and could possible get out of tune during the test ?
Or am I over thinking that

Both barrels will have 100rd through it before any testing/load development starts.

 

[hafejd30]

I’ll bet they run neck and neck unless one is a Monday morning or Friday afternoon barrel

The winner takes on Brux

Cause that’s what I shoot

 

[padom]

If we are taking bets on the outcome .... my bet is the precision will be within 1/10th of an moa of each other

I’m admittedly very far outside my lane but I think the chamber job is really critical for accuracy and since the chamber job will be identical hopefully with the same tools/reamers back to back to minimize differences

where I think some possible differences could be in barrel blanks would be how well they deal with heat or stress from good/bad stress relief or how much stress was imparted time barrel during rifling might cause some stringing with a really hot barrel

also my opinion would be the quality of steel and heat treat could affect barrel life too

ETA: if I had to bet on one it would be Bartlein because that’s what my gunsmith likes the best and he’s tested way more than I ever will lolol

These are cut rifled barrels....stress is induced during rifling with button barrels which displace metal and induce stress that has to then be relieved...that is not the case with cut rifled barrels which are rifled by cutting away small amounts of metal over many many passes....thats why cut rifled barrels take much longer to rifle vs a button being pulled through a barrel very fast...

 

[padom]

agree 100%

and, as I stated above, I’m certainly no expertbut this is what I was referring to from this article:

“There seems to be some confusion among shooters, and even gunsmiths, about stress relief in riflebarrels. Maybe the following will be helpful.

Commercial barrel makers, whether they are using the cut, or the button riflingprocess, stainless or chrome-moly steel, all get their barrel blanks in the same metallurgical condition. That is, in a heat-treated and tempered state, i.e. hardness R/C 28 to 32, with a tensile strength of around 135,000 to 150,000 PSI. This state of affairs is reached by the usual heat-treat methods that is, stated simply, by bringing the steel bars to their critical temperature (1550°F, in the case of 4140 (chrome-moly)), and quenching (usually) in a liquid medium such as oil.

This process leaves the steel in a full hard state, too hard to use for making rifle barrels, not to mention full of stresses. To relieve these stresses, and to reduce the degree of hardness to an appropriate level, the steel is then tempered, or "drawn," by reheating to 1000°F (again for 4140 or equal). This lowers the hardness to the 28-32 R/C range that we are looking for.

The secondary effect of this tempering operation is that it relieves residual stresses within the bar. Unless the bar has been subjected to some post heat-treat mechanical trauma such as bending, it is relatively stress free. This is why we can use it as received for making rifle barrels.”

If you're a "cut rifle" barrel maker, you're home free. If you button rifle, you're not out of the woods yet. Button rifling, as you know, swages, or cold forms the grooves into the bored and reamed hole. In doing so, compression stresses called "radial" or "hoop" (tensile) stress are introduced into the barrel bar. These stresses radiate in diminishing intensity from the bore toward the outside of the barrel.”

Bev Fitchett's Guns

www.bevfitchett.us

They are talking about barrel steel, before it arrives at the barrel makers.....not inducing stress during rifling like you said....

Now let's get this thread back on track

 

[MikeRTacOps]

I'll send some Fed Match 168 BTHP pm me your address...

Mike R.

 

[padom]

I'll send some Fed Match 168 BTHP pm me your address...

Mike R.

Awesome. So I guess we have factory ammo to add to the testing thanks to @MikeRTacOps

 

[Jumper]

Following. Thanks for advancing the art!

 

[Surly]

Looking forward to the results...thanks @padom

 

[Lunchbox27]

Following

 

[Hoyt7mm]

I doubt there will be a statistically significant difference between them.

Also curious if you will have more than just you behind the rifle once loads are developed. Just a thought to increase sample size and reduce possible shooter error. *Please don't take this as a knock on your ability - I've followed your reviews closely and have plenty of confidence in your skills.*

 

[brianf]

I love actual data more than most.

this site is full of half truths and hearsay.

there are more than few members who really know their shit or have been down range giving actual experience but get drowned out by BS

any time you ask a question and want the results backed up by data the tread goes dead quite. And everyone goes back to answering what 5k scope is better.

that being said I only hope this thread stays in the up and up...and doesn’t morph into a pissing match which causes the barrel makers to back out from answering once in a while.

Dying for results.

Brian

 

[ShtrRdy]

What are you using for thread caps?

 

[Krob95]

I have two kreiger barrels. One in 6BR on an impact that was chambered by keystone, and then a 280 barrel on a model 70 done up by RWS. The 6BR absolutely hammers, the 280 is in load dev but shows promise. Interested to see the results.

 

[jakelly]

It might be fun, and useful to these companies to start a poll. @padom would you mind if I started a poll?

 

[padom]

It might be fun, and useful to these companies to start a poll. @padom would you mind if I started a poll?

This is a accuracy test thread specifically between 5R and 4 groove.. if you want to start another thread about anything else be my guest

This thread will be for the results, testing info, data and discussion about THAT info.

I'm saying it now so all are warned, I wont let this thread be sidetracked or turn into a pissing match or side show/fan boy thread.

 

[brianf]

^^^ 1,000,000,000 %

 

[Rob01]

I highly doubt there will be much if any difference as someone mentioned above. Having used both brands and 5R and 4s in 6.5s and .308s I found both to be excellent and very accurate but will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[littlepod]

If I have a Proof comp contour steel barrel, what kind of exact barrel dimensions does that mean in terms of grooves etc?

 

[spife7980]

If I have a Proof comp contour steel barrel, what kind of exact barrel dimensions does that mean in terms of grooves etc?

The external contour doesn’t have anything to do with the internal rifling

 

[littlepod]

The external contour doesn’t have anything to do with the internal rifling

Okay, any idea what Proof does with rifling?

 

[Supersubes]

Okay, any idea what Proof does with rifling?

It’s a standard profile land with four to six grooves depending on bore size.

 

[LibertyArms]

It will be really thought to tell a difference if your able to. I would think there is more variance in the shooter than the barrels. Both should shoot great regardless. Maybe if we can take the shooter out of it IE: a mount for a vise the action bolts into ? Maybe I can machine a steel base for the barreled action for yours test ? Even then ammo or loads for each may vary? I may have a couple boxes of fgmm to use a baseline . PM if Interested.

 

[padom]

I loaded up 50pcs of Virgin Lapua with the good old Dan Newberry sleuthing the FGMM 175 load (41.8gr IMR4064) under a 175 SMK 0.02 off the lands today. Just wanted to get rounds down the barrel, zero the scope and form this brass to the chamber.

I have to say, for zero load development, I would take this load any day. Over 30rds, velocity was 2588 with a SD 8 over the Labradar. There were 15rds that had much more noticable neck tension than the rest. I seperated those out and shot them last. They are the groups in the green box. In my experience, this is typical of new Lapua brass. Thats one of the reasons why I like to shoot it first, then start load development with 1x brass and 100rds down a new barrel.

Ill load up the remaining 50pcs of new brass with this same load and bang some steel out to 700 with it next week. Then I will have 100rd down the barrel and start load development.

@MikeRTacOps sent some FGMM 168 ammo today, so Ill test that as well to see a) how it shoots out of both barrels, and b) how it compares to tailored handloads in both barrels.

 

[padom]

It will be really thought to tell a difference if your able to. I would think there is more variance in the shooter than the barrels. Both should shoot great regardless. Maybe if we can take the shooter out of it IE: a mount for a vise the action bolts into ? Maybe I can machine a steel base for the barreled action for yours test ? Even then ammo or loads for each may vary? I may have a couple boxes of fgmm to use a baseline . PM if Interested.

Ill shoot you a PM

 

[MikeRTacOps]

5 boxes of a total of a 100 rounds are inbound they left today...
If you need more let me know...

Mike R.

 

[Reload10]

If not said already- are you doing the same cleaning procedure, if any, during testing?

 

[padom]

If not said already- are you doing the same cleaning procedure, if any, during testing?

Sure am

 

[brianf]

Sure am

but I thought no one cleans their rifles until accuracy falls off ...lol

 

[padom]

but I thought no one cleans their rifles until accuracy falls off ...lol

I am definitely in the less is best group when it comes to cleaning.

Ill be cleaning as follows on both barrels:
After 100rds, Ill make 4-5 strokes with a wet nylon brush then dry patch it out. I then shoot 10 fouling rounds before shooting my OCW. Ill then do all my load development and seating depth testing. Thats about it

 

[bgavin]

Following

 

[SharpsNitro]

I ran across this article by John Krieger that people might find interesting:

What Is 5R Rifling?

5R rifling has been around 40-plus years now but judging from the questions I’ve heard there seems to be little information on it.

gunsmagazine.com

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Thanks for doing this