308win Bartlein 5R vs Krieger 4 Groove Accuracy Testing

[Frank Green]

This is all speculation and hearsay.

@Frank Green can speak more on this, but Bartlein builds tons of ammunition test barrels that are shot out of a test fixture with excellent accuracy results from my conversations with Frank. Manufacturers use these fixtures with test barrels for bullet and ammo testing. They arent shooting a chassis/stocked rifle, BR rig, etc for their testing, all are out of a test fixture. If there was an accuracy problem with a test fixture, they would be using something else....

We will find out once I have the test fixture in hand, I work off data and facts, not what someone told me some time somewhere.

On one hand I would say yes there is merit to a rifle and having it recoil etc....and it can aid in accuracy.

On the other hand things like rail guns or in particular the accuracy fixtures used by ammo makers, bullet makers etc...where they clamp on the barrel and the action etc...just hangs out in the wind and is pretty similar to rail gun set ups.

I’ve seen plenty of the accuracy rigs shoot groups down in the .2xxs and do it consistently and I don’t mean a 3 shot or 5 shot groups. Typically 10 shot groups.

I’ve also seen accuracy testing done where X amount of rounds have to be shot in x amount of time and out to distances of 300 and 600 yards. For example a 20 shot group and all of the rounds have to be fired within like 1 minute.

It’s pretty amazing what these accuracy rigs can produce.

Keep in mind that a given lot of ammo might not even produce accuracy better than .7moa. Heck I’ve even seen box match ammo that wouldn’t produce 1moa. The bullet could, the case wasn’t an issue or the primer but could be a powder issue.

So they use the accuracy rigs to remove as many variables as possible. From the components to the human error as well.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Seating depth tests loaded up for both 175smk and 175 tmk. Also, the FGMM 168smk factory ammo from @MikeRTacOps showed up yesterday. With the rain about to start and continue through tomorrow I hope to get back out Tuesday

Any idea when the results will be up?

 

[padom]

Any idea when the results will be up?

This is an ongoing test. I already posted the initial krieger testing the other day. The entire test of both barrels will take weeks

 

[max1840]

Thanks for this. Following

 

[jamebeck]

Following.

 

[Gustav7]

Following. Appreciate the research and time

 

[Genin]

Following

 

[Steel head]

Honestly just one of each barrel is kinda a toss up test but seeing as keystone did them up they’ll probably hammer.

 

[Krupples]

Every reloaders dream project.

 

[MERICA-LRS]

I love my 5R barrels I have several, always shoot accurate and clean easy... I doubt theres a difference in accuracy, barrel will outshoot most shooters anyways

 

[RayDBonz]

I have some of each, so I'm sure they will be the same.

 

[padom]

Lots of updates/new info for you guys.

Here are the Krieger seating depth test targets for the 175 SMK and 175 TMK


175 SMK Seating Depth Test 42gr IMR 4064







175 TMK Seating Depth Test 41.7gr IMR 4064







I then shot the 5x5 tests @ 100yd with the final loads



175 SMK 42gr IMR 4064 5x5 AGG: 0.553"







175 TMK 41.7gr IMR 4064 5x5: 0.450"






And finally the 5x5 with the 168gr FGMM Factory Ammo. Some interesting things to note was it did have a higher SD then the reloads with some bigger velocity swings and a shot of that info is also below.


5x5 AGG: 0.665"
2779
ES 53
SD 15

 

[brianf]

once again excellent info.

all joking aside (i dont know how to do it) but if anyone on this thread sets up a go fund me i think we should send a few bucks Padom's way...i know i would

hes actually putting in time, effort, and $

posting real results not regurgitating wives tales and info from 10 years ago

 

[padom]

In conclusion with the Krieger barrel testing here, across 25rd (5x5) with factory ammo its just over a half moa shooter, with 175SMK handloads its a half moa shooter all day and with 175 TMK handloads its a sub halfmoa shooter all day. Can it shoot groups in the .1's - .2's, yes. But I like to gauge rifles on its consistent accuracy, not what it can do once in a while and that info is what has been posted.

Next up, lets see how the Bartlein compares all else being equal.

 

[padom]

After finish the Krieger testing yesterday I moved on to the exact same process for the Bartlein barrel today.

I removed the scope, removed the barreled action from the chassis and put it in my barrel vice. I removed the Krieger and torqued on the Bartlein to the exact same torque of 80 ft lb. Pushed a wet patch then dry patchs through the new barrel to make sure the bore was clean. Re-installed the scope to the exact same position on the scope base and torque the ring screws to the same 55 in lb.. I put the BA back into the XLR chassis and torqued those action bolts to the same 65 in lb.

I loaded opened the brand new box of Lapua brass for this bartlein, same as I did for the Krieger. I did nothing to the brass other than chamfer/debur the case mouths and seat primers. I loaded 50rd with 42gr IMR 4064 and 175smk identical to the final 175smk load for the Krieger except this is virgin brass. You could tell, just like I could tell with the Krieger new brass varying neck tension on this virgin brass. Some bullets were much harder to seat then others..

I shot the 50rd on 2 targets below. The first target, I shot the first 3 rounds down this new Bartlein barrel (marked), making corrections after each shot... I proceeded to shoot 4-10 (7 rds) which all fell into a nice clover leaf hole. It was noted that there wasnt really a break in period for things to tighten up, it was shooting tight from the first 10rds down the barrel.

The aggregate across the first 47rd was an impressive 0.557" (8x5 + 7 shot group) with this virgin brass and no load development. SD was higher at 10.8 out of this Bartlein with this load vs the 7 out of the Krieger but no thats comparing Virginia brass vs fully processed 1x brass....

Will load up another 50rd to fireform and get down the barrel then will start load development just like the Krieger.

 

[Frank Green]

Virgin brass tends to give bigger spreads on the SD's vs fired brass. Still a 10.8 SD there is nothing wrong with that. Also don’t forget neck tension etc...

Later, Frank

 

[padom]

Finally got out today to shoot the last 50 rounds of virgin brass. Shot them prone at 200yds today. For no load development yet and virgin brass with very noticeable variance in neck tension they shot really well. Looking forward to getting this brass sized up and testing underway.









This is the first 5 shots on steel @ 200yd cold bore.




Shot 10 more shots adjusting elevation... Here's shots 11-15






Then I shot these 8 consecutive groups in a row. Only waiting or cooling was every 10rd to load the mag. Pretty damn good.

 

[padom]

Got back out yesterday to shoot the OCW's out of the Bartlein. Everything the same as the Kreiger, same cleaning, same fouling, same OCW loads, etc. 100yd down barrel, all brass was FL sized with the Mighty Armory FL sizing die, trimmed, chamfer/debur just like the Krieger.

Comparing the Bartlein and Krieger OCW's, it seems the Bartlein favors the 175 SMK's across the charge weights consistency wise and the Kreiger favored the 175 TMK's. Will get some seating depth tests loaded up and shot so we can move to the 5x5's and factory ammo testing.

The barrel sped up 40fps right at that 115rd mark during the fouling loads before starting the OCW. Comparing the 42gr/175smk first 100rd speeds vs the actual 42gr charge weight on the OCW jumped 39fps. Looking at the Krieger 42gr 4064 / 175 SMK final numbers, they are within 5fps of the Bartlein so I would say the barrels are equally fast at this point. Neither is faster than the other with the same charge.

On the 42.0gr charge I pulled that shot left. Idiot rolled into the range next to me blasting off a muzzle loader when I was mid test.


175 SMK OCW - 100yd






175 TMK OCW - 100yd

 

[sierracharlie338]

This is awesome info and testing @padom

 

[brianf]

@padom
I see no one took my suggestion for a go fund me.
If you set one up..I’ll be the first donation.

 

[Frank Green]

The barrel sped up 40fps right at that 115rd mark during the fouling loads before starting the OCW. Comparing the 42gr/175smk first 100rd speeds vs the actual 42gr charge weight on the OCW jumped 39fps. Looking at the Krieger 42gr 4064 / 175 SMK final numbers, they are within 5fps of the Bartlein so I would say the barrels are equally fast at this point. Neither is faster than the other with the same charge.

Just a fyi to everyone.... Barrel velocity has more to do with bore and groove sizes for the most part. When the same chamber reamer is used, same ammo etc....the closer the bore and groove size are from one barrel the next the more consistent the velocity will be from one to the next.

changing groove size bigger or smaller has a bigger impact than changing the bore size but it does effect it also.

Just recently we made three 6.5CM ammunition pressure test barrels. Same reamer etc...and the barrels only varied a .0001" in size from one to the next. The barrels after 100 rounds being fired thru each....the velocity was with in 10fps of one another.

Krieger being cut rifled also the bore and groove sizes will be more consistent vs. a button or hammer forged barrel. If the sizes are close to ours....velocity wise then they should be pretty close like it's looking like.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[BruntBronze]

i would think theres not enough twist for those pill wieghts. on my 18" barrel 147's are the accuracy load...except 208 amax.

 

[rijndael]

i would think theres not enough twist for those pill wieghts.

175s work fine in 1:11 barrels. I run 195s in a 1:11.25.

 

[padom]

It was a little foggy today but I was able to see the targets just fine. I shot the seating depth tests and the FGMM 168gr factory ammo 5x5 today. Next up will be the final tests, 5x5 with the 175 SMK and 175 TMK handloads






175 SMK 42.0gr Seating Test






175 TMK 41.6gr Seating Test








Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr 5x5

5x5 AGG: 0.557"
2768
ES 53 / SD 13

Same lot/ammo shot out of the Krieger. The Bartlein shot it a little better by 0.11" vs the Krieger FGMM 5x5











175 TMK 5x5

 

[padom]

@padom
I see no one took my suggestion for a go fund me.
If you set one up..I’ll be the first donation.

I wont be setting up any GoFundMe but feel free to PM me if you ever want to donate. Much appreciated as I do put a lot of money out of pocket each year on these reviews and tests.

 

[Baron23]

Gr

It was a little foggy today but I was able to see the targets just fine. I shot the seating depth tests and the FGMM 168gr factory ammo 5x5 today. Next up will be the final tests, 5x5 with the 175 SMK and 175 TMK handloads






175 SMK 42.0gr Seating Test






175 TMK 41.6gr Seating Test








Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr 5x5

5x5 AGG: 0.557"
2768
ES 53 / SD 13

Same lot/ammo shot out of the Krieger. The Bartlein shot it a little better by 0.11" vs the Krieger FGMM 5x5

Great shooting.
New guy question, do you believe that there was some specific reason that the POI on the 168 FGGM went up on the bottom row of groups?

 

[padom]

Gr

Great shooting.
New guy question, do you believe that there was some specific reason that the POI on the 168 FGGM went up on the bottom row of groups?

So ignore POI on the FGMM target. The gun is zero for the 175 handloads. The FGMM groups were shot starting with the bottom row, left to right and point of aim was the center of the square box.... You can see how high they impacted with the 175SMK zero. So what I did to shoot the last 2 top groups was use the same POA as groups 2 and 3, I just dialed .4 mils on my turret so they would impact above groups 2 and 3. If I aimed at those top squares, because the 168smk was impacting so high with the 175smk zero, they would have been either on the very top edge or off the top edge of the paper. We couldnt have that....

 

[padom]

This should make more sense. I labeled the order I shot the groups....and noted my POA for Groups 4 and 5 were the same as groups 2 and 3 but I dialed UP 0.4mils for Groups 4 and 5. This was done for simplicity, I didnt want to take my turrets off, remove my zero stop just to be able to dial down for this FGMM 5x5 when we are looking at accuracy consistency, not POA/POI.

 

[brianf]

I wont be setting up any GoFundMe but feel free to PM me if you ever want to donate. Much appreciated as I do put a lot of money out of pocket each year on these reviews and tests.

Pm inbound

 

[Frank Green]

i would think theres not enough twist for those pill wieghts. on my 18" barrel 147's are the accuracy load...except 208 amax.

175's will fly out of a 12 twist no problem. Even a 190 will shoot just fine. Depending on velocity the 175 will shoot great out of a true 13 twist barrel as well but me personally wouldn't go any slower than a 12 twist for up to conventional 190gr bullets at 308win velocities.

I've got 30cal barrel in 308win in 1-8 twist, 1-11, 1-11.25, and 1-12 on guns.

 

[OREGUN]

Pm sent.

I wont be setting up any GoFundMe but feel free to PM me if you ever want to donate. Much appreciated as I do put a lot of money out of pocket each year on these reviews and tests.

 

[Totoro]

Tag, thanks for your hard work and effort!

 

[NYresq]

Lurking in the shadows reading this thread...

I would have bet the velocity would clearly show one barrel is faster vs the other barrel (no guess as to which it would have been) but the fact for the same charge weight, they are almost identical is very eye opening for me.

And thanks for all this work, even for someone like me who doesn't handload, its still pretty interesting to see the results!

Do you have any idea when you will get to mount them to the steel and see how that affects the accuracy?

 

[Frank Green]

Lurking in the shadows reading this thread...

I would have bet the velocity would clearly show one barrel is faster vs the other barrel (no guess as to which it would have been) but the fact for the same charge weight, they are almost identical is very eye opening for me.

And thanks for all this work, even for someone like me who doesn't handload, its still pretty interesting to see the results!

Do you have any idea when you will get to mount them to the steel and see how that affects the accuracy?

Velocity is more effected by actual bore and groove size. Groove size will have the biggest impact. Tighter the groove....it will drive up pressures and should bump velocities. The closer the barrels are on size the less of a variance there will be. This is regardless of number or style of grooves for the most part.

Also what chamber reamer is used can effect this as well.

I don't know to the 4th decimal place what spec. the Krieger was made to on the bore and or groove size but if they are still running the same tolerances as us when we where there then the barrels should be with in a .0002" or so.

He used the same reamer to chamber both barrels. So that variable has been removed.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

So this will be interesting for the near future.....

One ammo place will be doing a test...4 groove, 6 groove, and 5R rifling and we are making all the barrels.

 

[akxx]

So this will be interesting for the near future.....

One ammo place will be doing a test...4 groove, 6 groove, and 5R rifling and we are making all the barrels.

Very interested. Please keep us updated on where we can see results.

 

[Newbie2020]

So this will be interesting for the near future.....

One ammo place will be doing a test...4 groove, 6 groove, and 5R rifling and we are making all the barrels.

Hopefully put this discussion to rest

 

[Frank Green]

Tey

Very interested. Please keep us updated on where we can see results.

It’ll be a while. They just ordered the barrels. I’m pretty sure it will involve Doppler radar testing.

 

[BruntBronze]

my money is on 4 groove, 5r, then 6 groove for muzzle velocity.

 

[glock63]

So this will be interesting for the near future.....

One ammo place will be doing a test...4 groove, 6 groove, and 5R rifling and we are making all the barrels.

Frank, have you noticed your gain twist barrels having amy affect on velocity? I have a 22 inch 30 cal 5r gain twist barrel from you guys that is stupid fast. Cleaning takes about 4 total patches too.

 

[Frank Green]

my money is on 4 groove, 5r, then 6 groove for muzzle velocity.

It’s been proven in ammunition pressure test barrels that we have made for Federal Cartridge, Hornady, Remington etc...where they have tested 4 groove, 6 groove and 5R.....there is no difference in velocity. Using the same reamer and holding the bore and groove sizes to the same tolerance we’ve made barrels in 338 Lapua and Norma, 300 Norma, WM, 6.5CM, 6CM, 7mm Rem. Mag., I can keep going on...but no difference with the number of grooves and velocity.

 

[pmclaine]

It’s been proven in ammunition pressure test barrels that we have made for Federal Cartridge, Hornady, Remington etc...where they have tested 4 groove, 6 groove and 5R.....there is no difference in velocity. Using the same reamer and holding the bore and groove sizes to the same tolerance we’ve made barrels in 338 Lapua and Norma, 300 Norma, WM, 6.5CM, 6CM, 7mm Rem. Mag., I can keep going on...but no difference with the number of grooves and velocity.

Sir please stop.

Your real world experience, proved through testing, will destroy peoples ability to go to the local shooting club and badger people that they must buy X and anything else is garbage.

How will people be able to make declarative statements like "anything other than 5R is shit" and belittle shooters with mere traditional 4 groove tubes?

Think how much "mental wealth" is being lost when it becomes not so much the "hype" but the quality that goes into the manufactured product (and most importantly, the ability of the guy pulling the trigger).



Edit - anxiously awaiting the completion of my new build featuring a .308 Bartlein LH Gain Twist.......I fully intend on lording it over lesser individuals about how any rifle unlike mine sucks.

 

[NBPRP]

Many years ago I had the occasion to find myself on the firing line, in the pits or around the campfire after a match to be in the presence of a number of individuals (though not all at one time) associated with the shooting discipline. If memory serves me correctly a short list would include Barret J. Obermeyer, John (Jack) Krieger, Mike Rock, Norm Brux, Earl and Ken Liebetrau, Steve Satern and Rudy Wadekamper to name a few. I think Broughton was also in the mix but not on a first name basis from what I can recollect. Not sure that I ever met Bartlein but understand he worked for Krieger for a time before he branched out on his own so maybe he was on the periphery but there again I'm not sure. Therefore macht nichts.

As one might expect the conversation(s) would eventually drift around to something barrel related and then the discussion(s) would begin. The pros and cons would be hashed out regarding 6 groove, 4 groove, 5R rifling as well as button pushing/pulling, broach, single point cut and hammer forge rifling as well as stress relieving and fluting of barrels. Sulphur inclusions in stainless steel resulting in barrels looking like a banana split down the middle after firing were also mentioned as well as barrel tapers/lengths, muzzle crowns, throat length and a plethora of accuracy related issues. The wealth of knowledge exchanged during a two day rifle match was priceless.

During one match 'Boots' spoke about working on a project for the military and supplying them with gain twist barrels, though I don't remember the twist rates, caliber or barrel length/contour or how many barrels he supplied them. At the end of the discussion 'Boots' gave the impression the military was not too enamored with 'the gain twist experiment'.

If the .308 Bartlein LH Gain Twist works out for you then maybe he figured out what Obermeyer and Krieger couldn't.

 

[atvman400]

any years ago I had the occasion to find myself on the firing line, in the pits or around the campfire after a match to be in the presence of a number of individuals (though not all at one time) associated with the shooting discipline. If memory serves me correctly a short list would include Barret J. Obermeyer, John (Jack) Krieger, Mike Rock, Norm Brux, Earl and Ken Liebetrau, Steve Satern and Rudy Wadekamper to name a few. I think Broughton was also in the mix but not on a first name basis from what I can recollect. Not sure that I ever met Bartlein but understand he worked for Krieger for a time before he branched out on his own so maybe he was on the periphery but there again I'm not sure. Therefore macht nichts.

Was this at Winnequah by any chance? Or was it before Winnequah?
Not saying other areas/states don't have a lot of knowledge to, yeah I'm looking at you Idaho and Montana, but it's crazy the barrel knowledge in southern Wisconsin.

 

[NBPRP]

Good Evening atvman400

To answer you question. Yes it was at Winnequah, and also Racine County Line (by the power plant amongst the cinder tailings area) and La Crosse off of Chipmunk Coulee, and Eau Claire off of 'QQ' as well as Wausau. 'Boots' use to go to most of those matches and Krieger was seen more at Racine and Winnequah though I do remember seeing him at Eau Claire, I think. Mike Rock was seen most frequently at Winnequah and maybe at La Crosse and /or Eau Claire.

Earl and Ken Liebetrau were seen at most of the Wisconsin matches and I think they went to Wisconsin Rapids once or twice. As for Rudy he was seen at the Mother's and Father's Day matches at La Crosse and the Pig Roast Matches at Eau Claire as well as matches at Red Wing MN and Faribault MN. I would have to do some checking but he might have been at Winnequah and/or Wausau though that would have been a hike for him and his wife Marge and daughter Penny.

Steve Satern was at Faribault and pretty sure he was at a Clear Lake/Mason City IA match shot on reduced targets due to it being at a reduced range 300 yds. maybe?

If one follows the barrel makers lineage it seems to all lead back to 'Boots' who I think employed Krieger initially until he branched out on his own. My understanding is it was an amicable split as I saw both 'Boots' and 'Jack' several times on the firing line a few targets apart with rifle in hand and magazine loaded waiting for the targets to go up. If there would have been any bad blood between the two a 'stray round' would have easily gotten rid of 'the competition' so to speak. Also while in the pits one could have run the other up, attached to the back of one of the targets just prior to a rapid fire string and that never happened. Instead the two would be engaged in a conversation about what were the benefits of a tight bore or if shallow grooves/lands were better than deep or if one bore cleaner was better than the other.

The discussions (usually in the pits) surrounding wear characteristics of chrome moly vs, stainless steel always drew a crowd especially when Rudy, with a glimmer in his eye and a mischievous smile, would proclaim, in a loud voice I might add, that he only shot off the shelf Douglas chrome moly barrels. The hoots, hollers and guffaws that followed were graciously allowed to die down before Rudy would casually look at the most boisterous offender of his proclamation and ask .."and how many Palma Teams have you been on?.

Also learned that 'Boots' ground all his own cutters and took some pride in the number of passes the cutter had to make in order to rifle a barrel. I was told the 'shavings' looked like talcum powder from fellow shooters that visited his shop.

During one of the Pig Roast matches at Eau Claire I was at the 600 yd. stage and was having some vertical stringing issues with difficulty holding the 10 ring. "Boots' was scoring on the target next to me and after a while leaned down and inquired if my sights were loose. Some quick checking determined that was not the problem. A few rounds later and a couple questions later 'Boots' asked "so how many rounds do you have through that barrel"? and my response was something like 5,000+ and thought nothing more of it. A few weeks later at Racine 'Boots' approached me and said matter-of-factly "you need a new barrel" and reached his hand out toward me that was clasped around a .308, 26" 5r twist in 11 stainless barrel and followed that up with "mail me a check".

Hopefully I didn't bore you with my reflections of the past.

 

[brianf]

Well how’d that barrel shoot?!

 

[krw]

I was not suprised at the overall results. I fully expected both bbls to shoot great and clean very easily. What did suprise me was how the TMK’s overall outshot the reg SMK’s. Makes me wish I would hav ratholed TMK’s instead of SMK’s. Thank You for this excellent test!!

 

[sinister]

The Japanese have a practice where the government and nation formally recognizes a "National Living Treasure."

Boots Obermyer's legacy was training most of the best cut-rifle barrel makers in the nation, if not the world. No wonder most got their start apprenticing under his tutelage.

 

[NBPRP]

Good Morning brianf.

It shot much better than what I had experienced in the past. The groups tightened up and my scores increased significantly as did my classification(surprise, surprise). It was a very forgiving barrel. It didn't foul to speak of and cleaned real easily. Also it wasn't finicky on what I pushed through it regarding bullet weight and/or powder charges.

Back then chronographs were not in everybody's budget and micrometers were not carried around in everybody's shirt pocket so empirical data
collection was rather rudimentary to say the least. Terms like 'could cover the group with a quarter' or 'it was the size of a dime' and 'just one ragged hole' were used to describe barrel/bullet/powder etc, performance.

The author of this thread is light years more advance regarding data collection and I tip my hat to him. Hopefully no offence was taken in my hijacking the thread.

 

[padom]

Good Morning brianf.

It shot much better than what I had experienced in the past. The groups tightened up and my scores increased significantly as did my classification(surprise, surprise). It was a very forgiving barrel. It didn't foul to speak of and cleaned real easily. Also it wasn't finicky on what I pushed through it regarding bullet weight and/or powder charges.

Back then chronographs were not in everybody's budget and micrometers were not carried around in everybody's shirt pocket so empirical data
collection was rather rudimentary to say the least. Terms like 'could cover the group with a quarter' or 'it was the size of a dime' and 'just one ragged hole' were used to describe barrel/bullet/powder etc, performance.

The author of this thread is light years more advance regarding data collection and I tip my hat to him. Hopefully no offence was taken in my hijacking the thread.

No offense taken my friend.