338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

[Lowlight]

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Where:</span> Outside Las Vegas Nevada

<span style="text-decoration: underline">When:</span> December 10th & 11th 2011

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Who:</span> Sniper's Hide along with the Acoustic Chronograph Team

<span style="text-decoration: underline">What:</span> 338 Bullets for extended testing for BC verification

<span style="text-decoration: underline">How:</span> We will use a new Acoustic Chronograph to test the bullets at distance.

MICROPHONE DISTANCES - Microphones will start at 775 and 850 (audio trap #1), 1,775 and 1,850 yards (audio trap #2). A static aiming point (18x24 armor plate silhouette painted bright white) will be used to provide a consistent aim point and projectile flight path for all rifles and projectiles.

A second Relay/ testing with microphones at 975 and 1,050 and 1,975 and 2,050, will be conducted with the same projectiles after the first relay is finished and the data briefly reviewed. (the goal is to create a range long enough to see virtually every projectile drop to subsonic at some point before it gets to the furthest microphone.) The easiest thing is to move the firing point back by 200 yards, leaving the microphones in place.

With Relay #2, there is also a need for spotters to keep eyes out for subsonic transition capability. While these are not going to be all "accuarate" loads from the test bed rifles (some ammo is not being load developed before use). If we do not see impact anywhere near the target, its safe to say that they do not transition well.

<span style="font-style: italic">Equipment intend to deliver to the site.</span>

Audio trap chronograph (2 laptops, 4 microphones);
18"x24" 3/8" AR500 Target for aim point
minimum 2 spotting scopes each on a stand or tripod w/ reticles

338LM Improved w/ 1:54" gain twist;
276 ZA 6.5 caliber loaded ammo - appropraite number of rounds

33LM w/ 1:9.5" twist standard twist barrel.
300 grain SMKs loaded ammo at 2,720 fps. - appropraite number of rounds

Those custom bullet makers who want to have their bullets available please contact me as soon as possible so we can sort this out. We will test any bullet provided.

Sniper's Hide will moderate this test so that all information is fairly collected. This is to help address the issues of the past with regards to custom 338 bullets. The use of the new acoustic chronograph will greatly help this process.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

To make this a little more interesting, ZA may compare two recent ZA 338 designs against its own (276 grain) ZA338/6.5-M, one of which is the hunt version weighing in at 300 grains.

This will be of particular interest to shooters who own a 1: 9.5" or tighter twist.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank this is a great thing. I'd be happy to donate a some 245 LeHighs. It seems very little data exist for these and I'd really like to see something other then the published BC.

 

[Donald]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I think alot of us have been waiting for a very long time to see any meaningful testing carn't wait to see the results.

 

[superde]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Sweet!

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight,
Thanks for setting this up. It sure will be interesting.

In what format are you going to deliver the results?
Are you going to give derived G7 or G1 B.C. numbers? Or are you going to publish the raw data for us to play with?

Thanks.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank, you guys are great!

This is outstanding news! Such a unique opportunity to measure bullet performance in transonic region!

I only hope that Berger would donate their 338 Hybrid 300gr, and Sierra - their 250gr and 300gr MatchKings.

And of course I'd love to know how those bullets (338LM) behave when stabilized by 1:10" twist, but you'll have only 1:9.5" barrel?

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Taggin this baby for future reference.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel/Lowlight:

VERY pleased to see this is finally happening!

Please advise re "interested party/spectator" opportunities. Is this a Sniper's Hide "exclusive" or are other media invited?

What about the following possible "participants"?:
Accurate Bullet Company
Barnes
Berger
Bore Tech
Cutting Edge
Dynamic Research
GS Custom
Hooker Tactical
Hornady
Lapua
Lehigh (company commitment already or 3rd party?)
Lutz Moeller/Prodigy
Rocky Mountain
Sierra (company sponsored or a simple 3rd party purchase?)
Woodleigh

I would have included Scorpion but their home page is still a place-holder and I have no info on a current or planned production offering. Certainly would be an opportunity for them as you note this is NOT an "accuracy" demo.

ALSO...what is the protocol for actually "integrating" a submitted projectile into the "program"? Can the supplier provide a rifle and/or shooter? If so, what are the "restrictions"? [IMHO, best to get these questions out on the table now - and decided - to help minimize the 20-20 hindsight gotchas.]

Hoping for a positive response to "other media" opportunities.

Best regards and God Bless!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

It needs to be manageable so we are limiting the shooters and rifles so nothing is "gamed" as we want things to work as simple as possible. If you need something extremely exotic to stabilize your projectile its not as desirable as something that works in "most rifles" or with a common twist rate.

As far as spectators are concerned I have no problem with it, that would be up to jeff as far as the range is concerned.

There are plenty of options out there to shoot, I have no issue shooting them, so if they want to send me a bunch of rounds to shoot we can do that. Right now it is open to what we have on hand. But the door is open.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight:

Thanks for the quick response!

You note submitting "rounds". Should potential submitters conclude "338 Lapua Magnum - SAAMI spec"? How many rounds?

I'm a bit confused on the "gaming" note and something "extremely exotic" - unless a typo, "1:54" gain twist" seems pretty well off the beaten path. Really hard to understand that latitude. Seems Sniper's Hide might consider providing the rifle and shooter AND then loading the ammo using supplied projectiles (SH-supplied and consistent brass, powder charge and primers). Since the "demo" is to compare projectiles, seems its "appropriate" to remove all other variables. But, given what has been stated to date, I'll continue.

Will "staff" other than those officially affiliated with/working for Sniper's Hide be shooting?

I'll PM you re contacting "Jeff".

I hate to be a PITA but "the door is open" does presumably mean just that. Some "simple" ground rules would be appreciated. Plus some detail info on the rifle(s) that will be used, e.g. if NOT 338 LM SAAMI.

You note that the rifle Mr. Carlson is using/providing is 338 LM <span style="color: #FF6666"><span style="font-weight: bold">Improved</span></span>, while the other is presumably 338 LM SAAMI. "Improved" means improved performance. Hot loads vs on-site chrono'd. Any "data" that does not include that info is immediately open to debate.

For those, like myself, that are looking for detail, what "detail" do you plan to provide online, "to the world", after the demo?

I'll leave it to the well-qualified gunsmiths in the room to address "rounds submitted" suggesting possible headspace issues. Will there be an opportunity to have a "trial fit" done prior to "final" submission? Some unhappy folks if the rounds "don't work" and they are DQ'd becuase their product was not trial fitted in sufficient time to resolve issues prior to the demo.

Finally - for now (sooo many things pop into the mind) - since Mr. Carlson is submitting a 338 LM Imp, and possibly the "matched" rifle, can others submit 338 AM, 338 Edge, 338 SnipeTac, 338 Xtreme?

Before you scream, recall that you opened the door.

Best regards and God Bless!

 

[Whit]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight, will you be posting the results afterwards? I am interested in what you find.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

It's two days, we have to manage the ranges which are considerable and manage the shooters.

I will be shooting too, along with 3 others, we figured 4 shooters, 2 teams of 2 so we can manage the rifles and ammo without heating up the rifles too much. One can shoot while the other cools off a bit.

As far as the detail, Sniper's Hide is moderating this, and I will be shooting, not determining who can play and who can't beyond the logistics aspect of it, so no we will not include every variation on a round imaginable. You see what they are bringing to the table, I will bring similar but we are limiting it to 1 gun per the 4 shooters, no more. We having limited resources so we are sticking to 338LM ( i have no idea what Noel means by "improved" )

I am keeping it simple, if you want to get heady with it, set one up yourself that opens the door for everything you can think off, .30 cal, 7mm, 408, 375, etc, this is not that.

338LM SAAMI is better, but with a single Gain Twist there if you fit in that mold go for it. My Current 338LM is 1-9.5 also, maybe I will see if AI can loan me one of theirs for this... but I right now I am also going to shoot some.

There is no other "affiliates" of SH as Sniper's Hide consists of "me" and nobody else, so what affiliates you are referring too I have no idea. I was asked to moderate this and shoot, so I have agreed. But logistics and ease rule the day, too many ingredients ruin the mix, so we are limiting the ingredients to the flavors we mentioned. So no Edge, Extreme, SniperTac etc.

if you want to submit rounds to me at least 10 I would say, more is better, you can contact me, i can reload them providing you give me a starting place.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight:

"338 LM Improved" is, presumably, a 40 degree shoulder with body slightly blown out laterally - see the reamer drawings on my site (Cartridges page). Imp adds case capacity.

"one gun per the 4 shooters, no more" sounds "right" but your lead post clearly described two (2) barrels, presumably at least two (2) rifles. If only one rifle, surely 338 LM. Do you mean one 338 LM per each of your four (4) SH shooters or one (1) rifle bewteen the 4 shooters? Is Nole or his stand-in included in the 4 shooters?

Lowlight - I have no idea how many affiliates/staff you have. [Seriously impressive site for one person.] Only trying to figure out what, if any, affiliations there might be otherwise - like if Brian Litz was to be one of the other three shooters, etc.

I'm also confused about the submission round count being as low as 10. Even if 5 rifles (SH x 4 plus Nole x 1), that's 50 rounds downrange - in two days? Again, sorry to be a PITA but I suspect if I am confused, others are also. Regretatably, I suspect confusion yields lack of participation by other possible suppliers.

Thanks for your patience and God Bless!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel and company is the one who is behind this, they contracted and are working with the Acoustic Chronograph guys, as well setting up the ranges, SH is MODERATING I am not sure how hard that is to understand. To my knowledge Noel is not Shooting as he did no impart to me he was.

The fact they are including a 338 Improve is their call, it's mostly their dime. I was told about 338LM which is what I am bringing. Nothing else, and as I said, it's a logistical thing. Less shooters, less rifles which means we can either add more bullet or less.

Personally I don't care if you feel this contradictory or cutting someone out, nor does it matter what you think. Yes you are being a PITA, for no good reason. We have a Range, we have Shooters and a we have a new Acoustic Chronograph to shoot over. So if you can fit your rounds within the 2 rifles listed above we will shoot your rounds over it. As far as round count, try getting the custom bullet makers to send you more than 10, how about 50 rounds and see how that works out for you. Maybe you have read their battle thread they put data out shooting 3 rounds so 10 is a windfall... besides how many rounds do we need. We aren't shooting them out of every rifle, even if we shoot them out of 2 rifles 10 still works... 20 is better, but that becomes pretty pricey and I am not paying for the ammo.

This is a simple event, we have shooters, rifles and a chronograph, if you want use to shoot them at distance over an Acoustic Chronograph with the data recorded and the event moderated, send me some rounds. If not I'm not gonna sweat it, it's a weekend in Vegas.

If they tell me 2 weeks from now we have a 338 Edge in the group, great more power too them... right now I was told we were doing 338LM, they added an improved great on them. But I am still only moderating 4 shooters. We only have 2 days, lots of movement, lots of set up, lots of down time, lots of cooling off to do. We can't shoot everyone but we can shoot a bunch.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

The point of utilizing two sequenced chronographs at range stepped out at 200 yard increments, and one chronograph at the firing point, is to eliminate the "gaming" potential of the projectile BC. Regardless of MV, velocity decay can be isolated. The raw data will be made public.

It should be noted notwithstanding the foregoing, that a banded projectile will always have a 150-200 fps MV advantage over a jacketed projectile, or a solid with a large engraving surface... if mass is held constant. There is nothing that can be done to handicap for that, nor should anyone desire to.

We are not testing internal ballistics, but perhaps subsequent tests open to public review can address that aspect when the field has been thinned down to the genuinely competitive projectiles.

Accurracy is also an item to be analyzed, but once again an ELR projectile that falls to the ground before reaching the target is useless. By ferreting out noncontenders is the initial test for BC, and subsonic transition, later comparative testing is greatly simplified.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

PS,

Frank is correct that I will not be one of the four shooters.

 

[CoryT]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

If I can assist in the process in any way, I can fly up there with any of my gear.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thanks Cory,

Might have to take you up on that so we can shoot the Ashbury some more.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Cory,

That would be great, I would like to meet you.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's two days, we have to manage the ranges which are considerable and manage the shooters.

My Current 338LM is 1-9.5 also, maybe I will see if AI can loan me one of theirs for this... but I right now I am also going to shoot some. </div></div>
I really hope you can get a 1:10 barrel for 338LM!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I have some LeHighs from Longshot coming as well Berger has contacted me. So people / companies are stepping up to send samples for us.

Mouse, if AI has a 1/10 I will get it.

 

[CoryT]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank, I've got that Savage test gun, it's 1/10.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

That is right you do, that high speed low drag Savage Elite... I guess that is the engraved invitation to the party... LOL

 

[memilanuk]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Hello Frank,

Looking forward to whatever results you're able to publish!

Any tidbits of info on this new acoustic chronograph? Is it something currently on the market, or coming soon? Do I even want to know what it costs?

Thanks,

Monte

 

[Jim the Plumber]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank, I'll be happy to send you these to help in your test.
PM me an address and I'll get them out to you.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Groper, LM, Extremist458, and Bryan Litz:

Please provide your thoughts on the planned demo session - testing methodology, equipment (testing and shooting), value of the expected (type of) data, and anything else you think would help those less informed and knowledgeable better understand what has been stated in this thread by Noel and Lowlight.

Also, is your company going to be an official participant/submitter (i.e., participate directly and/or submit projectiles or loaded ammo directly)?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

In principle, this really is pretty basic stuff. What is it that you are having trouble understanding?

As for GSC, LM, and Nick Collier; don't you already have direct knowledge of all three declining to participate in the demonstration that you were attempting to organize earlier this year? You know, the one in which Bryan was going to use a similiar chronograph system for BC determination?

There has been enough interveining time for them to work the problems out of the designs. Perhaps their answer will surprise you this time around. You may have noticed that Berger has already contacted Frank to supply 300 grain Hybrids.

Your anxiety has me a little bewildered.

 

[groper]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I can't believe I'm even going to bother posting in this thread as we've heard this all before - numberous times in fact.

I've already stated the problems with my projectiles - the accuracy is poor and I'm not ashamed to admit it. This makes it an unviable bullet design and will not be produced for sale -because I'm not a stupid businessman. I also fail to see the point in trying to sell typical bullets- as they already exist and I have no desire to compete there.

Noel, If you feel the need to run some public pissing match rather than simply showing us what they can do and then producing some rifles and bullets and simply start selling them - it's finally dawned on me that you must be some kind of recluse with a serious ( and probably ) undiagnosed mental condition! You never do any shooting of your own, and noone knows you other than some random online personality? If anyone still takes any of this seriously, then god help you... This is never going to happen...

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Given that ELR seems like a complete pain in the ass, pissing him off almost seems like a bonus and I will say I have to admire Groper's blunt honesty and there is obviously a lot of underlying story behind his comments. I am not going to get in the middle of whatever that is about.

That said,I would be very interested to come out and observe and lend a hand if that is acceptable to Lowlight, Noel and the other event coordinators.


I also have a Savage 110 with a 1:9 barrel I might be able to get set up by the date if another test bed rifle has any value. I will have components and dies and may be able to assemble some 250gr SMK's if anyone thinks the additional data has any value.

I live in LV so I am local and would like to meet some of these players as I have corresponded with Noel and Lowlight has been gracious enough to respond to a post, all of which I appreciate.

Let me know if another spectator/gopher is welcome. Thanks.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

.375M, you can come, you don't need to bring a rifle.

Grouper, it's happening, Noel is one small segment of this, and your problem along with the others is why SH is moderating. We have the range, the equipment and the shooters, the time is easy. Between this site, people like CoryT from Gunsite being there I don't see the issue, other than the usual with you lot.

Limiting the scope is a good thing in my opinion.

Ps, yes Berger has already contacted me as well as others. For those not wanting Noel to see your stuff, I am more than far enough away from him, send your samples to me. I have no interest in sharing with him beyond the shot. Again, the battles in the past lead to our participating moving forward.

Again, if ELR wants to throw a bunch of garbage into the mix that is fine, but I would recommend against it. We are keeping it simple. It's a first step and frankly much more than any of you guys have done. I suggest sticking to what you know, which by my observation is fighting on the Internet with each other.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Groper,

As I recall, your projectile was going to be available last April for public sale. Now that is a business calculation which probably could have been better planned, but you did announce it.

Even your "failure" was presented as sub-MOA, with a "fantastic" BC... (with more to come).

Now, a "pissing contest" did in fact take place regarding the "inventon" you were going to reveal to the world that would be all things to all people, ie., high BC from a standard twist in a monometal projectile. You were wrong.

There will be no pissing contest in the context of this thread. Stand up and deliver, or excuse yourself politely.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel:

Lowlight's original post notes your projectile being fired from a 338 LM Improved cartridge and a 1:54" gain twist barrel. Please confirm those specs - and advise if the "Improved" is the typical Ackley Improved 40 degree.

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thanks Lowlight

Please PM me with a location as I assume it is not at Desert Sportsmans Club range.

Look forward to it.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

As you may have guessed, the twist-rate is a typo.

The rifle set aside for 6.5+ caliber length projectiles has a 1: 5.4" exit rate. It is the platform that will also fire the LM-105, wiith Robert Brewington's blessing, per a telephone conversation that we had some time ago. Apparently, the realization that a 1: 7" was insufficient has found broader consensus. Only Gerard Schultz remains convinced otherwise, but we will make this rifle available to him nonetheless.

Regarding chambering, I will have to defer to the owner for specifics.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thank goodness there'll finally be some independent moderation of this. Watching these clowns climb all over each other on the internet has been an experience in observing breathtaking stupidity. Building credibility with a potential customer base...way to go.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I am "jeff". I will address some of the things brought up in the thread so far. In no particular order: The two rifles mentioned in the initial post (338 LM 1:9.5” twist; and 338LM Improved 1:5.4” twist) are my personal rifles. I believe Frank is going to bring or arrange for at least one additional 338LM rifle to be used for the test. That is good as rotating rifles will reduce the abuse to each rifle. This is a bullet test, not a rifle test. Accordingly, we are not looking to test a bunch of 338 cartridges, like 338/408, 338 Snipetac, 338 Edge, or anything else. As Frank said, we are limiting the rifles to 338LM (except for the 1:5.4” rifle). Maximum distance is not the goal; bullet performance is what we are testing.

That my gain-twist is a 338LM Improved is a coincidence; the rifle was built nearly 2 years ago for long range in the desert, and the 338 LM Improved gives me more velocity. Simply said, the only ammo that goes through it is hand loaded by me. The reamer is custom and currently sitting in my garage. It is tight neck, and based upon the dimensions of my particular lot of Lapua brass. The 1:5.4” gain twist is designed for 6.5-7.0 caliber long high BC solids. As far as I know, there are only 2 of these super fast twist 338 barrels in the USA. They are both in my possession. If we get LM105s or other high BC bullets to test, they will be fired from this rifle. Assuming they are willing, either Frank or Cory will be the people actually shooting the rifle with the high BC solids, like the LM105s AND the ZA 276s and 300s.

If someone wants a specific high BC solid bullet tested, like the Moeller LM105 or something from GS Custom, they need to get <span style="font-weight: bold">roughly 25 </span>of them to ME in time to do basic safety/pressure testing (2-5 rounds) before the testing date. Time is somewhat limited, so I do not think we will have many bullets being tested from my gain-twist. Standard twist bullets can be sent to either Frank or me, as can pre-loaded factory ammo, like SouthWest Ammo and the Predator 235s.

Frank is moderating and shooting. Because of a recent change in schedule by one of the chronograph developers, I am probably not shooting. I will be running one of the two chronographs. If Cory is willing to come I would gladly have him join us on the firing line or help gather data, his choice. Given that my chronograph developer and I will be down-range during this shooting, the number of possible shooters is going to be limited.

Our location in the desert has no facilities of ANY KIND. I do not have any problem with folks who want to help with the test. If you fall into this category, then contact me or Frank directly and ask about how you might do that. At this point I do not think we need anyone else for the data gathering team, but that can change at any given time so having alternates is a good thing.

No offense intended, but I am not in favor of folks who want to come to watch. This location is NOT conclusive to a lot of folks gathering at the firing points. We will start early in the morning - set up while still dark kind of early. This test will be less exciting than going to the range to watch someone do load development, because you don’t get to see any groups. Think one shot every 60-90 seconds for 1 to 2 hours, then move to a different firing point and shoot every 60-90 seconds for and additional 1 to 2 hours

The integrity of the data is a critical aspect of doing this. We presently plan to publish virtually all of the atmospheric and velocity data that we gather for each shot on each bullet. In any event, we will publish the data gathered at the firing point. We plan to make a pfd of the tables and put them up on the site or Frank can do so. The Chronograph is proprietary gear. As such, the chronograph guys are likely not going to publish their raw data. I suspect a lot of what they gather would be gibberish for 99.9% of us anyway. I think we are planning on publishing the average velocities generated from trap 1 and from trap 2 as to each shot for each bullet tested. That information will be combined with the firing point information and result in the published table. I talked to the chronograph developer, and he is going to do the data post-processing after the test that night, so that we can get out of the desert before dark. If something goes wrong on Saturday and we do not shoot, we have some time on Sunday morning to potentially re-do the test. Since the chronograph developer is on a plane Sunday mid afternoon so he can be back at work Monday morning, my fingers are crossed that we get this in on Saturday.

Way too long but I hope it answered some of the questions.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Jeff:

Thanks for the very comprehensive and clearly stated info. Much appreciated.

While I suspect you have it in the plan...photos. I for one would appreciate some hi-res of the projectiles PRE-loading - side-by-side would be great. Plus, of course, pics of the range, chronos, and proud (tired) testers and "staff".

Also, hopefully Noel and others will share their projectiles' stats - in the form used by Bryan Litz in his book, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting', 2nd edition, or that data in any format they desire. Yes, I know that is up to them, just trying to get it into one post.

Beyond the stats, will someone be providing a projectile-by-projectile decode of the resulting test data? ["Decode" being in layman's English, please.]

Finally, thank you very much for taking the time and incurring the cost of making this happen.

 

[steve123]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I sure hope the wind is down and the weather is cooperative for you guys. There are many ELR buffs that will benefit immensely from the evidence provided from the outcomes of this test!

Thanks Jeff,LL and all involved.

From what I've read in the past on these 6.5-7 caliber solids it seems to be a trend that these projectiles work well only within a certain velocity window??? I imagine it's quite a juggling act with rifling twist rate and projectile shape to get them working perfectly and reliably all the time in every reasonable DA condition and transition into/past subsonic well. Hopefully a few of the new designs will work.

Jeff,

Are both of your gain twist barrels the same twist or do they differ ?

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ELR Research - Yes we plan on taking pictures of the various pieces of gear and of the process as it is happening.

Your request for hi res pictures of the ZA projectiles (specifically the engraving band(s) and boat tail which will be hidden when looking at a loaded round). I do not own the rights to the intellectual property represented in the projectile design. Noel has those rights. So I will simply say there is no chance at all, unless Noel says I should. Same answer for detailed design drawings that would give someone an immediate ability to clone them.

Steve - the barrels are the same. But my answer is not so simple. The barrel has a continuous but constant gain, making it very predictable. It starts at 1:12.0" at the breech and then exits at 1:5.4" 32" later. They key to picking your desired exit twist is knowing the gain and the progression. If you wanted it to exit at say 6.4" you could simply trim back from the crown to the appropriate spot. If you wanted to exit at a 5.4" but only wanted it 30" long, you would trim from the breech. Its a frigg'n tree trunk (it is 1.250" for 6" then continuous taper to 1" at 32.") I specifically made it huge so that I could set it back at least once and be 30" after I did. I hope that made sense. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

JeffVN

 

[trigger29]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ELR Research - Yes we plan on taking pictures of the various pieces of gear and of the process as it is happening.

Your request for hi res pictures of the ZA projectiles (specifically the engraving band(s) and boat tail which will be hidden when looking at a loaded round). I do not own the rights to the intellectual property represented in the projectile design. Noel has those rights. So I will simply say there is no chance at all, unless Noel says I should. Same answer for detailed design drawings that would give someone an immediate ability to clone them.


JeffVN </div></div>And if you are recieving everyone else's bullets prior to testing, what is to keep you from immediately cloning them?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ELR,

The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012. All of them will work from standard rifling. Until then, no photos will be published.

As a side note; Jeff is one of a handful of people that will receive a continuous supply of 6.5-7.0 projectiles in standard calibers. These rifles were created for proof of concept only, and will never see regular production. ZA was always envisioned as a system, and the barrels/shells operate at pressures/spin-rates that necessitate dimensioning which will prevent anyone from attempting to fire conventional projectiles from a ZA dedicated rifle. Doing so could cause serious injury, and would almost certainly destroy the rifle.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Trigger,

The other projectiles that would work from the 5.4" have been publicly available for years, and are therefore public domain... unless protected by patents, and/or limited in exposure due to marketing considerations.

In short, it is a moot issue.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger29</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if you are recieving everyone else's bullets prior to testing, what is to keep you from immediately cloning them?</div></div>

Seriously, you guys need to give the paranoia a rest.

Last time I checked Jeff wasn't in the bullet making business, and if that wasn't good enough I am certainly not in that business so they can send them to me because I certainly have no interest in sharing details. Besides if the bullets are truly working and available what prevents anyone on the planet from buying some and cloning them?

At some point in the process you have to put a little faith in people or you all can continue to sit on the Internet arguing with each other while spreading lies and modeling vapor ware on your computers in your basements going nowhere.

 

[steve123]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Steve - the barrels are the same. But my answer is not so simple. The barrel has a continuous but constant gain, making it very predictable. It starts at 1:12.0" at the breech and then exits at 1:5.4" 32" later. They key to picking your desired exit twist is knowing the gain and the progression. If you wanted it to exit at say 6.4" you could simply trim back from the crown to the appropriate spot. If you wanted to exit at a 5.4" but only wanted it 30" long, you would trim from the breech. Its a frigg'n tree trunk (it is 1.250" for 6" then continuous taper to 1" at 32.") I specifically made it huge so that I could set it back at least once and be 30" after I did. I hope that made sense. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

JeffVN </div></div>

Oh OK,that aspect hadn't occurred to me. Nifty idea!

Is LL bringing the Spin D to test? I think it comes by the case now.

?

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am "jeff".
The integrity of the data is a critical aspect of doing this. We presently plan to publish virtually all of the atmospheric and velocity data that we gather for each shot on each bullet. In any event, we will publish the data gathered at the firing point. We plan to make a pfd of the tables and put them up on the site or Frank can do so. The Chronograph is proprietary gear. As such, the chronograph guys are likely not going to publish their raw data. I suspect a lot of what they gather would be gibberish for 99.9% of us anyway. I think we are planning on publishing the average velocities generated from trap 1 and from trap 2 as to each shot for each bullet tested. That information will be combined with the firing point information and result in the published table. </div></div>

Hi Jeff,
Sounds good with regards to the PDF of your results.
Would it be possible to include "Time of flight" information between each of the paired measuring points?

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

wadcutter - "time of flight" included on the table for trap 1 and trap 2 on each shot. I do not know. I know its included in the algorithm to be able to generate BC, but I'm not positive where or how its put into the equation. I think I'll have to defer to the chronograph developers on that one. I talked briefly to the developer yesterday, but didn't ask this specific question. Next call I'll ask and then come back and update that response.

JeffVN

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ELR,

The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012. All of them will work from standard rifling. Until then, no photos will be published.

As a side note; Jeff is one of a handful of people that will receive a continuous supply of 6.5-7.0 projectiles in standard calibers. These rifles were created for proof of concept only, and will never see regular production. ZA was always envisioned as a system, and the barrels/shells operate at pressures/spin-rates that necessitate dimensioning which will prevent anyone from attempting to fire conventional projectiles from a ZA dedicated rifle. Doing so could cause serious injury, and would almost certainly destroy the rifle. </div></div>

Noel:

Your statements here, in context with what LL and Jeff have stated, confuse me.

You say that the "public release" of projectiles which "will work from standard rifling" will be at SHOT in Jan. You note the need for a "system" of barrel and "shells". You note that using your "shells" in a NON-ZA-dedicated rifle "could cause serious injury, and would almost certainly destroy the rifle." WOW!!!

Then, Noel, what ZA "products" are going to be shot at LV - for comparison to presumably "mostly" available-to-the-general-public projectiles? (1) Projectiles that will only work in one of Jeff's 5.4 twist barrels OR, (2) projectiles that will only work in a "dedicated" rifle and shell "system" OR, (3) hopefully, what will be released at SHOT and will be able to work from "standard rifling"?

If NOT #3, why should "we" be interested in a COMPARISON to available products UNLESS you are also going to be offering, TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, such a "dedicated" "rifle/shell" "system"?

Is this an experiment for the sake of "knowledge", and experiment in advance of a future "product" to be available to the general public, a marketing pitch to the "government", or something else? Please clarify.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ELR,

Since is this of no issue to you, and you appear to not be able to read English very well, I suggest you walk away from this this...

Noel, "clearly said"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012. <span style="font-weight: bold">All of them will work from standard rifling.</span> Until then, no photos will be published.</div></div>

He also said, to clarify the "system" comment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">These rifles were created for proof of concept only, and will never see regular production.</span> ZA was always envisioned as a system, and the barrels/shells operate at pressures/spin-rates that necessitate dimensioning which will prevent anyone from attempting to fire conventional projectiles from a ZA dedicated rifle.</div></div>

So he seems to answer this pretty clearly...

I get it, this is a hot topic for you, and you hate the whole idea of it, thus your need to stir the pot and cause a scene where none need be. We have one rifle coming which was explained that is non-conventional, 1 rifle, and nobody said anything about focusing on that one rifle.

Now I can warn you a 3rd time about stirring the pot with your continued nonsense or I can simply remove your nonsense from the thread. You have nothing constructive to add, you have no dog in this, <span style="font-style: italic">(or do you)</span> so knock it off. You know the answers, to a lot of this, and you have talked to people already, the same ones you asked to respond, so you already know their feelings.

Trying to de-legitimize this won't work, especially on here, every body interested in this topic has had enough of the infighting which is why others like SH got involved. We, as well as many others want to see this happen, regardless of your personal feelings on the subject. Go back to your own website and spout off, cause you're not gonna derail this here.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

LL:

The first quote notes about the product that will be shown at SHOT. I'm asking whether that is what will be shot at the demo. That is not clear - at least to me.

The second quote talks about some "rifles". It is entirely unclear - to me anyway - whether any of those will be used to fire ZA projectiles at the demo.

Noel, please address these two points.

Thank you.

LL - I am NOT doing anything, IMHO, to derail anything. I have NO dog in this demo and have no agenda other than trying to understand what will be done at the demo. I suspect you know many of the answers because you are on the team. I have NOT asked and receievd answers prior, offline, or otherwise. Last time I e-mailed Noel about his plans for "November" (prior SH post) he did not return my e-mail. I am not (do not want to be) on the team and do NOT know the answers to the questions I'm asking. I am asking questions because that is my self-appointed job. Why the beef? I don't know you, you clearly don't know me, Sincerely sorry to have irritated you. TOTALLY NOT my intent. Sorry, sorry, sorry! OK?