338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard,

Your time to supply a viable 6+ caliber 338 is virtually expired.

I am having a difficult time discerning the purpose of your continued participation in this thread, and while I do appreciate the unpredictability of the development process (ask Berger about the 300 grainer), you are the only manufacturer (of any sort) that to my knowledge sold a useless product for nine years, and blamed the customer, or his equipment.

Speaking of plans... whatever happened to the USA production that GSC was going to set-up effective the first part of this passing year?

Scratch that. Stay on topic Gerard.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight or Jeff,

From taking a mv reading when supersonic and a mv reading when subsonic is the data obtained going to be used to make a report or conclusion of a bullets destabilisation in flight?

Or will there be reported just a very low BC with the "reader" of the information left to make his own mind up as to what has happened ?

Will there be any expert "help" in the way of "conclusions" to the data is what I am getting at ?

 

[mouse07410]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I for one hope that the report for each projectile would:

1. Produce a set of BC's at multiple velocities going from Mach 2.5 (or higher? depends on the projectile) all the way down to Mach 0.7 or 0.5, as a single or averaged BC IMHO would <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> provide enough information.
2. Include statistical distribution of BC for each registered velocity (or band), so a reader can evaluate how stable the bullet behavior is in that velocity band.
3. Include the accuracy of that projectile, which is another measure of its stability.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

They said at the outset that they won't be reporting on accuracy as many of the loads won't be tuned to the rifles being used.

I also don't see how multiple BC's can be done as the chrono at the firing point is not mean't to be part of the "data" used for the BC results. So what you have to work with is the two velocity figures at a given distance apart. The deterioration of the velocity in the bullet over that distance being the main "data" for working out the B.C. as I understand it ... so that would give only one figure if I am right ...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Peter,

You are perfectly correct... with one addition:

The 200 yard move in firing point will provide a secondary *average* velocity band. If there was enough time to reduce the interval, and increase the number of firing points, resolution of the ballistic profile could become as detailed as desired. This demonstration will provide a relatively coarse comparison in accord with a diverse BC range of sampled projectiles.

Further testing/reporting will take place prior to SHOT to address flight characteristics of projectiles which make this initial cut.

 

[X-fan]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight,

Forgive me for skimming the last few pages.

Obviously time being an issue on range day, but I am wondering if you are interested in testing 338 bullets as provided by members (or provided by you after paypal/EMT donation)?
If the manufactures aren't leaping on board we could provide what you need.
I certainly wouldn't mind mind contributing to the cause.


As a new member here I wanted to comment on what a great job you are doing on these forums. Informative discussions without too much chest beating (ignoring the earlier pages)...What else could a guy want?

Not to mention the low troll count per capita here.

Great job.
Your efforts are appreciated!

Peace

 

[PeterPHWS]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

The thing many of us would be interested to know from a test like this is whether the bullets in question remain stable after going through the transonic period into subsonic velocities.

If a bullet has these benefits it is potentially going to remain "accurate" for the distance travelled after losing it's supersonic velocity.

However,what I don't know and I suspect many don't know is just how much slower a bullet that destabilises and effectively "keyholes" on a target at a subsonic range is going to be compared to a bullet which is still travelling in a "tip first" stabilised fashion.

So if no "accuracy" is to be commented upon ... could you still have bullets potentially showing a respectible BC which infact were passing over the second chrono in a tumbling fashion ?

In other words ... does anyone have the skill to know if by way of loss of velocity over the distance to be measured that the bullet in question is actually "yawing" in flight or is still flying "true" ...

Otherwise is'nt there a risk that a bullet may be given a half decent potential BC for long range performance but actually be pretty poor accuracy wise as it is "yawing" or even "tumbling" at subsonic distances ?

Hence my question as to whether there may be some "expert" interpretation of the results ?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

There will be some informal accuracy testing, as we are going to be shooting at a target. From the Shooter's Perspective we will be looking at the results downrange, but the actual "test" will be looking at the numbers based on the chronograph readings.

We are all set to move forward, we have a lot of bullets to test, enough to fill the weekend with, as well Jeff, myself, and Chronograph guys are meeting early on Friday, so things are coming together nicely. For the time allotted we have about all we can handle given the time constraints. It looks like 8 different bullets to test.

Between Cory and Myself, as well as Jeff & Co, there are enough experienced eyes to see what happens downrange, we can tell predictable versus unpredictable for sure, if we get solid breaks on the trigger and the round end up out of the ball park that is easy to spot. But accuracy as a primary focus requires more set up and preparation than we are doing this weekend. I know both our rifles are accurate, so there is no issue there. Heck I did Cory's ELR Class less than 60 days ago, so the systems have been shot out 2100 yards recently.

Accurate load development requires a lot more time, we'd have to work up the loads in stages beyond what we have, although 3/4 of the loads are pretty well established. My thoughts personally this department is, because Noel's bullets are new, i have no clue what they have done accuracy wise to develop a load for his stuff... but we have accurate loads for most of the others.

I think what they are doing is moving in stages, I believe they are looking at an accuracy test around SHOT Show, right now I believe the biggest test is with the chronograph. It is a new system, so if we can establish a solid set of numbers knowing the microphone system works, the accuracy part will fall into place. Also because there is more than one point of measurement you'll see a transition if it hits sub-sonic well in front of the target range, you'll know there is an issue to explore.

We are moving the ball forward, we are moving beyond the in-fighting you can see happening between the various makers. We are taking a positive step in the right direction as far as my opinion goes. if we need to revisit this again come Spring I'm happy too do... in my mind we are not looking to run anyone down put flush out the chronograph so we can better understand the downrange results at greater distances. Which is going to help all involved, whether than like who is participating or not.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Peter,

The reason the two firing points were set at the stated ranges is to sample a few commercially available projectiles that will be crossing transonic velocities.

Tracking velocity degradation of "tumblers" would require a better resolution than 200 yards, but the instant a bullet is completely subsonic in terms of airflow over its entire surface this system will no longer register the passing with the clarity that a supersonic signature would provide. Your question becomes interesting as more sensitive hardware (microphones) are utilized. Possibly the current configuration could pick that up. The developers will undoubtedly comment upon that aspect of the system when they enter the discussion.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thanks for the response LL and what you are doing is all good ... I look forward to reading what you come up with ...
this type of testing may be a new way forward for a number of bullets/calibres ...

 

[hypertex]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Will the raw data be available? I'm real interested as solids seem to be the only type of bullet that'll survive the ole' 338 snipetac.

 

[Augustus]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

SMKs do very well in the 338 Snipe-tac

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Based on recent weather we are being pushed to a secondary range area for the demonstration. I have little confidence that the soft sand in the primary area will be negotiable in anything other than a well-equipped 4-wheel drive (which I do not have). As a result, several changes in process and procedure are being imposed upon us.

1) The back up location does not have any backdrop, meaning bullet impact is going to be invisible from the firing point except in a rare circumstance. For teh folks who have shot in the desert you know why. For those of you that have not, its mostly flat and the scrub and cacti between your firing point and the impact point tends to obscure seeing what happens at the impact point. That means there is no ability to ascertain subsonic stability or bullet impact near a target.

2) Most important, we now will be walking the gear out to the various microphone locations forward of the firing point. Since we are required to walk everything out to the locations, the ability to drop my armor plate for a secure viewing point is not going to happen. As a result, I am personally calling a safety-based halt to any intentional subsonic testing. That means if a bullet is close to subsonic transition from teh first firing point, it is not going to be tested from the longer firing point. Putting it bluntly, I will be standing downrange near the second microphone trap and have no intention of letting an unstable projectile come flying in my direction.

I'm not going to engage in a technical discussion of the type of data that we will be gathering, I've covered what I can earlier in the thread.

Noel's comments about SHOT testing with the chronograph are wrong. The chronograph is not an automated drop it in the desert and it runs itself device (at least at this point - it should be in the near future but its not so far). If it were, I would not need to stand in the desert.

I have more to add, but it will have to wait until I get off
work.

A brief explanation on why we are walking out to the target point and chronograph points. The land is federally owned, and "managed" by the BLM. Its fine for shooting, and I was introduced to the site by local law enforcement. But, since its designated a wildlife preservation area you cannot drive off road for any reason in this area. The specific area that we are doing the test sits between I-15 to our southeast, and a county road to our northwest. Our line of flight is roughly parallel to both I-15 and the county road. There are no established roads through this particular piece of desert. There is a ridge backdrop roughly 5,000 yards from the first firing point. There is nothing but desert in between the firing point and the ridge.

Jeffvn

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

"Noel's statements about SHOT testing with the chronograph are wrong..."...

In conversation with Jeff it was clarified that the "stand alone" function of the chronographs is necessary if we are to do testing in adverse weather conditions as explained above. Barring those conditions, use of a manned chronograph will not be a safety issue during SHOT testing.

This does assume that the system proves itself this weekend. It goes without saying that nobody will carry out a test that exposes participants to stray bullets.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I am loaded up and ready to roll...

Loaded the Leigh and the GS Customs, I was at Mile High Shooting today and picked up a box of Hornady 285grs because they were there. All that is left is to get my box of Predators from SW Ammo and I am off to the races this weekend.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I am ready, and anxiously looking forward to our extended weekend.

Only the ZA338/6.5-M (278 grain), a design first generated 3/16/09, will be included in this round of testing. Due to problems with a non-homogenous bar stock delivery we lacked sufficient time to test for stability of the most current designs at the anticipated air densities. The safety concerns elaborated by Jeff will delay publication of BC data on the ZA338/6.5-M (282 grain), ZA338/6.5-W (310 grain), and the ZA338/6.0-WH (300 grain hunt) projectiles until our next Las Vegas chronograph session.

If they all prove out there, we will next organize an early morning round of testing in the dry desert air of Death Valley, California, in the middle of winter.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight,

My 338 is still in the process of being built, so I would like to attend the spring session. I was gone for quite some time, as I usually am, so I appologize for not responding earlier.

May I ask what bullets those are of ours you have loaded? If the 295's, they might not work in your listed rifles. Yes, they were designed for slower cartrides then the 338 AI, like the 338 Norma and standard 338LM, where velocities stay 2950 or less. They, like the 309, work in a 8 twist or faster, so the standard rifle you have is also a bit slow on the twist.

The change to the 309 was done for the modern, high-speed cartridges, so speed is no longer an issue. For those customers who have been using the 295 for years, they can still be had. And for a standard rifle, the 267 and 232 are suited best.

As for the exceptionally fast twist of 5.4 exit, that will likely not work for anyones bullet but the one it was designed for. We do know the 295 didn't work in it when shot at high speeds, and we predicted this from the beginning. We like to keep our bullets designed for barrels that will still allow other bullets to be shot, and even jacketed bullets can be shot out of an 8 twist standard 338 LM/NM without issue, so that where the designs started. We do however have a bullet we are working on for even greater performance, but we are not releasing it until it is done and tested. It is around 322-324 grains and works best in a 7.5 twist...I bring this up because this is what my rifle will be done in, and it will be comming to your testing this spring.

As for the delay in the making of GSC bullets here, I appologize, but the invester we had came down with cancer, and the banks have delayed us for over 6 months now. Sorry, but I just don't have the capital to do it myself, or I would have already. I'm sure some of you can relate. It will be soon, and we will do our best to make it happen sooner rather then later.

We will be at SHOT, and I hope to see you all there. Keep well, and God bless.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Here I edited his distasteful post...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight,

My 338 is still in the process of being built, so I would like to attend the spring session. I was gone for quite some time, as I usually am, so I appologize for not responding earlier.

May I ask what bullets those are of ours you have loaded? If the 295's, they might not work in your listed rifles. Yes, they were designed for slower cartrides then the 338 AI, like the 338 Norma and standard 338LM, where velocities stay 2950 or less. They, like the 309, work in a 8 twist or faster, so the standard rifle you have is also a bit slow on the twist.

The change to the 309 was done for the modern, high-speed cartridges, so speed is no longer an issue. For those customers who have been using the 295 for years, they can still be had. And for a standard rifle, the 267 and 232 are suited best.

As for the exceptionally fast twist of 5.4 exit, that will likely not work for anyones bullet but the one it was designed for. We do know the 295 didn't work in it when shot at high speeds, and we predicted this from the beginning. We like to keep our bullets designed for barrels that will still allow other bullets to be shot, and even jacketed bullets can be shot out of an 8 twist standard 338 LM/NM without issue, so that where the designs started. We do however have a bullet we are working on for even greater performance, but we are not releasing it until it is done and tested. It is around 322-324 grains and works best in a 7.5 twist...I bring this up because this is what my rifle will be done in, and it will be comming to your testing this spring.

As for the delay in the making of GSC bullets here, I appologize, but the invester we had came down with cancer, and the banks have delayed us for over 6 months now. Sorry, but I just don't have the capital to do it myself, or I would have already. I'm sure some of you can relate. It will be soon, and we will do our best to make it happen sooner rather then later.

We will be at SHOT, and I hope to see you all there. Keep well, and God bless.</div></div>

Anthony,

Those are the 232s and think they will do just fine.

I was pretty much told flat out by Gerald no thanks, and even the invitation to supply a rifle w/ shooter was not responded too, at least not to me. I have no problem extending that invitation but from what I was told you all didn't want to be a part of this... whether that was because of the test, Noel's participation, ours, it was not specified but I did contact you all.

I said from the beginning we were going to do this, I know others tried and it didn't come off, I can understand that, but I am not other people. I have no interest in not making this as fair for everyone as possible, I am here, so it needs to be. Instead guys tried to stir the pot, dismiss this, etc, etc, but again, here we are doing it and if that means we pay for the bullets we use and produce the data that way, well then, my CC# is... it's definitely better when you all support the effort rather than attack it, but again, I offered and even gave every assurance I possibly could. The declines were received and well understood.

If you want to revisit this with us at a later date I am happy to do it again. I am keeping my door and my mind open that we can help move the ball in area down the field.

I will be wandering around at SHOT, drop me a PM and let me know where you will be and I will be happy to talk to you.

Regards,

<span style="font-style: italic">ps, you guys need to stop focusing on the one gain twist, we have other rifles we are bringing that have nothing to do with the gain twist barreled rifle. We have standard rifles being used. </span>

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"... we predicted it from the beginning..."...

Go back and read your posts to Jeff. </div></div>

It is comments like these that keep Beyond 1000 Yard section <span style="text-decoration: line-through">petty and redundant</span> uh, interesting.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

At this point you can PM Noel with your questions and not distract from this thread any more...

We offered, you declined... enough said, take it to Private Messages if you want to question him this way.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel can run off at the mouth, sprouting nonsense and slander without you intervening. When I point out his contradicting remarks on this thread alone, you delete my post.

Do you wonder why I declined your offer?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noel can run off at the mouth, sprouting nonsense and slander without you intervening. When I point out his contradicting remarks on this thread alone, you delete my post.

Do you wonder why I declined your offer?</div></div>

And yet here we are with your bullets regardless...

If you want to attack Noel, start your own thread, this was the chance to stop the nonsense by setting it straight, where the numbers would talk and the bullshit would be filtered out.

I let your battles go unchecked long enough without you crapping on THIS Thread any more. I gave you a chance, you declined, so you're done in my opinion, and personally I don't care about you, Noel, ELR Researcher, or your petty he said, she said bullshit, I want to move things in a positive direction.

If Noel can't produce a bullet that works, or is on time, well that is easy enough to see, and is here for everybody to read without you coming on here, because so far you are no different, and when I see Noel this weekend I will tell him the same thing, if you don't think I won't tell him to shut the fuck up you are sorely mistaken.

You're in my house you want to shit on Noel start your own thread or go some where else, but in my opinion all of the back and forth for years now has produced next to nothing of value... at some point you'll either learn to give it up and let the market speak, which means bullets that work you can buy, or not. Its pretty simple.

I gave you "MY" assurances, nobody else's you declined, so now in my opinion as far as this thread goes, you lost the right to bitch and complain. One day you'll figure out I am not on anybody's side here but the end user, which neither you or Noel appear to understand.

 

[treebasher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noel can run off at the mouth, sprouting nonsense and slander without you intervening. When I point out his contradicting remarks on this thread alone, you delete my post.

Do you wonder why I declined your offer?</div></div>

And yet here we are with your bullets regardless...

If you want to attack Noel, start your own thread, this was the chance to stop the nonsense by setting it straight, where the numbers would talk and the bullshit would be filtered out.

I let your battles go unchecked long enough without you crapping on THIS Thread any more. I gave you a chance, you declined, so you're done in my opinion, and personally I don't care about you, Noel, ELR Researcher, or your petty he said, she said bullshit, I want to move things in a positive direction.

If Noel can't produce a bullet that works, or is on time, well that is easy enough to see, and is here for everybody to read without you coming on here, because so far you are no different, and when I see Noel this weekend I will tell him the same thing, if you don't think I won't tell him to shut the fuck up you are sorely mistaken.

You're in my house you want to shit on Noel start your own thread or go some where else, but in my opinion all of the back and forth for years now has produced next to nothing of value... at some point you'll either learn to give it up and let the market speak, which means bullets that work you can buy, or not. Its pretty simple.

I gave you "MY" assurances, nobody else's you declined, so now in my opinion as far as this thread goes, you lost the right to bitch and complain. One day you'll figure out I am not on anybody's side here but the end user, which neither you or Noel appear to understand. </div></div>

LowLight, thank you!

The prom night bullshit between these bullet "manufacturers" is getting old...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

GS,

You need to open your eyes, so does Noel, and anyone else reading this which clearly they are... about 45 days on here with more than 5700 views. People are interested in this, look in this section where the discussions on the 338 Norma, 300 Norma etc are and see how many people are reading this.

Instead you guys try to minimize and attack each other, the back and forth is stomach turning and you're just as guilty as Noel. He says something you snap back, you say something he snaps back, and then it just spirals into nonsense turning everyone off.

This is why I got involved, because 1. I recognize the importance of the space, the fact everyone is looking to push out farther and more accurately, and 2. to bring some order to this mess you, "the manufacturers" have created with your in-fighting. I did not agree to do this so I can stand in the middle and raise one hand over the head of the other declaring a winner. I am a user, I am an enthusiast -- who happens to have a vehicle called Sniper's Hide that affords me a certain latitude to do things like this. At the end of the day, your success is our success as the end user, not sure what part of that you don't understand.

Take a look, note the interest and then see how both you guys are doing your best to do derail this which not only hurts you, but all of us as fans.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

My eyes are wide open and do you know what I see?
1. Carlson starts with his slander leaving me no option but to react to it. It is the lesser of two evils.
2. You allow this slander to continue unabated, until I react, then you address us as though I started it. Why is this?
3. Show me one instance, just one, where I started the slander and insults.
4. Do you expect me to be a wuss and just smile and take it when Carlson spreads his lies and untruths?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerald,

I have allowed you to express your side of this up until this point, because I offered you a 3rd party vehicle to shut Noel up... <span style="color: #FF0000">you declined. </span>

Nothing you have said has anything to do with the topic of this post, and your edited post was nothing more than you calling Noel out in an attempt to do to him exactly what you say he has done to you. <span style="color: #FF0000">Two wrongs don't make it right,</span> 's far as I read your response was not directed at something Noel said to you or about you. and to be sure I removed Noel's comment to Anthony.

This is nothing new, you guys have been going at this for too long unchecked, and <span style="color: #FF0000">everybody not Noel or Gerald can clearly see that,</span> and are frankly tired of it. I spoke to Noel and specifically told him to be leave it alone.

You feel you were slandered, great get a lawyer and go to town, but I think you'll find you give as good as you get, and at some point someone needs to stand in the middle and tell both of you to shut up!

My understanding is 3 times a test similar to this has failed to launch, well here I am doing it... you chose to decline MY offer because of your personal hate and distrust of Noel, well I am not Noel. And trust me when I say, this is the first of many, if that means I get a 4th party to buy bullets off you to use, well we'll do that, but as I said, you're better off letting the performance speak rather than sitting there on the other side of the computer spouting and pouting which isn't going to help anyone, especially you.

Best of luck, my door is open and understand I am not Noel, nor am I here to declare a winner in the war of Noel vs Gerald. Instead I am going send rounds downrange and produce the results, with you or without you. As you can see we filled our day with plenty of test bullets, trust me when I say, next time I will fill 2 days, and when I do it again after that I will fill 3 days worth, because I don't compromise my principles simply to gain a few ounces of favor with one or two of you.

Talk to you after the test...

 

[Extremist458]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lowlight,

The 232s will do great in your factory rifle, thank you. When it works out this spring, I will bring the 267s, 309's and 322/324 (if they are done). I would also like you to know I am doing this on my own, because I want to. Sorry I can't help you out this time (no bullets, rifle, and am accounted for elsewhere at that time). Thanks.

P.S. I'll be at shot from open to close, so I'm sure we'll catch up sometime.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

cavemanmoore,

I was wrong. My appologizies. I didn't expect it would have issues becaue I drove it as fast as I could and didn't have any issues at all (in a 7.5 twist). With the faster twist and speed it didn't work, and I found out the speed was a limiting factor in the higher velocity rifles, which was not an issue when the bullet was made. Reports from the customers, and from personal use, were all excellent. Still, I was wrong, and I am sorry. No one's perfect.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cavemanmoore,

I was wrong. My appologizies. I didn't expect it would have issues becaue I drove it as fast as I could and didn't have any issues at all (in a 7.5 twist). With the faster twist and speed it didn't work, and I found out the speed was a limiting factor in the higher velocity rifles, which was not an issue when the bullet was made. Reports from the customers, and from personal use, were all excellent. Still, I was wrong, and I am sorry. No one's perfect. </div></div>

No need to apologize. I found Noel's comment to be extra petty, so I posted. I gave up trying to figure out what any of the three of you actually said years ago. (Yes, literally years). Having said that, and as an ELR fan, I do think it's a shame there won't be more GS bullets there this weekend.

-Chris

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Chris,

Perhaps the best course to take, if you have lost interest in discerning the substance of claims, is to either disqualify yourself from comment... or pay attention to the demonstration results.

... It just seems like a common sense approach to the circumstances that a prudent person would demand.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight,

The 232s will do great in your factory rifle, thank you. When it works out this spring, I will bring the 267s, 309's and 322/324 (if they are done). I would also like you to know I am doing this on my own, because I want to. Sorry I can't help you out this time (no bullets, rifle, and am accounted for elsewhere at that time). Thanks.

P.S. I'll be at shot from open to close, so I'm sure we'll catch up sometime.</div></div>

Look forward to meeting you, if you want to find me as the guys at AI or NF or you can stop by Mile High Shooting and drop them a message where to find you, I'll be at Shot most of the week. I can probably be found hanging around GAP as well.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chris,

Perhaps the best course to take, if you have lost interest in discerning the substance of claims, is to either disqualify yourself from comment... or pay attention to the demonstration results.

... It just seems like a common sense approach to the circumstances that a prudent person would demand. </div></div>

Noel,

I'll opt to pay close attention to the results.

Good luck this weekend,
-Chris

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thankyou Chris.

 

[goober]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My eyes are wide open and do you know what I see?
1. Carlson starts with his slander leaving me no option but to react to it. It is the lesser of two evils.
2. You allow this slander to continue unabated, until I react, then you address us as though I started it. Why is this?
3. Show me one instance, just one, where I started the slander and insults.
4. Do you expect me to be a wuss and just smile and take it when Carlson spreads his lies and untruths? </div></div>

Simple old saying Gerard "put up or shut up" .If you put up it usually shuts the other up but you choose not to??

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Usually. Which is why I choose not to in this instance. Usually does not work.

 

[treebasher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My eyes are wide open and do you know what I see?
1. Carlson starts with his slander leaving me no option but to react to it. It is the lesser of two evils.
2. You allow this slander to continue unabated, until I react, then you address us as though I started it. Why is this?
3. Show me one instance, just one, where I started the slander and insults.
4. Do you expect me to be a wuss and just smile and take it when Carlson spreads his lies and untruths?</div></div>

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder[1] in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to egocentrism.

Symptoms of this disorder include, but are not limited to:

Reacts to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
May take advantage of others to reach his or her own goal
Tend to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagines unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Easily becomes jealous
Lacks empathy and disregards the feelings of others
Obsessed with oneself
Mainly pursues selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Are easily hurt and rejected
set unreal goals
want "the best" of everything
Appear as tough-minded or unemotional [3]

Individuals believe that Narcissistic personality disorder seems like the the person suffering has high confidence and a strong self-esteem, however this is not the same, as once suffering from the disease starts to highly think of themselves and they put themselves on a pedestal. To conclude, people that tend to have high self confidence and self esteem don't value themselves over others. Also the individual suffering cannot handle criticism and to make themselves feel better they react with rage or contempt and try to make the person feel small, to make themselves feel better. [5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I have the Predator Solids from Mike@ SW Ammo loaded and ready to roll...

So we have a nice mix,

<span style="font-style: italic">I would ignore the distractions at this point. </span>

 

[goober]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: treebasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My eyes are wide open and do you know what I see?
1. Carlson starts with his slander leaving me no option but to react to it. It is the lesser of two evils.
2. You allow this slander to continue unabated, until I react, then you address us as though I started it. Why is this?
3. Show me one instance, just one, where I started the slander and insults.
4. Do you expect me to be a wuss and just smile and take it when Carlson spreads his lies and untruths?</div></div>

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder[1] in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to egocentrism.

Symptoms of this disorder include, but are not limited to:

Reacts to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
May take advantage of others to reach his or her own goal
Tend to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagines unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Easily becomes jealous
Lacks empathy and disregards the feelings of others
Obsessed with oneself
Mainly pursues selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Are easily hurt and rejected
set unreal goals
want "the best" of everything
Appear as tough-minded or unemotional [3]

Individuals believe that Narcissistic personality disorder seems like the the person suffering has high confidence and a strong self-esteem, however this is not the same, as once suffering from the disease starts to highly think of themselves and they put themselves on a pedestal. To conclude, people that tend to have high self confidence and self esteem don't value themselves over others. Also the individual suffering cannot handle criticism and to make themselves feel better they react with rage or contempt and try to make the person feel small, to make themselves feel better. [5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
</div></div>OMG I discovered myself

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Set-up began at 6:00 this morning. Within a couple of hours it was discovered that airport security had misplaced a critical connector for the audio system, and off to Radio Shack three of the officiators went.

Test set-up resumed, and the first projectile flew about 30 minutes ago. We are still on the first entrant... the 300 grain SMK.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I cant wait to see the Data on this. !!!! Really Neat

 

[goober]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cant wait to see the Data on this. !!!! Really Neat </div></div>I dont know how my life got this sad but Im with you on this George-this this really exciting!

 

[RegularGuy]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I'd like to know more in regards to the Chrono system. Seems neat

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

We got all the rounds shot and properly recorded, the data needs to be interpreted but all rounds were captured at distance on 4 mics and at the muzzle.

We arrived on site at 6AM and pulled off the range a 4PM about an hour outside downtown Vegas so it's been a long day.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank and Cory

Thank you guys for your time and patience. Yesterday was a long day no doubt. The day before was not much shorter for me and my guys to set up the site for Saturday's installation and tear down.

The data will tell us what it tells us. I have some simple ideas for doing it better, faster, and more efficiently next time, if there is one. Overall, I think it went pretty well for a first effort. The learning curve was steeper than I wanted, but we got it done in the end.

Cory I will give you some proposed dates for an ELR clinic. I look forward to it.

JeffVN

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

A few shots from the weekend test

The rounds,

Chrongraphed and recorded at the shooter as well as downrange

Thanks to CoryT for bringing a host of Ashbury International 338s to shoot

Thanks to Cory, Dan, John, Lindsey, Roger, Noel, Josh and Jeff,

I definitely think the next stage should be an accuracy test, we need to shoot these on targets and record the results.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cant wait to see the Data on this. !!!! Really Neat </div></div>
Likewise- that looks like some really cool testing-

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Dan has an album on FB with a lot more images

Facebook Album

 

[Graham]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

...and the verdict is?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

"... the next stage should be an accuracy test."...

Absolutely, and SHOT would be an excellent time to coordinate the testing.

Thanks for being supportive of these events Frank. You have supplied the necessary momentum to move small arms innovation forward inspite of the institutional inertia.

Sniper's Hide is the "Go To" place for cutting edge publishing... and now testing.